Care to vote for a kitchen plan?

laughablemomentsNovember 15, 2012

Here is a fresh thread with the two comparables:

Review: Family of 9, almost totally scratch cooking and baking, 3 meals daily + occasional canning, freezing, batch cooking. Childrens' ages range from 1 yo to 12 yo, and frequently help in the kitchen.

I'm pretty sure we can make a custom hood if we choose to join the two stoves together as shown in Plan B.

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which one do you like better?

    Bookmark   November 15, 2012 at 5:00PM
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Have been following your thoughtful planning for a while now. As you have discovered, no plan is perfect, just which tradeoffs you are willing to accept. I vote for plan A.....frig location in plan b will block a lot of light from your only window on the stove wall. Good luck, can't wait to see your vision come to life!

    Bookmark   November 15, 2012 at 5:32PM
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Laughable- If you can extend that counter all the way to the end...what about this island plan? From Cottage house plans

    Bookmark   November 15, 2012 at 7:41PM
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I like A.

If you have more than 2 people at the stoves in B, they are going to get blocked into the corner. Plan A allows some breathing room at those stoves.

I would maybe consider moving the MW though (I can only find 1) so that you don't have to come clear around the island to get to it.

I also think in plan A, the fridges are more available to both sinks.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2012 at 8:24PM
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Which plan do I like, Deedles? Hmmm, each one has its trade-offs. Overall, I think I might prefer the peninsula plan. Would you like to cast a vote?

Thanks for chiming in Maggie. I definitely love light, and want to keep it as bright as possible in the kitchen. I look forward to seeing it come together too! : )

Thanks for your vote, Kirkhall. I don't want to be the one stuck in the corner, that's for sure! I like having 2 separate paths to the fridge, too. I don't like people being in my path of motion when I'm trying to focus on getting the cooking jobs done.

Do you have a suggestion for micro location? I'm not sure of the best spot for it.

Thanks for continuing to think it through, Lavender. The baking and stove area are very nice in your sketch, but I don't think crossing the cleanup zone to get to and from the fridges will work well, unfortunately. I think cleanup really needs to be a separate entity for us.

Now, we could swap the fridges with where you put prep and move the sink and DW back down... but I think DH wants to keep the fridges relatively close to the Dining Room--lots of traffic between the two: Milk, condiments, salads, etc. And ice cream, he needs plenty of ice cream, LOL.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2012 at 8:36PM
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I also like A due to the stoves right next to each other and into the corner. If I had to have 2 stoves I would like to have some space in between. I think if would give you some elbow room.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2012 at 8:39PM
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If you think you will use the bench, I vote for A. If you slide the fridges down next to the dining room door, I bet you could have a nice step in pantry next to immovable post on the left.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2012 at 8:54PM
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Laughable- I think you make an excellent point, about not wanting to stare at the pantry while working on the island.

Is there anyway to put the kitchen where you have the dining room now...and move the dining room to the area with the wood stove? Then the current kitchen could be the living room, as you had suggested in another post.

I like the idea of your kitchen opening up to your dining room and then the wood stove would be part of the kitchen/dining area, without being in your actual work area. Just an idea :)

    Bookmark   November 15, 2012 at 9:07PM
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I don't care for any of them as much as the plan for trading to the living room. I would feel trapped in the peninsula plan - you might want to draw the doors to the ranges open, etc. I might like plan b if the refs and ranges traded. I think you could think about whether the pair of ref/frz need to actually be side by side too.

I'm sorry but I had to laugh at the comment about working looking at the pantries - my mind immediately thought ?because its so much better to look at refrigerators?

So, this is just for fun - it definitely trades your point of view while working and restores one of the two windows.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 7:16AM
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I like A better, but ... Could you turn the bench area into a 1sided banquette?

I like the peninsula because it gives you a place to park helpers while keeping them out of the kitchen ("here, can you peel these potatoes?"). But the stools are in the way of putting someone thee to stand and work. And I think a banquette is just cozy anyways - great place to do homework and not risk getting splattered or be in the way.

However, I don't have any kids so take that with a grain of salt :)

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 7:17AM
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Though both plans offer things I like and dislike, I like B better overall. The long island makes better use of your space, whereas the penninsula /bench behind cuts off a significant area. This kitchen is large, but not huge, and you're trying to fit in a great number of items -- I don't think you can afford to divide off that large area.

I was also going to suggest that IF you go with A, you could use the bench for a banquette. On the face-the-window-side I'd use backless benches that can scoot under the table.

I do not like that A has two Lazy Susans. Perhaps it's just me, but I've decided that I don't like them. They're expensive to buy, and the quality of the storage is less than ideal. After measuring how much storage I'd have with drawers on both sides vs. a Lazy Susan, I've decided to "waste" my corner and close it off.

Two full-sized sinks? Could one of those become a medium-sized prep sink? It'd save space. Also, I think you're going to want trash in both sinks. In Plan B, I think the two sinks are too close together to be really useful.

Two ranges? Would this space be better with one large stove? Of course, one over-sized range costs more than two standard ranges. I don't think you'd like two stoves side-by-side in that corner. I think you'd get too many people crammed in that area.

I like the main sink under the window. Traditional, you know.

I like the big pantry /closet in B. This storage is much less expensive than cabinet space, and you're using up much of your cabinets space with diswashers, etc. I think you'll enjoy having that big, easy-to-find-things area.

I like the dish storage area -- convenient to the dining room and the dishwashers.

Finally, a question: I know you said you have 9 people in the household, but how many people actually cook together on a typical day in your house? Don't build a kitchen that's good for Thanksgiving meals -- unless you cook that way every day. I ask this because I grew up in a household of 7, and we did have mass cooking efforts -- occasionally. Like when we'd work together on filling the freezer with lasagnas. Most of the time, it was one person cooking, other people happening through but not really staying.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 8:43AM
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I was just looking at the ideas here and had a light bulb flash in my head.

I really like the idea of a table there. On wheels, maybe? Great place for some of the kids to park and work, snack, or chat.

I also like the idea of making the peninsula wider. I don't think there is room to make it 48'' wide so you could have drawers on both sides, but I'd make it as wide as possible. It would be great if there was room on the bench side for narrow shelves or cabinets.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 9:14AM
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Sorry I didn't answer your question about this on your other thread.
15'' uppers do not require deeper base cabs. Mine are over 24'' bases and there is no problem.
If you use the deeper uppers, which I urge you to consider, I would wrap them around the left end so you can use susans and gain that huge storage.
Here's a recent link discussing the depth of uppers and whether or not base cabs need to be deeper.

Here is a link that might be useful: 12'', 14'', or 15'' deep uppers?

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 9:26AM
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I just had a big long reply typed out and it went poof. I don't have time right now to type it again, but I'll at least post this, per Williamsem's recommendation.

As well as Camp Happy's window wall, which we could do on our back wall by the sink.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 9:28AM
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I like the pantry. With the pantry, you could afford to lose the wall cabs on the sink wall.
Imagine a window wall with a garden window over the sink. A big garden window. That might make cleanup a chore to fight for instead of run from!
Good ideas.
Isn't it fun to have ideas come from everywhichwhere and you can just reach out and snag the ones that work as they whiz by!!

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 9:36AM
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I'm liking Bmore's nicely open and simpler plan #26,345 ;-) with lots of room to move around and work together.

I've said before that I feel like the peninsula might trap everyone in, but of those plans I like the last one with the pantry.--Although I feel that the microwave drawer has to move. It's nice to have it handy for the cook, but it's trapped back there, and inaccessible to others. Having it closer to the fridge would be better...maybe beside the prep sink. Could face the island or the fridge.

Plan B doesn't have enough room in front of the fridges and prep space isn't where it's needed most.

I can't remember... Is the window at the top right of the plan the same distance off the floor as the windows over the bench?

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 10:54AM
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Bmore- LOL! I think that was in another post, comparing the view of the pantry to looking out the windows (over the bench) in the peninsula plan.

Laughable- Have you decided against moving the kitchen to another area of the house?

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 12:08PM
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    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 1:00PM
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Thank you for all the fantastic feedback everyone! Wow, I'm blown away. My couch is calling my name for a nap, but I'll try to respond to this first. : )

-I really, really like the step-in pantry area, so thanks for suggesting it, Williamsem.

-I agree about having a bit of space between the stoves, Debra. I often set things to either side of the stove while I'm working now, and would like to be able to keep doing that. Plus, utensils, hot pads and spices could be shared by both cookers in the space between them.

-Lavender, I don't think the dining room is a good kitchen conversion. Smaller space, low windows, major walkways, stairwell opening, yadda, yadda. Nice idea, though!

-Bmore, I loved the plan converting the living room to kitchen, too. Our whole household loved it--until I taped paper over the picture window at the height where the backsplash of the stoves would be. It was a dealbreaker. :( None of us liked losing our pretty view, especially when we were seated at the dining room table. But, I was struggling a bit with having it there b/c I can't see the backyard from there. I still have many more occasions of "Look, see what I can do?" to observe, and I won't miss them if the kitchen stays a kitchen.

LOL, fridges are ugly, aren't they.
I think you might have forgotten a zero or two on that plan number. ; ) I missed seeing your label, but my daughter caught it! Hahahahah. : )

You've given me a lot of food for thought with your drawing. (Rhome too!) I'll have to share it with DH. Preserving those windows would be fantastic. Thank you for giving it another shot.

Engineerchic, we could possibly do a small table for a banquette, but not a big one. We tried mocking up a full-sized table and banquette in that exact location, and it was a whole lot of scoochin', slidin', and crawlin' in and out UNDER the table (path of least resistance) during meals. I finally accepted the fact that we needed to have a table that was open on all 4 sides and moved it away from the windows again.

I like the idea of keeping all my littlest helpers safely on the other side of the peninsula too. They are literally a tripping hazard. Ask the baby that I bowled over yesterday b/c I didn't realize she was right next to me when I turned fast in the kitchen. Poor honey!

I've considered keeping a couple of comfy chairs where I have the bench drawn. They're handy for rocking those sweeties that I've knocked down like nine pins. Or for taking a break after standing a while working.

Bellsmom, thanks for popping back in. Hmmm, which would be better? I was thinking my little helpers could sit at the peninsula. But maybe we could just pull some chairs over to the counter for them to stand on. A small table like that might not be so bad. Thanks for the support of the pantry and window ideas. Garden window-whoo-wee, that'd be pretty. Would it look weird to have 1 garden style and one flat style side by side like that?

Rhome, you caught Bmore's joke that I almost missed. (Blush--one kitchen should not need this many plans.)

A couple of things. One is that we feel pretty strongly about keeping the fridges together since they often swap contents. : ) Sometimes when I'm not looking.

I need to comment on the prep sink too (thanks for all you brought to the discussion, Mrs. Pete!) I'm to the point I really,really want a full sized second sink. I need something big enough to bathe full-sized jack-o-lantern pumpkins in (making pumpkin butter this week-yum!), or to dump a bushel of apples into, or to fit any oversized pans in. I know that I would be very disappointed with a smaller size.

Of the ones you drew (thank you!), I think I like 26,435 B.

I'm conflicted about moving the fridges to that back wall. I really like the shallow shelves we have there now, and any time I've put something deeper there, it has just felt wrong. Now maybe with the counter angled the way Bmore drew it it might be better, but I'm not sure.

I missed Mrs. Pete's question,"How many people work in the kitchen?" Depends on the day and meal. It's very possible to have at least 2, sometimes up to 5 people working at one time, and a few other hanger-arounders. Sometimes I work in there alone, which can be glorious, and that's when I would appreciate it working aw efficiently for one as for a crowd.

Thanks again, everyone!

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 3:23PM
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In 26,435 B or C, you could just barely move the refs over to the sink side - but losing the window closest to the back door. The opposing wall should be kept as shallow as possible - like coat hooks or a message center and it's post. Something that didn't cause congestion.

I would hate to tell you how many plans I've drawn for my own kitchen.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 3:45PM
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I like the idea of keeping all my littlest helpers safely on the other side of the peninsula too. They are literally a tripping hazard. Ask the baby that I bowled over yesterday b/c I didn't realize she was right next to me when I turned fast in the kitchen. Poor honey!

Special areas for kids, in my experience, never work. They will be where you are, especially at that size when you can turn and trip over them. That's why I prefer a plan with more free flowing traffic and with wider aisles, if possible.

Blush--one kitchen should not need this many plans.
On the contrary, it is a process and necessary you think through it thoroughly. It gets more complex for situations with so many people involved, who will be growing and participating and bringing in friends! ;-) Plus, it's the best way to prevent that nasty 2nd-guessing later.

2 fridges: Our fridges are separated. We call one the 'snack fridge' and one the 'cooking/baking fridge' just to differentiate. I find that it's less likely contents will switch if they have separate functions and separate locations.

- The snack fridge holds everything that goes on the table or people want to access for lunches, breakfasts and snacks (condiments, lunch meats and cheeses, produce for sandwiches and salads, fruit, milk, juice, yogurt, leftovers). It's near the kitchen table and next to the breakfast center where we store peanut butter, bread, granola, chips, and have the toaster oven.

- The baking fridge holds extras... Extra gallons of milk, extra heads of lettuce... and things we use for cooking and baking, like butter, veggies used in or that need cooking, raw meats, cooking sauces, and also things like beer and wine when we have it. It's diagonal across the aisle from the prep sink, and just a few feet sideways from the stove. Handy for my needs while others access the other fridge for snacks and table-setting...No traffic tie-ups that way.

Sometimes I have to look in both fridges for odd items. I don't have to do it often, and it's in the same room, so I don't consider it a big deal. --Just my experience. It enables you to have a fridge near when you cook, and not have the island be a barrier, so I thought it might be worth consideration.

The prep sink in any of those plans could be larger. I agree with having a larger prep sink when possible. Malhgold and Zelmar even have bigger prep sinks than they do cleanup sinks.

As those little ones get bigger, you'll, at least periodically, have more people working in the kitchen than you do now. Sometimes I'm alone, and sometimes there are several, with a combination of helpers and others doing their own projects... and like I said already, they bring friends! Kids from other families seem to love access to a huge kitchen where baking and cooking are freely encouraged. :-)

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 4:05PM
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Does your front door really open into the kitchen? If so, on your last plan A and Rhome's plan A, anyone coming through that door will be looking at the side of the refrigerators. Maybe a nice hutch would be better there and use it for dishes.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 4:13PM
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A wall section along that side of the fridge facing the doorway could solve that problem, with artwork or a shallow shelf. Good catch.

That seems familiar, though, Laughable, like maybe we considered that issue at about plan #302? ;-)

    Bookmark   November 16, 2012 at 5:19PM
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Thank you, Bmore and Rhome, for not letting me get discouraged with the number of plans. Sometimes I feel like I'm being really ridiculous, and wonder why I can't just "get it together" and make a decision. And DH can't figure out why anyone that he's remodeled for seems to decide and move on so much more easily than I do (which I remind him that they aren't trying to plan doubles of almost everything, and they are seldom cooking from scratch!)

Thanks too, for explaining how you organize your fridges. We have labels on our shelves where everything is supposed to go, and one fridge is mostly for dairy and leftovers, and the other is for fruits, veggies, and pasta gets stored in the door b/c my friendly pantry moths refuse to find new digs. Sometimes I only shop about every 2 weeks, and so when I come home, those fridges get filled to the gills, so stuff just has to go wherever it will fit.

Overall, I'm still leaning toward the peninsula plan. My dad has a peninsula, and it really does do a good job of involving people while keeping them out of the way (not the babies, of course.)

I like the ability to set stuff from the fridge right across the aisle on the peninsula, or to grab stuff from the pantry and do the same thing with the island.

OK, I am head-over-heels in love with the idea of the pantry and incorporating it into that strange spot with the posts. It turns them into more of an asset than a hindrance.

I checked out both Malhgold's and Zelmar's kitchens. Fantastic spaces. It was interesting to me to read how Zelmar likes the peninsula close by her stove in the thread linked below. She finds it nice to just have to reach to one side to set stuff down, rather than having to spin around to an island behind her. I've been thinking this through, and that would work really well for me. I had a sink across the aisle from the stove in my last house, and as I think back on it, I remember getting dizzy (literally, must be a slight vertigo thing) trying to go back and forth between the two. I'd do a lot better to pivot just a bit to the side rather than a full spin around.

Kalapointer, looking at the fridge side from the front door is a very good point. I remember visiting topic that a while back, too Rhome. At the time, I didn't want it so close to the front door. I'm over that now, LOL. I want the space in the pantry! I'd be fine with extending the wall and hanging a picture on it, or insetting an alcove (Beuhl's calender alcove comes to mind).

Would it be weird to see a calendar as you come in the front door??? I could hang this pretty one:
It would be right across the way from our command center next to the front door, and within a look-see from the computer.

We had a family of 10 over for the day yesterday. Reminds me that I'd like to have meal seating space for a crowd. Maybe sliding a table into the front bench needs to be accounted for.

Here is a link that might be useful: Peninsula or island thread--mamadadapaige's planning

    Bookmark   November 19, 2012 at 4:22PM
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I may be completely wrong, but I think Zelmar designed her peninsula space as an efficient work area for herself? Not for 9.

But we are all here only to point out possible pitfalls, so you can add or subtract, absorb or ignore, as suits you. If we didn't all have different preferences, all our kitchens would look the same. And where would the fun be in that?!

    Bookmark   November 19, 2012 at 8:06PM
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