I replaced it with a Miele Optima, which was much quieter, but which does not clean the dishes. After multiple phone calls to Miele and 2 service visits (search for ''Miele dishwashers'' if you want to find that tale of woe), it still doesn't clean the dishes but etches them quite thoroughly. I can't safely use it anymore for dishes, just pots & pans. The paper plate deal has gotten really old.

I'm trying to find out if Miele will honor their 90-day performance guarantee or not. Either way, I need a new dishwasher. It has to actually CLEAN the dishes (radical concept there), be QUIET, not ETCH anything, and hold things like mixing bowls.

No more KA. Never again on the Miele. I looked at Bosch and Asko before buying the Miele, and they wouldn't hold my bowls. I know a couple of people here love their Electrolux DW's, but I've also seen a number of really bad reviews online.

Any suggestions?

A couple of things I would ask. First of all, how big are these mixing bowls of yours? Any chance that they are somehow blocking an arm?

As for the etching, my understanding is that etching is caused by undisolved particulates in the dishwashing detergent. They do not go into solution because the water is hard or too much detergent is used.

But they are two separate problems. Food not being removed sounds like either, too low of a washing temp, too low of a spray pressure, inability to adequately drain the machine, a failed turbidity sensor, a failed or marginal pump, or a blocked water passage on either the intake or the pump exhaust.

But the thing is, I do not trust the Miele dealer you are dealing with. Anyone who would leave crap out on their display floor and be unwilling to answer a simple question about opening and closing the door is not to be trusted around an expensive appliance.

In any case, I have a pretty big mixing bowl myself and it fits like cake into my Bosch. Did you adjust the top rack when you did your tests?

Best of luck and sorry about the trouble you have been having.

We have been around and around and around with all of the issues you raised (and many others). I have talked with at least a dozen Miele tech support people and had 2 service visits. None of them can agree on the problem(s) or how to fix it. The dealer has only been involved since the purchase to call Miele service on my behalf when I couldn't get anywhere with them. Therefore, after 2 1/2 months of a non-functioning DW, I'm throwing in the towel and it's time for a new one.

Still looking for alternative suggestions...

I've spend 2 1/2 months trying to resolve the problems associated with this DW. I've already posted lengthy descriptions of all the problems, and I'm tired of beating this dead horse.

I'm asking for recommendations on a NEW dishwasher at this point.

Thank you for your help.

Look, you have a high set of demands going on here. Super quiet and super cleaning. It sounds to me like you need a Miele.

Barring that, check out Bosch again, but put the top rack in a spot where your mixing bowls will fit. And if THAT won't work then take the GD top tray completely out of the machine and put the spray head on the top rack feed port. (Yes, it comes with the Bosch dishwashers).

I can wash my 8 gallon brew pots in my Bosch with the top rack out. If your mixing bowl is bigger than my brewpot I will send you a free Milky Way and a six pack.

Hard to recommend one as you already tried KA and that doesn't work, the opposite end of the spectrum is Miele and that doesn't work...Bosch doesn't fit your needs because of the bowl design...

I'm afraid you don't have much left. You should try one of the Korean brands. Not a fan of them myself but perhaps they will work out for you better.
However, you might have the same problem as before with the Miele...I would force them to change it out to another one and if that doesn't work then it's something to do with your plumbing or your water that affects the Miele but not the KA and then you can try to find a KA model or another brand that is similar in design but quieter.

I know the NA and Korean models have a different design to the Euro models.

LIP2000

At this point, I would be talking to Miele about a replacement, since they can not seem to get your current one working. That and Miele DW's seem to have the fewest complaints of any DW here. I think you got one that may have been damaged during shipping and/or poor installation.

Gary

Gini, I will definitely look at that GE Profile DW. I've also been looking at the GE Profile induction range.

Gary, I don't have hard water. The Miele salt dispenser is supposed to adjust for that anyway. Miele techs can't agree on whether the salt dispenser should be disabled entirely (they haven't agreed on anything else either).

Gary

Lip, the Optima also has a water hardness setting, which has been set correctly.

And I've already been waiting for 2 months for Miele, and it's become painfully clear that they can't fix this beast. With each visit, my dishes have gone from dirty, to dirtier, to dirty and etched, to irrevocably damaged. I finally realized a few days ago that if I waited any longer, 2 things were going to happen...the 90-day guarantee was going to expire, and I wouldn't have any dishes left. I looked at some dish sets today and nearly fell over when I saw the prices.

So I don't know what to do.
Try KA again?
GE Profile? (There aren't any around here so I'll have to order one sight unseen)
Electrolux? (those bad reviews make me nervous)
Bosch? (will this be any better than the Miele, and I already know it won't hold everything I'd like)

I'm so disappointed. I really liked the Miele's silverware tray and controls, it held my stuff, and it was reasonably quiet, but it just didn't get the job done.

You may have had good service from Miele Canada, but I'm in the same boat as warmfridge. Miele service here is utterly useless. Their service is totally dependent on where you live in Canada.

If anyone is thinking of writing to Miele Germany, don't bother. You will simply receive a very polite, very short PFO letter. It will arrive on very nice stationary though!

I've used the Miele 1-800 number many times and have found it to be slightly better then useless. *IF* you're willing to wait the 20 to 45+ minutes on hold to talk to anyone.

I'm not saying you haven't had good service from Miele, but I'm just saying that Miele service in "Canada" isn't what you describe. The people at Miele who I've talked suggest that if you live in Vancouver or GTA, you're in luck. Otherwise service is spotty at best.

I've had many problems with my washer and dryer and the best Miele can come up with is e-mailing me the factory service manaul pages that relate to the problem and suggest I fix it myself. Where I live, Miele DOES NOT HAVE A WORKING WARRANTY.

I really can't describe how poorly Miele treated me as a customer until I wrote a letter to Miele Germany, Miele Canada, and my retailer. All of my problems, including a DOA dryer, were completely blown off by Miele phone support.

When the Miele rep was here he said that they are in the final stages of a total business philosophy rework and that there have been some serious bumps in the transition. Hence the poor service I received and the spotty service that I read about here and on other appliance related boards. In my case, Miele can only get better from here!

As a quick example of what I've gone through, you mentioned the Miele delivery guys, here's an excerpt of my letter to Miele regarding their delivery guys:

We are also told to expect a call from the delivery company on Friday morning with a 3-hour delivery window. Lovely!

On Thursday July 30th the delivery company leaves a message on our machine stating that our washer and dryer are scheduled for delivery the next day and that we will receive a call Friday morning with a 3-hour delivery window.

Friday July 31st promises to be an interesting day. Laundry is knee-deep from 2 weeks of not having a working washer and dryer. I wake up early and put on my last clean pair of socks. If our machines don’t show up today, I will be sockless tomorrow.

Up before 7AM and things are already beginning to go wrong! The stacking kit that Purolator was to deliver on Wednesday or Thursday is still not here.

By 10AM we haven’t received a call with our "3-hour delivery window" for the washer and dryer. I call Miele to inquire about the delivery of ANY of our items today. Up to now Miele service has been somewhat "shaky" at best, but here, on this phone call, it implodes. The CSR this time is pleasant, but not very helpful. She tells me that my washer and dryer are scheduled for today, but the stacking kit will not arrive until Wednesday or Thursday of the FOLLOWING week. While on the phone, knee deep in laundry, I am also told that I cannot stack and use my washer and dryer without the stacking kit. I’m looking at a MINIMUM of 5 days without socks! During that 5+ day period I will also run out of underwear, sweaters, pants, and the shirts that I have to wear to work. I am not terribly happy at this point. I ask for the Purolator shipment tracking number so I can monitor the expected 11+ day journey the stacking kit is going to make. The CSR does not have the tracking number, but will call the warehouse, get it, and call me back. While I wait for her return call, I wonder: If the CSR doesn’t have the tracking information, how can she estimate the delivery date? Is she picking dates out of the air? Is "Wednesday or Thursday" a "standard response"? If not THIS "Wednesday or Thursday," maybe NEXT "Wednesday or Thursday." Thirty minutes later she calls back (no "attempt" here, she actually does!) with the tracking number. I am somewhat impressed; Miele has promised something and actually delivered!

Somewhere around 11AM the delivery company calls. Read carefully, it starts to get good here. You would expect this to be my 3-hour delivery window (I sure did!), but you would be wrong. No, this call was to inform me that the delivery truck was nearby. But lost. The driver was looking for some suggestions on how to find my house. Apparently Miele does not afford its delivery drivers maps. I give the driver some directions and roughly 30 minutes later the truck with our washer and dryer pulls up in front of our house. Success! Two men jump out of the truck and make quick, but sweaty, work of moving the washer first and then dryer into the basement. As soon as the dryer in downstairs, the "lead" delivery guy asks to use my washroom. No problem, upstairs – first door on the right. He urinates and promptly exits the bathroom WITHOUT WASHING HIS HANDS and re-joins the other delivery guy and myself downstairs. Lovely. The delivery guys offer to set up the washer and dryer for me. I tell them that Miele doesn’t expect the stacking kit to arrive for 5-6 days. They decide that they would probably not be able to wait that long. I agree and the delivery guys decide to leave the machines as-is. The lead delivery guy (non-hand washer) congratulates me on the purchase and offers to shake my hand. I decline, disgusted.

After the delivery guys leave, I punch the stacking kit’s tracking number into Purolator’s website and, lo and behold, the package is listed as "On vehicle for delivery." Interesting. Apparently Miele thinks it will take 5-6 days to drive roughly 40 city blocks from the Purolator depot to our house. I’m sure that traffic is bad in Germany, but I doubt it is that bad. Canada, with less than half the population and 28 times the total land area has far lower population density and, I suspect, fewer traffic issues. A few minutes later, the Purolator truck pulls up in front of my house and the driver drops off a large box with "Miele" in bold letters on the side. Could this be the stacking kit that will not arrive for another 5-6 days? Yes! Inside the box is another box, and inside that box is a WTV 414 stacking kit! Wow! It must be magic, it can travel through time! It is, at once, 1-2 days late AND 5-6 days early!

Just a small portion of the single worst consumer experience my fiancee and I have ever had!

Sorry, ghetterly, but if that's the worst experience you've ever had, you've had it pretty good. I'll agree that the communication could have been better but you had all the appliances delivered on the day promised, including the stacking kit early.

There are many people on this forum who have been expecting delivery on a given day only to discover the item is actually backordered and won't be delivered for weeks or months. Someone had the truck crash with all their appliances on the way to their house. People have received the wrong appliance or a severely damanaged appliance. So IMHO, as things go, your issue is really minor.

Part of the problem with any dishwasher is that the inside of the cabinet often transmits the sound through the adjoining cabinets so you get sound transfer. In some cases, you can get some sympathetic vibration from the cabinetry or things stored in cabinets. The acoustic tile will absorb a lot of this.

Kitchenaid lists the washer as 41dBA on the "Normal" wash cycle.

I've never measured the washer when it's running, as it is so quiet as to be not noticable - but, I can do that as I have a sound pressure level meter.

The whole ordeal continued for months without a working pair of machines. Even now, 9 months later, the dryer doesn't work quite right. We have basically given up on Miele service and support and are trying to find a replacement set of machines.

I measured my DW's from 2 ft away near the top of the DW. My old KA was 65-76 dbs, and the Miele was 53-55 dbs. I would be interested to learn what your new KA measures.

If you have product problems, thats another story but by the amount of upset that the shipping caused you, I can imagine you stress out a little too easy.

Again, all I can offer is my experience...so far with Miele I have been more than satisfied...I was actually hounded by their customer service on the phone to make sure I did not want one of their reps to come to my house to solve a minor issue I had...

No company is perfect and Im sure Miele screw up from time to time...however, its so far so good with me...

Good luck to you!

Do you understand how a sound pressure level meter works and how to use it? There should be two scales on it an "A" scale and a "C" scale. The "A" scale is 500Hz to 10,000Hz and corresponds to the human ear's most sensitive range. The "C" scale is from 32Hz to 20,000Hz.

Appliance manufacturers generally use the "A" scale (noted as dBA on a spec sheet) as that is the most sensitive range for hearing.

You cannot actually measure the SPL of the dishwasher itself as it is not in an anechoic chamber. What you are really measuring is the difference between the ambient sound level and the sound level with the dishwasher turned on - or the amount of additional "noise" generated by the dishwasher.

I measured my KA last night and did a couple of different measurements. In the "A" mode and slow response, the ambient level was 51dB as the refridgerator was on and the washer and dryer were being used in the laundry room next to the kitchen. With the dishwasher turned on, and in the middle of its normal wash cycle, the room level changed from 51dB to 57dB - meaning the dishwasher added 6dB to the ambient sound level measured from 500Hz to 10,000Hz.

I then changed the meter to the "C" mode and fast response (slow averages over time on my meter). In the "C" mode, the ambient level with the dishwasher off was 60 dB - I think mostly attributable to the clothes dryer in the next room and the low frequency from the drum turning.

However, the interesting part was that with the dishwasher on, and the meter on "fast" to track short events, the sound level pulsed from 67 to 68dB. When watching the meter and listening to the dishwasher, the higher reading corresponded to the water hitting the door as the sprayer turned.

You'll notice that the diswasher added 1-2dB more noise when measured in the "C" mode compared to the "A" mode. This is because it was picking up the low frequency sound caused by the water hitting the inside of the washer. That is not something you're aware of because the frequency is so low.

My point in all of this, is that you have to be very careful as to which mode is used (A or C), the response setting of the meter (fast or slow) - as that can influence the final reading.

Lastly, you always need to start with an ambient reading to establish the noise floor as that affects the overall reading - and it will change depending upon time of day, other appliances being used, people in the room, etc.

From previous post about the KA:
"DW standing 2 feet away: 65-76db (louder closer to floor)
DW sitting on LR couch 27 ft away: 57-63 db (note there is a large intervening island)
TV from couch 12 ft away: 40's
Sound level on couch after turning up television to hear it over the DW noise: 70ish
My 2 parrots squawking at the DW: 80-90db"

Measured under identical conditions, my KA was clearly much noisier than the Miele.

Your ambient sound level is so much higher than mine that I don't think any comparison is possible. Makes one wonder under what conditions KA (or any other manufacturer) measures their DW's noise.

Bottom line was reliability, loading capacity, filling in the 24" space and a china cycle. I read lots of reviews and listened to salespeople talk about their favorites. I wanted the option of a heat dry and was concerned about standing water and excess moisture left in the machine. My previous dw's had a heat dry, although I did not always use it, and plastics and dishes always were dry in the morning. I figured the noise differences between the machines was probably not all that significant.
What I learned---interior spaces vary significantly especially between Am. and Euro models. Take your pans into the store. Measure the dimensions of your space and the dishwasher width.

This is something to consider.