Wolf blue chipping is an issue regardless of the self clean though self clean may exacerbate it. KitchenAid had a known self clean issue with their wall ovens but that was fixed 6 years ago. The rest... it's a crapshoot. Most of the time it will be fine, but electronics do fail, and in some cases high heat may push them over the edge. There is no brand that is universally regarded to have a more reliable self clean. Self clean caused fewer problems in the days before ovens had electronics.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Tue, Jan 13, 15 at 21:21

I have a less than $500 Kenmore smooth top electric range. Have run the self clean many, many times. No issues. I am amazed as to the reports of problems with self clean ovens.

Many reports of self clean issues involve double stacked ovens in cabinets. There is no where for the heat to go. It fries the electronics. I've done it myself. Expensive lesson learned. Now, I just live with a dirty oven.

Freestanding ranges rarely have issues with the electronics failing, especially due to oven heat. Slide-ins and wallovens are a different story.

Cheap components, poor design, and "who cares" assembly, all play their part in devaluing quality. A ten year life cycle plus the bonus of energy saving nonsense is merely the icing on the cake.
Refusal to concede appliance problems even exist are very much at the heart of today's moneymaking mantra.

"But it's so shiny! Don't you like shiny?"
"And big! Don't you like big?"
"Everyone likes big and shiny!"

Deleted

This post was edited by laat2 on Wed, Jan 14, 15 at 7:00

So is Wolf the only brand where the oven has a problem with the enamel failing?

Would 2 separate ovens stacked in a cabinet be better than a double oven unit? Would 2 ovens placed side-by-side in cabinets be better than stacked ovens? If getting a steam oven (which cleans with steam and not high heat), would it be better to put the steam oven in the lower position (to allow more heat to escape from the convection oven)?

Anything without self-clean is a deal-killer for my wife, so I'm not quite sure what to do . I had been sold on the Wolf E series steam & convection, before reading about the porcelain issues.

Gaggenau only makes wall ovens (no ranges), and there are no issues with the enamel that I'm aware of. It has pyrolosis rather than self-clean--at 905ð!

It's also a very reliable oven to cook in.

So is Wolf the only brand where the oven has a problem with the enamel failing?

Currently, yes. Electrolux used to have issues but those have been fixed for years now.

Would 2 separate ovens stacked in a cabinet be better than a double oven unit?

They wouldn't be more reliable per se, BUT if one fails, you wouldn't also lose the other. However, cabinetry and electrical will be more expensive, you'll need a separate 240V circuit for each oven. Plus, 2 singles cost more than a double to buy in the first place. People have talked about this configuration on the forum in the past, however I have never actually heard of anyone doing it since the cost far outweighs the benefit for most people. Also, be aware that some brands prohibit this configuration.

Would 2 ovens placed side-by-side in cabinets be better than stacked ovens?

Ergonomically, yes. Much better. You can put them both at the right height instead of one too high and one too low. It also solves the problem of manufacturers who prohibit stacking 2 singles. It takes up a lot of space though, and you still have the problem of 2 doubles costing more than a single, and 2 electrical circuits needed.

If getting a steam oven (which cleans with steam and not high heat), would it be better to put the steam oven in the lower position (to allow more heat to escape from the convection oven)?

No. Usually the steam oven goes on top, I've never seen it done differently.

I had been sold on the Wolf E series steam & convection, before reading about the porcelain issues.

If you want you can still get the Wolf combi steam oven matched with another brand's convection oven. The combi steam has been very well reviewed here, and has a stainless interior so it's not affected by the porcelain issues.

It has pyrolosis rather than self-clean--at 905ð!

What is the difference?

My oven also works with pyrolytics - but I have absolutely no idea what that means. The brand is Fagor - it's an excellent, simple oven, unfortunately the company that makes it is in bankruptcy.

Pyrolytic self cleaning has always been the full name of the technology since GE introduced it back in the 60s. They called their high end ovens at the time P7 (some of the best built and most evenly baking ovens ever made, BTW) and that is what the P stood for. I suspect "pyrolysis" is just their way of referring to the same thing, rather than an entirely new technique.

I did self clean on my Miele oven last weekend. The program run for about 2 and a half hours. Only the door felt quite warm. Elesewhere, such as the cabinet, the wood panel the oven sits on and the oven front control panel, was not even warmed up. I mean one would not feel the oven is frying itself when self clean is running.

I have a Miele oven. I clean it at least 2x a month. Never had a problem. In the install for the miele, a hole us required either in the cabinet back or floor to allow air flow. It takes about two hours and when it cools, I wipe down the white ashes left behind.

Good luck!

No trouble thus far (10 years) with my GE Profile range regards to self-cleaning. It does get hot on some exterior areas. The oven vent is at bottom center of the backsplash, directly below the touch panel but the electronics haven't exhibited any failures. Last couple times I ran self-clean I set a small fan blowing across the panel to disperse the heat, although a service tech advised that may not be a good idea as it may interfere with the normal/engineered ventilation path.

Thanks everyone for your input. If I understand correctly, the problem with porcelain chipping is pretty much limited to Wolf at this point, and they may, or may not, have fixed the problem in their new M Series ovens.

All brands are subject to heat-related electronic failures, particularly in a stacked configuration.

Is this a fair way to look at it? If I buy an extended warranty, I'd be less concerned about control board failures than I would be about porcelain chipping.

Yes, that is a good way to look at it. Though I disagree with "particularly in a stacked configuration". Wall ovens are going to fail more than freestanding ranges period, it doesn't matter if there's another one stacked above or below it or not.

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Wed, Jan 14, 15 at 12:06

sjhockeyfan,

Fagor was purchased out of bankruptcy by another Spanish company. They are being sold again in North America.The old company had a great background story. Too bad they didn't share it with people. Bankruptcy may have been avoided. Is your oven still under warranty? If it should be, you may want to check if the new owners are honoring the old warranties.

Grease- not all Wolfs chip but there are many reports on GW.
Funny thing, I planned on an Elux all along and just about the time I was about to purchase, there was a run on elux chipping so I went with Wolf. LOL
Fortunately mine hasn't chipped and is relatively clean(I have used the self clean several times...)
I did have the MDL circuit error which was repaired for free.

Good luck figuring it out.

Alto, we have not seen enough stacked ovens to get a good idea of their reliability, compared to a double oven, the single ovens do have a much better reliability rate.

I would think single stacked ovens would be more reliable due to the fact that when one oven is cleaned the other oven's metal frame and the misc metal parts are not getting the same amount of heat as they would where the ovens are connected together, (double oven).

Another thing to consider is, often when one oven is incapacitated in a double oven,
so is the other oven as they share many common parts, (Control board, alarms , etc). With singles, if one oven goes, you still have the other.

I recall where a poster here had a problem with a door that would not unlock
after self cleaning. It set off an alarm that was loud enough so she did not even want to try the other oven, (even if it did work) naturally that happened just before thanksgiving~~~~~~fortunately we were able to help her and her husband open the door.

Myself I use an Electrolux Speed Oven as my 2nd oven but if I did not, I would have installed 2 separate ovens.

Also removing a double oven from cabinetry can not be a joyful experience, ya thinks?~~~~much easier to remove a single!

Gary

Sorry, HVTech. Joke didn't translate. "Pyrolosis", as you surmised, is just a big word for self clean. Sometimes I forget that jokes don't convey well in typed form--I was making a play on big word, big temperature. Pointing out that Gaggenau's enamel can handle uberhot.

Haha, I see now :)

Wolf double ovens are about $2K cheaper than 2 single ovens, but you have the shared electronics, the potentially greater risk of problems from using the self-clean feature, and the second oven doesn't have convection. I'd rather spend the extra $2K to have the redundancy of a second oven and save $8K or so by buying a normal fridge instead of a SZ.

My current plan calls for a cabinet with stacked ovens. I was originally planning to get a Wolf steam oven along with a Wolf E Series oven until I read about the chipping issue. Now I'm thinking of doing the same thing, but with the M Series oven. Does this make sense, or am I taking too big a risk that the M Series will have the same problems?

The M series will have a couple things going for it.

First, the M series will have the removable bolttom, like my Electrolux (2006 model). (Dumb Electrolux did away with the removable bottom in the newer models)!!!!!

There are a couple advantages to having a removable bottom.

First it makes the oven very easy to clean (Manually) ~~~~just remove the bottom and take it over to the sink to clean it~~~~so self clean not needed as often.

Second, the removable bottom "May" relieve the stress point that some theorize exists on the current Wolf ovens.

Third, we have read very little about porcelain problems with any ovens now,
(except of course Wolf), so one suspects that whatever was done to the other ovens with porcelain interiors, (Electrolux Gaggenau~~~~etc) will be done by Wolf also.

Forth , Wolf after seeing what happened, You can bet money they will put extra effort into avoiding a "Repeat Performance" of the porcelain problem, and this "May have been" the cause of the Delay in the M Series and some of its "Sub models"~~~~They wanna be sure to "Get it Right", this time, ~~~~Ya Thinks?

Gary

Wolf double ovens are about $2K cheaper than 2 single ovens, but you have the shared electronics, the potentially greater risk of problems from using the self-clean feature, and the second oven doesn't have convection. I'd rather spend the extra $2K to have the redundancy of a second oven and save $8K or so by buying a normal fridge instead of a SZ.

M series doubles have convection in both ovens. Double ovens don't have more problems than single ovens, but more problems with them are reported because they are much more popular than single ovens. Also keep in mind that one of the oven heights will be even more awkward than a double due to the extra control panel. Don't forget to factor in the cost of any extra electrical work when figuring the difference between stacked singles and a double.

Some manufacturers ban stacking 2 single ovens. Wolf doesn't say anything about doing that (probably because nobody does it), but they do approve 2 singles placed side by side. They say they must be put in the same opening, with no cabinet material in between them, in order to maintain proper airflow.

I would recommend that you call Wolf before ordering and ask them whether this stacked configuration is approved, and if so, is there anything you need to be aware of

This post was edited by hvtech42 on Thu, Jan 15, 15 at 11:22

What year did the Electrolux chipping get fixed? I have the slide-in induction range, from mid 2011 (only in use for a bit over a year, though).

This post was edited by attofarad on Thu, Jan 15, 15 at 16:50

Thanks dodge59 & hvtech. I'm currently contemplating stacking a Wolf steam oven over a Wolf M series. Do you see this as problematic? I probably could find the space to put them side by side, but it would really cut down on my cabinet space.

Thanks dodge59 & hvtech. I'm currently contemplating stacking a Wolf steam oven over a Wolf M series. Do you see this as problematic? I probably could find the space to put them side by side, but it would really cut down on my cabinet space.

We never did see a lot of posts about porcelain chipping on the Electrolux ovens. We saw 3 in the beginning and the ovens were replace right away, and we never heard from 2 or 3 of these folks again. Then Wekick had a problem , I think a year or two ago, can't quite recall how old Wekicks oven is, (I thinks about 2009 vintage).

Also consider that Electrolux sells far more ovens than does Wolf, (Every Sears store sells Electrolux), so I'm quite confident that percentage wise, the failure of the porcelain was quite low.

Also Wekicks was able to be repaired, where as, (as far as I know), All the Wolf ovens, (with the exception of Wekick's) had to be replaced.

I have a 2006 Electrolux Icon Oven, and never had any porcelain chipping or any problems for that matter, but I have only self cleaned it once, since we have had it.

It just does not get that dirty, It has a removable bottom that I can take out and clean if necessary, that along with
not wanting to give our greedy electric company what it would cost in electricity to clean it~~~~well, we just clean it ourselves.

Gary

>I'm currently contemplating stacking a Wolf steam oven over a Wolf M series

That's is definitely an approved (and popular) configuration and probably what I would do if I were putting Wolf in my own house. The great thing about the combi oven, other than the steam, is that it is nice and small so it preheats quickly. Great for everyday use when you won't need the size of the M series.

Whatever you do stay away from DCS. We purchased a DCS 6burner Range-top, fridge, and wall oven in November 2014. No problem with anything until second batch of Christmas cookies a week before Christmas when the oven temp dropped to 140 . Repairman said we needed a micro temp limiter and another limiter. He said he could probably fix it before Christmas if he could get the parts. Having selected DCS because of offices and warehouse in California we thought we were going to be roasting turkey and baking rolls for a big family Christmas dinner... Not exactly. Sometime last Fall the Fisher and Paykel brain trust closed all their US warehouses and all phone calls for customer service are now routed to New Zealand. The Kiwis working the phones in Wellington are useless. They can tell us they know the parts have been ordered but they don't have them in stock and they cannot tell us when they will be available to ship to the US. We've been without the wall oven for a month now. Crossing our fingers that the fridge and range-top keep working.

Wolf Steam over Wolf M sounds like a dream combo to me...If they ever get the M on the market! I agree with Gary (HI, GARY!!!) that, even though they seem not to have many problems, I think it's a shame Elux no longer has replaceable bottoms, as I think probably all ovens could benefit from replaceable bottoms. In addition to cleaning and replacing the bottom, it provides access to the hidden element. Dacor has a glass cover in the bottom, which I thought was a good answer, or at least they did several years ago.

As far as porcelain issues, I also had problems with the porcelain in 2 Fisher and Paykel ovens (one blue, and one newer model with black interior), so would suspect DCS might have the same issues. I haven't heard of others with this problem, but there aren't many owners here on the forum, and I think F&P has been barely getting by for awhile, so I'm not sure they're selling much.

They didn't replace my 2nd oven, which had electronic as well as porcelain issues, because they even stopped production for a time.They also had trouble finding me willing service people. F&P sent the wrong oven to replace the 1st one, which we noticed after they'd taken oven #1 out. So the guys had to reinstall the old oven, repack the wrong oven, and return another day to start the whole process over again when the correct oven arrived. F&P wanted to pay them only for one trip and one replacement, and it was a long struggle for them to get paid at all, or to arrange to send back the wrong oven. Surprise, surprise, that service outfit didn't want to come get the 2nd oven when it went bad.

I don't relate any of the porcelain issues I had to self-clean. The self-clean in all 7 of my ovens has worked great. The Gagg has the best self clean in terms of getting the glass clear again, too. But the electronics in the F&Ps, the hated Monogram, and the Wolfs all held up fine to self-clean. In at least one of the Wolfs, the porcelain showed problems in a cavity in which I'd never run the self-clean. Since I knew what to look for, I found it earlier in the 2nd and 3rd ovens than in the first. In that one, I think wiping it out after self-clean was the reason I found it, but not necessarily the reason it happened.