berryberry,

I'm no fool with money, but I'm no scrooge either. Sometimes the cheapest price isn't the best deal and goodwill counts. When you nickel and dime someone they are naturally going to look at how they can cut corners to meet your price and still make a decent living that is if they don't tell you to pound sand first.

Look at all those something-for-nothing WalMart shoppers buying cheap, lead coated toys from China for their kids - what a deal huh? If they were willing to pay $3 more they might get an American product and not worry about the lead, or the child labor or the communist repressive state or the environmental cost of shipping the Chinese junk halfway around the world.

There is shopping around and there is being petty and cheap. Some people just can't wait to cut off the nose to spite the face. You really put your foot in your mouth and I think you've had your just deserts handed to you here. Next time, before you go chase a penny off a cliff why not think what you'll save by just letting it roll off.

Good luck with the Wolf if that's what you end up with because you'll be spending more coin for less stove. Can't wait to hear the tantrum over that one...

Did not.

Did so!

Did not!

Yeah, well you're a stupid head.

I'm telling!

You're not the boss of me.

Am too!

(POW)

MOM!!!

Don't make me pull this car over . . . . .

Yep, this is the "Appliances" that I first met a few years ago. One dare not tread this waters without thick neopreme over an even thicker skin. I'm sure glad I bought my Bluestar way before reading this thread.

I'm headng back over to "Cooking" and have a Caramel Covered Cheeto...

LOL Alice!

"Look at all those something-for-nothing WalMart shoppers buying cheap, lead coated toys from China for their kids - what a deal huh? If they were willing to pay $3 more they might get an American product and not worry about the lead, or the child labor or the communist repressive state or the environmental cost of shipping the Chinese junk halfway around the world."

SH - "If" BB had bought a cheap range and then complained that it wasn't as good as a Bluestar, your commentary might have been relevant.

"There is shopping around and there is being petty and cheap." Another statement that doesn't seem to apply. Taken at face value, it seems that BB found a good deal and knew it, and only presented that deal to the B&M at the request of his GC. Maybe he shouldn't have given out XS's name. Maybe he made other mistakes. I see how he could be accused of being cooperative, but I fail to see how this makes him petty and cheap.

The only "crime" that BB has committed is to show displeasure at BS/PP. That's simply not tolerated by certain folks around here.

Seems like there are plenty of people here who are anti-competition.

I can't wait for 'cheap chinese' bluestar knock offs and subzero knock offs to start coming to the market to really heat up the competition :)

Price fixing is not my cup of tea and try to not patronize such dealers/companies. If I can negotiate the price of a house, a car, why not an appliance?

"Price fixing is not my cup of tea and try to not patronize such dealers/companies. If I can negotiate the price of a house, a car, why not an appliance?"

1) It takes two to negotiate. A company is perfectly free to say "this is my price--if it's too high, buy from a different company". A homeowner could do the same. Saturn does it on its cars, as to a number of car dealers.

2) It's not "price fixing" when a company says that the price its products sell for in a store should be the same in every store. Blue Star and Wolf (and Viking, and GE, etc.) are all competing here. Blue Star just isn't going to compete with itself--what's the point?

sorry heimert - but if it looks like price fixing and it smells like price fixing, it is price fixing. A company is free to set the wholesale price that it sells it's product to distributors and/or dealers but forcing them to sell at a particular price is price fixing no matter how you couch it. What happened to capitalism and free market economy? Sadly our pro-business administration is not looking out for consumers. I still can't believe that the Medicare prescription drug program is not allowed to negotiate drug prices!

And by the way, Saturn no longer really has fixed pricing - I negotiated quite a lot off my last Saturn.

Actually, last June, the Supreme Court ruled that manufacturers are within their rights to set prices for consumers, and to forbid discounting if they choose.

So, Bluestar/Signature can set a price for all their retailers. They may be able to offer last years models at a discount, but the manufacturer can probably set that price, too.

weissman, the problem is you're using a term too loosely. If a store sets a price for a product, say lettuce, you could call that "price fixing" because it's "fixed" the price at 99c/pound.

Take Apple Computer--they have a bunch of retail stores. They sell their iPods and computers at the prices they set--same thing at every store, no discounts. That's not price fixing--that's them not choosing to negotiate--you can buy the iPod for what they're willing to sell it for.

So, why should Bluestar have a different rule when they don't happen to own the stores they sell through? They still have to compete against Wolf et al. If Bluestar "fixes' their price too high, you can buy from Wolf instead.

It's really taking business decisions away from business owners, in addition to taking some choices away from consumers. It may be legal, but that doesn't make it right. It's actually fairly short-sighted on the part of manufacturers. It discourages retailers from having their items in stock (if they can't negotiate price, more likely to have the item still sitting in inventory at tax time); which discourages buyers who like to actually see a high dollar item before buying it. Sales are then driven to larger retailers, ultimately leading to fewer choices for consumers.

Apple choosing to own and operate its own retail stores is not the same as Apple telling independent retailers how to run their businesses. Independent retailers have to purchase their inventory. Why shouldn't they be able to decide the sale price of that inventory in order to turn a reasonable profit (aside from the decision of 5 people in D.C.)? I suspect the Supreme Court will eventually reverse itself as more and more brands consolidate.

Wow, a dealer whining about another dealer doing what he can within the fine print of a contract to offer his customers the best possible deal is very petty and shows a lack of desire to do what they can for their own customers.

If I buy a Bluestar, I know where I won't be shopping. That's the same attitude that will result in getting little support the first time you call up with a problem.

I think i should make this clear to all. Bluestar as a manufacturer DO NOT operate a price fixing policy, unlike Wolf, Viking and Subzero.

They do however operate a minimum advertised price or UMRP, i as a retailer can not show on the web site a price below UMRP. In this particular instance Bluestar as a manufacture had nothing to do with the OP issue

I don't understand the accusation of 'nickel and diming' or any type of greed in this situation. The dealer was given the opportunity to gain a sale by meeting a price or otherwise convincing the customer to buy. No crime by the OP.

In most cases, stores who will be 'meeting or beating' a competitor's price require seeing the bid from the other store, so it was also not an obvious mistake to let them know from where the price came.

When I was ordering my appliances, almost all the prices were lower (not including for Wolf) than at the big box or online retailers, except the dishwasher, which was $50-100 more. I asked our salesman why that particular item was more. He explained why that would be, then met the price anyway. He didn't call the manufacturer to complain about the other stores I'd mentioned. If he couldn't have dropped the price, he would have said so...Neither he nor I would have been upset about the exchange. It is normal, prudent, and should be expected for customers to try to get the best price, best service, etc. for their money. Most of us don't have it to throw away...even nickels and dimes at a time.

what rhome said! I agree, this is business as usual. I don't get whence the brickbats being hurled at the OP.

Alice is also right. Apple selling their products at their own stores is an entirely different proposition than vending through an independent retailer who has had to purchase from the manufacturer, and then is also required to turn around and sell said product at a selling price (well lower bounded selling price) set by that manufacturer. I simply don't see how this does anybody any good and let alone how it could impact the manufacturer any at all; it keeps retailers from employing their own regional tactics to stay competitve. I realize that Wolf/SZ does this and more blatantly even!, and that appliances aren't the only ones practicing this method of doing business. But it is a puzzler alright.

Wow. For a potential buyer dealers conduct like this is not to impressive. It also directly reflects on the Manufacture's repetition. On this forum I noticed a lot of problems with poor warranty repair service even to the point of frequently having the manufacture directly involved by sidestepping the dealer. I done a lot of research on this range trying to see if buying from an online dealer was going to be a issue such as voiding a warranty. My state's dealer is a long ways away so what good is he going to do me. He not going to making a long distant service call. I have to pay state tax on the purchase so I am actually penalized by purchasing from him and paying a higher quoted price. Plus delivery and set up fee. In my first and only conversation via phone with them he told me how much he hated my town .That is an new sales tactic to me . I was not impressed. I am also not easy to offend and I was not offended enough to stop the deal. It was the price and tax that stopped it . Its ludicrous to say I going to get good service from them.
In this thread I notice one dealer mentioned is listed( by my count which is probably a little off ) as a factory dealer in 15 states yet list only one physical address. It looks like you have to pay the tax in all states from them so what's the idea of serving 15 states . How could you service what you sold. Are they going to beat the price of your other state dealer?
So I dont have all the money in the world to purchase a range . Cost is important to me . I will have to do the install and maintenance on the range .Why should I have to pay a premium price from a dealer that I not ever going to see.

While I like that our GC worked on pricing with the two dealers, I was a bit surprised that he showed each the other's prices. It worked out for us, because one dealer at first said the other's price for an item had to be a mistake. When our GC confirmed that it wasn't, the dealer matched the other's price.

At the risk of taking this thread off-course, I'll mention appliance dealer's policies and terms (see sample below). Pretty one-sided, no? And I'm not surprised a bit.

DELIVERY POLICY

We want to assure your delivery goes as smooth as possible, to assist us in doing so, we require the following:

1. Our staff must have clear access to the delivery site. This means all walkways must be free of snow, dirt, and refuse. If our staff must walk on unpaved ground, it must be dry and smooth. If wood planks are required, it is the customers responsibility to have them at the delivery time.

2. We will deliver all items to the main floor, except whirlpool tubs which will be dropped into the garage. If a basement or upper level delivery is required our staff will ask you to sign a waiver. Any extra charges will be determined by our delivery personnel and paid directly to them. All Common Carrier deliveries will be dropped off in garage only.

3. We will plug in electric ranges, if the correct new cord is purchased from us and delivered with the balance of the order. We will also hook up standard top load type washers, for an additional charge. Please check with your salesperson. We will not connect, disconnect, install or
uninstall any other appliance requiring a gas or water line.

4. When there is a request for an existing appliance to be moved to a different location in the same house at the time of your delivery, it will be done at the discretion of our delivery personnel. An extra charge will apply. We will not be responsible to the condition of an existing appliance, or to the home, although we will take the utmost care.

5. At the time of your original delivery, we will move existing disconnected, and uninstalled appliances to the curb or garage for an additional charge.

6. We will uncrate large appliances to facilitate an inside main floor delivery. (this includes refrigerators, ranges, standard washers and dryers). Appliances not needing to be unboxed will be left in the carton to assure all materials are present for installation. Cartons and packaging materials will be left at the job site.

RETURNS AND CREDIT POLICY

During the ordering process we work with you to order the merchandise to your exact specifications. We understand that unforeseen circumstances happen that can result in merchandise needing to be returned. Please understand that most merchandise ordered from us is special order. We will make every attempt to accommodate you with the return and credit for returned merchandise; however, we must adhere to the return policies of our manufacturers. If there is a restocking fee or refusal by our manufacturers to take back merchandise, we must in turn refuse credit or charge you a restocking fee.

To return merchandise, a return authorization, and reason for return is needed.

Returned product must be in unused condition with all parts, returned in the original undamaged box with all packing, instruction books and warranty card.

All claims for shortages, damaged merchandise or improper delivery must be made within five (5) business days of delivery. Failure to notify us within this time period will constitute your acceptance of delivery. Once authorization for return is received merchandise must be returned within fifteen (15) business days to receive credit.

All products have a manufacturers limited warranty against defects excluding physical damage. All warranty claims must be made directly with the manufacturer. Only if the manufacturer authorizes, in writing, replacement of the item rather than repair, will the item be exchanged.

We must receive your merchandise before a replacement can be issued: If an exchange has been authorized, defective merchandise must be uninstalled and ready for pick up. If product is not ready for return, payment must be made for new product and a credit will be issued when defective merchandise is returned. Defective merchandise must be returned in order to receive credit.

We are not responsible for any labor costs incurred due to a return.

All refunds exclude original shipping charge.

If there is a question regarding the feasibility of a return, then payment for the new product is due in full at delivery. Credit will be issued if manufacturer accepts the return (applicable restocking charges will be deducted).

UMRP= Unilateral Minimum Retail Pricing

From Appliance Advisor:

Some time ago, we asked our readers what they know about UMRP, Unilateral Minimum Retail Pricing, a technique for manufacturers to fix pricing at the retail level. Using this technique manufacturers publish a retail price below which dealers may not sell its product or else risk loosing the ability to continue selling the brand. UMRP is set below the MSRP (Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price) and MAP (Minimum Advertised Price). The result is a competitive landscape where dealers can no longer offer pricing better or different than the dealer across town. We are not lawyers and are not qualified to render any sort of legal opinion, but we certainly can tell when our pockets are being picked.

It seems from what we have read, that this practice is legal, but for the life of us we do not understand how or why. From what we understand, UMRP is legal because there is no collusion between the dealer and the manufacturer to set pricing. Through the eye of this needle drives billions of dollars of glistening stainless steel appliances sold without haggle, without compromise, without discount, without the invisible hand of capitalist competition, without urgency, without pricing competition of any kind. Where we come from, this is called price fixing.

Just regarding UMRP - some retailers manage to compete with others when there is no ability to compete on price, by offering other incentives. For example, when I bought my Mac laptop, the retailer offered a free printer and DVD player, which the Macintosh store near me was NOT offering. Similarly, I understand that appliance dealers can offer things like free delivery, or throw in a garbage disposal, or extend the warranty another year, and that sort of thing. In other words, there are still ways a hungry appliance dealer can beat its competition even with UMRP.

With respect to the OP, I have to admit I feel he/she was forcing price negotiation just a bit too much. You know, people deserve to make a profit, and a living, and put food on the table. I am assuming that had the OP bought from the local dealer instead of a website, there'd be some customer service involved in the form of delivery and installation, and easy return or repair in case something arrived damaged. So the local dealer can't compete very easily with the website on price due to the overhead of a brick-and-mortar store. But it can offer immediate and local customer service that the website cannot. I am not saying I don't search for a good bargain myself, but it comes to a point where I am not trying to get the seller to be OK with little or no profit just to have sold some inventory out of his store.

***Deep Breath***

akchicago - Please read the following quote from the OP:

"I asked them for prices on the range, hood, DW, etc - and told them I had a great price on the BS and doubted they could come close to it but was giving them the opportunity as a courtesy to my GC. "

And from his subsequent post:

"But I never expected the local dealer to match my price - again, I asked them for pricing as a courtesy to my GC "

Now please re-read what you wrote:

"With respect to the OP, I have to admit I feel he/she was forcing price negotiation just a bit too much."

Do you still stand behind your statement? If so, please ignore my post, as I officially give up!

Once again.One BS dealer is a dealer in 15 states with one listed address. Bricks and mortar are spread pretty thin in this case. Repairs by this company seem to be a constant issue on this site and you complain about a customer.

Tommey2007

I think you may be referring to Signature Marketing when you mention 15 states covered by one dealer.

Signature Marketing is the distributor for those states not a retailer.

As for service Bluestar control ALL service calls directly as do many other manufacturers Maytag, Whirlpool, GE and Kitchenaid. to my knowledge Bluestar has never failed to provide service to date on a range or cooktop. Service may have been slow in coming in the past but they are improving. We must remember that Bluestar is a growing company in regards sales with many happy customers, with sales come service issues. I know so far as my company goes when i sell a range or cooktop i fax and email Bluestar Service with the customers address, i do this so Bluestar can find a servicer in that area to preempt a service requirement. this means that my customer will get serivce, at the same time the Bluestar serivce network grows for the benifit of all.

I was on Blue Star website. where to buy> US dealers And that pages says please visit one of our exclusive dealers. That why I was saying one dealer is listed 15 states from one address.I just reading what it says.

Tommy2007,
As stated the distributors are listed on the BlueStar website. the practice is to call the distributor who will give you the dealers in your area.
Since you are suppose to deal with Bluestar directly for service and not with the dealer, the comment on people having to bypass the dealer to get service is not accurate. Many dealers these days do not handle service, they refer you to the company.

I just assumed that the retail dealer did the warranty work. I had no idea that a generic appliance repair company preformed the maintenance. Calling Blue Star direct for repairs clears up a lot of the confusion on my part of why the manufacture was so directly involved in the repairs in so many cases in these forums.

Okay, I may be in the minority here, because while I totally get Berryberry's frustration as OP, I don't get what's so bad about UMRP or most of the appliance store policies that Chipshot posted. My one disagreement with the latter is the statement about labor and shipping charges involved for warranty returns, but those are negotiable and I do understand why they start off from the position that as the store, rather than the manufacturer of the lemon, that they're not responsible for paying for it.

UMRP makes it possible for full service appliance stores to stay in business, and it's in the interest of the manufacturers to keep the full service showrooms in business. How many items can you think of where you go to the local store, handle the display items, talk to the salesmen, then buy elsewhere where it's cheaper? I have no issue with the cheaper, but essentially you're consuming the services of the store without paying for them. If you do all your research online, buy online. But the appliance store can't offer you the showroom, and the salesmen (and at the better stores I've been to the salesmen do know things I haven't been able to learn online, even on GW, even if they don't know everything), or the continuing service on small fixes (adjust the spring on the DW door no charge anyone?), if they can't earn a profit. The discounters are generally sell through places who just order the stuff and have it sent to you. They have very minimal overhead.

As AKChicago said, the store may give you a douceur with your order, or might give you a discount on a large order which they can allocate to items on which they don't have to uphold a URMP, and that's fine. They still have to compete.

just a note i have dealt with mr.Tom Sealy from signature. all he does is yes you to death, his service dept is the pits although luke is a good guy when your sent for a repair with a number of parts and try to quick fix something by prying it with a screwdriver, i'm not a big fan,american range wanted to replace my range to find out why i was having a problem. and signature would not send/install the new range. he kept three units sent in my name for me. and used them as displays for dealers and to fill his own customers orders. let it be said, the reason i didn't purchase the unit from him originally was i couldn't get a reply from them about sales.go figure!so american range sent the unit to my house and i installed it.
john

I just received my BlueStar range and it did not come with the typical factory applied stainless steel coating film, that one is to remove after your appliance arrives. When I questioned the seller about this, they told me that none of the BlueStar ranges come with this protective film, only the backsplashes do. Can anyone confirm this, from personal experience? I'm concerned that my range is a return or refurbished item.

Also, did the year sticker on the outside of the box correspond with your year of purchase? I was told I was buying a 2007 model, but the sticker on the outside said 2006.

From whom did you purchase this range?

Mine is a 2005 I think anyway it was before they painted all three sides if you ordered a painted model, on mine the front was painted black, no film of any kind there, but the sides which are stainless steel had the blue film on it. Was yours still fastened to it's wooden Flat? or just have the box on it?

Mine, 2 yrs ago came with the blue film. There is a way to tell if you have a more recent model. The newer ranges have 'blue' indicator lights instead of red. They also have a gliding oven rack (haven't seen this yet-because I haven't been to the stores) and have a speckled paint job on the insides of the oven.

This is not a reply about the initial Blue Star thread...This is regarding the UMRP issue....

Just so everybody knows, I'm not directing this at anyone in particular, I'm only trying to shed a little bit of light on this topic of UMRP pricing.

I have owned my own appliance retail store for many years (15yrs to be exact), and I've been in this business much longer than that...And I currently work at one of the largest Independent Appliance Dealers in my area.....

Regarding the whole "UMRP" thing....I get the same complaint from customers every single day telling me how much they hate UMRP....Well, I think people need to see it from OUR perspective (appliance dealers, I mean), as well.

Here's the biggest problem with high-end appliances.....

Scenario:
Consumer goes shopping for a SubZero refrigerator....

Customer: "I want this SubZero model XXX"
Store A: "Yes, we have that Sub Zero XXX model. Our price is $7000."

Customer: "Well, that's too much, I'm going to store B"

Store B: "OK, we have that model, we'll beat the other guy, and sell it to you for $6300!"

Customer: "That's still too much...I'm going somewhere else"

Store C: "Yeah, we have it, we'll beat your last quote, and we'll sell it to you for $6000"

Customer: "Well, that's good, but, I'll try somewhere else"

Store D: "Uh, sorry....$6000 is as low as we can go!"

Customer: "Well, I saw it online from Joe Sleazball's Discount Appliances for $5500...I'll get it from him"

NOTE:
OK, an internet store "may" be able to do this, because they have no storefront, no overhead, they don't have their own delivery trucks....etc... Problem is, he's got no service either! If you have an issue with him/her, try dealing with an internet company over the phone, and whose store is 3000 miles away!

Anyway,
Unfortunately, because of the way consumers shop, and overall greed being a factor, there has to be a line drawn SOMEWHERE! We as dealers can't sell something below cost and stay in business! Sorry, that's the way it is! We see these problems every day! Our competitors will hack & slash prices so much, just to get the sale, that there's absolutely no point in trying to sell these high-end appliances anymore! So, when Joe Consumer comes to me with a low-ball price on an item like this, why should I even sell it? Where's my incentive???

SO, the appliance retailers & some of the appliance manufacturers had to do something. What's the point in selling an item at cost? It's to the point right now, where dealers make more profit on a $399 dollar washer, than selling a $10,000 SubZero, WOLF, or Viking....etc etc etc....I'm sorry, but, that makes absolutely NO SENSE TO ME!

You think a Ferrari is going to sell at cost????? I don't think so.....

Now, just so we're straight, I certainly believe in trying to get a good deal on something, (as I try to do with many things), and, I also believe in being competitive...However, where does it end? Where does being competitive end???? There has to be some give & take......

I sell an item for $10.00, Joe sells it for $9.00, Bill sells it for $8.00.....I mean, where does it end?

UMRP is to try and eliminate slashing & hacking of prices...It's so that each dealer can't keep slashing prices to the point where it doesn't pay to even sell the appliance. This is how it SHOULD BE!

** Should a consumer overpay? ABSOLUTELY NOT!

** Is UMRP the right thing to do? As far as I'm concerned.....YES, IT IS! Until something better comes along.

Again, I am not directing this to anyone in particular, and I'm not trying to get anyone angry with appliance dealers, but, I just think that consumers also need to see the other side of the fence before passing judgment on the UMRP issue.

Anyway, have a good night, folks.

Laney50W - I agree with you - it's what I was trying to say in my post on this thread, but my point was lost when my post was pieced apart due to my criticism of the OP. It is good to hear from someone actually on the sales side, who, as I said, has a right to make a living and put food on the table. The high prices on Wolf/Subzero/Bluestar are well-known - yet people re-doing their kitchens with budgets that don't allow those prices still try to buy them. If people re-doing their kitchens cannot afford those prices, there are SO many other choices at lower price points at several tiers. They should look into the other very good brands on the market rather than expend a lot of effort and frustration to get the retail store to lower somehow the prices when it is not possible.

laney50w - I guess I'd like some clarification. I strongly support your right to earn a living and not sell things below cost - but as I understand things, the retailer pays a wholesale price to the manufacturer/distributor and then charges the customer a retail price. The way competition works is that the retailer can charge the customer whatever they want above wholesale so that he makes enough to cover his overhead and profit. Now I do realize that internet stores skew this model a bit because their overhead is lower but why does the manufacturer have the right to tell the retailer what to sell the item for? That to me is really price fixing. And it only seems to apply to high end/luxury items - there's a perception that if you can afford the high end item, you can afford to pay full price and shouldn't expect a discount.

I like Mt. Blanc pens. I used to be able to get them at a substantial discount at Staples. Suddenly now, Mt. Blanc has stopped letting Staples carry them, probably because they view it as cheapening the brand and they don't want Mt. Blanc pens owned by the unwashed masses (by the way they were still expensive at Staples, just not as expensive as elsewhere).

This being a consumer site, I doubt that there is sympathy for making money selling the products ;). We are all here to learn how to maximize our needs with the budgets we have. So it makes a lot of sense to be able to buy a premium product at less than premium prices.

In our situation, we will surely buy our products from local stores and pay their higher prices in exchange for better service. But in the planning process, I love the fact that I can do a quick search to see that if that oven is $4K or $2K. The latter may fit in the budget, but the former may not. As such, not being able to see the prices for some equipment like Wolf is annoying. Yes, I can contact my salesperson but that is not feasible when I am reading the forum late at night and the guy takes a day or two sometimes to get back to me.

Then there is the issue of what is fair profit. Without being told what that is, it is hard for us to say it is fair to have price protection as stated. What if the margin is 45% vs 25%? I may shy away from paying nearly twice as much for a brand vs another which is routinely discounted. For example, when shopping for induction cooktops, I found a commercial brand which is discounted heavily even in the local store. In contrast, the German brands are being sold at double the price so they lost my sale.

Also, many of us buy premium products like luxury cars. Yet, there is full visibility in their pricing and no protection as stated. Why is it that the system works for a $50,000 car, but not a $10,000 range?

Anyway, these discussions can become controvorsial quickly and I do appreciate hearing both sides. But thought I put in my two cents. :)

Laney50 - I'm going to have to disagree with you here. The Internet has changed the way everyone does business. Information is power, and the balance of power has shifted. There is no right to sell any item for a certain amount of profit, and I don't think someone is sleazy for undercutting your price. If someone can figure out a way to provide all you do for less, they will get my dollar. And that's the real question isn't it: do the internet only sites provide the same product? I don't mean just the actual appliance but the entire product you provide, the store, the demos, etc. Probably not.

In my business, I figured out I don't want the clients that that value their time and effort so little that they will spend hours trying to save small amounts of money. And they always end up being the most demanding, unreasonable clients because they won't value my time and effort either.

There is no right to sell any item for a certain amount of profit, and I don't think someone is sleazy for undercutting your price.

I can't believe that Laney50 is being faulted for trying to make a decent living - and profit. I agree with what he has said and what akchicago has reiterated. Not everyone wants to buy on-line, and yes, while we can't go back to the good ole days of Main Street retailing, making the retailer the bad guy in all of this, and limiting their ability to make a profit, is...well, I'm kind of left speechless.

Yes, it would be great if there were complete transparency. Isn't it interesting that the great American model of free enterprise and capitalism is only okay when it benefits the buyer?

Jeesh.

elizpiz - the criticism here is not of the retailers - it's of the manufacturers for PRICE FIXING - you can call it UMRP - and some retailers may like it for eliminating competition - but it's price fixing and it's not the American model of free enterprise and capitalism. Our right wing supreme court has ruled it legal - the argument being that if you don't like the price of a Viking you can buy a Wolf - but that's not what competitive pricing is supposed to be about.

elizpiz, akchicago et. al. How is the request for allowing competitive pricing dispossessing a retailer from "making a living wage"????? NO consumer here is saying that they want to dictate what prices retailers should set for the product; they're all asking to allow the retailers to set their own price and thus give the consumers the ability to shop. HOW in the world does allowing retailers to set their own prices and thus dictate their own profits translate to robbing them of a living??? Are you saying that retailers are such idiots that if the Manufacturer doesn't set a UMRP that they are fools enough to charge consumers LESS than they paid for the product???

All these hypotheticals that fixing prices allows the retailer to take better care of the consumer is pure unadulterated bunkum. The whole idea of allowing this competitive situation is to allow retailers to be able to target a range of consumers with a range of requirements. Case in point: If I as a consumer want to buy a Subzero because I want to live in my house for the next 30 years and I want items that will live that long in the house with me, then that becomes part of my calculation and I will want to purchase from a store that does indeed offers service and is not only a nearby Brick and Mortar but that is enough of a proximity that I can reasonably request & expect that service. Those will be important criteria and I'll (grudgingly) part with the extra $750.00 that Joe's Fridges in the next state would have saved me.
However, if I want that Subzero label in my house which I'm going to flip as soon as it is done for an extra $50K because of that SZ label I've bought, then I don't care about service. I don't care how many times the retailer will come and dust and polish my fridge, how many free checkups he will do, how well groomed his techs are and how often they get manicured ... I just want a good deal on a working SubZero because I'm going to bust out of the house as soon as it is in. I'm a low-maintenance client and I don't want to have to pay for all the peripherals that I won't be able to use! I'm a Joe-type of client - why can't Joe be allowed to be competitive????? More to the point, by fixing these UMRPs, aren't I being forced to overpay because all those additional wonderful things that UMRP gets me and that I'd appreciate if I were buying like customer-1, I won't be able to use because I am, in fact, customer-2!

I say this because I DO see the wonders of competition. I am a customer-1 type of person - I buy locally from stores that have a good reputation and I'm willing to pay more than the lowest price for some local accountability. However, I do not see why all purchasers should be required to use the same purchasing criteria that I would use. THAT is always dangerous, in my opinion.

Hi mindstorm,

Unfortunately, I think the problem would still be there, even if the retailers were allowed to set their own prices.

You would still have consumers wanting better prices, so, the consumer keeps shopping store to store...The retailers will keep trying to beat their competitors, so, the retailers will keep on slashing prices...UNTIL.....we're back to square one.....And round & round we go, into the same downward spiral...."Where does the price slashing end?"

Being competitive is one thing...But, you can't really be competitive if you have to keep slashing prices, until there's nowhere left to go.

Now, I completely understand the consumers' side of this, (I'm a consumer, whenever I need to purchase something) and I can certainly understand trying to get a decent deal on something....Believe me. I'm the same way, when the situation allows....But, I also understand that these guys need to eat, and support a family.

I'm a professional musician, as well....When I look for a guitar, I know that guitars are very expensive (the good ones, at least), and I know darn well what I'm going to pay for one.

Do I save some money from buying from a local dealer, who I always deal with? Yeah....But, not a lot. I know he has to make a living, and I don't push it. He treats me awesome, when I have a problem, it gets taken care of immediately, and to me that's priceless. Plus, all the adjustments on the guitar, maintenance, are all taken care of....

I don't know.....I certainly don't have all the answers....This is a very big topic.

But, there has to be a way where a retailer can make some profit, and the consumer gets a fair deal.

I'm on the side of UMRP. In fact, I think UMRP supports the small business person and the internet retailer. Not the manufacturer. They get their money either way, although if they care about their product they probably would encourage UMRP. It's setting a fair price, not a 'free' price. Just like 'fair trade' coffee or 'fair trade' bananas, teas and chocolate. It insures that the retailer can make a living. I certainly have no sympathy for someone who is so avaricious that they have no concern for someone making a living wage if it gets ever so slightly in the way of an extra $50,000 when They flip a house.

The local retail pays local rents, local taxes, spends their money in local businesses, sends their kids to local schools, attends and supports local arts, churches etc.

Yes, some retailers will sell at cost, or close to costs for various reasons. They may be using the good name of a product that was promoted and displayed by their competitor to 'steal' a sale. They are very often running up debts, and in fact, they can put a manufacturer or distributor out of business if they run up credit debts to their supplier- declare bankruptcy or just skip town. Many of us have read just such stories on this forum.

Figure it out, do you support a living wage for yourself? Or do you work for free? Without UMRP it's a race to the bottom, and even that local shop with the friendly people will not be not be around anymore... UMRP actually allows for more competition, because it makes all the other parts of the transaction more important than the bottom line.

I don't understand why this is so hard - clearly there is a disconnect. And I must say this UMRP => "living wage" has a bleeding heart quality of argument to it that is eye-roll inducing.

HOW in the world, if retailers set their own prices does that equate to them setting a price that they can't survive on?

What is it about flexible pricing that keeps a retailer from comprehending his bottom line? Why does our retailer in question not recognize what the product cost him and what he needs to sell it for in order to ensure his "living wage"? What would make him sell it for less?

Are we using UMRP to save them from themselves?

If retailer-2 has lower overheads or more efficient management or whatever and decides that his costs are lower and therefore to ensure a suitable "living wage" can offer a lower price, is it really that criminal to allow him to set his own price? Do you seriously think it is anti-competitive to allow these two guys to work it out for themselves?

The local retail pays local rents, local taxes, spends their money in local businesses, sends their kids to local schools, attends and supports local arts, churches etc... Without UMRP it's a race to the bottom, and even that local shop with the friendly people will not be not be around anymore...
This is more of the bleeding heart part of this argument that is utter hog-wash IMO. As I said before, if I as a consumer need these local friendly shops and the services they will provide, I will buy from them and pay what I have to because those "other parts of the transaction" are important. If I don't, well, my calculations should be allowed to be different.

Lastly, how come other large purchases do not need a UMRP? As someone else pointed out, car sales get to set their own prices and work out their own "living wage" (I know. I just bought one. And it wasn't a $10K-12K car either). Are appliance retailers more half-witted than auto retailers?
People get their houses built, roofs redone, landscaping done - all without UMRP and I've never once heard the "living wage" argument come up here even ONCE on behalf of the GCs and the labourers. And with the latter bunch, that term is perhaps more applicable and more apt than with a Subzero sales shop!

mindstorm - I fully agree with you. I've been told by stores "Sorry, that's my best price" or "No, I can't match that price" or "If you can get it for that price, then buy it there". One of the big chain stores even refused to match their own Internet pricing.

And why is it only the high end brands that need UMRP protection? I still believe this isn't about retailers trying to make a living - many of them offer other perks like free shipping, extended warranty, etc. to get around the UMRP. I believe it's about the manufacturer's trying to protect their image.

UMRP= bare bones profit margin a dealer makes selling appliances at a low cost to the end user all while maximizing the bottom line of the manufacturer.

The only two parties that win in the UMRP system are the end user(consumer) and the appliance manufacturers. I would argue that without the UMRP system appliance business owners would determine that margin on appliances should be comparable to that found in other parts of the building process...I.E...plumbing margin=30-50% cabinets 30-50%...Appliance UMRP=17% to 20% margin. Appliance Dealers have allowed the manufacturers (UMRP system) to dictate appliance pricing. (We made more money before the implementation of the UMRP system) In terms of dollars and cents, UMRP has created mediocre appliance business's while increasing the profits of the big manufacturers...END consumers have in fact benefited from the change...

In closing I feel like appliance dealers should unite against the UMRP system...It is a fact that appliance dealers cannot operate at a lower margin..I dare any companies to try.(remember you will have to always throw in free delivery and haul away)...you can get out the going out of business signs...Why should we let the appliance manufacturer's dictate that the dealers business operate in mediocrity??

"Where does the price slashing end?"

it ends when it's no longer advantageous to the retailers. in other words, the market dictates when it ends.

if you don't want to slash prices to compete, then don't. your choice. stop carrying the brands where the margins are too small. your choice.

like everyone, i want the best overall product (including the actual product, plus service, plus the peace of mind that the place i buy from will still be around in a year or two if i have any problems) for the best price.

but if i can save a couple grand, i may choose to sacrifice the long-term benefits for the short-term savings, and that might mean buying from a less-reputable or less service-oriented retailer.

so be it. that's my choice as a consumer.

I am astonished at Mindstorm and the others who have used a car analogy of all things to support their argument. People who dicker over a car price, and say they got "a deal" at the car showroom are kidding themselves. The auto manufacturers have a MSRP, and then they have a price they charge to the dealers. You can negotiate substantially below MSRP, depending upon the car (not so easy with e.g. a BMW), but the dealership is not going to let go of that car below what they are being charged by the manufacturer. Also, whether you go to a dealership in New York, California, Florida or Montana, the price of that same car will be fairly close from dealership to dealership. And like some other posters mentioned, often when they can't lower the price any further, they will compete with other incentives like free oil changes, extended warranties, throwing in a navigation system, and the like.

Look, if no one were willing to pay the UMRP for Subzero/Wolf/Bluestar, those prices would come down to create demand. That's the laws of basic economics. But, since people ARE willing to pay those prices, why should the retailer lower the prices for the buyers who are not? And if people can't afford those appliances, they should buy something else, instead of craving the item that's over their heads price-wise, and then complaining bitterly about it because they couldn't "win" in the price negotiation with the retailer. To go back to the car analogy, a Honda is a great car - but people want a BMW and will go into debt to get it, totally overreaching on their budget and lifestyle. It's kinda pathetic. It's great if you can afford a $5000 appliance, but if you cannot, stop trying to foist the responsibility onto the retailer to somehow make it affordable anyway.

People who dicker over a car price, and say they got "a deal" at the car showroom are kidding themselves. The auto manufacturers have a MSRP, and then they have a price they charge to the dealers. You can negotiate substantially below MSRP, depending upon the car (not so easy with e.g. a BMW), but the dealership is not going to let go of that car below what they are being charged by the manufacturer

I completely agree with and fully expect in a functioning economy the latter part of this statement! I don't understand what alwaysfixin thinks is "a deal" but to me, a deal uses the going/average "market value" as the baseline. The point is to allow the market = consumers + retailers, to set their price. Both are driven by self-interest and the steady-state/nominal prices tends to settle out to where both the retailer and the consumer reach an equitable level of unease.

I bought my car recently (a BMW, by the way) and while "our deal" is a small amount below MSRP, I have no misapprehensions that what I've paid for it is anywhere close to the manufacturer's or retailer's costs on the car or that my satisfaction comes from thinking I've that I squeezed either or both for all they're worth ... I'm happy coz we were going to buy this car anyhow, and now we got one for a bit less than we expected to pay based on the MSRP and the other 2 shops I contacted. Ergo, "I got a deal"!
WHY did they give me this deal? I don't know - perhaps because the retailer I went with liked my name? perhaps because I bought my other BMW from them and have it serviced there every year anyhow and he guessesd (correctly) this car would be coming to them for service, too?

Likewise, I expect something similar with appliance sales. I like what mschuma wrote. Look, relaxing price setting is going to a more fluid configuration but it is a "risk" for the consumer as much as it is a risk for the retailer. Still, it is pragmatic because it is market-determined pricing IF (and perhaps ESPECIALLY if) it does not involve subsidization of a product. If Subzeros are such awesome fridges that they should be priced at nominally $15K not this namby-pamby (but fixed) $10K setting such that the market supports that then I say Lead On, MacDuff! And if it means that cut-throat competition involves someone trying to undercut the next business by offering that fridge at $14.750K instead of the nominal $15K, well, that's the market speaking for you! Can you all agree that our appliance shops that are making "a living wage" at the 10K price should be able to limp along just fine at 14.75-15.25K???

C'est la "free market enterprise".

I fail to see the pathetic part in any of this. There is no need to spare any sympathies for consumers who don't know how to budget their purchases and must buy $10K fridges when they don't have that money, but that is no sillier than dim appliance retailers who sell fridges for less than their costs on them. There is a certain Darwinian justice in allowing this crop of retailers to die out, isn't there?? I just do not see why so much business can conduct itself in an open market EXCEPT for high-end appliance retail. Weissman, edlakin, mschuma, what you all write makes sense to me. I don't understand why this is hard to comprehend.

Maybe a story or two helps on this argument :).

I once struck a good relationship with the manager of a branch of marine retailers. I was buying $25K worth of electronics and I was shocked when he offered to match the price of even internet retailers. I asked how he was able to do that, while running such a large retail store. He pointed to the $25 plastic gas tank and said, "that is where I make my money." In other words, he just assumes that the highly competitive situation has ruled out making profit in the electronics. But for something like a $20 gas tank, people are going to pick that up locally. Again, this is the largest retail store chain this business with super high overhead but is able to stay in business, selling electronics at his cost.

Now let's look at Audio/video gear. When you go buy a DVD player, TV, etc., what happens at the end of the sale? You get a hard sell on cables, and extended warranty. Right? That is because they have huge margins in that stuff and very little in the basic equipment you intend to buy. To wit, game consoles such as Xbox and PS, are sold to retailers at basically zero margin. Why do they carry it then? Because like the marine store, they get to sell you games, accessories and such while you are there. And that is where the profits are.

Let's look at a high-end electronics retailer where I shop. They charge full list price with no discount. But I shop there often. Why? Because they would spend as much as half a day with me, moving speakers and other equipment from room to room to configure things to my liking. What's more, they have money back guarantee. If I buy the gear and don't like it for whatever reason, they come and pick it up no questions asked! They also per-screen what they carry and will not sell equipment which does not perform well.

Now let's look at the business at hand. I am trying to buy $20K worth of appliances. Do I get to see how that fridge works and how noisy it is in my house? No. How about that vent that is supposed to be "quiet" no matter which brand you look at? Not. How about that oven? Yes, yes, some places allow you to come and cook there but that is rare and in our case, it is the distributor who allows it and that is a once a month affair. We are buying a wood fired Pizza oven and I was amazed that people wanted to me to buy this thing by just looking at the cement that enclosed it! Needless to say, we are purchasing it from one of the two places that let us watch the thing in operation and ate the Pizza and other items cooked in it.

So you want to make higher margins? Do what the people above do. Start carrying cookware and other items and try to make money from them. I know you already sell extended warranties so you are good to go in that department ;). But how about offering money back guarantee on those items with price protection? I know I could have used it on our dishwasher which my wife liked less than the one we pulled out at half the cost to replace it with!

Yes, retail business is tough, tough, tough. That is the reason I don't make my living that way :). But if you want to be in it, figure out a way to make money that doesn't frustrate the savvy consumers in the internet age.

Mindstorm et al, I agree with your logical arguments. This UMRP is total nonsense, dont understand how it is even legal in a capitalist economy. In the old soviet union, prices for everything were predetermined with little regard to supply/demand, cost, need, enterprise or marketing (which is idealistic in its concept, self destructing in practice). This UMRP resonates that model .

As soon as the chinese figure out this niche 'high end' market, we will have sub zero clones flooding our stores at 1/5th the price!

Although I have an expensive built in fridge, I dont see why it is so expensive. The only reason I bought it was there were no cheaper built ins available. UMRP, I guess, is the reason :)

The appliance business is tough: We are expected to operate multi million dollar showrooms where customers can test drive appliances first. We are expected to deliver a 900lb Sub Zero across teak floors without leaving a scratch(for free of course). We are expected to offer builders unlimited credit to purchase appliances. We are expected to take back any appliance that does not live up to customer expectations (no questions asked). We are expected to sell all appliances at UMRP and offer free delivery and installation. There are lots of demands placed on the dealer. As a dealer I am okay in meeting these demands so long as the operating profit margin is in line with what it takes to run the a successful appliance business. The UMRP system limits the dealers profitability and thus it is IMPOSSIBLE to be all things to all people and make money doing it. It is impossible to run an appliance business selling product at 17-20% margin. I would propose that eliminating the UMRP system would create a free marketplace thus allowing the dealers to run a more successful business(price would go up). The UMRP system handicaps the dealer only. If the consumer really wants a better experience then they would have to put there money where there mouth is.

If I may without stepping on toes? It seems that the understanding of what prompted UMRP is somewhat divorced from the forces that brought the case before the courts.

The UMRP is primarily designed to protect the dealers and their investments in a brand.

For example: Dealer in State (city, county) 'A' attends a trade show where he is introduced to 'Greenstar' kitchen appliances. He knows that there is no dealer representation in his area, so he signs up for the products. He invests (read purchases) in one of each of the line of products for his showroom. He then buys advertising to feature his business and showcases his 'new line' of products. Perhaps he arranges for cooking demonstrations, etc. (You get the picture) At this point he has invested heavily in the product, we all know, with the understanding that his investment is based on his being able to sell product and make a profit. Let's say that he IS successful and creates a demand for the product. Then local big-box store notices his success and calls Greenstar and offers to buy tens (thousands?) of product, naturally at a discounted price. Thus they are able to sell the product at a lower price, perhaps even lower than what the original dealer pays to Greenstar. The manufacturer is now selling more product, so they are happy, but the dealer is now SOL and completely unhappy.

The argument in court was that the original dealer had made investments in the product that the 'other' seller(s) had not, and that he was owed some protection from this situation.

The argument went further in that the manufacturer was accountable to their dealers and that they were liable to the dealers for supporting ($$$) the brand.

The court found that this argument was not 'price fixing' and granted URMP.

I'm not joining in on either side, but the information might clear the air a little.

Just as an aside: the notion that the American consumer is entitled to the lowest possible price, is what drove quality into the ground and eventually to production on foreign soil.