Yes, for the same reasons.

Assuming you're switching between the regular oven settings (bake, broil, etc.) and microwave, then you'll likely be switching out at least the metal rack (as you MW) and possibly also the glass tray (which may or may not be not needed for regular oven uses).

It's handy to have somewhere to store these things nearby. Additionally, this oven comes with extra stuff, like its temperature probe, which may be useful to have nearby as well. This drawer can also store pot holders, since sometimes the oven or the stuff you're switching in or out may be hot.

Thanks, chac_mool! Good idea about stashing all manner of hot-stuff stuff in there (like mitts).

mool is not entirely correct ! Miele's speed ovens do not need to have the metal racks removed when using the microwave. It is in fact , one of the few that do not. About the only time I am removing mine is to clean it.

That's interesting, antss. I'd rather leave the metal rack (the "Combi rack") in there -- that saves yanking it in and out as I switch between MW and regular oven functions.

But my trusty Miele instruction book (for # H4082BM) says "do not use it [the combi rack] with the Microwave (Solo) function. This could cause arcing which could damage the oven." (pg. 14). There's a similar warning on pg. 23: "The enclosed combi rack is only suitable for combi functions not the microwave solo function. Do not set it on the oven floor."

My instruction book also says (on pg. 14) that the combi rack can be used with combination programs that use microwave power concurrent with other (regular) oven functions. I haven't ventured to use those combination programs, as yet -- that's why I didn't mention this.

I think the truth in what you're saying is that it is OK to use the metal rack during combination programs, but not when using the microwave alone. Does this seem correct to you?

Do you have some favorite recipes that use the combination programs? Other than searching through the speed oven recipes on Miele's site, I'm at a loss where to find good ones (except from the knowledgeable people here).

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele speed oven instruction book

mool - that is very interesting, so much so I looked up the manual and I think the wording is a bit ambiguous. It sure looks like it says not to use the wire rack on microwave only , but common sense tells me that if it works on combo it'll work on microwave only. Since the only thing different on combo is the addition of radiant heat from a resistance element and that has no effect on microwaves.

It should also be noted that the prior generations 4080 had no such restrictions and the marketing boys loved to tout the fact. There are a few over the range microwaves that have metal rack that can be left in too, so I think it depends on the design. I am also going to check on the magnetron for both generations - I think it's the same, as are the tray and rack.

My guess is that some people experienced arcing during use with the rack and the risk managers are instituting CYA .

FWIW , I do not remove our rack and don't experience arcing with the prior generation.

Fascinating! Thanks for pointing this out. I know nothing of previous generations, including this possible rule change re: H4082BM.

Looking through my manual to see why was I taking the rack out if I didn't have to, I noticed that microwave has seven power levels when its used solo, vs. four power levels when its used in combination modes (see pp. 20 & 39, in the link above).

It wasn't clear what these power levels were, as percentages or whatever, but I figured maybe when used in combination, the microwave uses less power (watts?) so the risk of arcing drops. That was how I made sense of it, more than the manual being clear. Are these power levels different in earlier models?

Have other owners of H4082BM tried leaving the combi rack in the oven, when its used as a microwave on full power (the default when you use the Minute+ key)? Does it arc? Or is everyone else, like me, afraid to try it?

re: power levels - I'll have to check , as I leave mine on full power all the time.

antss
I just experimented after reading this post. There is no sparking/arcing with reheating of the coffee in the MW only mode.

Please get back to us about the wire rack during MW function only regarding possible internal electronics dammage if you can ask the Miele reps about it. The MW does cause arcing if you have metal in there which I have done accidentally during combi modes. I think the metal tray use special type of metal....

I had been following the manufacturer's instruction not to use it during the MW only function only even though I did not see the logic behind it because what you pointed out about the combi mode.

I broke my glass tray. In one of my multi dish crazy ill coordinated dinner preparations, I close the oven door while the glass tray was not completely in the oven. It shattered! I did not get a replacement one and I don't miss it.

I think the glass tray is probably the most worth less thing for me especially if I am allowed to leave the metal tray in the oven. I have never use the stick used to heat fluids. It works fine without it.

I also am able to put my jelly roll pans on the side grooves of the oven without using any racks and I can bake two sheets of cookies beautifully in this oven.

I use this oven as much as my gas oven on the gas range.

It took a week (and three trips to my local store), but I did get a response from the Seattle Miele rep about the different wire rack rules for H4080 and H4082 speed ovens, when microwaving in solo vs. combination modes.

Here are the reasons given:

1. The wire rack is different -- didn't say how or why.

2. The added bottom heating element in H4082, which makes for better pizza crusts, somehow exacerbates microwave arcing problems with the new wire rack. How that could be wasn't specified. Maybe they moved the magnetron, or maybe microwaves bounce around differently in the newer oven's environment. (Those are just my guesses.)

Apparently, microwave power defaults to 40% when in combination modes. It can be lowered from that default setting (presumably to 10%, 20% & 30%, but that wasn't spelled out). This suggests the four available combination power options are the lowest 4 of the 7 options available in Solo mode. Presumably lower power reduces the risk of arcing during combination modes.

Antss, were you able to get a more coherent answer from them?

OMG - I cannot believe how complicated this oven is.

I am the owner -- I won't say proud, not yet - of a Miele 4042, the non-pre-programmed MW/convection oven. And I must say : I Am Confused.

First, it has the most useless manual conceivable. Instructions for using the MW are minimal and for all other modes more minimal still.

I have no idea what the oven can do or how to do it. I try to experiment, but frankly the thing terrifies me. I am astonished to learn that perhaps I don't even have to swap out the metal rack. That's amazing, isn't it? I have actually never owned a microwave before and so to tell the truth, the whole entire concept just kinda scares me.

Is there an "aftermarket" manual for this thing?

And if the wire racks for the 4080 were kosher while those for the 4082 were not, how does this relate to the 4042? I'm guessing 4082:4080::4042:4040? That is, I'm guessing that if the 4082 doesn't want to accept the metal rack in MW mode, the 4042 won't either (and I'm guessing there may once have been a model 4040).

I'm starting to regret not buying the fancier model.

I would really appreciate any references or insight into how to get started learning about and accruing some understanding of how to use this thing.

Thanks!

Here - let's start with this. Just to heat up my tea, is it really true that you have to push buttons multiple times like this: (1) twist dial to MW (2,3) push 'OK' once, twice to minutes (4) push down timer button a long time or multiple pushlets to get, say, 1 minute racked up in 10 sec increments (5,6) push 'OK' twice to get it to start. That's 6 button pushes minimum. Obviously not a huge big deal, but I can rarely get the buttons to respond the first time - they seem happier with a light touch than a heavy one. Is there a trick to this? And can time only be called up in 10 second increments? What if I want, say, 15 seconds?

Someone please tell me I'll get used to this....

Yeah, I'm still kind of confused myself -- and I have the #4082 speed oven, so can't be help with the controls for your different model.

As I recall, the problem with having a metal rack in the oven when the microwave is used at higher than ~40% power arose after the lower element was added to the #4082 model. Not real clear how or why that would cause a problem, except maybe it affects how microwaves bounce around in there. So, if your model has a lower element (good for pizzas), you may want to take the metal rack out when using microwave solo. Your manual should say -- mine did -- or ask at the store.

I haven't heard of an aftermarket manual, but (if sales are high enough) that might be a good idea...

Still, here are some ways to get more information:

Others have written useful posts about using Miele's Speed Oven and its inscrutable modes; search this forum using the search box at the bottom of your screen to find these.

If you get to a Miele showroom (or if a sales rep visits your appliances store), you may be able to ask questions or see demonstrations.

Finally, it may help to look at Miele's online speed oven recipes -- see link below. Those recipes show how they use combination mode for various dishes; experiment on your own from there.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele online recipes

I've had the 4042 Chef model for about 6 weeks now. I kept the metal rack in for at least the first 3 weeks before bothering to read the manual and had no sparking or other ill affect when using in microwave only mode. However, after reading the manual, I removed it and only rely on the glass shelf. I purchased a silicone sheet for the glass shelf for easier cleaning.

I was a bit intimidated at first but decided just to start cooking in it. I have made a great roast chicken, baked potatoes, muffins, brownies, and a cake in it with no problems whatsoever. I did buy a few extra pyrex pans for use when in combination mode, but I have used a cookie sheet in normal convection bake mode as well. So far it has cooked beautifully.

The combination bake/microwave setting only cooking up, but overall cooking in the Miele is not that much different than a normal oven.

Thanks, chac_mool, for the link to the recipes. Even *That's* confusing! I randomly looked at a recipe for satay, the first I encountered. It said to select first a program then something else.... I can't even tell if that's something relevant only for the 4082. What a mess!

I don't know how large sales would be but there most definitely is a need for a manual on these ovens! I'm not sure I've ever encountered a machine so confusing.

Wow, motley - you used that metal rack on MW? That's kinda amazing to me. I thought it was just a given that any metal will overheat and start arcing.

Does anyone else find the absence of a rotating device in the bottom of the machine problematic?

Those lower elements mentioned, are those physical coils that would be present just like exist on the top of the oven? If so then the 4042 does not have them (mine doesn't at least).

I have searched this forum for info in the absence of the manual, but haven't actually found much of interest. I know searching on GW is also a problem but I used google too. If anyone happens to remember or has clipped any past threads I'd appreciate links to them.

� Can you program the machine to do a little of this mode and then a little of another mode? e.g., say, 5 minutes of defrosting and then 10 minutes of combo ovening?

Does anyone find that switching between racks when you've been using the oven already is problematic? For example, I used the oven the other day and then wanted to MW, but I was afraid to slide the cold glass tray into the hot oven -- would that shock the glass? Likewise, I'd used the glass tray in the oven and it was hot but then wanted to MW something, but was afraid the hot glass would melt the plastic container I wanted to put in... frustrating! How do others manage this?

My old regular, over-the-cooktop microwave had a metal rack as well. It had to be installed in the right way or it could spark. Probably why I assumed it was not a problem in the Miele. After removing the metal rack, I found I don't really need it.

Just made a gooey butter cake. Cooked in 45 minutes, exactly in the middle of the recipe's cooking range. Turned out awesome. I placed the glass 9x13 pan directly on the silicone sheet on the glass tray, which was in the already hot oven, and it worked perfectly. After removing the cake, I put in a small pan holding frozen leftovers to let them thaw in the residual heat. I may feel more secure with the silicone pad in there, not sure I would place a cold (out of the refrigerator) directly on the hot glass.

I didn't use the combi mode on the gooey butter cake as the center is suppose to remain gooey, but I did brownies with the microwave feature and it made great brownies in less time than the directions.

So interesting about the metal and MW!

Do you find it a problem not to have the carousel in the MW? Does anyone add one; I'm guessing you can buy them after-market.

I've never used those silicone pads. Do you just leave it on the glass tray always and it serves as a middling-ground for temperature? That is, security against cracking should you put something hot or cold on its oppositely-heated tray?

aliris - the carousel isn't necessary in some micros (like Miele) because the magnatron has a "stirrer stick" that moves the waves around instead of moving the food.

The first microwaves were of this design (Radarrange).

I leave it in mostly for ease of cleaning. I can pull it out and wipe down easier than cleaning the glass tray. Silicone mats provide some protection from heat transfer. Many new trivets and potholders are now of silicone. It is good for temps up to 450 or so. I can put cookie dough directly on it without the need for pans.

Cookie dough directly on the silicone? You mean it is like a baking tray? And also a trivet? OK....

I think I will call Miele and ask about this metal pan thing.

Coupla things:

Microwave magnetrons are either on or off, there is no "power" level, per se. When you select microwave power, you are actually setting duty cycle, or the ratio of time that the magnetron is energized to the time that it is off. 40% power means that for every minute of microwave time selected, the magnetron will emit for ~24 seconds.

Also, if you take a look up in the ceiling of the Miele, you will see a round cover behind the broiler element. This cover protects the deflector or stirrer antss was talking about. It is *very* effective, to the point that there is just no need for a turntable in the speed oven. If you place a bowl of chili in the oven and turn on the microwave you can actually see the moving pattern as the beam is deflected around the cavity. I have found the Miele to be a very effective and even-heating microwave.

I am somewhat dismayed to hear about the restriction of having to remove the wire rack just for microwaving. I find it kind of funny that it would be necessary when it is okay to have the rack in there for combi mode cooking. Perhaps it would be worthwhile to simply observe the unit for signs of arcing and if you don't see any then blow off the warning? I mean, if it isn't arcing, then it isn't hurting, right?

The silicone sheets have been popular for years now. Silpat is the best known brand name. I put one on the glass tray for easy cleaning and to protect the glass from scratching. Yes, you can cook directly on the sheet as nothing sticks to it. I believe they are safe up to 450 or 500 degrees.

Yes, it would be good to know more about what this change is about -- if its motivated by some lawyer somewhere, or by actual change(s) in the newer model that truly warrant the rule change. It is odd that Miele would make this change when one of the selling points previously was that you didn't have to take out the rack -- so why would they now say you must, if you really don't?

Thanks for the clarification about power levels really meaning percentage of time on during a given time window. It may be that sufficient time off when power levels are at 40% or below means that insignificant damage can occur. This is one of several things that aren't clear to me.

For example, I'm not also clear if the metal racks are different between these two models, or if the only relevant change is the added lower heating element -- or why that change would matter. While it seems plausible that "if it isn't arcing, then it isn't hurting" anything, I'm not certain that is actually the case, either -- maybe it just looks that way until something breaks because you did that.

OK, I think I have some answers. I did call Miele and after several irritating conversations and several call-backs (though all in one day, to their credit), I finally reached a seemingly fairly-knowledgeable "parts specialist" named Theodore: 800-843-7231. He has an extension I wrote down elsewhere if someone needs it....

Bottom line, according to Mr Theodore: When Miele redesigned their machines recently, they redesigned the metal racks. Whether due to chemical or physical changes, he could not say but the upshot is the new racks for the 8042 and 4042 machines (Super and non-Super chef respectively) *can no longer be used in MW-only mode*. There evidently never was a 4040 machine, analog to the 8040 - that is, there ever only was an older SuperChef wire rack to be had, not Chef.

However, the old wire racks from the 8040 are interchangeable in all newer machines (8042 and 4042). Mr T offered to send me one, which seemed mighty decent of him.

Asked why the metal racks are kosher on MW/combi but not on MW alone, he said .... darn it all; I'm forgetting his answer. We all know the claim is that [using the old rack for] MW/combi is fine while for full-MW it is not; that MW is at 40% in combi mode vs 100% in full-MW mode. But as to why it should matter, I went round and round with him on this so much I can't remember his claim now -- I believe he said the internal configuration of the magnetron had changed such that the MW reflected differently now?

I don't know what a magnetron is and asked him to explain but he deflected that question.

But he stated that things like foil and metal containers still could not be used in MW-only mode. Why the rack could be but these accoutrements could not still wasn't enormously clear; just was, I guess. That is, the foil and pans would arc, harming the machine, though the old racks would not. Bottom line is that clearly either the alloy or physical configuration of the old rack (only) renders it permeable or reflective to the MW's.

Mr T also noted that if you use the (old) metal rack in MW-only mode it is subject to heat-transfer from what you are heating so to be very careful.

Other useful info:

> do not set a vessel on the bottom of the interior when MW'ing - won't harm the machine, but MWs won't reach the material for heating b/c they need to bounce and on the bottom of the cavity the reaching MW's won't be bouncing.

> Do not set cold glass plate in hot oven; tempering insufficient to overcome that sort of shock.

> Careful of slamming door on glass plate! (a poster here noted this $175 mistake already).

>>>I wish I had taken notes. He did invite a call back. And he and several others suggested they have a hotline for questions about how to use the oven, either technically or gastronomically.

I was rather astonished to be scolded by not one but three people, at rather great length - argued with, defended against, denied - that their manual is *TERRIBLE*. I couldn't believe it, over and over first one then another said "whenever I need information I go straight to the manual...." and offered to help me find the info, etc. In fact I have tried to find various and sundry information in the manual several times to no avail; they were completely unwilling to hear from me that in my experience the manual was functionally useless.

I presumed mine was a fairly conventional view; I just presumed as people dealing with both the manual and others trying to, that they must field dozens of complaining calls regarding it every day. Instead they defended the thing, saying they sold the appliance in 70 countries and so couldn't generate a functional manual for them all (why not? But I don't believe they have one for even the motherland, personally). It was so bizarre -- why not just file the complaint in the circular file; why *argue* against it? Especially when it's so patently obviously true. IMHO.

Anyway, as it seems Miele has never heard the complaint that the manual for these ovens is problematic, and as several have complained here about it, I invite you in your copious spare time to phone Miele and register a complaint. They won't fix the problem until they hear there is one. I cannot believe how many seemed to feel this was a seminal reference manual. I think the users guide to my $5 wrist watch is better (and it's clearly written by someone whose native language is not even Germanic).

HTH

Thanks, Aliris19!

Very helpful information. Its hard to see what could have prompted Miele's change to a different metal rack that must now be taken out for microwave solo mode.

Hope they saved a whole bundle on them new racks, for all the bother this creates for everyone.

aliris, you have a great way of expressing things; and, it's drole! When calling Miele people, I also found that it seemed they had self-esteem / self-confidence combined with certainty in their employer in every way. Perhaps there are personality traits the recruiters select for, which bias the selection. Earlier this week I posted that Miele people had had brainwashng; your way of explaining it is clearer because you relate of three people forcefully telling you to consult the manual and also not hearing that you, a scientist who knows how to read, did do this and got unsatisfactory results. I do think Miele is a good company, with good people, and the products are good too, but it's surprising there is such over weaning confidence that doesn't listen. Here is a counterexample: in 2009 I told AApl people a few times about a number of inconsistencies, and within a week I received a call from an employee whose job was to listen and make corrections, and in the next season I saw a few changes were made.

Called Jeff at our local appliance store; he called Miele and the Miele rep called me just now.

Here's what he says (before I forget), bless his little heart:

The new metal rack (for the H4082 model) is larger than the old one was; the new rack also uses a square stock, rather than round metal wires. The old smaller rack used to rest on top of the glass tray. The larger new rack rests in grooves on the wall of the oven's sides, so extends the full inside width of the oven (same as the glass tray, and more like a regular oven rack). A reason for the change was that Miele felt the old metal rack was too small for people.

Because of the new rack's larger size, as well as its more squared metal wires, it needs to be taken out when using MW Solo mode.

Generally, once Miele makes a change, the previous part is discontinued. So it is not clear if it will be possible to order the older metal racks once they're gone.

Thanks to all for confirming the Meile manuals are severely lacking! Meile's motto is Immer Besser or always improving. The appliances may be high quality but their manuals are a joke!! I could not believe they recommend adjusting the heat for various setting but include not one recipe as an example. I remodeled my kitchen with Meile appliances then upgraded our apartment with a kitchen aide version of the speed oven. It is SOOOO much easier to use and the manual puts miele's to shame.

We broke our glass shelf. It was had to keep clean with plain soap and water as Meile insists is adequate. What have others done to replace the glass shelf? I read about silicone mats but am sure items to be cooked need to be elevated and NOT placed on the floor of the oven.

I just joined the forum. It's great but why don't they include the year in the posting date. Thanks to all who help!

I have a Miele H4082 BM speed oven. Bought in in Jan 2011 installed in March 2011 and started using in May 2011. Microwave stopped working last week. Called Miele and they said out of warranty, billable service call. Service tech is charging $150 just to look at it, plus whatever it costs to repair. Any known reasons why Microwave might stop working so soon? Like the rest of the product (Master Chef cooks whole chickens and 6 pound roast beef to perfection) and baking cookies and cakes are great.

Did you run the microwave with the metal rack in the oven, or with the glass dish?

I have a Miele speed oven H6600BM that I have use for about 3 years and always microwaved with the metal rack in the highest level. Recently one spot on the rear right corner of the rack has started arcing. I now remove the rack to microwave. So if you MW with the rack, keep an eye on it. Apparently there’s a reason that the manual says to remove it.