Help With Layout

smthakker1November 1, 2013

Hello, I have been lurking here gleaning the wealth of knowledge from you folks. I am pretty much finalized on my layout, but need a little help with some final details. Please if you could lend me 30 seconds of expertise, I would stop stressing over these silly things.

basically what I am concerned about right now is.

1. The sink base they have for this layout is a 30" which, but I would like to get a granite composite sink which does not come in that size. The size I am going with is the one for the 27" base, Blanco Diamond 25 X 22. If that is the case, I want to reduce the 30" to a 27" to get some space back, but my KD says it wont be center on the window.

2. I also see 3" filler on either side of the lazy susan. Do I need that much filler?

3. I also want the 12" cabinet next to the sink on the left to store a garbage. I am looking to put a rev-a-shelf after market which has 10 3/4" footprint. I am not sure if it will fit.

can someone give me some guidance...

Thank You

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No design expert here but what if you were to place use a 9" cabinet to the left of the sink, use a 36" sink cabinet and get the sink you long for and put the pull out for trash under the sink as many do. To the right of the DW, I would use one 33" cabinet with drawers. 12" cabinets don't work that great, so I would try minimizing small cabinets.

I don't know about the filler around your lazy suzy.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 10:52AM
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12" cabinet is not wide enough for 10 3/4" trash pull-out. Eliminating the 3" fill and changing the 12" to a 15" would do the trick. I would eliminate the 3" fill on both sides of the corner. Can't see that they serve any purpose. Why did you KD put them in the plan?

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 11:07AM
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Thanks Aloha,

The end run of the cabinets 24" drawers is to accomodate a microwave drawer, so I cannot switch that to a 36" base. I really dont care to go bigger than 30" for the sink as I will just be sacrificing counter space. If I could find a nice granite sink that would fit that cab, I would have no problem, however it seems to be an odd size for granite sinks.

Do you think bowl 22L x 19W x 10D is a good size sink? My kitchen is not the largest space, so I am trying to utilize every square inch.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 11:08AM
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Hi Cindy,

I dont know why.. I am not a cabinet person, So I just figured they were necessary... I am asking that question now -- I am hoping he did it to get teh sink centered and get me the 30" base, but it is confusing.

I would love to steal back 3 inches from that filler and 3 inches from my sink base and add them to the 2 12's to make 2 15's.

Do you think it matters much if the cab is not centered to the window?

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 11:11AM
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Would you consider swapping the range and refrigerator placements?

My reason for suggesting this is that if your range was on the wall where the fridge is now, you'd have an unbroken line of counters from range to sink

At present you have only dinky work surfaces on either side of the range.

If the fridge was on the range wall you could have all of the counter space available on one side of it, and no issues with the door not opening fully. If you had planned for a pantry on the left side of the fridge, you could either leave it there or move it with fridge and have just a small landing zone with whatever space remains. Some people like to have a small landing zone between tall pantry and fridge if they are isolated on a wall as I am suggesting.

Aside from de minimus hot landing & work zones beside the range (as currently drawn), if you put the range to sink axis along an ell you are carving out a good protected and unified work zone as most prepping happens between sink and range. Right now you have to walk back forth across the whiole width of the room to do simple things like add a bit of water to a pot or drain the pasta.

If you don't want to move the range, I would abandon having it with evenly balanced landing zones. I'd take as much as possible from one side and add it to the other in order to a get a larger usable space on one side at least. But it would be much better just to move the range.

Another side benefit with moving the fridge is that you could spec deeper base cabs beside it, with a deeper counter above that. This would give you more of a "built-in" look for your fridge, at a very small cost, while also making for very useful deep counters beside the fridge for small aplliances like MW, coffee maker, toasters, etc. which if left on a normal-depth counter chew up a lot of your working space. Making this change would also effectively shrink your travel path between sink and fridge making your kitchen a teeny bit easier to work in.

I don't suppose the current fridge wall is an exterior one, is it? If so then it will make venting the range simpler, but at least moving it will get it closer to an external wall (the sink one.)

As far as centering the sink if you go down a few inches to accommodate a smaller sink then those inches are just added to the adjacent cab sizes, so sink will stay centered.

Try to get as many cabs with all-drawers as possible, and also combine them into larger units, rather than twelve and nine to make twenty one as you appear to have beside the stove. If you need vertical slotting, use the space over the fridge for that. If that's an oil-and-spice pullout, put those things in a drawer with some after-market dividers instead. Those pull-outs are expensive and though they seem like attractive solutions they aren't even the best choice temperature wise. Often they appear in large kitchens and where you've got money and space to burn they fit just fine Otherwise, I'd skip them in favor of more useful, unified drawers you can arrange in many ways, as your needs change.



    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 11:29AM
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How about if you have a 27" sink base, adding both that 3" and the unnecessary 3" from the corner fill and make an 18" base cab left of sink (more usable size for a base cab) and leaving the 12" on the other side for a tray or some other type of pull out. Then, center your faucet in the window and call it good.

Or, do 2 15" cabs and leave your window centered, as you said.

I can't figure a functional reason for fill on either side of a lazy susan corner, at all. Waste of space, IMO.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 11:31AM
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I think I misread the plan. It actually looks like the Filler is only 1" on eitehr side of the susan. But if its not needed, as deedles and cindy had said, then I could steal back the 1" add 3 to the 12 to get my 15" pullout trash and stay with the 27" sink base.. and all is well.


Wow that was a very informative post. Unfortunately the budget was a big factor in moving the range and the refrigerator. I also did not want the fridge to be visible when you walk into the room... I dont know if that makes sense. I am however putting some more thought into the range countertop space and teh spice rack pullout. I was hoping that the pullout would solve my current issues, but as you said, maybe theer are some more aftermarket things I could do. The large drawers might be worth it. I am going to go discuss this with my wife.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 11:54AM
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I also did not want the fridge to be visible when you walk into the room

I understand that some people want to see the fridge as little as possible, but you if you leave the fridge on the left wall, you'll have nearly 6' b/w the sink and the range. I think it would be very unfunctional, and maybe even dangerous if you have small kids.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 12:40PM
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I didn't even see the fridge/range issue when I made my last post. Absolutely agree with liriodendron and sen01... if you can move them, do so.

About the thousandth time you cross the floor with a pan full of hot something saying "look out" you'll wish you had listened. Think of how pans and bowls full of water slosh when you have to take more than a couple steps with them. Now think of that water scalding hot. And, putting the fridge over there does give you some nice tall pantry options, too.

It's a way better idea than what you have drawn. Don't mean to be too blunt but really, think about it objectively. :)

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 12:54PM
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I agree move the range. I just got rid of a kitchen like that after living with it for over 20 years. Terrible design.

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 1:08PM
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Similar to what others have said...swapping the fridge and range, but I'd move the microwave there and make sure you leave yourself a little landing space. Would a banquette be a possibility? From Kitchen plans

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 1:33PM
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LL's drawing is what I was suggesting but I'd have the fridge's landing spot on the other side so as to open the fridge toward the cooking zone, not the side toward the table. Thatway you don't have to walk around the door to open it and your landing zone is more convenient for the rest of the prep areas.

If you dislike the boxiness of a visible refrigerator side you could put in some very narrows shelves (like library mag racks) to display pretty cookboks, or etc. Or use it in some other decorative way.

Infrastructure costs to make the swap: move 220 v line (if you have or plan to have electric range) and move cold water line for ice maker to where ever fridge is. These shouldn't be prohibitive, especially if you're opening the walls. The typically expensive one, the plumbing, isn't the same as running a water line that needs a whole drain and vent stack assembly. That is the expensive part of moving a water line. But for fridge water, all you need is a supply line and that can be PEX, and go almost anywhere.

I'm not sure I agree fridges are more visually offensive than a stove/range. It's a kitchen! You could spring for some wood-faced fridge camouflage, it it really offends thee.

Edited to add: Oh, duh, the gas line if you're planning for a gas range! Still not a big deal, and probably about on par for moving a 220 live for an electric range. Though on a slab, gas could be trickier as I don't think you can just snake it around, willy-nilly, through walls like PEX or electric wires. Sorry, I got you confused with the post re gas or electric stoves from earlier today.


This post was edited by liriodendron on Fri, Nov 1, 13 at 14:23

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 2:17PM
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I prefer the new range placement as well.

I suggest you carefully consider the costs (in $ and ascetics) & benefits of the wall cabinets above your primary prep counter (counter between sink & range). Do you really need those cabinets? Wouldn't it be more pleasant to prep there without cabinets in your face?

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 2:37PM
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L- That's a good idea, too! I put the landing space on that side, because I added the banquette where the little cabinets were. I thought this way you could have coffee/snack area closer to the table.

OP- I know this isn't what you asked in your question, but if you give us a picture (especially on a Friday) you're going to get lots of ideas! :)

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 2:45PM
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I agree about the range/fridge, that's not an incremental improvement, it's a huge leap forward and worth some serious consideration. If you have or will have kids, it's a burn waiting to happen when they are underfoot. Or, if you entertain at all, even a small group or just your parents, you will be dodging them as you go back and forth prepping and cooking. We know everyone likes to congregate in the kitchen!

As for your sink, you would not be alone in having it off center. That comes up frequently here. My personal opinion is that as long as it is either all under (or just a sliver that isn't under) or all decidedly -not- under the window then it will very likely look fine. If there's and advantage to be gained by offsetting it a bit, then go for it.

My own sink is 2-3 inches offset and I don't even notice it. It's a small window almost the same size as the sink, so I think my eye just sees it as "under the window" and moves on. There was someone here that recently posted, can't remember if it was about their own kitchen or someone else's, that the amount of in-centered-ness of the sink in the plan would drive him crazy. Then returned to say his own current sink was even further off center and he hadn't noticed!

    Bookmark   November 1, 2013 at 4:11PM
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I agree that relocating the refrigerator and range would give you the best layout and would seriously consider this option. If it's not in the budget, though, then changing your sink base 30 to a sink base 27 and removing the 1" fillers from either side of the lazy susan would only offset the center of the sink by a 1/2". I'm pretty sure the Blanco sink you want is sort of "D" shaped which would put the faucet off to the left or right. You would never notice the sink being off by a 1/2". (that is if the walls are not out of square and the susan has to be pushed over to the right) .. . . . . Make the base cabinet to the left of your sink a base 15. .. I also agree that you shouldn't break up the cabinetry to the right of the range . . a base 21 with roll out trays on either side would be more useful than a drawer base 12 and base 9. Also, I don't see a panel between the refrigerator and the drawer base to the right . . . you need one there to box in the refrigerator and give support to the right front part of the 24" deep refrigerator cabinet. . . . One final thought, there doesn't seem to be much room allotted for countertop overhang to the right and left of range but it's hard to read, the measurements are a bit blurry . .

    Bookmark   November 2, 2013 at 8:14PM
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