I would go with a low cost Bosch any day. f.y.i., I think a large part of the history of Bosch bashing found on the web was due to a smear campaign. The more modern form of "mixed reviews" are balanced and fair.

I totally agree with davidro1. For under $1K it's Bosch all day any day. The only reason not to consider a Bosch is if you just can't make the racking work for you. I've owned two Bosch DWs, one KA, one GE and one Hotpoint. I liked the KA too, but it was relatively noisy. The GE and Hotpoint were old, so not relevant to the discussion.

I DISAGREE with david and scout.

Bosch used to be a solid value play if you wanted a really good DW but didn't want to pay Miele's price tag. This was twenty years ago.

10 years ago the corporate masters at Bosch started massaging things to earn more $$$. Nothing wrong with that to me, but, how do you suppose they did it if they didn't raise their prices significantly?

That's right, quality has gone down, especially in the last 5yrs. This is not boschbashing or a smear campaign. I've been in the kitchen business longer than I can remember and I even own a couple of Bosch DWs. There is more and more plastic - the cheaper variety that looses its color or breaks easier than they used to be. I believe button and switch quality has been lessened too.

They still build some top notch units. The ones from Germany are still really good, and the price reflects it - $1000+.

Are they still a good value? My take is no, given that their price is not that much lower than a miele when comparing like to like - which is very hard to do.

There are PLENTY of happy Bosch DW owners out there though.

So what do you recommend, antss? I don't disagree that the quality has gone down. But that's an industry trend. It's interesting, because I had originally typed about how I thought my old Hotpoint was actually well built because it lasted and at least did it's job. But I revised it to ay they're not relevant because those days of building things to last are over. So, it's all relative. Bosch used to very close in quality to Miele. But not any more. I give you that. But relative to everything else under $1K, where does it sit? I think that's what david and I are getting at.

I got 2 Bosch 800 PLUS dishwashers (with the 3rd rack from Germany) for $900 and love them. They are super quite and VERY well made, you can feel the quality when you open the door. My inlaws have a 500 Series bosch (CR Rated Best Buy) with they also like a lot. Its just a little louder than ours, does not have all the programs, and no 3rd rack.

I looked at the Miele's. They hold the dishes better but i couldn't justify the price. I also didn't care for how the retailers of Miele hide behind the "oh we can't lower the price because we'll get in trouble with Miele". I'm also a retailer, so it takes one to know one.

We got a very good deal on the Bosch's from Plessers, about $500 off each after a rebate on clearance.

I did call bosch Customer service to ask a question. the girl was very helpfull answering. I hung up with her, and he took it upon herself to call me back when she forgot to say something. I was impressed with the service.

antss is looking at the details. I cannot disagree with the details. For The Record, I'll state that my positive general stance remains unchanged.

Years ago when the internet was a baby there were a lot of fishy smelling "reviews". This may be non-obvious so I'm bringing it up. (Note that antss did not contradict anything about this).

So, antss has made a case which may cause some discomfort. Bosch is good but not as good.... umm it's ultimately going to make most new buyers go: "oh no, now I'm scared." For The Record, I'll state that my positive general stance remains unchanged.

What will be a best mid price buy in 2012? Not a Miele.

To answer the OP question that was in the title of this thread....Yes.(IMO)

>Miele makes fantastic appliances.... built to a standard, not price.

100% truth!! I couldn't agree more. One of the few companies that probably spend more on researching how to build a good product than researching how much the typical consumer is willing to spend.

>Bosch makes SOME good dishwashers, they also make some real junk.

I would agree with this, except I would also state that "the real junk" that bosch makes is not any junkier than the "real junk" made from most of the other brands. MOST Bosch are pretty good. It is only the really cheap line they produced mainly for big box stores, that is not very good. Bosch units range from those cheap units I mentioned all the way up to *almost* as good as miele. The 500 (mid line)series bosch is amazing bang for buck, I am positive that this is the best deal under $1000.

>I feel Kitchenaid builds a dishwasher for less than $1,000 that is built better than the Bosch models that are less than $1,000.

Absolutely 100% disagree. In my opinion, Kitchen aid is not in the same league as Bosch as far as build quality goes. They may wash as good, but the quality of the unit and the materials in the Kitchen aid is inferior to all but the cheapest bosch's. Fact is, KA shares many of their parts from the same parts bin that goes into their $300 whirlpools etc. Take a look at a mid line or higher bosch and any kitchen aid before it is installed behind cabinetry and tell me that the bosch appears to be lesser quality?

Bosch also has an inline water heater which is vital to maintaining an accurate and constant water temperature. In line heating also allows for plastics to be placed on bottom rack.

As for the smaller interior dimensions of the german brands, it depends on the dish's you use. Since the tines are placed closer together in the euro units you may be able to fit as many or more dishes. At times I really load my DW, stacking dish's literally on top of dishes and things still come out not only clean, but sparkling clean as tho they have been hand buffed.

The only reason to choose a KA over a Bosch would be if for some reason you require an exposed heating element for drying, or the larger interior dimensions, or you simply can not make the racking work in the euro units (which usually is just a matter of training to get used to).

>That's right, quality has gone down, especially in the last 5yrs. This is not boschbashing or a smear campaign. I've been in the kitchen business longer than I can remember and I even own a couple of Bosch DWs. There is more and more plastic - the cheaper variety that looses its color or breaks easier than they used to be. I believe button and switch quality has been lessened too.

This is probably true, but as others have said the same holds true for all other brands, with possibly the exception of miele. I would still say Bosch (and asko) are still second in line to miele. KA, after that.

>There are PLENTY of happy Bosch DW owners out there though.

This is true. It is ranked at the top or near the top of most consumer publications.

I'm just a regular joe-schmoe who installed a KA Kude a couple of months ago. I cannot compare to the Bosch and Miele as I've never used them but decided on the KA after a year of reading on this board and shopping at various dealers. I bought it based on the reviews, personal experiences of friends, and the features I wanted. MY KA has the side vent, but I've never seen it venting steam onto my cabinetry. MY KA is very quiet. I can barely tell when it's on. I run it daily as we are a family of six and it cleans my dishes extremely well. After several years of using a DW that was in sore need of replacement, I was shocked at how well it cleaned compared to what I was used to, despite me just scraping food off and not rinsing (I had to rinse my dishes and practically hand wash them and they'd still sometimes be dirty coming out of my old DW).

I bought my KA on sale during the holidays and paid about $550 for it though it normally was closer to $800-900. I cannot attest to its long term reliability but I did want to address your concern about the steam/venting that had been posted about on this board in the past. I do not have that problem. I would not discount the KA for that reason alone.

water vapor is invisible. Under some circumstances it can be seen.

water vapor rising from a vent is a permanent source of humidity, localized, and bad for wood and wood products at that spot.

Alto I have a Miele Optima, and like it, there is just too much BAD info, and I mean Bad info here in GW, about the KA vent problem.

That was a malfunctioning vent, on one , maybe a couple, alto I "remember" only one actual occurrence. That vent was not supposed to open until hours after the DW was done with its cycles.

To Condemn every new KA DW because of that one problem, then should we do the same because of the bad Miele above???

Gimmie a break, and everybody else here too!

Before the Miele , I had several KA DW's and all were great machines!!! I bought the Miele because of the upper cutlery tray, KA did not have that back then, if they had, then I would have compared the 2 very carefully, with price and discounts certainly being in the mix.

If you just read all the posts here, you will see that the KA DW's get much more consistently good reviews than do the Bosches, the reviews for those are all over the place, with some being "Really Foul"!!!

Gary

I like Fisher Paykel Dish Drawers. They get the dishes clean and the drawer style works well for my household.

I would not use the extensive features that set Miele apart. All I'm after is clean dishes in an easy-to-use and reliable machine.

"Note that antss did not contradict anything about this"

my lack of comment should not be construed one way or another.

I have not seen anything that amounts to a smear campaign against bosch any more than one against miele DWs. Bad reviews are just bad. There are likely to be more bad reviews on boschs because:
1.They sell more units or did?
more chance to have a bad experience

2.They are lesser quality -
more prone to problems and coupled with #1 equals more of a noise from unhappy owners.

3. they are less customers service oriented -
so when you do call about a problem you get slotted into the "go away mill" because you've just called a gigantic multi-national that is more beholden to the stock market. Miele is still a family business and is more nimble and and still takes quality seriously because their name is on the product.

4. and this is most important: I feel they don't deliver good value for money. They spent years making their bones on quality DW's that were a bit less $$$ than miele. Then they decided to "cash in" on their name and things have been declining ever since. Just like Kitchen Aid.

KA used to be the top of the heap in the 60's-70's when Hobart built them like tanks. Then the deal makers stepped in, and not being a charity, they had to figure out how to pay for the acquisition.

First page outa the corp. raider bible: cut costs.
Page two : cut costs some more, and you can guess the rest.
KA DW 's are not the mighty units that they were then.

BUt, how much did one of those cost back then? Several hundred dollars and they were VERY costly. You paid the freight because you new they worked and would last decades and thought paying for quality (real) was worthwhile.

Miele now occupies that position and $1400 +/- is like a 300-400 dollar DW of that era. But, our parents(grandparents) somehow failed to impart this value onto the next generation(s).

We now seem to simply want the lowest cost item and want it TODAY, delivered free, and it needs to be the biggest, fastest, most shiny, and prettiest DW in the magazines. Oh, and it needs to work well too, and my friends need to validate my choice all for around half a week's pay.

"What will be a best mid price buy in 2012? Not a Miele. "

agreed, BUT they do make a strong case for "best buy" if you want a hard working DW that will last over a decade. Its not just the acquisition cost that needs to be considered !!!

i agree with fori. F&P dishdrawers were not in the initial query. But, their price is still high.

i partially agree with antss. About the money tradeoff. If buying highest quality, Miele is a good bet.

Long ago, telephone answering machines were expensive.
Long ago, microwave ovens were expensive.
Two or three hundred or more. Twenty five years ago.

Wall ovens cost a lot less now too.

I think it is high time that DW prices came down.

Thank you all so much for your views. This is very thought provoking.

Can anyone elaborate on the racking of the Bosch? I do plan on going in person. But right now, I'm focused on our lighting for the house and picking out the outside brick, etc. I'd just like to know a brief blurb on why it's so different from Miele or KA before I head out there.

I just want a DW that will:
1. Clean and dry efficiently
2. Be quiet since our kitchen is open to the living area
3. Has an adjustable top rack
4. Has hidden controls
5. Will run and not give me any problems

It's the number 5 that's holding me up because I can't narrow down a brand/model that will give me 1-4 that I won't pay an arm and a leg to achieve number 5 also. I'm leaning towards a Bosch 500 or 800. But after reading above, I'm still confused!

And I haven't even started on the other appliance I'm conflicted on...refrigerators. Thank goodness I'm pretty solid on the ranges I'm considering!

The main difference between American stuff and the rest of the world is size. Us Americans super-size everything. The racks on European brands tend to have tines that are closer to together so big fat plates, bowls, cups and mugs can be tough to fit. I have to admit that in my Bosch everything is a little tighter fit than my KA was. But I found a way to make things work for my stuff. I have the 500 series, I think a DLX model. It meets 1-4 for me. And with 5, you can get that with anything, because you never know. Better brands have lemons and bargain brands can have gems. But I think it's an excellent value and it has met all my expectations. I think mine was right around $800 after rebates.

A question I'd like to know is who manufactures the electrical parts that Miele uses in their dishwashers? Bosch? Siemens? Miele? If Bosch supplies Miele parts, as they have for Audi in the past, risk of failure is not negligible. And I can attest that at least one Miele Optima is not immune to failure.

If a part fails the condition has to be diagnosed by the repair agent, the part ordered, shipped, and then installed. Time between establishing repair visits and having them, and part shipment time, will provide opportunities for significant practice in hand dish washing.

My view is that one should evaluate apparent general quality, reputed cleaning competency, and suitability of the configuration for your typical dishwasher loads, along with establishing the price automatic dish washing is worth to you. Then make a selection. I doubt any of us can know the true frequency of repairs of competing units. Consumer Reports can, at best, only sample their readership for voluntary responses.

kas

>I'm leaning towards a Bosch 500 or 800. But after reading above, I'm still confused!

Just curious, why are you confused?

Miele is the best, no arguments. If you don't want to go that high, if you are like the vast majority of people who buy a Bosch you will be very happy and it will fulfill all requirements you listed. A 500 series is great value.

david et al - the point I am trying to get across is that the Highest Cost DW (or any product for that matter) is not always THE MOST EXPENSIVE one.

One needs to take into account total ownership cost of the item's lifetime.

Let's say you you save 600 bucks on the bosch vs. the miele , but you have to replace the bosch 10 years in? You'll spend another 800+ on a replacement which will amount to a $200 premium over the "more expensive" miele.

You have also forgone the subjectively better fit and finish and user experience you would have gotten with the more costly unit. More features may add value to the equation. Also, some people place value on brand recognition. All of this is hard to quantify especially in terms of $$$ - but it has value to some people.

There's also the tree hugger's position to consider. Where is that DW carcass going that was replace earlier???

On the other hand, that new unit bought early allowed someone in NC to retain their job.

We can debate this all day , every day with no clear cut correct answer.

A $300 no name black friday cut price sale of the century DW with free delivery and a toaster and $10 starbucks card thrown in for good measure will clean your dishes just fine. Will it see the end of the decade ? Prob. not. Will it allow you to watch a movie in the open room adjacent to your kitchen ? Nope. But it will clean, and it's "affordable" and arguably a good value.

Would a entry level or step up bosch be better? Certainly in all areas except $$$. Easy to talk yourself into a few hundred dollars for : quiet, or stainless steel, or that "German Quality" made in NC , USA.

The one could step up to "real quality" for a few bucks more and have the same conversation.

Then we can move up to the "best" level for a few bucks more than that.

It's really up to the end user to decide for themselves how much and at what level added quality and creature comforts are worth to them.

If we ever get around to installing some form of life cycle tax or end-of-life recycling incentive (tax to the manufacturer), then Miele DW's will win out, because their life cycle is long.

Point taken, antss. But the assumption that it needs to be replaced in ten years is a big assumption. Certainly one I'd never put money on. There's no way to tell exactly how long any appliance will last, be it 5, 10 or 20 years. At then end of the day, it may come down to cash. For someone who's cash strapped (who isn't these days?), you can't worry about TCO as much. Otherwise you'd never get your project started, much less done. Some people just don't have the means. The only fact in all of this is the OP asked specifically for a recommendation under $1K.

I may be the exception, but I had a Miele DW ~ 8 years ago. Nice unit, very quiet, top silverware shelf. All in all a nice unit. Problem was there was a defect in the stainless. It rusted through after ~ 3 years. It was impossible to get Miele to honor their warantee; heck it was impossible to even get a call back from them. Finally junked the thing when the water leaking thru the defective metal shorted out the wiring and took out the control board.

Basically there is a bunch of hype about Miele, but it is unwarranted in my experience. They don't honor their guarantee, and their design (which allows a water leak to cause major damage to the appliance) is pathetic.

Needless to say, I'm never buying anything Miele again. Also interesting that the cheap HomeDepot Maytag DW I got as a quick replacement when the Miele died did a far better job of cleaning dishes than the Miele ever did (but it was noisier).

Your Miele experience may vary, but you had better hope that you never have a major claim against them.

"defect in the stainless. It rusted through after ~ 3 years."

unacceptable

"It was impossible to get Miele to honor their warantee;" sic.

Strictly speaking the warranty is 2 years, so if one wanted to get technical - you had no warranty. HOWEVER - I find it hard to imagine that the engineers in NJ and Germany didn't want the unit to see what the heck caused the problem.

There's nothing really wrong with the design of the units - water hitting control boards will ruin all of them. Sealing them against any water intrusion is next to impossible and would be prohibitively expensive both for initial production and any subsequent service. The unit should not have leaked into those areas - so you've got a legitimate beef - it's just not with the DESIGN.

"Basically there is a bunch of hype about Miele"

I disagree - there is hype to be sure , but every product has that - even the Maytag you subsequently bought. Miele delivers more often than not, but by no means has a perfect track record - just better than most , more often.

I have personally witnessed them replace a washing machine well after warranty expired because the drum bearings blew out. They wanted the unit to see what happened as the duty cycle of those is supposed to be well beyond everything else in the machine.

Was your unit purchased new from an authorized dealer that does more than a handful of sales in a year ? Where was (s)he when the problem arose. Part of the "program" is that the dealer is supposed to advocate for you.

scout - your point about the bottom line $$$ is spot on and I totally agree.

- but -

I think that people often fail to really assess why a price is higher on a given item. It's not always overpaid employees, lavish perks or mile high profits. Even when they do "the best" may still not be the best option for their situation.

Several of you have mentioned the rack system in the Bosch or Miele DW . . . I don't have a DW now and am adding one and was considering a Bosch panel ready (although not sure yet if it will be 18 or 24) I have yet to see these DW in person (guess I don't shop in the right stores). If someone has stoneware dishes such as the Pfaltzgraff brand which are kind of thick compared to my more delicate fine china or my other set of everyday dishes made by Johnson Bros, does that mean they won't fit in between the tines of the Bosch or Miele? Thank you.

All this experience tells me that Bosch, Kitchenaid, and Miele have one thing in common. CYA lack of customer support. This protects the mfgr when design flaws are present from future lawsuits. Looks like the class action against Whirlpool might break this cycle.

Just wanted to correct some misinformation out there. KA does not have a vent problem. There was one model of KA dishwasher that had a side vent that a GWer complained of. Most of them don't have this vent. I bought two and neither of them have it. . .

I have never had a dishwasher that I was able to do much other than sanitize dishes in. Every dishwasher I have owned has to have plates washed, essentially. Our current dishwasher, which is a few years old but not expensive (temp house and before I found GW), is pathetic. Finish tabs help but DH is trained to fill his oatmeal bowl with hot water when finishing so I can scrub the oatmeal off before loading ;)

If the KA cleans better than that, I will be happy. I bought it for the drying and I was over budget if I did the Miele. We also have two going into our new house so price was an issue . . . will report back on all appliances (KA fridge/freezer drawers, SZ all fridge, Wolf rangetop, Electrolux oven and speed oven and two KA dishwashers (oh and a Hoshizaki ice maker which I owe completely to this board) after installed ;))

I am not an expert but I have had both a Miele and a F/P dd in the last 6 yrs in my new home. I love my dish drawers. I think my Miele was a lemon.

The dish drawers really suit a family with kids like mine. I run the top drawer 2x day and the bottom drawer every other day or so. And so easy on the back. My dishes are always clean.

There is *definitely* a difference in brands. We bought a new condo with a "builder grade" SS Whirlpool dishwasher. It had all the supposed features - heated dry, hard food disposal etc. It never got anything clean even with the most expensive pouch/puck detergents, and it never dried anything properly even on heated dry. At only 16 months old (just nicely out of warranty), the motherboard died. That's about $250 for parts and labor to replace, on a DW that costs about $350 new.

We replaced it with a Bosch for $700 delivered installed from a local appliance store. The Bosch at least has a 5 year parts warranty, and from the start it washes everything SO CLEAN, without even pre-rinsing. With the Whirlpool we pretty much had to wash the dishes before the dishwasher could wash them.

And despite the fact that it doesn't have a heated dry, we use the extra heat setting and at the end of the cycle when the light comes on everything is nice and dry - much drier than the Whirlpool heated dry (which made everything hot, but not dry!).

Finally, I was concerned about the filter in lieu of hard food disposal. Well, I have checked the filter basket several times in the past month and it's always clean. So unless you put bone chunks in the washer you won't have to clean that often.

Here is a link that might be useful: Our model

My parents used all Kitchenaid appliances for their new high end build this past year. My Mom raves about all of her appliances but constantly mentions are fantastic her KA dishwasher is. Is was around the $750 price range. No problems at all. I also love KA. Most favorite brand of appliances.

Couldn't be all that high end with KA. KA is middle of road at best. The only must have KA appliance is their stand mixers.

"The only must have KA appliance is their stand mixers."

ugh..................maybe 15-20 years ago.

The desk jockeys have "engineered" the value out of that gem too!

It is available in some mighty cute colors though !

For all those waiting with bated breath...

Examining the solenoid valve assembly at the end of the Optima intake hose shows no sign of being made by Bosch. The part appears to be made by Bitron, a HVAC and automotive part fabricator with plants in several countries.

kas

After a bunch of research and lots of help from this forum nearly 6 years ago, we went with an Asko dishwasher. I have never been sorry. It is very quiet, holds plenty of volume and I have never had one minute of trouble. Hidden controls. I can't remember what we paid for it though :).

We recently redid our kitchen and went with KitchenAid for both the dishwasher and the fridge. Am very pleased with both. The DW is the Superba Series (Model KUDS30FXWH) and came in under $1,000.00. From my vantage point, the interior scheme of the DW was very important as we need to accomodate long-stemmed wine glasses. The configuration of the Kitchen Aid is roomy with plenty of space for utensils, platters, and the top shelf moves up and down to accomodate tall glassware. Miele is nice also but very expensive and do you really want to lay out flatware individually ? I think not.

To add to cchall's post, I've had two Asko DWs over the past ten years and have been very happy with them. My first Asko was a "budget" model, the current one, a few steps up - both perform equally as well.

Laying out flatware into a Miele dishwasher tray and grouping it by type may take more time than stuffing it into a basket, but this time is more than recovered when removing the flatware from the dishwasher and putting it into its divided storage location without having to sort it.

kas

I wouldn't have a KA dishwasher made in the last 10 years in my place today PERIOD !

I wouldn't want to take the risk of it catching on fire, even if it's relatively small -- a burnt house or family is no fun, and a PIA to deal with when it's yours.

My KA Superba is a piece of junk. The board went out, which luckily was under warranty. It's leaked. It is progressively more noisy. The el cheapo builder grade was quieter than this thing is at this time. Now am wondering about Antss comment about fire. Is there an issue with the KA?

Right now I am looking for a new dishwasher.

links to the , um cough, "issue" :

leaders of suit-
http://www.kitchenaidfire.com/

Here is a link that might be useful: news video of problem

I was in the market for a DW a year or so ago. We had bought a Kitchenaid, not top of the line(Superba) with electronic controls but with simple timer and buttons. Never had trouble with the controls but the arms stopped spinning. I cleaned and checked for blockage, but I think the pump was no longer producing enough pressure to spin the arms. Well it was 35 year old so I guess maybe a quieter DW would be an upgrade. My "new" one year old Diamonte does a better job with less water and detergent with a larger capacity because of the silverware tray. The last one was $350 and never required any parts. This one was $700 and I anticipate a long life.

During my research the US made Bosch inline heaters were drawing amps at 110v to heat water and a relay in the door was overheating and melting some components.

^^^

$350 was a princely sum of money in the 70's.

$700 for a miele is a steal today.

"I wouldn't want to take the risk of it catching on fire, even if it's relatively small -- a burnt house or family is no fun, and a PIA to deal with when it's yours."

Antss makes a good point, but as we don't want him posting on here with "Sopping wet clothes", the "Helpful link below should keep him high and dry after the loss of his
"Beloved Dryer"

Gary

Here is a link that might be useful: Something to keep your clothes dry

dodge - better check your meds........again.

No one is talking about dryers here. Maybe you just came from the Laundry Forum and forgot ???

Yor're Right Antss, It was kinda smokie over there, so I couldn't see what forum I was in, Sorry bout That!!!

Gary

Antss thanks for the link to the "issue." Looks like there are quite a few superba models listed. So I guess I need to step up my search for a new dishwasher. Interesting that it is the circuit boards that are catching on fire. When mine was fairly new the circuit board locked up. The repairman thought I had the child safety on. No, the thing just quit. Luckily it was still under warranty.

I purchased the H2O Maytag french door fridge when it was just released. A few weeks after the warranty ran out, the circuit board in the back got so hot it turned black. It had a metal plate over the board, so I guess that's why it didn't catch the wall on fire. Whirlpool, who had just bought out Maytag, were not willing to help in any way. Their customer service person was beyond rude. After the fridge incident Whirlpool appliances were on my do NOT buy list. I wonder if they are having issues with their circuit boards in other appliances.

The video listed on the dishwasher site said that the people who called Whirlpool were basically told too bad. (What a surprise!) No wonder there are so many class action suits.

fairy - the common denominator in your woes?

Whirlpool. Think they even deserve a consideration for anything new ???

Antss the fridge was the last appliance I bought from the Whirlpool Corp. New appliances for me have been Electrolux and Samsung. Have helped my Mom buy appliances and she has not been buying any Whirlpool. Bought the youngest son a washer/dryer set and it wasn't a Whirlpool. Have even steered other customers away from my particular fridge. But have also praised my Electrolux oven to a potential customer. So it was really dumb of Whirlpool customer service. I have two grown sons that are getting married and looking at homes. They will probably get an appliance, as a gift, for a house warming. Guess what brand they are not getting.

We bought the KA KUDS30IVSS in October 2009. It does not have the venting issue that another KA DW line did.

The store we purchased from carried Miele and KA as their 'top' lines. I thought the Miele had a wonderful build quality, but my dishes and cookware simply did not fit. I have a lot of oversized cookware that will literally take up half a rack with one piece. Some of it is tall and was a really difficult fit.

The KA had a much more flexible arrangement, and in that respect has worked out very well for us. When the phosphates were removed from detergents in Jan 2011, I had some cleaning issues that went away when I switched to Finish, as recommended on this forum.

The KA DW is definitely a little noisier now than it was before. 'Noise' is always subjective, but we have an open plan in a small house, and both upstairs (where the DW resides) and downstairs (it is above our master bath) it can now be noticed when the DW is running, whereas before it was almost unnoticeable.

We had recurring issues with the soap dispenser unit which was documented here in other threads, so I won't repeat myself. Poor repairman competence was a major contributing factor to a nine-month saga of why we are on our fourth dispenser unit.

I was told by the original installer that these DWs have an issue with the pump unit failing after about three years. He congratulated us on getting the extended warranty and certainly it was of great use during the dispenser problem.

Now that Miele has finally recognized they need a more flexible loading arrangement, when this KA fails - not if it will fail, but WHEN - we can replace it with a Miele.

The KA is good, but it is nowhere near the build quality of Miele. From the plastic hinges to the rickety sprayer arms, KA just can't compare.

I just bought a new KA to replace a 20 yr old GE in Feb 2013. Should have kept the old one. This one just does not clean. We've had 2 KA techs out and were told that there was no problem with the washer, but because of new gov't regulation ( I live in CA), and having to meet energy efficiency, you have to run the hot water a long time before you start up the machine, they've taken the phosphate out of the dishwashing detergents (which is irrelevant because for years I've used detergent w/out phosphate and still cleaned well in my old dishwasher), etc.. etc.. The tech even said many consumers are filling up landfills with these new washers and are going on Craig's list and ebay to buy used ones.They seem to blame the government regulation for this - well, although I agree that these regulations are stupid because of all these reasons, I don't buy it. Why do they sell a product that won't clean? Very frustrated and now don't know what to do.

Ambb which KA model did you buy?

Ambro - what detergent are you using? Try Finish Quantum tabs and see if that helps.