New construction plans-- any advise before final?
How much are you willing/can you change?
I'll give my 2 cents worth.Totally get rid of the desk area. We've had one in our last kitchen (I have to admit I even purposely put one in) and inherited one with our current kitchen. I can't stress how the area was only a dumping ground for papers. Read up on desks in the kitchen on GW and you will get an ear full.
I'd move the DW to the end on the right and move the current end cabinet on the island to the other side. That way you'd have a nice prep area to the left of the sink.
Buehl, I'm hoping you critique this plan, since it looks a lot like the one we've decided upon with the exception of windows instead of uppers along the range wall and our wall oven would be next to the frig. You always give such great advice.
Desks aren't always bad. My Mom had one in her kitchen for 35 years, and she used it as a desk almost daily. She is also pretty anal about minimizing clutter and keeping things organized, so it wasn't piled with stuff. I think effective use of desk space in a kitchen is much more about personality than the desk itself.
I had a desk in my kitchen, and it DID get piled with stuff. In my remodel, I eliminated the seating area, and built in desk functions into a wall of cabinets, complete with file drawers, pen and pencil drawers, and a charging station. I needed to get my desk clutter behind closed doors - but my Mom is proof that not everyone needs to hide it.
Any way to slide the laundry/powder room down a bit and get some windows/light into the kitchen? No view from your work area...just out through other spaces.
Without any feedback from the OP, I'm thinking this thread may be lost in the shuffle.
I've found it! I'm new so I'm trying to get with the program-my apologies.
We are in the final phase trying to get permits submitted before EOY.
We are right handed, won't it be awkward w/ DW on the left?
Lavender-Because of our lot we are trying no to push back any further due to the cost of gravel. We have an insane amount of $ in gravel expense.
I'm not necessarily concerned w/ natural light in the kitchen. The model is similar & its very bright + we added a window on each side of breakfast nook. We will do quite a bit of tv watching in the great room so too much light is a small fear.
This post was edited by RhettDrive on Tue, Dec 10, 13 at 0:43
Because of our lot we are trying no to push back any further due to the cost of gravel. We have an insane amount of $ in gravel expense.
I'm but necessarily concerned w/ natural light in the kitchen. The model is similar & its very bright + we added a window on each side of breakfast nook.
I'm right handed and always have the dw on the left. It makes sense to me.
On the other hand, I'm right-handed and our DW is on the right - it works fine.
In reality, it doesn't matter what side the DW is on based on "handedness". It makes more sense to put it where it functionally works best in the layout of the kitchen.
I've had a DW on both the left and the right and there were no issues on either side based on being right-handed.
However, what I think Aloha2009 is suggesting is moving the DW to the end of the island ("up") so there is more prep space on the other side of the sink and there is less conflict with the Prep/Cooking Zones and the Cleanup Zone - which I second!
Thanks for the input!
I'm not seeing that moving the DW alone would provide more prep (unless I'm missing something) so...would I need move the sink up as well?
Am I completely crazy for wanting 2 dishwashers 1 for CLEAN & 1 for DIRTY? Think of the cabinet space it would save.
I think I almost prefer hand-washing rather than the chore of emptying the dishwasher!
I don't have the fancy software that others have for altering layouts but I'll try to describe what I think would be a more useful island.
Left to right
Approx 60" of cabinet drawers (my best estimate from your diagram)
A 36" sink base
24" DW (next to dinette)
Not that it makes any difference IMO but your DW would be to the right of the sink.
My island will be the mirror of what I'm proposing to you.
Re: "prefer handwashing to the chore of emptying the dishwasher"...I replaced a 30y old unit a few yrs ago. I can almost understand your statement because the old unit didn't hold as much as should because of old-style configuration,so had to run more often... as well, many dishes had to be washed after the load due to its inadequate cleaning... Rest assured, with a [better to best ]newer unit it will load and unload efficiently, hold more than a much older unit and clean better so you will notice a difference from your laborious day to day dealings with any older unit you currently own. I think, of the very good, efficient machines, one will suffice. Sounds strange but I like loading and unloading the newer machine...esp when I know the eco cycle saved me water and time, and the dishes are all clean and sanitary.
"I almost prefer hand-washing rather than the chore of emptying the dishwasher!"
I think that is due to your current (assuming not that functional) layout and where things like dishes are stored.
The island is across from my dw. I unload one rack at a time to the island. Stacking bowls, dishes, etc. I then open the drawers in my island and just place everything in. For some items such and cups/glasses and some other items, I just have to spin and place in the cabinets which are close by. For most items I can put them away without even taking one step. Other items require one or two steps at the most. In my old kitchen putting away dishes was much more of a chore.
OK -here are a couple of ideas. Personally, I like Layout #1 best.
The cabinets on the "bottom" wall are 3" deeper than normal, giving you a countertop that is 3" deeper as well. Those 3" can mean a lot - including giving you more more room behind the faucet! You have plenty of room, so there's no reason not to!
If you cannot get/afford the deeper base cabinets, then pull them 3" out from the wall.
For the uppers, I strongly recommend the 15" deep cabinets to
Bring the contents closer to you
Give you more depth for storage (those 3" add a surprising amount of storage)
Provide better storage in the Dish Hutch.
The dishes are stored in a 36" Dish Hutch that is next to the Dining area. In Layout #1, the Dish Hutch is very close to the DW, making it easy to unload the DW and put the dishes away.
In Layout #2, b/c the sink is in the island, it's not as easy. That's one of the drawbacks of having your Cleanup Zone in the island. Another drawback is that your dirty dishes are all "front and center" - on display to everyone in the Great Room as well as the Dining area as well as in the faces of those sitting at the island.
The refrigerator is a standard-depth refrigerator and has been recessed into the wall behind it a few inches. It has been moved so the island is no longer a barrier b/w the Prep and Cooking Zones and the Refrigerator.
The island has seating on two sides. Two-sided seating is much "friendlier" and allows for easy conversation. When there is seating on only one side and there are more than one or two seats, people sit "like ducks in a row".
Instead of a desk, there's a Message Center on the side wall. This location is in the direct path b/w the Garage entrance and the rest of the living area of the house. This is a much better location as you can drop off your keys and mail on the way in, charge your phone, have a centrally-located calendar and/or message board, hold the landline answering machine (if you have one), and pick up your keys & phone on the way out the door!
There is also a Tea/Coffee Center near the Dining area and easily accessed from the Great Room. It's near a water source so there is easy access to water for filling a coffeemaker, etc.
Since this is your retirement & "forever" home, the aisles are wider to accommodate aging in place. They're wide enough for a wheelchair for both forward/backward motion and for turning around. Let's hope you never need one, but planning ahead.... You could probably reduce them by 3"or so and still be wide enough, if you prefer. But, I'd only reduce the aisle if you go with something similar to Layout #1. In Layout #2, you want plenty of space b/w an open DW door and someone working at the counter across the aisle w/o conflict (or backing into an open DW door!)
[Click/Select a picture to see a bigger version]
[Edited to add Message Center, Tea/Coffee Center, and aisle information.]
This post was edited by buehl on Tue, Dec 10, 13 at 15:34
WOW! I am going to need a minute to chew this up & digest all of the options you have so generously given me. This is AWESOME stuff. Be back soon : )
debrak2008-- I think your point is rather valid. As I emptied the DW tonight I thought about your comment & it was dead-on!
What am I missing about which side the DW is on depending on? I just don't see what difference it would make.
Here is a link that might be useful: Dishwasher on left hand side?
DW's are part of the cleanup zone. You do not want them in the middle of the prep zone. It limits the ability to have an extra worker load the dirty dishes while you are creating them. Kitchens are multi person occupied these days, not a single person in a 7x9 space working alone. Design has to evolve to accommodate multiple people and multiple functions simultaneously rather than a single person serialy.
GreenDesign that makes sense.
The way I understood RhettDrives comment, it seemed more about ergonomics then kitchen functioning. Perhaps though, I didn't understand the OP's reasoning.
The comments have been extremely helpful.
GreenDesigns- points out that functionality should trump ergonomics to accommodate the way kitchens are used today, makes sense.
We have become accustom to adapting to our current layouts & it is difficult when customizing to remember this!
alooha9- thanks for the link!
Don't give up on me- the Bath forum has me CONSUMED w/ a total redesign and I'm getting butterflies as it is almost ready for final submit.
Just a few ideas.
Since you plan this as your forever home, I think I'd try to fit everything on the 23' wall, so in old age it would be easier to attend to something in the oven/mw while you cook something else on the range. I'd also plan the island a bit smaller. It may become a chore as years go by to wipe a big island. Also, if I'm not mistaken, this is 3 BR house, and you don't have a separate DR.. So, if you decide to sell the house one day a small family would be interested in buying the house. Therefore, I think an island with 4 seats would be a good size, and if any future owners wish to have a bigger dining table they'd be able to do so.
Also, I'd strongly recommend a raised DW.
Buehl, question for you (well , everyone for that matter...)
My proposed kitchen setup is much the same as this ... Except the doorway is at the edge of the room, meaning my "L" is connected without the break. In that case, where would you stick the refrigerator ???
RhettDrive, how is the project going?
JSpann - I'm reviewing your "help w/island size" and "Beginning Kitchen Layout... lost!" threads...I will respond on one (or both) of them sometime tonight or tomorrow.
Oh, Thank you!! I look forward to hearing any advice /input you may offer.
We had some harsh weather the day after we broke ground- below zero temps for weeks + snow every day. Go figure, so everything came to a screeching halt. Finally the weather has broke & we have the footers poured. Picking out brick, roof & windows. What a task!
Here is a link that might be useful: Pics of progress