15'x13'8" kitchen floor plan suggestions needed!

mabeldingeldine_gwNovember 15, 2013

I have somewhat challenging kitchen layout. I am fortunate to have a small pantry and a dining nook.

I've posted a preliminary layout. The range is currently on the dining room wall with no hood, and there is a long peninsula with a narrow pinch-point in front of the fridge. The new plan moves the range to an external wall between two windows which will be counter height and swaps the peninsula for a small island. I have not moved the sink, but added a beverage sink/coffee station near the dining nook (should move the cab into the corner or leave it and extend counter into the corner?)

I'd like to eliminate the upper cabs so need to maximize cabinet space. All the base cabs except the sinks will be drawers. If needed they could go in the dining room wall. Both the dining room and sitting room walls are load bearing so we won't be moving any walls. This is a DIY job by two skilled DIYers and will probably opt for Ikea.

I would greatly appreciate all suggestions.

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Not seeing your picture?

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 1:09PM
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hmmm, don't know what happened there.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 2:20PM
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Are you willing to remove a window at the top left? This would let you put the wall ovens on the top wall.

Something like this?

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 2:37PM
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I'd try centering the sink & DW on the top wall (so the sink will be off center to the right, with DW to the left of sink) and move the cooktop to the right wall, next to the ovens.

Moving the sink and range like this gets the primary sink out of the corner, gets DW out of primary prep (counter between sink & cooktop), and gives you some room for a wall cabinet for glassware storage above the dishwasher. This also puts your primary prep in front of the window on the right, which is a nice feature I think. And it puts the cooktop closer to the oven, which is handy when things go from one to the other (which is often for us, but less so for others). And, as if that's not enough ;), fridge-sink-cooktop is a more funcional order of operation than fridge-cooktop-sink.

This post was edited by GauchoGordo1993 on Fri, Nov 15, 13 at 14:44

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 2:38PM
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like this

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 3:41PM
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I'd also consider going with a range instead of cooktop wall oven combo. Wall ovens have their advantages, mostly aesthetic but also ergonomic, but there are significant disadvantages as well, especially: cost, space, and lack of exhaust.

With a range I suggest this - seems much more spacious I think.

    Bookmark   November 15, 2013 at 4:05PM
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Thanks for the ideas. Laughable, the kitchen is on the front of the house, so removing a window is out -- and we need the natural light as that wall faces northeast.

Gaucho, the range is on the dining room wall now, but not vented and structural challenges will prevent that unless we add a soffit to that wall and vent it through the soffit. Adding a good vent is one of the primary goals of this remodel.

The wall oven is a little luxury I'd like to add but can be eliminated. I have a good range, but wanted to add a second oven as I bake quite a bit, and this kitchen is going to carry us well into retirement (I hope).

There are a lot of challenges with this old house, but we love it!

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 5:13AM
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Perhaps put a second oven under counter and move the sink to the wall on the right. There is no law that says a sink needs to be under a window. Mine is not. The sink in your first layout looks incredibly awkward there in the corner and doesn't leave adequate space between it and the range.

I'm confused by your coffee station. It seems to not have any counter around the sink at all. I would move the sink as far as possible in one direction or the other to maximize counter space for a coffee maker there. And use a very small sink. Definitely add uppers for mugs, even if you don't desire uppers elsewhere in the kitchen.

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 9:19AM
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Are you familiar with the ranges that have 2 ovens under the cooktop? This might be one way to get you two ovens without eating up valuable wall and cabinet space.

How integral is the wall btw the kitchen and dining room? I have some ideas to play with, but I'd like to know if you're comfortable breaking through that wall or not. Can the doorway to the dining room be moved? Do you want the dining room to feel like a completely separate space from the kitchen, or would you enjoy them being more integrated?

Here is a link that might be useful: Double oven ranges on Google

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 9:53AM
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Great idea about a double oven! If I ditch the wall oven I could afford to upgrade to a larger range, even.

Unfortunately, the walls between the kitchen and DR are structural, and the DR wall has a stairway on it. The DR is located in the second ell of my cape with an ell and an ell and a barn (very common in Maine).

I could move the sink, good thought. I will have to noodle around some more on Ikea later today -- but first I have to go and dig my potatoes!

    Bookmark   November 16, 2013 at 1:03PM
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New plan based on the suggestions above AND hubs pointing out I mis-measured one wall. I also figured out a few more Ikea tools to make it a bit more realistic.

With the sink moved to the DR wall I felt like we could eliminate the second sink as the sink is now pretty close. I added uppers in the corner (with MW), above the coffee station, and above the fridge. For now, I'm abandoning the idea of a wall oven -- I can't have my cake and eat it too I guess.

This plan shows the DW on the left of the sink. Would it be better to move the sink enough to put the DW on the right of the sink? Another option that would preserve corner storage is to put the DW in the island.

I welcome additional suggestions, and thanks for the ones you all have made!

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 5:52PM
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I'm not sure where you have the 13' 8". If you move the fridge to the DR wall and have a peninsula and move DW and sink (and maybe coffee station) there, how wide would the distance b/w fridge and peninsula be?

The island in your layouts seem to create a barrier b/w sink and fridge.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 7:21PM
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Ohhh, that is in interesting idea! It is amazing how hard it is to think outside what you have. Clearly it would never have occurred to me to move the fridge!

I will tinker with this idea today. One reason for the island versus the current peninsula was to make it easier to get in and out of the function area, but with the sink in the peninsula that is less of an issue. Thanks!

    Bookmark   November 18, 2013 at 7:44AM
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Based on sena01's drawing, I came up with a new layout.

It has many benefits. Questions:

1. What do people think about the dead space behind the peninsula cabinets on the far left? I hate to wast any space, but can't see how to utilize the space without mucking with the load bearing wall.

2. What are your thoughts on the sink in the peninsula? I'm an avid cook, but a messy cook. The room isn't really on display from the dining room, but still....

3. Will I feel trapped in there, or will having the sink in the peninsula solve that problem? In my current kitchen, that is a real problem.

Which would you prefer, and why this view or the above with a small island? Other thoughts?

    Bookmark   November 19, 2013 at 2:46PM
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Is your #8 big enough for a DW? How big is the sink base? You'll want to maximize the space between sink and fridge.

Compared to Sena's sketch, you added a row of cabinets to the peninsula, and moved the sink side in closer. Does this leave you enough room between sink and range? Remember to measure from the edge of the countertop (typically an inch overhang).

I think you can do that, with different cabinet sizes. It looks like you can fit a 42"-wide cab against wall C. Does Ikea have deeper base cabinets? If not, you can simply pull the base cab out from the wall (as you have shown), and put countertop all the way back. That might make a handy drop zone from the breakfast nook. Backing up against the sink, use cabinets the same size as 8 and 9. I would put an upper cabinet as wide as wall C - go 15" deep, if you can.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2013 at 3:33PM
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Peninsula layout has some nice features, but I'll focus on the issues I see:
1) Sub-optimal primary prep. The most convenient place for primary prep is counter betwen the sink and cooktop (continuous counter between them, or at least between sink and counter is preferred). Where would primary prep be in this layout? I'm guessing it would be the counter to the left of the cooktop, which is ok, but it seems a little remote & isolated, and it's not continuous counter with the sink, which is worse than your original layout with primary prep on the island because the island location only suffered from the latter shortcoming (not continuous counter with sink) but not the former (isolated).
2) Insufficient sink landing. Sink should have min 18" landing on each side. See 31 kitchen design rules for more info
3) Unsufficient aisle width in front of fridge. 4' aisle in front of fridge is ideal, 42" is workable, 39" is not enough.
4) Awkward/crowded dishwasher placement. Unloading the dishwasher interferes with sink and primary prep. It's also not clear where you'll store glasses, plates, bowls, and flatwear - you want them near the dishwasher to facilitate unloading, but you also want your prep tools near primary prep, and you want to be able to get stuff to set the table or grab an extra fork without interfering with primary prep.
5) Bottom left corner is orphaned. Maybe I just don't understand what you have planned for that corner in the latest layout, but it looks like you just couldn't figure out what to do with it. Maybe make it a pantry closet?

Here is a link that might be useful: 31 kitchen design rules

This post was edited by GauchoGordo1993 on Tue, Nov 19, 13 at 17:06

    Bookmark   November 19, 2013 at 4:39PM
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I prefer your Nov 17 layout, except I'd put the DW on the right of the sink. I just don't think the peninsula gives you enough room around the sink to really function well. And I, personally, do think you'll feel trapped, at least in comparison to the other options. The one big negative with the Nov. 17 layout is the barrier island between the fridge and sink. But I don't really see how to fix in your space and still allow adequate prep and clean-up space.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2013 at 5:03PM
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Well it seems peninsula wouldn't work with your dimensions.

Maybe you can consider one of the stand alone islands that you can move, with your Nov. 17 layout. For extra storage you can have a 15" high cab where you planned the coffee station and use a smaller cab for coffee. If you work alone in the kitchen the DW in your prep space wouldn't bother me a lot, but since you also have the MW in the upper cab, these would be better on the other side of the sink.

    Bookmark   November 19, 2013 at 7:15PM
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I also like your 11/17 plan best, Mabel, although I haven't fallen in love with anything yet. You have a good size space, but because of the doorways all layouts have the kitchen scrunched up a bit. It'd be nice to unscrunch it somehow. Certainly no or minimal upper cabinets will help.

In any case, I feel pretty sure that I would choose to keep the workspace opened up to the sitting room and breakfast nook so we could just get up and stroll into the kitchen and back.

Regarding storage, I did my kitchen without uppers and would do it all over again. FWIW, it seems to me your initial layouts have pretty decent storage space, especially with the pantry there, and a basement or other closet for whatever only gets pulled out 2 or 3 times a year.

Just musing. It sounds as if you like your pantry, but, if it's not a shed with a low ceiling, have you considered running the counter right on back into that space, gaining another more than 3 feet for...ovens, refrigerator...? That would definitely unscrunch that side of the room as it would simply keep going back there. I like that most of that corner would still not be on sight. A little mystery is good.

Shallow storage could cover the opposite pantry wall. I have had 12" deep wall storage in 2 houses now and really like it.

From this side of the screen, I'm liking having the refrigerator in the pantry more and more as I think about it. :). It would create a good work flow clockwise down the counter, with the island no longer a barrier. A negative, of course, would be having it that far from the dining room, but the breakfast area would have a straight line to it without crossing the stove area.

Visually, getting the "elephant" out of the room would also be a very nice plus, furthering the open feeling of no uppers. That corner by the sitting room doorway could instead by occupied by a charming built in cabinet, bookcase, antique chest, extra dining chair...

The ovens, of course, could go there, with the island to set on. Have you considered setting an extra oven into the island, itself, though, or? My one oven is set under the counter to the left of my stovetop, so the counter above is its landing spot. (Also, this isn't Maine. It's Georgia, and never having to work in front of it is a very good thing.)

From another messy cook, talking about a sink on view in a peninsula or wherever, our sink was going just to the right of the main view line down the house. So I chose a single bowl sink 29" long and 9-1/2" deep after verifying that everything from a normal meal can disappear right into it, pots and pans included, with room to spare.

    Bookmark   November 20, 2013 at 9:02AM
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Rosie, thanks for the very thoughtful post -- I found it really helpful.

I wish I could get the fridge in there, but the space really is a small nook carved out over the basement stairs. Above the stair wall there is currently a small counter where I keep my mixer -- it serves as my baking area.

Based on your suggestions, I re-drew the plan to add wall ovens in the current pantry. This would allow me to add a 36" range top which is my ideal scenario. I cook and can a lot, and this would get the oven higher and give me more burner space where it can easily be vented.

I put the sink back on the DR wall, and moved the DW across from it in the island -- unusual, I know, but it mimics the setup we have now which I really like. With this setup I felt we could eliminate the sink in the coffee station. While the island is a bit of a barrier, it offers two exits versus the one my current peninsula offers, and a larger place for rolling out dough, etc.

I'd love to hear any other ideas.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2013 at 3:26PM
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