Kitchen Layout Feedback V2.0

schwefelNovember 24, 2012

I posted earlier this week and got some good feeback and went back to the braying board. Here is what I came up with on the 2nd go around. (Well, more than 2nd.)

Some things to note:

- The storeage area next to the pantry is for non-food items such as cleaning products, mops, broom, etc.

- There is only one window to the outside. I do not want to move and/or change it's size. Currently the bottom of the window is about counter height.

- I put the cleanup sink in the corner to keep it by the window.

- As for electrical, gas, plumbing, etc they will be moved/redone to accomodate the kitchen. This is essentially a complete gut.

- Advice as to placement of under counter waste/recycling bins is desired.

- The 24" area to the right of the oven will be for things like the phone, mail, calendar, etc.

- The exact width of the open door ways/partial wall is adjustable. (Shrinking is easy, expanding would need structural analysis, but will be considered.

- The range will be a gas stove/oven and the wall oven will be electric. I do not expect a huge amount of use from both ovens (simultaneously) but there are occations where we really could have used two.

- I am open to most any suggestions.

- While some of the cabinets are are sized on the 3's, I plan on having custom cabinets made and will have them sized as needed. (Depending on the area.

- This is just for the base/appliance layout. I plan on wall caninets going from the pantry around to the oven.

- The family room wall could potentially be moved to create more room. (I will be able to confirm the feasability and how much of that tomorrow.)

- The breakfast bar will be primarily used breakfasts and lunch. Generally for the kids (9 & 7)

- The breakfast bar is 15 in wide.

- I am stil debating if the breakfast bar will be counter height or bar height. (Pros/cons of each are welcome.)

- I know the island kind of cuts in to the prep sink to stove movement. How close can/should I put the stove to the sink? Other great ideas are welcome.

- What did I miss?

If I forgot something, please let me know.

Thank you,


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Can you put the trash in the counter next to the sink on either side? That would be convenient for when you clean out sink or use it to peel veggies, etc. Also, close to end of island where prep will be done. Alernately, you could put it in end of island closest to sink/range area? Not sure since there is an angle on that end of island.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 7:35PM
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Do you really need the breakfast bar? I would prefer a deeper island for the kids (and guests) to sit at, facing me while I'm prepping, rather than having them face the wall.

I would also move the range to the wall where you currently show the fridge, and put the fridge on the range wall by the pantry. That's because I like to have my prep area and range as a working "galley" that others would stay out of. Putting the fridge by the pantry and the breakfast bar area would make that the natural snacking area, keeping your prep and cooking zone free.

I'd then move the dw to the other side of the sink, scoot the prep sink to the right a bit, and put trash at the very left of the island so you can access it for prep, for cleaning, and so that snackers can also access it from the side without going through your prep zone.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 8:09PM
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Some good ideas there. I am going to mock it up in the designer I am using. (The free one from Lowes.) If it looks good, I will redo my drawing and re-post.


The cutout does not have to be there. Just thought it flowed well with the angle of the pantry access.


    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 8:51PM
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One more thing, it is only partially a wall by the breakfast bar. It opens in to the DR.


    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 8:53PM
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Jason, by partial wall do you mean a knee wall? Is it a full wall to approx halfway down the bf bar and then a knee wall to the doorway? Have you thought about removing the wall to open the floor plan?

Not sure if that would make sense or not. It would depend on the larger house plan.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 9:41PM
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I guess it would be a knee wall. Yes, it is a full wall until about half way down the bf bar.

I have not really thought about that. I would have to see if it is a load bearing wall or not.

I am mocking up your previous suggestons. Not sure if I like it or not. With 4'+ clearance from the island (expanded to 4x8) to fridge, it puts me at 5' from the corner of the islan to the corner sink, though island edge to stove is right about 3' What does everyone else think about those distances? (layout will be posted soon.)

We are going to take a look at the house again tomorrow and I will have a better idea of what walls can or cannot be moved/removed. (The house is currently REO and needs quite a bit of work to be livable. Mostly mechanical, plubming, electrical brought to code [the prev owners were part way through a remodel and had no permits] and a complete new kitchen.

I am trying to figure out the kitchen as part of the due dilligence in determining the cost to rehab.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 9:52PM
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Here is the updated layout based on how I understood taggie's suggestions.

I am not sure if I like it or not. I think it is growing on me, though.

Comments, suggestions, critiques, tweaks and questions are still welcome on the first layout as well as this one.


    Bookmark   November 24, 2012 at 10:55PM
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do not install a dishwasher next to a refrigerator. The heat and humidity from the hot running appliance will cause extra energy to run the refrigerator.Perhaps swap the oven stack with the might help with framing around pantry door anyway. Are any of the 3 sink basins large enough to hold your larger pots?

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 12:09AM
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In the last plan, I'd swap the oven and the fridge. It makes a more efficient work area to have the fridge-prep-cooking together. It also solves Herbflavor's concern.

I have a 36" aisle in front of my stove, so turning from prep to stove is only a turn. You could narrow the island by 3 inches or so to get more depth to the stove aisle. I'd make sure it was a clear 36", considering counter overhang, etc.

Oh, but if you move the fridge, I guess you'd need more room... Not sure how much, because it depends on the door style of the fridge.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 5:00AM
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I am not Sure you need or want a prep sink there in the island, especially if you leave the refrigerator where it is. I would not cart food out of the fridge, to the island, and across to the stove, I would just use the corner sink. And if you were at the stove, someone else prepping would be directly behind you.

Good Luck!


    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 7:01AM
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Very good point. As for the sink basins, they have not been selected yet, but they will be big enough.


Good food for thought, integrated, more or less, in to this new iteration.


I really like the idea of a prep sink/prep area. Especially with where the fridge and stove are now, I think it will be a easy pull out of the fridge and place on the island. The island can also be a staging are for foods going to the stove. Not that you do not raise some valid points, I just see this working better for us.

Ok, here is my latest iteration. I do not even want to know what version I am up to now. This kitchen design thing is more difficult than designing a network/phone/IVR for multinational call center :P

Notes and stuff:

- Loc A: 2 shallow drawers for cooking utensils. An open vertical area for cookie sheets, cooling racks, etc

- Loc B: 1 shallow drawer for alum foil, parchmnet, plastic bags and the like. 2 deep drawers for regularly used pots and pans.

- Loc C: 1 shallow drawer for flatware. Pullout for garbage

- Loc D: 1 or 2 banks of 4 drawers

- Loc E: Full height pull out for garbage and recycling

- Loc F: Appliance (Mixer) lift and a bank of 4 drawers

- Log G: Narrow (12") drawers or a door (or both) and an open corner. Message center, home phone, charging center, etc. This will also be the "flex area" for expansion. The way I see it is that I will have the cabinet and corner fitted with a sacraficial peice that the counter will be glued to. When/if the time comes that we want a wider fridge (up to 48"), we just remove the cabinet section, attach a new sacrafical peice and put the cutdown counter on that. It is all very simple in my head, not sure if I typed it out as simple as I see it.

- Basement steps: When I go to look at the house again today, one thing I am going to look at the feasability of mounting a recessed MW in the wall there as well as trash and recycling center. Either to eliminate one of those area in the kitchen proper or to suplement them. There may be some other things I can do there to. (Recessed buffet and/or dry bar area or other convieniance.

- Dining room wall. I know I can open up the doorway to a full 10'. Currently at 3.5' (I have it on here as opened to 5') and the partial wall is 6.5'. I may explore the potential of opening it all the way to the angled storage area, for a total of 13.5' of opening in to the dining room.

I think the design is all coming together nicely. Thank you everyone for the your feedback and suggestions. Please keep them coming.


    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 10:56AM
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I'm new to this so I have no official advice but I love taggies suggestions. The latest version looks great to me!

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 11:49AM
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another thing to think about because you have pretty long counter runs as well as a long substantial island,is to make the main sink at the island,with dishwasher, and have the smaller prep sink in the corner with normal 90 degree corner which maximizes the space there. A round prep sink for instance with an eye catching faucet could make the corner a nice spot ....and I know you'll be at that island chit chatting with people/doing things anyway,so a bigger single sink and dishwasher there could be advantageous-there's plenty of inches available.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 12:46PM
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I don't like your latest version that has to stove back over beside the pantry. For me, the issue would be other family members who are snacking or getting coffee while you are trying to prep and cook efficiently.

Typically snackers or coffee drinkers want access to pantry, fridge, and sink. It drove me crazy in my pre-reno layout that whenever I was cooking, my husband was always cutting past me for coffee cream, etc. Now that my new layout has sink, fridge, pantry on the permiter I feel like its nirvana.

Just food for thought for you. You're usage and family may be different, but your latest layout does have you cooking and prepping right in the center of the path that guests and family will be taking for snacks, cleanup, coffee cream, etc.

I'm not sure if the dw beside the fridge is a real issue or not. It might be. On the other hand, we routinely see layouts with oven stacks beside the fridge and I think ovens run hotter and longer than a dw. In any case, I'd sooner move the dw back to the other side of the sink than live with cooking and prepping in the midst of a traffic paths.

Take that all with a grain of salt though, it's just what works for me personally and many people's families and usages are different. Good luck whatever you decide.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2012 at 1:56PM
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Well, went to the house for a showing yesterday and the realtor did not show up. Finally got ahold of him and an offer was accepted on Friday. Thanks for telling me. GRRRRR.

So, at least for now, this exercise is mostly moot. There have been two other offers on this place that have fallen through. (It is an REO that needs a LOT [+/- 100k] of work. If it is a flipper, it is likely that the offer will stand, if it is owner/occupier, who knows.

Thanks everyone for their input, I relly do appreciate it. If the house comes back on the market, I will resurrect this thread.



    Bookmark   November 26, 2012 at 10:11AM
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