Final Layout SIgn off

MontclairNJDecember 30, 2013

So this is our final layout for our kitchen - posting below shows kitchen relative to rest of house.

The big question is the little breakfast nook - the best perch to look out to backyard - not sure best set up for two little kids - round table or rectangle. This is the first floor but your backyard slopes down so there is a walk-out basement below - the back porch door right next to nook takes steps down to a patio overlooking backyard and grill area.

Have tried to work in the best of ideas from THS - including prep zones and traffic patterns and big appliances, sinks and storage. Thanks in advance for all the help!

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Attached is the kitchen within the rest of the house - thanks again

    Bookmark   December 30, 2013 at 4:08PM
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I like round tables. To me, they are more friendly, seem to encourage conversation and its easier to squish in one more person. There are also wine tables - they are a little more oval in shape.

=== these are just comments on the design, not fatal errors

You might want to know the effective size of the aisle between the island and the south wall (as drawn) containing your pantry cabinets. It's lookin' kinda 36" when the counter is included.

This aisle will be a very active hallway in your kitchen - people will go in and out of the pantry cabinets. People also to/fro the refrigerator from the table seating and the stools. It's a short distance but could gum up the works in another way. Because the cabinet/ref arrangement can congest that corner (imagine the pantry open, the ref open and someone comes through the side entrance on their way to the stools), there is a pretty decent chance that the aisle in front of the range will become a hallway also. This chance is increased because dish storage in on the other side of the room - not bad in and of itself, but kids swinging through to microwave something may need to go back and forth to the dishes/water. It's hard to tell because I can't see where the microwave is located.

Remedies are as simple as exchanging a cabinet in the island for one with 3-6" less width. Another would be to push back the mudroom wall 3-6".

Will you have cleaning stuff in the mudroom? Do you need a mop sink there?

Depending on your climate, consider cutting down the pass through to the butler's pantry in exchange for a hanging rail with hooks for outdoor wear.

I'd also suggest looking yet again at the dining room/old butlers/new butlers/new exterior entries bunch of stuff.

Lots of little spaces there with lotta doors and unusable space. Could it be made simpler with less doors/hall way and space devoted to transitions? The answer may be no, but that's where I'd push the designer of the entire project to reconsider.

The link is to some interesting kitchens from a spanish design team called Deulonder. They pack an amazing amount of practical stuff tucked into "small" spaces. It's not so you would re-evaluate your entire project but you might see something that appeals to you for how to treat that area. The photographs are so clear that I think being able to read Spanish is optional.

Here is a link that might be useful: Deulonder

    Bookmark   December 30, 2013 at 6:55PM
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Panic: Thanks much on all the advice. I do feel the round is much friendlier and warmer...and will probably go that way - my only concern was feeding lots of little ones at one time and having them along a rectangular table.

Totally agree on the width on south side of island - definitely needs to be wider - probably the most active side of the kitchen so more like 48...the island is 108" which is plenty wide - so will probably lose a few inches there and skinny down the distance between sink by 2 inches.

Didn't think about mop sink in mud room - we were thinking more walk in storage and lockers - less cleaning. But that's a good point. Might just keep in basement for cleaning.

Thanks for the link to Deulonder - hadn't heard of and looks like amazing stuff. As for all the little space along that hallway connecting kitchen to front hall, I don't disagree...but not sure without spending a bunch more money and impacting rest of house what the solution is. It's an old house with interesting bones...interesting being a bit of a euphemism for little nooks and crannies which we want to make lovable....if possible

thanks for suggestions

    Bookmark   December 30, 2013 at 7:01PM
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I personally wouldn't want a banquette if you need to be able to help feeding the kids. Not so easy to get around. I would prefer a round table with chairs that you could easily put booster seats on.

I do like a round table with a banquette, but realize you end up with less table access and there will really only be two spots on each side of the benches where there is close access to the table for the kids if you go round.

This post was edited by lyfia on Tue, Dec 31, 13 at 11:13

    Bookmark   December 31, 2013 at 11:11AM
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How much space is between the clean-up sink and the island? (Does that say 44"? I can't tell.) When the dishwasher door is open, are you able to walk around it or not?

I like how everything is laid out. My only concern would be the walkways, as someone else mentioned.

The other thing to think about is that trash location. Our kitchen is laid out similarly with trash in the same location, but our walkways are bigger. Also, we made access to the trash from both sides (the sink side and the oven side.) Depending upon what is happening in the kitchen, we use a different side. I am assuming your trash is a pull out (ours is not...) If it is and it is open, does that bump into the person cooking at the cooktop? That wouldn't be ideal, of course. If yours is a pull-out, can you create a door that opens on the sink side? That would help to keep ppl throwing away trash out of the cooking zone. Also, someone doing cleanup has slightly easier access to toss things.

We like our trash location, but found we need another can in the pantry/fridge area. Just keep in mind that any packaging trash from the pantry will require a trip around the island to that trash. That might not be an issue for you, though.

    Bookmark   December 31, 2013 at 1:04PM
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I've always felt that there's something special about round 42-48" tables. Wish I had a place for one.

    Bookmark   December 31, 2013 at 2:34PM
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I'll let the pros answer, but I have a similar L shaped plan with an island and corner banquette, so I can give some tips from experience.

I have a rectangular table. I also like the feel of a round one. The open end of the banquette actually aligns in my case with the edge of the table. (The other end has a space to allow passage, as it abuts to a cabinet as well) This maximizes seating but it can be challenging to scoot in and out down a long bench.

I think the trash you will find is a problem. Since you have so much space elsewhere to store stuff, I would consider adding a trash pullout by the main sink and a smaller one by the prep sink (down at the end by the prep sink). The cleanup trash could be to the left of the DW. This would make it more accessible to people looking to dispose of something (like a bottle or can) without getting in the main work triangle.

Where do you plan on putting dishes and cutlery? To the left of the DW? You could put cutlery and everyday dishes on the 24" end of the island facing the sink. This would make unloading from either side easier. When the doors to the DW are down, you will have enough room to scoot by, based on my floorplan and your 44" aisle.

I would not steal more than four inches from the island to make the aisleway down by the mudroom larger. Remember, you lose about 4" from each side from the island legs. I would rather push back the mudroom wall a couple of inches until you get 42" of aisle. (Four from one side, two from the other). I have a 41x104" island and fit three larger stools with plenty of room to get in and out without moving the chairs back too much (I have a tighter plan in back, so this was required).

Just a few other comments. Do you have any large sheet pan storage? Above the pantries? The microwave is pretty far from the action, as well. Did you consider putting it to the left of the fridge?

    Bookmark   December 31, 2013 at 4:23PM
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Just a few ideas...hope this helps! :)

From [Kitchen plans](
    Bookmark   December 31, 2013 at 9:37PM
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Thanks everyone for the comments. There is 44" between cleanup sink and island - is that not enough? My KD says that should provide access even with dishwasher open.

Good points about the trash - esp. during prep times don't really want people to have to go behind island for trash. Probably need to put something to left of clean up sink ... We rented a summer house with two trash locations and I remember always having smelly trash around and different recycling in each was a bit of a pain. But maybe just trash by cleanup.

We are adding a full height hutch at end of counter next to banquette seating. That's where all daily dishes and cutler will go.

As for banquette versus round, I think we might experiment first with just a table and 4-6 chairs knowing we can add banquette in future. I like the look of freestanding table surrounded by windows better but think that the banquette is more family friendly.

    Bookmark   January 2, 2014 at 1:11PM
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My layout at your sink/dw/island area is much like mine. I have 42" counter edge to edge and I just tried it. Yes you can walk around the open dw door. Not alot of room but doable. It has never been an issue for us.

Are our measurements edge to edge or cabinet to cabinet?

    Bookmark   January 2, 2014 at 1:16PM
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