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could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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Posted by paul4x4 (My Page) on Thu, Oct 29, 09 at 13:37 Follow-Up Postings:
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| Here's a site I used where you can (for a small fee) get information on Chineese and Japaneese porcelain. I used them once, and while they weren't fast, they did come through with some useful information. |
Here is a link that might be useful: Antique Chinese Porcelain
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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I don't know how old you are...but I am no spring chicken and going back 5 generations only gets me to about 1780....at least 150 years from the Mayflower dates. Would love to see the bottom. It's transferware which was not even thought of until the mid 18th century and didn't become widely made until early to mid 19th century. Without touching and knowing if it's porcelain or ironstone nor seeing the bottom, I believe it's an early to mid 19th century English chinoiserie handle less tea cup and saucer. The design appears to be copied from Chinese Famille Rose porcelain. I'll bet with a bit of research you can find a name for the pattern. Linda c |
Here is a link that might be useful: cup and saucer
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| Lindac, Thanks for sharing your knowledge, as I am 52 I agree to the mid 1700's that I know it's been in the family. They are not porcelain in my opinion, from the rim chips it appears much more like ironstone or something of that nature. Here are pic's of the bottom of both  I appreciate any input
Paul |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| I am no expert but to me it seems likely that it could be from the 18th or 19th century. If it's ironstone and not porcelaine you could be right with your thoughts. |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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Hmm....looking more like porcelain... Can you ping the cup with your finger nail and tell me if it rings? |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| Could it be soft-paste? Handleless cups were still made in the 1800s, and transferware would also date from that time. I did a search, and pulled up quite a few "soft paste handleless" |
Here is a link that might be useful: Soft Paste Handleless search
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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Most likely is soft paste....and probably very early...thinking early in the period of transferware....when soft paste was imitating Chinese Exportware. I have a couple of pieces of soft paste...I'll dig them out and look for similarities....even though my saucers are hand decorated rather than transferware. I also think a lot of that stuff called soft paste porcelain is ironstone, because most of the difference in the stuff is in the firing temperature....and the grinding of the "stuff" in the clay body....soft paste is very fragile, compared to bone china or kaolin porcelain...or even ironstone. |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| This looks typical of English Pearlware. Circa late 1700s to early 1800s. Using transfers in blue is typical. It was often manufactured as thin walled items, and the wear on the base rim is not untypical. Enlish porcelain was considered superior to domestic items for a very long time until American potteries eventually became dominant for such items. There was a brisk trade in European goods long after the first immigrants came to the Americas. I have letters from some of my earlier ancestors, requesting family who were going to sail to America to please bring them one item or another, because the goods bought here just weren't as good. If this is as you presented, and it surely looks like it's quite old, your ancestors may have purchased an English import long after they arrived in America. I do not think this was brought over in the 17th century. |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| Soft paste does seem right, it is quite fragile as shown by the chips and dings. That was the reason it didn't seem like porcelain to me. The character on the bottom of each seems like a # "5" to me so I assumed them to be english rather than Chinese so your "imitation of exportware" seems like it could also be right on target. Linda, would this ring when tapped, I will try it when I get home (at work right now). Just wondering, what do you look for to identify transfer work especially on marginal photo's like mine? Thanks again for your expert analysis. |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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If it is vitrified it will ring somewhat when tapped....and hold it up to a light and see if the outline of your hand shows through. From what I know of pearlware, the body of the stuff was yellowish and it was painted with a slightly tinted glaze either cobalt or iron oxide which rendered it "pearly". I am guessing transferware because of the small irregularities in placing the decal on the china...you can see it in the saucer in the border around the panels with the pictures in and in the cup at the bottom where the design making the circle at the bottom sort of overlaps. How nice to have such old family pieces.... Linda C |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| No, pearlware was an improvement over cream ware, in an effort to get a whiter white and was an intermediate state before the evolution to whiteware. The iron oxide was not used in pearlware because it gave a tan glaze, like any iron product and was commonly used in creamware. To get a whiter white, blue is used, just like blueing in laundry or a blue rinse to make grey hair whiter. The picture shown has an obvious blue cast to the glaze, typical of pearlware. Also the Chinese house design is a common motif. It's appears to be either whiteware, or pearlware, and I'm leaning to pearlware. "'China glaze' wares, as perhaps we should call them - or the early pearlwares if this is still preferred - were predominantly decorated in underglaze blue with Oriental designs. One of these, the 'Chinese House' pattern, is by far and away the most popular and commonly found and must have remained in fashion for almost 25years - until the turn of the century at least . One may recognise it instantly despite its many variations by the layout of the pattern. This follows a regular sequence of 'tree-fence-house-fence-tree'. (Terrance Lockett on an article pertaining to Pearlwares) I'm looking a the tree/fence/house/fence/tree on the tea bowl. By turn of the century, He is referring to late 1700s to early 1800s. |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| Last quarter 18th c. to early 19th c. soft. I agree that it is pearlware. The pooling round the inside of the footrim is indication of English manufacture. In the 17th c the English were using redware (pottery) instead of porcelains. The urge to replicate Chinese porcelains began near the middle of the 18th c. This lead to many efforts at a delicately potted, yet sturdy body. So came soft paste wares, using a variety of substances to reproduce, if not the strength of porcelain, at least some of its translucence. The glazes tended to run and pool in application, and the bases of the glazes give off that blue-green inside the footrim and any other places where glaze might run prior to firing. Ithis pooling, incidentally, isn't due to use of the blue glaze-it's in the clear overglaze. I think the confusion about the Mayflower is in the tracing your family back to a certain individual, not to the person who put this cup and saucer into the family heirlooms, who was a descendent of the Mayflower's traveller. Also, although the original Mayflower's wherabouts became unknown after its return to England, there were other ships named Mayflower which may have made the crossing later. |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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Harebell....you are so knowledgeable ! Where have you been hiding? In the garden forums? Don't be a stranger now...ya hear? Linda C |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| Linda C, I have indeed been hiding in the Garden Forums! Good call. I didn't venture over here much but it's a nice place to be. I promise to visit more often. Thanks for the kindly hail! |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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"Harebell" was the clue....it's a long time until spring! Linda C |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| Cool! I'll bet they bought this in New England, rather than Olde England--when clipper ships were the fastest thing going. |
RE: could I have your thoughts on this teabowl & saucer?
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| Thank you for seconding my call of pearlware. It was an obviously old piece. |
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