A Tiresome Wedding

I understand your feelings, I'd say I've had similar experiences. It sounds like you have very mixed feelings about these people. It's not clear to me why a middle aged couple with nearly grown children would go through the hoopla with a second marriage ceremony. That's not in the best of taste in my mind.

In such circumstances, you had two choices - invent a conflict or problem and decline the invite, or show up with your pasted on smile and make the best of it. No need to feel guilty about it afterwards. You went and that was nice, and the experience was negative as you expected.

My mom remarried when my brother and I were young and we witnessed it. I still have good memories of it. I guess I don't necessarily believe that people should be stuck in unhappy marriages because they made some vows. Things (and people) change.

Honestly if you are against a wedding I think it's better not to go. Genuine support is nice but fake support isn't helping anyone. I am getting married in a few weeks and would feel terrible if someone showed up, pretended to be happy for me, ate my food, drank my wine, celebrated with me and then judged me and my choices behind my back.

I feel bad for this bride. It sounds like she doesn't have anyone who genuinely supports her.

Best wishes! I'm sure this situation is far from yours! I doubt anyone will feel obligated to attend your wedding or believe you are indulging in some fantasy 'staring role'.

It's hard to keep playing her supporting players when someone continues to make flaky choices. The whole family sees it coming -- again -- but can't prevent the consequences. We know we will be needed again, emotionally and financially.

The family thought her first DH was immature and irresponsible. He was, and he is. He knew it, and at least had the sense to want no children. She went ahead with her 'dream' of becoming a mother -- then depended on her mother to nearly raise the child while she pursued her career.

After the divorce, her parents, sisters, and brothers-in-law tried to create some stability for her and her DD. Her parents helped her buy a home. Her father and our DS 'filled in' as responsible males in the absence of her DD's vanished father.

No 'lessons learned', a middle-aged woman has chosen a self-admitted screw-up -- and another fantasy wedding. The best man's send-up of the groom beeing 'cured' of all his irresponsible traits by his new bride would have been very funny if he wasn't the man's DS.

I wish we could have stayed home; it really wasn't an option. It certainly would have been less expensive -- in money and emotional exhaustion.

quote...The bride's family has been through another lovely ceremony and reception -- with the bride's earlier (also questionable) choice of husband. This couple has been together for eight years. We were all happy when two wedding dates were cancelled. This was just such an *effort* for everyone attending with smiles pasted on.....

8 years together and they went for the big wedding? no thanks! I'd have sent a card, and wished them good luck....and no cash, either....they should have spent the money on marriage counseling, and done a private ceremony with parents and children...

chi83? have you been co-habituating for 8 years? you must admit an elaborate wedding the second time around is a little silly, esp since they've have issues....

dh and I were married in vegas (my parents lived there) and asked just a handful of local people, and no gifts....it was my second, dh's first....we went back to my parents apt, had homemade cake and champagne...and we were very happy...(that was in 1970) we spent money on a trip back to dh's parents...

Thanks chisue!

Susan, no, not 8 years. I have known my fiancé for a year and a half now. I guess I just don't see how people choose to spend their money as any of my concern. If they want an elaborate second wedding, who cares? The guests aren't paying for it. I think if a guest is bothered or offended, they shouldn't go and save their own money plus the bride and groom's money. Weddings are expensive!

We are spending a lot on our wedding but we only have 20 guests. We are only inviting those really close to us, so it was important to me to cover their travel and accommodation costs (we rented a beach house in Laguna Beach for a week for my out of state family). We are having a very modest ceremony but a lavish reception at a fancy and very expensive restaurant. I want the people who come out to support me to be spoiled a bit as a show of appreciation. We also requested no gifts as we don't need anything.

But that's our choice. People spend their money on lots of things that I will never understand (like shoes!) but if I am not paying for it, it's not my business. Whatever makes them happy, including a second or third wedding! I don't necessary always agree (like several friends who went into significant debt to have a super fancy wedding) but I try to be understanding.

There's always the option not to participate.

If I didn't feel the marriage had much chance of success and/or if I disagreed with how the couple were marrying (big white wedding for a second or subsequent marriage) and/or if the travel and expenses to attend the wedding would make me regret going, I'd just decline the invite.

When my sister was marrying for the 3rd time in yet another BWW (which she paid for herself when Dad put his foot down), I declined to attend. I'd already been through the routine twice before and didn't feel this marriage had any better of a chance than the first two. It lasted 5 years. She's now on hubby #4.

'would feel terrible if someone showed up, pretended to be happy for me, ate my food, drank my wine, celebrated with me and then judged me and my choices behind my back.'

yep.

Ummm... what does BWW stand for???? I don't have a clue, maybe I should start texting, eh?
LOL

I'll 2nd Sylvia's "yep!"
Reading here lately, I'm starting to wonder if anyone is happy anymore, or has any smidgen of a "live and let live" mindset. Sheesh!

I totally agree with you, Sylvia.

BWW = Big White Wedding, from the context.

Chisue, I believe that I can empathaize with you. I have a younger brother who was never loathe to make terrible choices that invariably caused the rest of the family a lot of grief. And four of those choices were his weddings.

We gamely attended all of the weddings: it would have distressed our parents enormously if we hadn't. They never gave up on him, even though all of the siblings had long ago. We were right, as it turns out.

But anyways, attending any of his weddings, though very lovely events,
made me feel a little ill afterwards.

I think we are all missing the points that Chisue said about this couple. The family actually has been supporting them--a lot. It is just hard to imagine a situation such as this, and Chisue is trying to not get bogged down in the details. I am sure Chisue could give numerous details and stories about this situation that would curl your hair.

Chi83, you apparently live close to me. Our daughter married on a mid August afternoon in Dana Point ten years ago, and the evening reception overlooking the marina was delightful. Hope you have equally nice weather and day.

Meh. If I get invited to a wedding, I go. I have a good time, enjoy the flowers and the hoopla (dresses and so on) and call it a good time to hob-nob with people I don't always get to see.

Happiness is hard to find in this world, and even if it can be shared for only a day, then I think we should allow people to share it.

I do understand how you feel, though. The 'it is all nice enough, but really, what does it mean?' feeling.

Dances.

I agree with syvlia and dances 100%. And a little with chisue. It's hard to keep supporting choices you can see will ultimately make them unhappy. But I do!

I guess I always hope that the couple has managed to find the right person this time around...I always feel like a quiet ceremony with family and a couple of close friends is more appropriate but they don't usually ask my advice...

I certainly understand where you are coming from. A granddaughter recently announced on social media that she had found the perfect spot for her wedding next year...and She and her boy friend/ roommate would be getting married..they have a child that will be close to 4 by that time...I thought to myself...the money would be so much better spent if you made a downpayment on a home instead but I didn't because I figure the likely hood of them being together this time next year is even questionable...

Thanks for the replies -- even if you can't agree with my feelings of ill-ease. I'm uncomfortable about appearing to endorse ("support") a looming disaster.

I have no experience with big families. Perhaps it is common to practice 'suspensions of truth'. Where DO you draw the line?

"It's hard to keep playing her supporting players when someone continues to make flaky choices. The whole family sees it coming -- again -- but can't prevent the consequences. We know we will be needed again, emotionally and financially."

Who paid for the wedding? If the parents paid for it, well they can't complain later if the marriage goes south and DD is asking for financial help again. If the couple paid for it, knowing it was a financial strain, then neither one is entitled to get bailed out down the road. Did anyone try to talk them out of having a big wedding....that the $ would be better spent elsewhere...like college funds for the kids. Living together for 8 years and then having a lavish wedding seems a little ridiculous, especially since it was a second wedding.

Chisue, you were between a rock and a hard place, but you probably did the right thing.

I can envision myself being happy for a couple and still thinking that a big hooplah is a bit of an imposition, after their second wedding.

At that point, it just feels attention-grabby, and more about the fun of a big party, and less about the marriage.

Older etiquette didn't allow for Big White Weddings (BWWs) for second marriages, even when the first ended because of a death. So it had nothing to do with being judgmental about the marriage, and was more an acknowledgement that it's "not good form" to ask for so much intense family attention so many times.

If you add to that the feeling that the marriage itself is being entered into lightly--yeah, it's probably better to stay home.
(that's one of the reasons, I think, it's bad form to have such a huge hooplah--it forces people into looking as though they're making a statement if they opt not to attend. So instead of saying, "I'd rather not," they end up looking as though they're rejecting you, or making a statement about the marriage, one which they'd rather not make)

Brother in law went to the altar four times... this one has lasted for 11 years to date. Perhaps he was just getting too old in his mid-60's? One of his brothers took a pass on attending, stating he made it to the first three... and he would wait for the next one!

See, I think it's beyond rude to say that.

But I think it should be OK to not attend, and not have people assume it's because of any sentiment like that.

'Older etiquette didn't allow for Big White Weddings (BWWs) for second marriages, even when the first ended because of a death. So it had nothing to do with being judgmental about the marriage'

so it's being judgmental merely about the wedding?

This incident does have to do with being judgmental, not only about the wedding (which is solely the decision & the personal business of the happy couple) but about the marriage as well.

In fact, many of the responses have assumed that this marriage is doomed.

doomed, I tell you, doomed!

& that any money, time, or attention spent on it is not only a waste but a much-resented imposition.

If you can't be happy & celebrate, stay home.

Have a headache, have bird flu, have a filling come out.

Stay home.

Read a book.

It isn't nice, & it isn't reasonable, to attend a celebration, knowing that you don't want to be there & resenting the hosts for having invited you.

Home is a good place to be.

Stay home.

An RSVP is requested for a reason. You obviously should have stayed home.

Where do I draw the line? Money. I'll support them verbally all day long. I'll even try to see the good in the situation for myself and for them. But spend hard earned bucks, not so much. Now, as for your trip, I'd have enjoyed it anyway, probably. I just would've thought of the wedding is a side trip. Maybe. I'd try to do that at any rate!

Guess it didn't completely hit me until we were AT the wedding.

*Nobody* other than casual or work acquaintances looked comfortable, and it wasn't only the resignation emanating from the FOB or the weak smiles of relatives. No member of the groom's family other than his DS attended. I don't think anyone has ever met anyone from his family -- including the bride. (He just has a lot of funny 'history', including lying about being divorced when he began seeing our relative.)

Aside from this particular situation, I'm a little surprised to read posts here dismissing vows. Are promises just words? Blah-blah-blah-you-may-kiss-the-bride? God-bless-this-food-let's-eat? Why *bother*?

I don't think it's about dismissing vows but rather realizing that sometimes people change for the worst. I think most people go into a wedding anticipating it will last but life happens. I will be taking vows but if my wonderful fiancé ever decided to hit me, cheat on me, or a number of other things I can't see happening (or I wouldn't be marrying him) but have certainly happened before in other marriages, then the vows would mean nothing to me. And while these are extreme examples, it's a slippery slope to start defining which circumstances are ok to abandon a marriage and which aren't.

That being said, I don't think people should take vows lightly, or to immediately divorce before trying to work things out as even good marriages can be hard work, but I also don't think you should have to suffer or have a bad marriage in fear of breaking a promise made earlier. Life is too short.

Do or don't bother as you please, but other people, *all* other people, are entitled to decide whether they should or shouldn't 'bother'.

Would you have approved if they'd decided to live together without marrying?

What could they have done to get your approval?
gone back to their unsatisfactory first partners?
No, you blasted her first husband, so we know you wouldn't approve of that, so...
they're going to be wrong no matter what they do?

Again, it sounds like you're resentful that you were invited to this celebration, in which case you shouldn't have gone to the ceremony & partaken of their hospitality, & your obligation to observe to be a good, well-behaved, sincere, & supportive guest is *not* relieved or diminished by the behavior of other guests.

If every other human being at that wedding acted like a jerk, it still is not acceptable to act like a jerk.

Decide for yourself whether or not to 'bother', & if vows are more important than the hope & joy of the people making those vows, then by all means, don't get a divorce no matter what happens.

Husband turns out to be a drug dealer/felon/pedophile/abuser?

Stay with him no matter what!

but don't lay that stuff on anybody else.

Between human beings & vows made in good faith, human beings are the more important.

Nobody in this day & age, thank goodness, has to sacrifice their physical or mental health or their enjoyment of life to those vows.

& you knew it wasn't a first marriage, you knew the whole story, before you went.

If you have such rigorous standards & you assume that other people are obligated to live up to those standards, & you know that the event celebrates a couple's *not* living up to those standards, stay home.

My brother has been married 3 times.

The first time, when he & his wife were very young, he just didn't know how to treat anyone well (we had a horrible family situation), & she left him.
Note that he didn't hit her or abuse her, he just took her for granted & paid absolutely no attention to her.

The second time, he married into a nutty family, & his wife's parents reeled her back into the family home, & they got a divorce.

The third time, he married a woman who'd been through what I understand to be he!!.

She'd grown up poor, her mother died young, she married a jerk who was mean to her, had a stepdaughter that she raised, had an older sister who was disabled & whom she helped & still does.

When she & my brother married, in our childhood church, our other brother & his wife attended, snickering.

This brother was to have filmed the wedding, but...
he 'forgot' to charge the battery.

It was that unimportant to him.

These two made fun of the couple, made fun of the wedding gown that the bride bought from a re-sale shop, made fun of the groom who choked up & came very very close to tears as he was reciting his vows.

They've been married nearly 20 years, & they're as close & as devoted as they were on that day.

They found in each other the strength & love, the loyalty & support, that neither one of them had ever had from their families.

My other brother & his wife are still married, too, & I think they're perfect for each other.

I think if I've learned any lesson in life it is to try to not to judge marriages--I'm really terrible at it. Those that I predicted would NOT work have worked; those where the couple seemed perfect for each other have proven disastrous.

The absolutely worst weddings I've been to are those where bride and groom are young enough that parents (who are paying) see the wedding as THEIR society occasion. The best weddings I've been to are small, intimate, and unpretentious--no "look at me!" but rather "come share our joy!"

I'm a religious person who takes marriage vows deeply seriously. If I thought a marriage was seriously flawed or "doomed" I would not go. But I would say a prayer for the couple because I have no idea whether it might work or not and truly wish the best for them.

Some seem to have missed that I attended with some misgivings, hoping for the best, but found myself in a farce. Nobody attending 'acted like a jerk', but many were as uncomfortable as I.

The bride's family are Polish-American. (Do I need to add "Catholic"?) They were surprised that the bride's first marriage lasted as long as it did, and they accepted the divorce. "She was young," was the rationale. They hoped the groom would 'grow up'.

They do not accept that their DD has chosen another glib drifter. They don't like him, and they are disappointed in her values.

The groom wasn't 'genuine' from the start. He had not even filed for divorce when he started 'sleeping over', in a home with a then-10 yo girl. FOB's subsequent investigation turned up an unsavory trail.

Perhaps I should add that the bride holds an advanced degree, has a lucrative career, and her family is well-to-do? And the groom...?

I am all for 'second chances'. I'm not saying people should endure terrible hardships in bad marriages. However, do you really think terrible hardships are involved when we have a 50% divorce rate? Might we be too tolerant of people showing no integrity about promises they've made?

I have *always* regretted "going along to get along". I hope I've learned a lesson about that.

Thanks for helping me sort my feelings.

"The bride's family are Polish-American. (Do I need to add "Catholic"?)"

No, actually you don't. It's a big disappointment anytime I hear someone say something like that, and I thought somehow you were a person of better judgement. Because whatever disparaging comment you wish to make about someone's beliefs or origin, something to the same effect could probably be said by someone else about you. Or about something about you. To what end? Who cares? Does it matter?

I think we all have some regrets...mine was not following dd1 and sil when they eloped (to Washington state) after his mother had a fit they wanted to have a fun wedding in vegas, which we all were going to attend... she snidely asked who got married in vegas but gamblers? sort of stopped her in her tracks when I said we did, lol..my parents LIVED there (and were neither gamblers, lol)...

chi83..love laguna beach..and hope you have a wonderful day...you're not caring what others do with their money, might be a bit caviler, and perhaps showing your a LOT younger than me at 68...

so the groom is a mooch,
the bride is an underachiever with terrible taste in men,
there are previous marriages of which you did/do not approve,
yet you do not approve of the fact that the happy couple escaped from those 'vows',
& to top it all off,
the bride is of Polish descent
& a Catholic!

so why *did* you go?
Why did you listen to their music & drink their wine?
It's not like this was a royal wedding & you're Queen Elizabeth & if you hadn't attended the tabloids would have gone into a feeding frenzy.

Had you stayed at home, chances are...
nobody would have thought a thing about it.

edited to add:

This really bothers me:

'I am all for 'second chances'. I'm not saying people should endure terrible hardships in bad marriages. However, do you really think terrible hardships are involved when we have a 50% divorce rate? Might we be too tolerant of people showing no integrity about promises they've made?'

There are only 2 people in a marriage, & every decision about that marriage, whether to remain in it or exit via divorce, is *their business*.

There's absolutely no foundation for the attitude that "we" are "too tolerant" of anything they decide about their marriage.

If you don't like divorce, don't get one.

but neither you nor I nor 'we' have any right to judge (there's that word again) how 'tolerant' we should be about someone else's marriage or divorce.

This post was edited by sylviatexas on Wed, Jul 30, 14 at 14:21

Susan, thank you for the well wishes. Don't get me wrong, I don't always agree with what people do with their money, but I just don't think it's my business. I am 31 for what it's worth!

And thanks Sheila as well, I remember you talking about your daughters wedding. We are getting married near there in Dana Point as well :)

Snidely -- I brought up the religion because of the part it plays here. I wasn't being witty. I don't know if every Polish-American is a strict Catholic, but these people ARE.

FOB is a former seminarian. The bad first marriage and divorce were accepted with sorrow. This 'repeat performance' is horrible. He stopped speaking to his DD for a year over this affair. The whole family has been hoping this would blow over. Not only did it not, it became this huge *performance*.

Sylvia -- Had I stayed home, it *would* have been noted! My DS and grandchildren were in the wedding. (Note that neither sister participated.)

It *does* matter what 'other people' think and do. It's called 'society', and the approval/disapproval *is* important to a society.

I did not know the bride before her first marriage; it's her whole family who identified that man as a problem before they wed, not me, but I saw the marriage unravel. I see this one failing for the same reasons.

I have only recounted this because I am examining myself and why I attended with such heavy misgivings. I have concluded that I can't 'bend' like this again because it feels wrong for ME.

"Might we be too tolerant of people showing no integrity about promises they've made?"

Who do you think you are to sit in such 'judgement of tolerance' with something as private as a couples marital vows? Whether they decide to practice "swinging", flat out infidelity or live blissfully ever after is really none if your business to "tolerate" or not!

Smh !

If vows are meaningless, why make them? Are we so jaded that we consider vows 'just words'?

Doesn't the witness in court swear to tell the truth? Doesn't the recruit swear to uphold his duty as a policeman? Doesn't the doctor swear to 'do no harm'? Do you expect your banker or broker to uphold his sworn fiduciary duty? Society falls apart if none of this is *real*.

If no one cares whether people honor their vows, how can a society depend on them? Why does a couple invite people to 'bear witness' if it's 'just between them'?

Know what - who really cares that they dishonoured their former marriage vows, it's none of your (or our) business. Life goes on, hopefully the couple will have a super marriage this time around, but iffin they don't, one more time == it's none of your (or our) business.

Well, after reading these comments I KNOW I'm an old lady with old-fashioned ideas and standards.

However they have served me and my family very well.

Senior gal, I don't think there's a thing wrong with having old-fashioned ideas and values - as long as they are YOUR standards to live by in your own life and not imposed on other people.

None of us "own" another person and certainly have no right to hoist ourselves into a position of superiority, attempting to dictate, judge or "tolerate" another persons commitment to marriage, or life, for that matter.

What is the intended result for "not tolerating" someone's personal choices?Are we to start weeding out everyone in our lives who we don't approve of in some form or another? On what level?

To believe that ANYONE is so perfect would be extremely haughty, arrogant and would lead to a very solitary existence.

Live and let live, people. Life is too short for such microscopic scrutiny!

Seniorgal has said this better than I. I'm talking about my personal ill-ease upon realizing I'd compromised my beliefs to social pressure. It's a wake-up call for ME.

Philly -- Aren't there standards you'd feel sorry to have compromised?

>>Seniorgal has said this better than I. I'm talking about my personal ill-ease upon realizing I'd compromised my beliefs to social pressure. It's a wake-up call for ME.>>

Chisue, I think you did the right thing by going. Whether the marriage succeeds or fails, it was a celebration - albeit reluctantly by some - and what you did was in support of the family as a whole.

I'm NOT close to most of my family by choice. We're even less close to my spouse's family, also by choice. I didn't particularly approve of my niece's and nephew's partner choices, and I approved even less of the stunningly expensive wedding nephew's fiancee wanted.

But...it was their choices to make. Each couple paid for their own wedding, and so we wished them well. And as it turned out, rather to many people's surprise, so far, so good.

Will it last? Who knows? My mother had five marriages! She felt 'incomplete' without the title of Wife. I've seen many friends get married for all kinds of reasons, some of which were in retrospect, wrong decisions.

We have a friend who is desperately trying to remain married. Despite being good friends with both husband and wife, we really do believe they would be better off separate at this point. They have grown so far apart I'm not sure they can be the person the other wants them to be.

Support the people you love, shrug when they make bad decisions. If I were in your situation and was asked to attend a third marriage, I'd combine it with a few extra days' vacation and consider the wedding one of those brief necessary evils needed to avoid unnecessary family tensions.

- from jkom51, who has been with her spouse 40 years, 33 of which have been spent married. With a mother who had five marriages, I wanted to be really, really sure I could live with someone(!).

A friend told me the story of when her sister got married years ago...first wedding in her 20's. The parents did not like the guy and felt the marriage was doomed before it even started. They kept it to themselves, went through with the beautiful wedding their daughter wanted. The father was in tears the entire day...everyone thought he was overcome with tears of joy when it was just the opposite. Sure enough, they had a baby a year or two later and then the marriage collapsed and he was a deadbeat dad. She had to move back in with mom and dad who helped with the baby yadda yadda.

Not saying this will happen here, but I think this is how Chisue was feeling......like she was supporting a train wreck.

Heck, my DS was engaged to a woman who was nice but I didn't think they were a good fit. Of course I would have supported him and attended the wedding, but my whole heart would not have been in it as a joyous occasion. (He realized it wasnt a good match and broke the engagement...we were not involved in his decision at all).

I think my other DS did marry a good fit for the most part, even then there was a part of me that was also not wholeheartedly thrilled at the wedding because of some of her behaviors during the wedding planning. I hope their marriage lasts and they are happy, but there is a small part of me that feels that maybe it won't.

So I get how Chisue was feeling.

Sometimes I say "Live and let live", but then other times I think we do everyone a disfavor when we take that attitude. When you ignore bad behavior, it becomes an assumed acceptance. You end up tolerating problems that shouldn't exist in the first place.

but this isn't 'bad behavior';
it isn't stealing or swearing at old ladies who cross the street too slowly or taking OP's car without permission or smoking in the house.

It's *their own wedding*, their marriage, their decisions, their party, & we don't get to decide whether or not to 'tolerate' what people do in their personal lives.

By the same token, they don't get to decide if they 'approve' of your personal lives.

What Sylvia just said!

AMEN!

Maybe I should have used "poor choices" instead of "bad behavior".

Everyone is so afraid of offending someone else that it seems like the things that need to be said never get said anymore. IMO, a close family member could have quietly taken the bride aside and had a talk with her before the wedding. If I didn't agree with the wedding, I would not have participated.

Other peoples bad choices do affect us. People are quick to claim "being negative' or judging" when something says something they don't want to hear. If more people spoke up when something bothered them or they saw something wrong, then maybe we wouldn't see so many human train wrecks.

Some of the 'bad choices' people make may affect us, but marriage is a personal contract between two people.

betcha a dollar if they hadn't married, the same people who're blasting them for marrying would be blasting them for not marrying.

Bet the newly-wed couple would have been much happier with a simple "No Thanks" RSVP. Does the OP not realize that probably everyone in attendance knew how resentful she felt. Unless, of course, she's a very good actress...or maybe she just wanted to make a statement! lol

I don't think you are hearing me. Nobody got hurt here except me. I thought I could do the socially desired thing and not care.

There were so many people attending 'with reservations' that I'm sure mine went unnoticed. No one from the groom's family attended. The bride's parents and sisters were subdued. I was only one of many 'going through the motions'.

I will think more carefully the next time I'm asked to 'go along' with something I can't fully accept.

'I will think more carefully the next time I'm asked to 'go along' with something I can't fully accept.'

good idea.

When I was young, our neighbour's son became engaged and when I told Dad that I'd heard it, his response was rather subdued.

When I asked why he wasn't elated, enthused, etc., farmer Dad said that he felt that the young man was "driving his pigs to a poor market".

I think that he attended, if he were invited, and offered good wishes for their marriage, but his opinion, call it "judgement", if you will, was that the marriage was very likely not a good fit and would be somewhat less than ideal, if it lasted.

The couple stayed together for many years, don't know about children ... but I think that there were different ideas as to lifestyle, and that his choice resulted in something of a drag on him.

I heard Chisue expressing regret that she felt that the people's choices were not a good fit, and there would likely be more heartache ahead ... and that most of us would not choose heartache for our friends, especially relatives ... but the choice is made by others, not by us: they hadn't asked our opinion (and if they had, it seems to me that it would behoove us to offer, along with our good wishes, some gently expressed reservations about the possible success of the enterprise).

She had gone with some anticipation, with some reservations, but realized while there and after that her support of the situation was less in the event than she'd anticipated.

I agree with the folks who were saying that they feel that in our society there's been an erosion in our levels of integrity and of commitment and working hard to follow through on our commitments in recent years.

Get married ... and if it doesn't work ... leave and try again with someone else.

"Serial polygamy," I've heard that called, on a bit of a lighter note.

ole joyful.