Please help with layout - happy wife, happy life

twindaddDecember 5, 2012

About to start gut renovating and need some help with layouts. The kitchen will be down to the studs and all of the windows and slider can be moved. We cannot move the door to garage nor the opening at the top, but potentially can move the DR entry. Wife desperately wants island with 3 seats (no peninsula) but we are not sure how to configure because of the width limitations.

Appliances will likely wind up as 48" s/s counter depth fridge, 36" rangetop and double wall ovens.

Otherwise, it is effectively a blank canvas.

Thanks so much in advance!

This post was edited by twindadd on Wed, Dec 5, 12 at 15:46

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I am having some trouble seeing the kitchen's dimensions. Can you post a larger and/or blown-up version?

    Bookmark   December 5, 2012 at 5:23PM
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If the DR is informal and you're willing to remove the wall b/w kitchen and DR, it seems that you could have a 6' x 3' island between the 2 rooms with room for 3 seats (kind of tight) and 43" aisles on either side (with 1" counter overhangs.) The long wall would hold sink, cooktop, and ovens, with perhaps room for a corner pantry or at least tall pantry cabinets. Ref would be on short wall b/w DR and garage with room for a broom closet cabinet on one side.

This is a very rough mockup from a non-pro and needs to be drawn to scale and vetted by the layout gurus (who I'm hoping will chime in with a few layouts.) I just wanted to provide an idea of where an island might be able to go.

If you like the look of a fancy hood, you could swap the cooktop and sink in this layout and see the hood from the DR.

If that wall is a support wall you could consider a header with support columns, a bit like the second picture.

    Bookmark   December 5, 2012 at 6:12PM
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Where does the opening at the top go? The slider- does that indicate there needs to be an opening from the kitchen to the backyard? If so, is that a high traffic door? Do you need any mud room type function near the garage? Do you want a pretty focal point hood?

    Bookmark   December 5, 2012 at 6:29PM
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where IS the slider?

as it is I'd go starting w/bottom wall (garage door opens against it) fridge on that wall, corner cab, up the right wall with the sink, counter space, cook top, counter space, wall ovens, then a not too wide cab (2 section upper and lower or even 3 sections depending on what you have to store there) for vertical storage - 9x13 cake pans, cookie sheets, muffing pans, cutting boards, - upper could be for extra oven racks, broiler pan, platters. One section could be a pull out peg board or slots for skillets or lids or both. That cab gives you some space to stand in front of the ovens without being squished against the end wall.

Open up the DR doorway to an arch maybe and have the island between it and kit counter space. Should be enough room to have an overhang and stools on the DR side.

Do it up on graph paper to check spacing.

the left wall by garage door could be coat, jacket hooks over a bench with storage for shoes under it. OR a pantry about 15 or so inches deep. You could also build in mw space there (it's close to the fridge). I use my mw a LOT so I'd put it over between the sink and fridge or between ovens and cook top. My pantry shelves are 15" deep and that's plenty deep.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 12:56AM
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Thanks all. The windows/slider facing the backyard have yet to be determined so we could basically put them anywhere we want. Yes, we would love to have some sort of mudroom/organization space at the garage entry since that will likely get the most use.

Angie - I've tried to blow up the dimensions

Chicagoans- We'd like to keep the formal DR as we feel like there is plenty of space in the kitchen for an informal eating area in addition to seating at the island.

Williamsem - I've adjusted the floorplan to show what's above the entry. Basically, it is a center hall colonial and the hallway down the middle of the house is above the powder room, with the opposite of the hallway having the family room and living room. As much as I would like to try and close that up or move the entrance its probably not a good move. As for the hood, I would say yes. My wife loves all things fancy!

Desertsteph - I had thought about arranging it that way, but do you think it is awkward to enter the kitchen from the center hall into an eating area? The front door will mostly be used by guests, but it seems a bit of a strange flow.

Thanks agin all!!

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 11:37AM
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A couple of questions:

Does the placement of the slider affect the look of house house from the exterior? Where would a slider look best from the outside? How often would this door be used?

How formal is your dining room? Do you want to keep a small door for a more formal feeling, or do you want to open that space up?

Is your house old? If it is, I would lean toward a regular small door to the dining, or french doors that you could close if you needed to. If you kept the small door, would it be a swinging door (so cool!) or a regular one?

What is your wife's style? I know this is a hard question for husbands. My husband would say, "my wife's style". Does she like casual living or more formal? Does she like people in the kitchen with her for entertaining? Does she entertain much? What kind of cooking does she do?

How much storage does she want? Some people sacrifice storage for aesthetics, and others want to maximize every inch.

Does your family want to do most of it's every day meals in the kitchen (if so, on the island or a table), or in the dining room?

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 12:14PM
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All good questions - happy to answer!

The slider woud likely be in the narrower part of the kitchen somewhere opposite the garage entry. It won't affect the outside much so we're open to ideas. I would imagine that this would be a well used door during the warmer months (we are in NY) but would serve more as a big window for the rest of the year. Also, our two sons will likely use this as their main backyard exit and entrance.

I think we're open to ideas on the formality of the DR, but will not make the entry too big. Mostly because when you enter the front door of the house, the DR is immediately on the right and opening the kitchen/dr entryway, in my opinion, makes the kitchen too visible from the front foyer.

House was built in 1958. I think our preference is for no door with a roughly 3ft opening.

I'd call her style frech provincial, but comfortable. Think fancy hotel lobby, but with a comfortable, warm feeling. We would like very much for the kitchen to be the "center of our home". Entertaining casually, and on holidays. She not a gourmet but will try her hand every so often.

Storage is important, but layout and aesthetics are more so. We don't want cabinets everywhere, but we don't want to have to put kitchen items in closets elsewhere.

I would say that most meals are in the kitchen. DR will probably be reserved for special occasions like holidays and infrequent dinner parties.


    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 12:28PM
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I wish I was more computer savvy and could do what chicagoans did. I'll just have to describe it in words.

I would leave the dining room door where it is and keep it that size.

I would put the slider opposite the garage door, but centered on the 11'1" part of the wall.

I would put a whole wall of shallow pantry cupboards on the wall perpendicular to the garage door wall.

On the wall space to the left of the garage door I would have hooks for hanging up coats and things.

I would place the stove on the 5'8" wall to the right of the doorway (if you are facing it) that goes to the powder room.

I would place the sink on the long wall between the sliders and the corner, and I would install a window over the sink so your wife can watch the kids outside while she does dishes.

I would have the island opposite the sink, with seating on the back and the lower side (toward the garage).

I would have nothing on the dining room wall, to give plenty of room to walk around the island seating.

I think this plan would work because it keeps the traffic flow out of the work zone. The stove would be kind of in the corner, but what will your wife be doing more: washing sippy cups (the never-ending sippy cups!!) or cooking a gourmet meal? Probably at the sink.

One last detail: in front of the sliders, I would put a small, charming round table, kind of like a bistro table, with a few chairs so your wife could sit there and sip coffee and read magazines with the doors open while she keeps an eye on the kids outside.

Wow, my kitchen sounds fabulous...wait, uh, I mean YOUR kitchen sounds fabulous. Yeah, your kitchen....

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 1:06PM
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Thanks rosylady. A lot of people have been saying to keep the DR wall empty. Doesn't that seem unbalanced? Also, do you think a 36" rangetop fits on the 5'8" wall? I feel like that might be too snug.

Is it possible to angle the rangetop, or does it not save all that much space?

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 1:13PM
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Yeah, you're right, it doesn't fit. I get carried away with the picture in my mind and don't think too much about pesky little details like measurements. Aren't I helpful?

Ok, so the range and the sink on the same wall. Fridge to the left of the powder room hall door. I didn't realize it was a range TOP.

Ok, how about ovens at the end of the stove, sink wall, next to the slider? So, if you are looking at the long wall it would go:

Counter, rangetop, counter, sink, counter, ovens, wall, slider, wall.

I think you could fit all this on that wall and have enough space. Would most of the prep be happening on the island?

You are trying to fit a lot into this space. It's hard to have a narrow room with lots of openings...

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 1:42PM
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"do you think it is awkward to enter the kitchen from the center hall into an eating area?"

no, I think many open onto the eating area. hopefully it'd work out that the view from the hall would be the island. What's across that hallway from the kitchen - the FR?

how old are your boys?

please do the LO up on graph paper to scale and post here. draw in lines to show cabs/counter along the PR wall and down the right wall. About 3' out from the cab fronts (aisle area - tho it might be better to go 40" or so for the real aisle - this will give us something to work with) draw a rectangle 3' wide and allowing about 3.5' to the top and bottom of it (to represent the island). Then mark the measurement from the left side of the 'island' to the DR wall. then we can see if there's enough room for the overhang and seating, walk around space and what amt of space would work for the length of the island.

also mark the measurement on it from the cab front on the lower front of the cabs to the garage door/wall. If you want the slider on the lwr right then stop the cabinets where it will allow for the width of the slider you want to put in.

from this we can better see where the fridge, sink, cook top etc will fit in for best function and use of your space.

It helps to include with the LO the width of the fridge and cook top (or any appliances you want in the room). This will save people from searching your previous posts to find them. Did you want wall ovens or would a range work for your family? what about a mw?

Also, you said your wife wanted seating at the island for 3. you, the wife and 2 boys = 4. Who doesn't get to sit down to eat? or do you also want an 'in kitchen' table?

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 9:06PM
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I think there is only room for a seating island with no storage or a storage island with no seating if you want cabinets on the dining room wall. Very shallow pantry cabinets might get you seating with 12 in storage cabinets in the island, but if I remember recommended clearances right that's it.

Why no peninsula? That would work great to get the seating plus the ovens, fridge, and a small pantry on the DR wall.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 9:47PM
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I have a completely different idea. Before I spend any time on it, I'd like to know if you are open to it.

I am assuming, as per desertstephs comment, that you want a kitchen table in addition to a 3-seat island. Is that correct?

If so, I am thinking about putting the kitchen proper in the narrow part of the room. I would try to make a sort of galley-type kitchen along the two walls. Then, I would put an island with seating just beyond where the room becomes a bit wider. The slider and table would go in the wide part of the room.

Are you interested in that, and open to consider it?

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 12:15AM
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desertsteph - i will work on those drawings. I'm not exactly an expert draftsman in case you couldn't already tell!

Boys will be 7 when this is all done and, yes, accross the hall from kit/pr is the family room.

williamsem - that seems to be the prevailing theory. As for the peninsula, I think we might be open to it as a last resort, but my wife isn't terribly fond of the look.

Angie - your assumption is correct. We would like to have a table plus the seating at the island. I really like the idea and think from a space planning perspective it makes a lot of sense. My only concern, which was also addressed by desertsteph, is the potential flow issue between center hall through eating area to working kitchen. Also, might be weird to have a dining room directly share the wall with the eating area but that's why I came to gw boards! All opinions are certainly welcome and I would really appreciate any of your ideas.


    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 9:56AM
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Okay, good to know. I may get some time to try to work on it.

I had not correctly parsed desertsteph's post to see that she had suggested using the narrow part as the kitchen.

I think that if you are concerned about the flow, and you want our input, you are going to have to provide a (rough) layout of the entire first floor. I have no idea where your front door is.

There is a good description of the information that would be useful in the thread that I link below.

Here is a link that might be useful: New to Kitchens? Scroll down for directions for layout advice

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 11:19AM
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"I'm not exactly an expert draftsman"

you don't need to be an expert(I know that because I can draw one!) - have you looked at some of the layouts given on other threads here? just a basic rectangle using graph paper and maybe 1 sq per foot of space. mark doorways, windows etc and give measurements for all of them. just 'line' drawings for the cab area and the island leaving space for the aisle between them. It is a big help to identify what / where other rooms are too. Be sure the lines and writings on it are large enough and dark enough to show up clearly here. That should be enough to get us started. Doesn't mean we won't ask for it to be updated - lol! You can google for graph paper and print it out from there - that's what I do. I have a pk of it somewhere - packed in a box that I WILL find - one day!

angie - I'd say the entry door is to the far left - at the end of the hallway that runs along the top side of the PR and stairway - going L to R.
That should place the LR across the hall from the DR ('above' it).

I didn't 'place' the main part of the kitchen in the lower section in my post. Tho, some cabs and food storage would probably be there. I think if a table is also wanted that it would be best placed in the lower area between the garage door and the slider they want. Good place to sit and look out back and/or watch the boys.

Unless they decide to put the slider up higher on the R wall.

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 12:09PM
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I think putting the working part of the kitchen in the smaller area would be difficult if the garage door is heavily used. How would people going back and forth be routed out of the cooking/prep area?

Does your family use the garage door to go in and out of the house, or the front door?

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 3:09PM
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Well, I gave it a try, and I don't think my idea will work. In the picture below, I started filling up the kitchen from the bottom up. I ran out of space in which to put a table.

I gave you a small prep sink near the range, and put the cleanup sink, DW, and trash pull-out in the island. I made the island big enough (48x78) to accommodate your seating comfortably; you could perhaps pare this down to 42x78.

The dashed circles represent 42" clearances for aisles. The dashed box represents the space that is recommended for clearance around a table (36" min.)

Perhaps all of this could be "compactified" a bit, but I don't think it look promising to fit all of the things on your wish list. Frankly, I doubt any arrangement will fit the things in your wish list, and you will have to give up some of your goodies, but perhaps I will be proven wrong.

The promising thing is that the table + clearance I am showing will fit within the small part of the kitchen space, where you were envisioning it all along. I just don't see a way, in that plan, to have an island with seating and to retain the DR wall in the larger part of the kitchen.

Edited to correct a mistake in island dimensions.

This post was edited by Angie_DIY on Fri, Dec 7, 12 at 16:32

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 4:03PM
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"if the garage door is heavily used. How would people going back and forth be routed out of the cooking/prep area? "

traffic would have to stick close to whatever is on the garage wall - and stay out of the area where the stove is. The fridge there would need to be CD.

I'd run the sink and dw on the R wall also - keep it off of the island. Make the island maybe 2.5' deep. that's shallow storage on the working side and maybe a small prep sink on top. I think they'd need to go with a range rather than cooktop and wall oven.

They'll need to prioritize their wants for it. And when the graph paper to scale LO is posted serious thought can be put to it.

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 8:22PM
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Well, I'm far from an expert. But I do have a new app to play with, so I took a stab at this. I could either get a table in or a peninsula. I always go with more ideas are better, so here goes!

The app is a little limited in some offerings. The table pictured would be a banquette to help keep the walkway free.

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 9:44PM
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"...Wife desperately wants island with 3 seats (no peninsula)..."

"...we feel like there is plenty of space in the kitchen for an informal eating area in addition to seating at the island..."

Everyone wants an island w/seating these days - it's the "in" thing right now. Unfortunately, that means we have people trying to shoehorn in an island even when the kitchen space cannot support it.

"...DR will probably be reserved for special occasions like holidays and infrequent dinner parties..."

In our case, we eliminated the kitchen table in our kitchen b/c it was too tight if we wanted adequate workspace + double ovens & cooktop (rather than range) + adequate aisles + peninsula w/seating. We then opened up our DR to the kitchen...and it was one of the best things we did! We now have a less-formal DR/more-formal kitchen table space for eating all our meals as a family (we use the peninsula if it's just one or two of us). In addition, we took a room that was rarely used and now use it everyday for meals. For us, having square footage that we were paying a mortgage on and not using seemed like such a waste!

So, correct me if I'm want the following in this space:

  • Kitchen

  • Table Space

  • Mudroom

  • Island that seats three

  • Over-sized appliances, especially the refrigerator (48")...and it's Counter-depth, not built-in (CD is approx 30" deep, built-ins are approx 25" deep)

  • 36" Range top + 30" Double Ovens rather than Range (Range takes up far less room & counterspace)


  • You're not willing to take down the DR wall

  • You now have three places to sit rather close together

  • You want a slider - and they're usually 6' wide (would you consider a 36" single door? You can get some really nice doors.)

  • You're not willing to consider a peninsula instead of an island...even though your kitchen is rather narrow, especially on the Garage end

Be aware that

  1. An island that seats 3 will need to be at least 41.5" deep (1.5" overhang + 24" deep cabinets + 1" decorative door on the back of the cabinets + 15" overhang)

  2. Each person needs at least 24" of linear space

OK...everyone's been dancing around without actually coming out and saying it in plain English: You don't have room for all of this with your constraints and space. Sorry to be blunt, but someone had to say it.

    Bookmark   December 8, 2012 at 6:50AM
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Here are a couple of possible layouts that have everything you want...however....

  1. Aisles are very narrow

  2. Your prep space overlaps the DW (have you ever prepped over a running DW? The noise, heat, and steam are not pleasant) [Note that prepping usually occurs b/w the sink and range/cooktop/rangetop b/c of the need for water in both prepping and cooking]

  3. As to that DW - if anyone is cleaning up or if someone tries to put something in the DW or take it out, you will have to move out of the way

  4. You have very little storage space, especially for food

  5. The MW is inaccessible w/o getting in the way of someone working at the sink in Layout #1 or the rangetop in Layout #2

  6. I suspect people will tend to go through your work zones b/c it looks less cluttered and appears to have more space (it doesn't, but w/the wall and refrigerator on the "top", the bottom will appear less cluttered)

Bottom line: If this were my kitchen, most of the above would be a reason to remodel, but we're all different. To me functionality is #1, aesthetics #2. You can make a functional kitchen look nice, but you can't make a nice looking but dysfunctional kitchen functional (w/o moving things around).

Note that I had to put in a 36" door rather than a slider b/c otherwise the sink + rangetop + DW would not fit on that counter run. 3' makes a big difference! cannot put the vast majority of non-built-in refrigerator against a wall b/c the door against the wall will not open fully. Therefore, you need at least a 9", preferably 12" space b/w the wall and the refrigerator. What this means is that the refrigerator will not fit on the right wall to the left of the doorway to the hall and PR.

(Note that you also need a bit of filler b/w the wall and cabinet to ensure the cabinet will open fully. Most walls are not straight - they have some "wave" - especially older homes, so you need to be sure you account for this.)

Edit: Corrected picture to show 1" decorative doors on back of peninsula.

Layout #1

Layout #2

This post was edited by buehl on Sat, Dec 8, 12 at 16:16

    Bookmark   December 8, 2012 at 8:11AM
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I agree with buehl, having three seating options so close together seems like overkill.

    Bookmark   December 8, 2012 at 1:03PM
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Start using your dining room and then do an eat at island OR a table. I would vote for an eat at island.

You will then end up with a great functioning layout.

    Bookmark   December 8, 2012 at 4:59PM
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things for thought. young boys grow into much larger young men. 36" aisles could be tight.

    Bookmark   December 8, 2012 at 10:55PM
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So I was thinking about your kitchen over the weekend, and if you're willing to make a few changes to your wants, here are a couple more layouts.

What's changed?

In both layouts: Better aisle widths overall Instead of an island that seats 3, it seats 1...or you could add another 18" cabinet to the island & eliminate the seat if you think only one would be a problem with the twins. However, they'll only be at the arguing stage for a few short years and then I think the seat will be nice to have. The DR doorway was moved to the left and enlarged to be 39". I like the arch idea someone else suggested - as long as it fits in with the architecture of the rest of the home.

In Layout #4, I changed the rangetop + double ovens to a 36" range. Notice how much more counterspace you gain, it's more open, and you have more "breathing room" b/w the cabs/counter and the doorway to the Hall & PR.

BTW...In both cases, I think you would really benefit from a built-in refrigerator rather than a counter-depth. Not only will it help with aisle access (you gain 4" to 5" or so), but I think it would be a better fit for your wife's tastes.

Other details:

  • The Cleanup Zone is separated from the Prep & Cooking Zones. This allows someone to be cleaning up while someone else is prepping and/or cooking without them getting in each others way.

There's a dish hutch next to the DW so it's easy to unload the DW & put dishes away. It also puts the dishes in a convenient location to the DR and Kitchen Table. Someone can set the table without getting in the way of those prepping and cooking and it's easy to clear the table from either location. The refrigerator is moved to the "bottom" wall so it's near the Prep & Cooking Zones. Note that it's on the periphery so very accessible to both those prepping & cooking as well as those just looking for a snack without the snackers getting in the way of those working. It's also close to the Kitchen Table for those things you forgot to get out before sitting down to eat! There's still an island, but just one seat. There's now room for a prep sink on the island so you can prep on the island as well as have easy access to water and the sink from the range/rangetop (for filling & emptying pots). MW...OK, I admit it, I'm a big fan of MW drawers! I have one and I love it! I put one in these layouts. Why do I like them?

  • They eliminate a countertop MW

  • They put the MW where it's not obvious what it is (like when it's mounted under an upper cabinet...which also means no loss of countertop access under the MW)

  • They put the MW at a height that's easy to use for both tall and short people

  • It's in the top drawer location in a base cabinet with room for a deep drawer underneath it

  • The controls are angled up so no bending over to read/use them. They also have child lock-out, if it's needed.

  • It opens with a gentle tug and closes (softly) with a gentle nudge of your hip...

    Bookmark   December 9, 2012 at 10:59PM
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All, this is amazing feedback - thank you so much!!

Buehl - I really like layout #3 and we could certainly do a built in fridge. What would you think about switching it to the DR wall with the sink/dw and then eliminating the island sink. Maybe then the island could shrink to a 24" cabinet and we could get at least 2 seats at the island? Maybe even put DW in island and move rangetop to end and sink where rangetop is now? Im likely missing a number of key principles here, but wanted to at least ask the experts!!

Also, I totally hear you on the "asking for everything" comments. If we were willing to trade the island for a peninsula, do you think that would make big difference? I don't think we would eliminate the eating area from the kitchen, or knock down the DR wall though. What if we could cheat a few feet into the DR? Maybe move the wall 2 feet? or expand the kitchen out 2 feet (obviously and expensive proposition)?

I can't thank you enough for this.

    Bookmark   December 10, 2012 at 10:26AM
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Do you mean moving the refrigerator and keeping the DW & Sink on the DR wall? If so, there isn't enough room on that wall for all of that. In addition, the island becomes a barrier b/w the rangetop and refrigerator.

If you switch the sink & DW with the refrigerator, the island becomes a major "barrier island" b/w the refrigerator and the Prep & Cooking Zones.

As to the island, even shrinking the cabinet to a 24" cabinet won't make it possible to have seating on the back side of the island - your kitchen just isn't wide enough to fit appliances & cabinets on both sides + island + seating.

To fit a seat on the opposite end (near the Hall), you would need to shrink the entire island to accommodate a seat there. In addition, that's in front of the main door from the Hall that leads to the Garage and to the Kitchen & DR. I don't recommend trying to squeeze seating in that area.

Resizing your space would make a difference...

Could you get at least 2'7"? That's what you need... Perhaps push the Kitchen out 2' and the DR wall in 7" to 12"?

I still recommend separation of the Prep & Cooking Zones from the Cleanup Zone.

As to a peninsula, I'd have to work on it to see if it would work...

Give me a couple of days to work on additional layouts.

BTW...Are you OK with the 36" doorway to the backyard?

    Bookmark   December 10, 2012 at 10:23PM
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How about this one? It just has a 2' extension of the entire Kitchen wall...the DR stays the same.

    Bookmark   December 12, 2012 at 1:31AM
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Wow, what a difference 24 little inches make!

    Bookmark   December 12, 2012 at 8:31AM
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Wow, what a difference 24 little inches make!

    Bookmark   December 12, 2012 at 7:16PM
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