The seperate drain tip is in the running for tip of the year! Thanks

Congrats on the new Excella!

We have had ours since Oct of last year and it's been a real workhorse for us.

We're going to do a remodel of our kitchen soon and will consider the drain tip you suggested and a cold water hook up.

Thanks!

The Miele's don't need a high loop. My current one(2006) and the one I purchased in 1996(which was still working like day one but I replaced due to new kitchen scheme) both drain directly through the floor and into the basement drain line, so you don't hear any water gurgling during drain periods. You are paying some for silence with these machines...why settle for any water noise at all?

Good luck with your machine.

You just need to loop up and then down for the drain?

I don't know about how others are installed but mine has no loop. the DW drain line goes down through the floor and under the floor there is a 2 or 3 inch diameter cooper drain pipe which then snakes its way to the main drain pipe. The end of DW drain hose is secured to this copper pipe. My DW is not next to the sink and the plumbing in the house seems to have been designed for this method of having a separate drain. All I know is I don't hear any water splashing or gurgling and the DW always holds the water in until it is ready to pump it out.

Jarrod, exactly. Why pay so much for one of these and then have it drain into the disposal or sink drain and hear all the water. I also don't have a loop. I believe if you have the pipe protrude 8" or so, there is no need for one. I double checked with my close friend who is a contractor before doing this just to be sure. I believe the drain line attached to the DW acts as the loop if the pipe sticks out of the floor around 8" or so.

Jarrod, what are you using these days for detergent. I've gone through those previous chats. I picked up Cascade Complete and Jet Dry. The Miele salt just arrived today. Any other I should try?

I asked our superintendent about "direct draining". He said he hadn't seen it done before but would ask the plumber. Is it documented anywhere in Miele's manual or installation instructions?

Could someone explain the cold water hook up. I thought the d/w is supposed to be hooked up to hot water. Our miele is hooked up, but the island doesn't have electricity to it yet, so we have yet to run it. Thanks

Cold water hook-up is necessary if you plan to run the China and Crystal cycle (on the Optima and I believe, on the Excella and La Perla models as well). That, and the energy savings, are the only reasons why it would be necessary. If you don't plan to run that cycle as intended (for delicate fine china or delicate crystal), then you might consider the hot water hook-up (slightly less energy savings, but shorter cycle times overall).

Could someone tell me the difference between all the different Mieles? I know about the panels and incognito features. My kitchen designer suggested the Optima G2470 SCVI and I looked into that one. Is this one ok. I need it fully integrated. My good friend has the Excella G2670SCVI. Should I switch? Thanks

Look at the programs or cycles offered for the Optima & the Excella, and decide what works for you. The Excella offers more programs than the Optima.

We have two Excellas, one hooked up to cold water, the other to hot. The cold water Excella runs the China & Crystal program, and the hot water Excella runs the Energy Saver program. Otherwise, they are identical. We also use the Sensor Wash program a lot.

Most DW ask you to supply water that is at least 120F, but the past and current Miele models will accept cold water and then heat it to the temp that is required. They don't use a lot of water. The length of the cycle will increase because of the time needed to heat the water. Once the DW goes through the cycle heating the water, the next time you use that cycle the run time displayed when you start the DW will include the time it took to heat the water, so the time displayed will always be very close to the actual time it is going to take. So - hot water fills means quicker run times and less energy the DW uses, although energy is still being used to heat the water someplace else, and a cold water fill means longer run time and more energy the DW is using to heat the amount of water in the DW. In most cycles only the main wash and final rinse will get heated, the rest of the fills are "cold". The Excella and Laperla have some cycles that heat the pre-rinse water as well.

As Cat_mom stated, you would want the cold water hook up if you wash a lot of china and crystal. I think the China Crystal cycle uses water between 98f and 118F. If you are connected to HOT water you may get water hotter than that into the DW. In my case my DW is far enough from the water heater so that it doesn't really get extreme hot water.

I don't think you can go wrong with having the Optima. It has a very good set of cycles. Normal, Pots and Pans, China/Crystal, Sani Wash,Short and rinse Hold.

The Excella and LaPerla have these and a few additional:

Heavy Soil - similar to pots and pans but the water is not as hot and the duration is shorter. Temp range up to 150F

Sensor Wash - adjusts the cycle time, temperature and number of water changes based on soil load.

Water Saver - uses less water takes less time and water than Normal and some of the other cycles.

Economy - uses a low temperature but still cleans normal soil. Takes less time than Normal and sometimes less than the sensor cycle but will also adjust the number of water changes based on soil level/detergent residue.

Energy Saver - you can use this if you can provide incoming water of at least 115F. The machine will not do any water heating in this cycle.

Plastics - cycle for plastics

Large Items Soiled - You remove the middle rack and wash in the bottom rack. This is for large items, cookie sheets..whatever...they go in the bottom rack. The racks permit glasses to be washed in the bottom as well.

Large Items Normal- same as large items soiled but uses a cooler water temp.

Glass wear- no rinse Aid. Used to rinse glasses without
RinseAid so that beer will still form a head.

Glass wear - no rinse Aid cold. washes in cold water. I don't understand this one.

Plate warming - this is called something else in other countries. I think hot pre-wash... Anyway the dishes are rinsed and the water is heated. I use it when I want to do a Hot Rinse/Hold.

Cheese - cycle for burned/stuck on cheese. Longer heated pre-wash and very hot (approx 170F) long wash.

Pasta - cycle for pasta and starch. Similar to Cheese with heated pre-wash but not as long.

I use the Sensor, Economy, and Cheese cycles the most.

The Optima, Excella, and Laperla use temperature ranges instead of set temperatures. The ranges are based on cycle and soil level encountered within that cycle. Temps can range from 98F to almost 170F.

The current Excella and LaPerla models are the only ones in the line that use load recognition to control the amount of water taken for each fill. The fill amount is determined by the number of dishes in the load. More dishes more water, less dishes not so much water. These two models also use alternating spray arms so that they don't need a lot of water at any one time.

we recently bought a La Perla. if you had to chose hot or cold, what would it be? we intend to wash wine stems fairly often.

You want to choose cold, to run China & Crystal for the wine stems. We do that a lot! Before we had our Miele Excella, we washed all our wine stems by hand. The Excella will safely take all our glasses, and we have oversized ones, plus do a much better job than by hand! They've never been so sparkley.

I agree with gizmonike that if you are going to run a lot of china and crystal the cold water hook up is the safest because it will let the DW heat the water only as hot as it needs to. All of the cycles will take longer. If you have a set up like me with the DW located a distance from the WH such that by the time the hot water gets to the machine it has almost stopped filling you could be OK. For me if the kitchen is being cleaned up or used at the same time the Dw is being started, then the DW will get hot water, but If no one is in the kitchen and the Dw is started it mostly gets cold water which it will need to deal with.

The LaPerla and Excella have about 3 program cycles that are designated as "glass care" which means that the Dw will keep the temperatures low while still cleaning. Now if you are running HOT HOT water to the Dw it won't heat it, but it cannot keep the temp low since you are providing the heat. The idea of low temps in the wash is to decrease the occurrence of etching.

What if you filled the DW with 110 deg water would that be low enough?

Does the Excella have two water inlets or just one? If just one, I think I understand everything that's been said - you have to choose whether to connect to hot water or cold. If two, can the hot water be shut down (say, under the sink) when you want to run a load of crystal or fine china?

FWIW, I had a lengthy discussion with my GC and plumber this morning, complete with me quoting people above word for word. The bottom line is that having the DW drain into it's own drain instead of into the garbage disposal IS a VERY big deal! It would cost me, in my situation, an additional $1200, just to have the drain and it's own vent run.

The issue with what is described above has something to do with the venting of gases and possibly also a water loss issue when the washer is running (check your manuals in the back and read about the venting issue).

I am not qualified to say precisely what is wrong with what the people above have described, but I'd love to hear a licensed plumber defend it with specifics, and state whether it is a big expensive undertaking or not. Also, before anyone does it themselves, I'd recommend giving the techs at Miele a call first to make sure you won't run into any issues.

As it is, I already plan to have a factory authorized Miele installer do the actual installation of my DW and wall oven (doubles the man. warranty) and will ask him his opinion at that time.

But, sad for me, I will have a gurgling drain b/c I dont' dare even ask my DH to come up with another $1200 for this expensive DW. Oh well, I can't have absolutely everything, right!

chipshot--I think I remember reading here, or speaking with someone who did something like that; either two hook-ups, or a hook-up with some sort of two way lever/valve in order to switch from hot or cold at will.

You can't switch the water source without replumbing--I asked that very question. I'd go with cold for the most flexibility & to allow the DW to do what it is designed to do. Yes, the programs run a bit longer, but not significantly. Today I'd connect both our Excellas to cold, but I don't want to spend the money to have a plumber make the switch (for the one that is currently connected to hot water).

How much longer do the various cycles typically take when the DW is connected only to cold water? If that isn't done, it seems some of the Excella's cycles are wasted, and that would be a shame.

By the way, what happens when the China & Crystal is run when the Excella is connected to hot water?

Not sure about this venting issue and water loss but here is what I think and I am no plumber or installer or Miele technical person - so this only what I think.

Water loss: In the back of the manual it tells you to snip the tip(there is a plastic tip near where the bottom wash arm is connected. This tip will prevent the water from running out of the machine if you have the drain line going through the floor. The manual describes this process as venting the DW.

In my previous model it already had a series of vent holes made into it. In this model you snip the end off. When my installer came he said that you sometimes didn't need to do it but if I found that the Dw was continually adding water while it was running it would mean that some of it was running out and I should do it. The Dw never added any water, but after a month I snipped it anyway since the manual suggested doing it.

GASES: The U trap found below all sinks is there to prevent sewer gas from coming back into the house. My line has a U but it is located in the basement, so this allows my machine to run the water down into the basement go through the U and then into line that is coming from the sink. the lines join together after a few feet. I have lived with this arrangement for over 13 years and have never had sewer gas in the house. Making the high loop may act as a U trap.

I think some plumbing codes state that you should have a (can't remember the name...vent). this vent sometimes opens into the counter top and I hear it makes a lot of noise. It is there to prevent sewer water from backing up into your DW. I don't know where the water would go I guess all over your counter and then on the floor ??? Miele Dws already have a non-return valve built into them so that drain water cannot run back into it.

Plumbing codes vary. My code doesn't care about this back up prevention but it does prohibit the use of plastic pipe so we must have copper or steel pipes which are sometimes nosier...so codes are gonna vary.

How much longer does it take:

Chipshot the time it takes to heat the water will vary based on in coming water temp and the cycle you select. In the summer my incoming water is 80-85F. In the fall and winter it is 38F.

Cycle temps are gonna vary.

Here is what I think the approximate ranges are:

The normal cycle is in a range up to 130.
Heavy soil, range up to 150F.
Cheese, Starch(Pasta), Sani, pots and pans to 170F
china/crystal 98F to 118F
Sensor wash up to 150F
Economy 113F to 115F

Energy saver - no heat you supply the hot water which must be at least 115F or the machine will stop.
Water saver - range up to 130F
Short range up to 104F
Plastics 118F
Large items 150F
Large items normal 130F.

Also the final rinse may be heated to 150F, or 130F or 170F(sani) depending on cycle.

I have noticed one or two times during the winter where the cycle count down time has stopped. It is in the middle of the wash so I think it may have delayed the time to heat the water..but I am not standing in front of the machine for the entire cycle either. The delay was about 5 minutes. This occurred in the sensor wash so I don't know what temperature the Dw was aiming for. It has also delayed in the final rinse..this was for 3 minutes.

I do have a hot connection so I may not be the best to answer actual wash times using completely unheated water.

Again...these are my thoughts based on research and are not to be taken as technical truth!!

Possibly the u-trap you have installed in your basement instead of under your sink makes this set-up work for you. My sinks are already plumbed for that u shape pipe to be in the cabinet under the sink. I remember something in the manual saying something about installing it to drain 8" or less above the vent, or something like that. I'm also not certain that that is the entire issue. For some reason my plumber was laughing that people think they can install it to drain into the sink drain. I really pushed, so I don't think it's just b/c he finds it so much easier to do it into the garbage disposal. Frankly, the Miele guy will be doing the install, so he probably didn't care if it would be a harder installation to drain it that way - his point was that it would be wrong - plain and simple. I had enough trouble trying to follow the specifics of the conversation between he and the GC (GC was arguing my point and kep insisting the plumber provide a $number for doing what I wanted) and clearly was not qualified to tell him he was wrong.

Hopefully, everyone above has a proper and safe install, including a silent one! I will have an install into the garbage disposal unless the Miele guy has a proper solution. (and if he does, I'll post about it here!)

Counters going in tomorrow, so I expect the DW to be installed fairly soon!

When I'd spoken with a woman at Miele before ours was installed, she indicated to me that the C&C cycle with cold water hook-up is really only necessary/useful for delicate fine china and/or crystal. Even my "good" dishes despite being labeled as fine china, are oven-microwave-freezer safe.

Also, my few pieces of delicate crystal (e.g Baccarat wedding champagne flutes) are never going to see the inside of a DW no matter how gentle the cycle. Our wash loads are mixed and there is no way I am going to place my delicate glassware in a DW with other things like plates, pots, etc. The DW itself, with a cold water hook-up, might not cause any harm, but the chances of breaking our glasses because they've been tapped with a dish or hit the side of a pot while unloading the DW are just too high.

We just finished a Sensor Wash cycle with some nasty plates and dishes that have been sitting for days. Been waiting for the Miele Salt to arrive. This is the first test since the previous run was Rinse and Hold so the DW could figure out my water hardness.

They are clean. Cleaner than they've ever been. They feel clean to the touch. I'm a happy camper and I'd say that it lived up to its hype. I used CC and Jet Dry. I'll have to go back through the Miele chats to see what the other detergents people were trying. Always up for some experimentation.

Smarge

There is a U trap in the sink cabinet for the sink, and there is also another one that is just for the DW but it is below the floor after the DW is connected to it.
Sometimes folks laugh when they havent heard or seen things done before but the way it is installed in my house is not new. In 1971 my parents had their 1971 KA Supberba Dw installed with a separate drain line and the installer(the plumbing company they bought it from) was the one that suggested doing it. That DW was designed to keep the water in so there was no problem with it running out and no loop required. By the way that 1971 KA was still running fine when I sold the house in 2004 after my motherÂs death. Back then thatÂs when things were made to last. Then too they were made by Hobart who is commercial. Anyway your conditions and plumbing code may be completely different than mine so I wouldnÂt worry and instead keep enjoying the progress you are making with your kitchen! I know itÂs exciting to see something actually getting doneÂat last.

Jwebtx:

IÂm with cat_mom when it comes to washing really good china/crystal in my DW. I am a klutz when it comes to handling things and what I consider fine china and crystal came from my grandmother and her mother and I really donÂt think they were thinking about exposing anything to DW detergent in those days. I have put some Waterford pieces in there by themselves and they were OK but I generally donÂt do it. I put my everyday wine glasses in there and will use one of the glass care cycles and things turn out OK.

I opted for the hot water connection knowing that half of the time the water would be lukewarm anyway. I think I still get a quicker cycle time than trying to heat 38F water to 150F. If I wash temperature sensitive items I try to do them at night after there is no kitchen activityÂ.going to get cold water then. I like the suggestion of using the lever so you can choose to get hot or cold. Like that alot.

Chipshot:

What happens when the china & crystal is run connected to hot water? Well the hot water comes in, and if the temp exceeds the temp set in the DW it wonÂt bother to heat it, and it will blast your dishes with the water it has. Probably nothing will happen one time but part of the point of this cycle is to use lower water temperatures and run for a shorter time so the detergent doesnÂt get as much chance to react and work on the contents like it would with hotter water. Hmm.. I guess thatÂs what happens. Maybe I should try it with hot hot waterÂmaybe the machine refuses to runÂsince it certainly refuses to run if the water is less than 115F for the Energy Saver cycle, but I doubt it.

Stahlee re detergents and that thread:

I am still working through all of the detergent products I bought last year. I probably have another year to go. I use a different one each week and get good results..even with powdered Electra Sol with chlorine bleach. Two weeks ago I put more salt in. I havenÂt refilled with salt since July. I put Miele salt in. Previous to this it was full of Somat. The Dw thinks itÂs saltÂso I donÂt think it matters too much and I might continue to us Somat since I can just walk to the store and buy it. Whatever I have I - will use.

Cascade complete has enzymes and it should work fine and It is also in my detergent rotation. I am Currently using JetDry green apple rinse aid. I alternate that with Miele rinse aid. It all works but I donÂt think Jet dry turbo did any better with drying than regular Jet dry.

Stahlee - you just posted as I was completing mine so I missed the fact that you just made a run. Glad things looked good. I use the sensor cycle most of the time and it works very well.

Stahlee,

I'm a big fan of the Miele tabs and mostly use half tabs with great results.

Also, I just started used the "startch" program to wash pots with dried on brown rice residue. Works well! I'll need to try this program on my oatmeal pots.

The only thing that I think is missing from the Excella/LaPerla models is a dual water hookup...cold and hot. And, let the DW decided what to use based upon program. Life would be perfect in DW land then! ;)

"The only thing that I think is missing from the Excella/LaPerla models is a dual water hookup...cold and hot. And, let the DW decided what to use based upon program."

YES!!! And make it retrofitable.

YES! What a great idea! And they should also clearly describe a separate drain connection and what is required, instead of showing detailed pictures of an installation into a garbage disposal and only mentioning a separately draining option in passing in a section about venting requirement!

I'm having mine hooked up to cold to avoid cloudy glasses which can occur from very hot and very long cycles. It's not just because of the fine crystal, but the everyday glassware too.

I'm having mine hooked up to cold to avoid cloudy glasses which can occur from very hot and very long cycles. It's not just because of the fine crystal, but the everyday glassware too.

Isn't this only a concern with detergents that use harsh chemicals like chlorine? I wouldn't imagine that modern, enzyme based detergents could possibly etch glass.

I have used Trader Joe's DW detergent for years, as well as the Jet Dry required by my current home's Bosch. Within 2 years, all my drinking glasses were permanently etched.

We have a whole house softener due to extremely hard water conditions in our town.

In short, DW detergents are designed to operate in warm temps as well as slightly hard water.

I already knew that with a whole house softener, I needed to use much less detergent for everything from clothing detergent to DW detergent, so I wasn't over-using detergent which can contribute greatly to the problem.

The difference was simply that my Bosch ran longer and used hotter water, especially at the end of the cycle to promote the condesation dry feature (there is no heating coil in the Bosch I have and the water evaporates quickly from the extremely hot dishes and glassware.)

I had to throw out all my glassware that had been run through the DW. Before resorting to that I had tried multiple boxes of "Glass Magic", soaking the glasses overnight in vinegar and then lemon juice - no change in cloudiness. I tried washing just the glassware leaving a cup of vinegar in the bottom rack. Nothing was removing the film, which meant they were permanently etched.

My glasses were truly embarassing and I bought some green colored drinking glasses to use for guests as I researched what on earth had happened to my glasses and what to do to get them clean looking!

So, in the hope of avoiding this in my new home, I am having my DW connected using cold water AND I am by-passing the whole house softener and sending our very hard water to the Excella and will let the Excella bring the water hardness to the level it detects it needs with the built-in softening system. Apparently it does not soften the water to zero hardness, which my house unit does, but rather will soften the water to about 5 grains, which is optimal for DW detergents.

Too much info, I know. (And my GC and plumber think I am completely whacko!)

Smarge

I think part of the etching issue is due to the combination of soft hot water and detergent so this is a great idea having the Dw bypass the softener using cold water and letting the DW take care of it. I think Sshrivastava did the same thing. Great Idea!

Enzymes need something to work on which is one reason we are advised not to pre-rinse. If enyzmes don't find food and dirt, that leaves your dishes to work on. Using the sensor programs help because they monitor the soil level and reduce temperatures and wash times for low soil.

Cascade, and ElectraSol(non powder formulations) are adding ingredients to their detergents to help minimize etching. P&G and Reckitt Benckiser use different formulas but both are intended to retard etching...so you might try these detergents.

I use Miele tabs also. They are more expensive than detergents you buy at the store, but as Mando said you can break them apart and use 1/2 tab. The tabs dissolve well and are effective in cool water(104F) so when I use one of the low temp range cycles it gets the Miele tab. Good cleaning and a nice shine.

The tabs have a perforation so they can be broken. My concern about most tabs and paks is that you cannot control the dosage, but being able to break these apart gives you more control.

Three plumbing subjects were mentioned and I thought I'd try to explain them with my limited plumbing knowledge.

1) The "U" trap. Yes, this maintains a water seal so gases don't enter your kitchen. Sinks and toilets all have these.

2) Venting- all drains should be vented to the roof, And the U trap should be between the drain and the vent- that is, Drain,trap, vent up and liquid down. Vents help water drain. Think about pouring milk from a can and how much easier it pours if you poke an extra hole in the top on the opposite side. Because of the U trap, vents allow air into the pipe after the trap. Also, without a vent, sewer gas would come up from the main and it needs to escape to the roof. I imagine it could even bubble up past the U trap if it didn't have an escape vent.

The DW drain through the floor without a vent works because, it has it's own u-trap, but it shares the vent of the kitchen sink. At least that's what Jerrod described on his/her post at 20:32. So gas coming up the line would hit the dishwasher u-trap and just continue up his/her sink drain pipe to the vent- So I don't see why someone else could not do this.

3) Non-return valve for DW. drain. That would keep the water from your kitchen sink from draining into your DW. Sink drains alone don't need them because they are Vented, and any water from another source would actually try to go up the vent- just like gas.(Some of us have seen water from a drain back up into a sink because of a clog somewhere)
That's probably what the air gap thing that's on some counter-tops does. It acts as a vent for the water that's siphoned between the DW and the sink or garbage disposal. If something is clogged in the sink drain, I suppose water would come out of it. It would not be needed in Jerrod's set up.

Outside faucets sometimes have one way valves. You should never leave the end of a hose in water, because it's possible that if someone turns water on in the house it will actually draw the dirty water up from the hose and into the house water.

smarge's mention of Trader Joe's detergent prompted me to do some Googling and I found an interesting summary of the results of some of Consumer Report's testing (link below, article is undated to I don't know how up-to-date the results are). Some interesting exceprts:

· House brands are standouts. The Trader Joe's powder and America's Choice powder store brands are excellent, and one of our four CR Best Buys comes from Costco. All of these products contain enzymes.

· "Green" products can get dishes clean. Most dishwasher detergents contain phosphates, which enhance cleaning ability. Phosphates also have a reputation for being environmentally harmful because they promote the growth of algae. But four enzyme-containing, phosphate-free detergents--Ecover tablets and powder; Trader Joe's powder; and Method Dish Cubes tablets--were very good to excellent in overall quality.

· Taking care. Some of the detergents were harsh on silver utensils. Play it safe by washing silver by hand. Do the same for crystal and any glassware of sentimental importance, since etching can occur with repeated use and leave a cloudy haze on the glass.

So apparently, even a phosphate free, enzyme based detergent can etch glass. Surprising... to me at least!

Jarrod, I'm out of town for the weekend and was able to pick up the Miele tabs and Rinse Aid. I'm not able to pick of any of this up around where I live, so I was happy to find it today.

Guess I'll need to wait until the Jet Dry is used up, but I'll be giving the tabs a try. Do you find you need to use the full tabs or should I be good with half?

Stahlee

I use 1 full tab because I usually do very full dirty loads. I have used ½ tab on what I consider normal soil and it worked fine so I adjust the amount of tab to the soil load, just like I would do if I was using powder. You should experiment using it with different types of loads you have.

Weve mentioned the China/Crystal cycle, cycle times with hot hook ups vs cold. So last Thursday I decided to wash some vases and glass items and I used the China/Crystal cycle. A few of the vases had flowers in them and were stained from the water they contained and some of them were just gummy. Even though I have a hot water connection I tried to measure the incoming water temperature for each fill. Since the DW is connected to the hot water after the sink I ran a bit of water from the sink hot tap into a glass after the DW finished filling and measured it that way

When I selected the cycle the DW displayed an estimated duration of 1 hour 37 minutes. I thought that was long for this cycle. I used ½ Miele tab. The pre-rinse ran for about 7 minutes and then the water change between the pre-rinse and wash was skipped and the DW continued into the wash using the same water, and it released the tab. After washing 11 minutes the estimated time remaining decreased by 34 minutes and the wash continued for another 10 minutes before ending.
Then I remembered the last time I used this cycle. It was a load consisting of china after a dinner party, cooking utensils and everyday dishes- but no crystal. It was a normal very dirty load the only difference was the china I used for the dinner so that may explain the initial 1 hour 37 minute estimate.

The incoming water temp for the first fill measured at 62F, the first after rinse 70F, and the temp for the final rinse was 93F. I also measured the incoming cold water which was 46F. I am going to measure the water again when I use the regular sensor cycle because the entire duration and span between fills should be longer so I expect the water temps to be lower and the DW temperature ranges to be higher.

The Miele tabs work great especially in cool water and short washes and if you like them you can order online from Miele. If you cant get them Cascade and Electrasol work fine but I did have a problem with Seventh generation. I could never figure out the cause. The dishes were clean but were covered with grit kind of like un-dissolved detergent. Dont know if this was caused by low water temps, low water fills or what. I think others have used this brand successfully so maybe it just doesnt work well for me. I also used Electra sol tabs with the Red Powerball this week. I used it twice with Cacade plastic booster in the prewash and one time without. Both times with the plastic booster caused the DW to add an extra after rinse so perhaps this combo created extra suds .. the plastic looked good though.

Alexr

Thanks for explaining the plumbing hook ups. I can describe the piping I see but that's it.

smarge -- very smart approach. We, too, have whole house softener. When the glasses became cloudy and streaky I called Miele which sent a sheet about filming vs etching. The filming comes off with the acids you used; etching does not.

It appears to come from the soft water and detergent, as you say.

We also have cold water hookup. I have Incognito, predecessor of Excella.

The use of 1/2 Miele tab -- I use a whole one only when there are heavy soil pots and pans and few if any glasses -- has eliminated any further etching.

I found it useful to run very small loads about once a week with no detergent at all in order to remove anything residual from the machine. The first time I did this, with a tiny top solo load, I was surprised at how much there must have been in the machine because things came out very clean, including the tub.

Never thought of bypassing the softener. The guys at Miele walked me through disabling the softener.

But the Miele tabs have made the difference. I order them through ABT along with the vacuum bags. They aren't discounted but the shipping is free and there is no tax.

Just out of curiosity--would using a full tab vs. 1/2 tab make any difference with regards to the possibility of etching occuring? I ask because we recently had a wine glass (normal glass, not crystal) that was placed in the bottom rack as we usually do (they're big glasses!) come out cloudy. There's a chance I had run a Pots and Pans cycle for that load, but can't be sure. I do so once in a rare while. I don't know if it's filming or etching on the glass (Also, how to remove if it is filming? I'm sure I downloaded the info at one point , but if anyone has that info handy....).

Try soaking the glass in straight vinegar overnight. Vinegar won't hurt your glass, and if it removes the cloudiness, then you have a "film" from hard water deposits that can be resolved by using a product called "Glass Magic" which costs about $5 for a small box and is usually found in a grocery store near the powdered DW detergents. Or, you can put your filmed glasses in the dw and run a short load after putting a mug of vinegar upright in the bottom rack.

If it remains cloudy you have an etched glass and can toss it. Etching is caused by very hot cycles and too much detergent. It occurs over time and you can see it coming when your glasses have a sort of a rainbowy type of film on them a few washes before the cloudiness starts to appear.

You can try to control this by using less hot cycles for glasses and a tablespoon or less of detergent; less particularly if you have a water softener.

Good luck, and I hope you have film instead of etching!

I'll try the vinegar soaking trick and see if that works. If I wanted to try putting a mug of vinegar upright on the bottom rack, would I also use detergent? With other dishes/glasses in the DW, too?

I tend to use Normal cycle for all my wash loads (Optima DW) or as I mentioned, very rarely a P&P cycle. We use the Miele tabs (full tabs) with our loads.

I hadn't seen the rainbowy type film on the glasses (we did have it on one dish early on, and we might have still been using CC powder at that time).

Our machine has the built in softener so wouldn't hard water deposits be unlikely?

I think the rinse aid light was on when I opened the DW (after the cylce that produced the film on that glass). Could too little rinse aid cause that sort of film?

It seems that "green" products such as Seventh Generation, Bi-O-Kleen, Ecover, etc., all contain an ingredient that settles onto your dishes. I have used both Bi-O-Kleen and Ecover, and have witnessed such a residue not only on my dishes but also on the interior of the dishwasher. After switching back to Cascade, the problem disappeared.

Great thread! I thought I'd add another thought about the cold water hook up. If you hook the dw up to cold water, you can take a shower and not worry about running out of hot water or about getting a cold blast as the dw fills up.

While not a plumber, I have reviewed the International Plumbing Code and explanatory material on venting. The venting rules are somewhat complex for a subject area that is seemingly so simple.

The significant requirement is that the vent to the roof connect to the drain pipe above the level of the trap weir (think normal water level in the trap). There are other rules for how and where vent pipes can merge, how many are needed for various configurations of multiple sinks, pipe diameter, etc.

If there is a trap in the cabinet for the sink and a trap in the basement for the DW, then the vent pipes have to be separate ---- for some height. I believe that they can join some distance above the sink trap weir level. If both traps were in the basement next to each other, the venting should be somewhat easier to make common.

Without understanding a particular household configuration, along with any local variations on the plumbing code, evaluating the reasonableness of the $1200 estimate would be difficult.

kas

OK who has hooked up there Miele Excella to cold water? and why? do you feel it works just as well?

Hooking up to cold water is discussed quite a bit in the top half of this thread. A variety of reasons were listed, including being easier on china and glassware, with the drawback of making the cycles last a bit longer.

Thanks I was trying to convince my DW that cold might be good so looking for any new opinions. Sorry for bringing back old stories.

No complaints here for bringing this thread back up, it was good. I'm biased since I started it though. :-)

Thought I would give an update on the Excella. I did my toughest load last night, three casserole dishes with baked on cheese and pasta with an assortment of plates with cheese and dried sauces. Used the cheese setting and everything came out perfect. Amazing!

Sorry, I get excited when I get what I paid for. ;-)

Gizmonike,

Have you noticed any difference in the drying time or thoroughness between your hot and cold hooked up units? Does the cold water help the convective drying? Or is there no difference between your two set-ups?

Jeff