Disparity of pricing in Kitchen Cabinets

Lorenza5064November 21, 2012

I am planning a total kitchen renovation. I have a design that I have paid a designer to develop. I am now shopping for the cabinets. I have obtained quotes from three separate vendors representing six manufacturers. Given that construction techniques, materials(including glides, hinges, wood species and finishes) are equivalent among the cabinet companies, I am flummoxed by the disparity of the quotes. The main difference between the high and low quotes is that the the high end $$ are from larger companies, the lower $$ are from smaller mfrs. including Amish Companies. Inquiries re finishes and warranties have been made and compared as well. Any insights from others who have had this dilemma?

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jakuvall

A list of the companies would help. Usually the differences are:markup, details in the design that consumers don't notice, and frame construction. Least pricey are pocket hole frames,next are doweled, and most expensive are mortise andtenon frames (not doors).
Details in the design-to tell you need a list or an explanation from the dealer. They are things that make the install easier/ better.
The Amish are known to be a good value.
You may alsobe getting a break for already having a design fromsome and not others. Very few companies discountfor that

    Bookmark   November 21, 2012 at 8:29AM
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PRO
Sophie Wheeler

Not to say that some custom cabinet makers who are worth of the name don't produce some beautiful and durable cabinets. It's just they will never equal the durability of a finish that almost any larger company can put on a cabinet.

And most of those money differrences in those quotes will be due to the quality of the wood used and it's finishing process. I have yet to find a small cabinet maker who can produce a product that will be both beautiful and pass the most rigid KCMA testing prcedures for finishes. There are all different grade of catalyzed varnish, and the most hazardous to deal with top grade stuff will provide the best protection. However, most small shops aren't equipped with the necessary equipment to use these products. Nor do many of them want to pay the money to buy enough quantity to make them affordable to use. A large company can buy several 55 gallon drubs of A B components per week. There just isn't any way a small shop will even do 5 gallons.

    Bookmark   November 21, 2012 at 10:05AM
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kompy

A list of vendors would help.

I know of one cabinet line that is an "ALL WOOD" cabinet but their finish is CR@P!!! I know of a "builder grade" line whose finish is semi-custom to custom looking and no one would ever guess they are inexpensive!!!

The finish is just as important, if not more important than the construction. You can always beef up the ends and upgrade to soft-close drawers with just about any line nowadays. The finish is what you see and what takes the daily abuse.
KOMPY

    Bookmark   November 21, 2012 at 12:53PM
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Lorenza5064

Okay, vendor names are important for this discussion. From high end to low; Pennville, Mouser, Greenfield, Nichols, Kemp, and an independent Amish cabinetmaker. I have seen a completed kitchen by the Amish cabinetmaker. It has been in place nearly a year and is the white painted finish and door style I would choose. It was handsome and the detail work and finish were very nice. My research has indicated that the finish he applies meets the KCMA standards and he is guaranteeing the finish for 5 years. With a price differential of more than 25% from high end to low, I have pretty much decided to work with him.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 6:32PM
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jakuvall

As to your original question,- Pennville are loose tnone frames, Mouser are doweled, Kemper are pocket hole. Don't know the others. There will be other construction details that differ. Bottom line is the price palcement on your list is proper. No way to tell but I'd suspect the Amish are pocket hole- most local makers use that.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 7:01PM
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jakuvall

As to your original question,- Pennville are loose tnone frames, Mouser are doweled, Kemper are pocket hole. Don't know the others. There will be other construction details that differ. Bottom line is the price palcement on your list is proper. No way to tell but I'd suspect the Amish are pocket hole- most local makers use that.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 7:02PM
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Lorenza5064

jakuvall (as in "trades"...) Many thx for your follow up. Now, if you could only provide a brief tutorial re the three frame construction techniques that you mentioned. What are the salient differences among the three in terms of form and function? A bit more background re my skepticism about big names and big prices; I purchased a WoodMode kitchen 22 years ago, the one that I am replacing. I thought I was buying quality per the name and reputation. My experience has been that the finish (paint) has stood up fairly well, although all of the door and drawer fronts had to be replaced within the first year because of finish failure. It is a painted finish that cracked and crazed. So you might understand my approach and my apprehension as I undertake the renovation. Ciao Ciao and Mille grazie

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 8:08PM
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jakuvall

...and master of none":) wasn't sure I wanted to get into this - it's long, but here you go.

The frame is the structure on a framed cabinet. Frames are glued. Modern glues are incredibly strong but bond best when the wood is glued long grain to long grain. An end grain to long grain joint will fail without any other means of connection.

A pocket hole joint is end grain to long grain, so a metal screw is added to hold the joint together longer, increase the strength. Without the screw the joint will fail. (when installing pocket hole cabinets it is a good idea not to put too much pressure in the middle of a wide top rail or you may hear a little crack. Once the counters are on the load is distribuetd so not as big an issue)

The other factore is that wood expands and contracts seasonally. Metal does not. As the wood expands it pushes against the metal of the screw and compresses. Eventually it compresses and does not expand back again. This is called "compression set". That's what causes the heads to fall off of hammers (see Bruce Hoadley- Understanding Wood)
Until the invention of pocket hole screws some form of joint was always used to allow for a long grain to long grain glue joint. Originally this was a mortise and tenon- the strongest most durable joint for this application.

A loose tenon, or dowels are a variations on the tenon joint. Both are easier to use in production. Loose tenon having more surface for the glue joint and IF properly fit (big if,I once handled a brand that used loose tenons that I will not sell) are better than dowels. Dowels are easier to use in production and don't have the same fit problems.

Which construction one picks is a matter of budget and how long you want things to last. Pocket holes frames are just fine, there are lots of pocket hole cabinets out there, likely more than 70% of the market (I carry one in my store and put them in my fathers kitchen-in wood) Overall though, mfg using better frame construction typically use better methods for other aspects of construction, particularly since it is something that you don't see and that the average consumer must be shown. Hoever price does not always guarantee better construction, there are some pricey pocket hole cabinets.
So when you ask about the disparity in cabinet pricing, there is a little more to it than dovetail drawers with soft close and some sort of..don't get me starte- plywood sides- those are the easiest things for a mfg to control and IMO are not indicative of quality, merely the minimum requirements.

As to your paint issue- I'm surprised but don't doubt you. I used to work for a Wood-Mode/Brookhaven dealer for 8 years, very nice cabinet, good company (they did replace your doors). During my tenure there we likely sold 1000 kitchens in those brands, statistically 40% would have been painted. Never had an issue similar to yours.

I wonder if 22 years ago the paint was different, polyester perhaps. It is one of the materials that has a tendancy to craze, especially as formulated back then (spent a while dealing with lots of kinds of materials, where the jakuvall comes from)
The most common reason I've ever seen crazing is the inadvertant inroduction of a solvent. It can be surprising what cleaning products have solvents. But hard to say.
Cracking- if it was at the joints that is to be expected in a painted finish- in any brand with any joint. It will be less with better joints, but wood moves more than paint. Other cracking- have not idea.
BTW Wood-Mode cabinets are doweled- one reason they lasted 22 years.

    Bookmark   November 27, 2012 at 11:07PM
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SparklingWater

OP: thank you for asking these questions and starting this thread.

To hollysprings, kompy and jakuvall: how do we ever thank you for your endless teaching? A wonderful holiday season to you all is the least I can offer.

-SW

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 7:13PM
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islanddevil

Wow great thread. I'm just starting to think about redoing my kitchen and 2 bathrooms. My dream kitchen includes a soft white shaker style cabinet with the most durable finish. At this point I don't know what makes the best finish or what to look for regarding construction, but you guys have given me some great info to start with. Thanks!

    Bookmark   November 29, 2012 at 11:14PM
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kompy

The best painted finish I have sold is Plain & Fancy. But not everyone has a budget for that line of cabinets. Plain & Fancy is probably 20% to 50% more than KraftMaid....depending on where you live, the dealers markups and what sales/promotions are going on.

If I couldn't get P&F, then I think Showplace or Medallion would be the next step down. Shiloh is right there too. But I have run across a couple of rough spots on the Shiloh finish recently. For the builder budget, Medallion offers Silverline in their painted finish...a GREAT value!!! I am posting a photo of Medallion's SILVERLINE painted Carlisle doorstyle....one of my best sellers!!!

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 12:04PM
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better2boutside

Another aspect that affects price is the level of choices in door styles and how those doors are made. For example, Yorktowne & Medallion have set door/drawer combinations with specific edge profiles and door center panels. Executive (semi custom) will offer you a choice of center panel & drawer heads (slab or recessed center panel), but not the edge profiles. Rutt & Rutt Regency (custom) you can have any door any way with choices of rail/stile widths, center panels, edge profiles and drawer heads.

Each cabinet line is different their level of wood grain/color matching. Yorktown & Medallion will use nearly every stick that comes off the truck. They are not very selective if the wood colors or graining matches. This is very noticeable in Cherry as well as light stained oak & maple. Executive is better, but Rutt/Rutt Regency is by far the best. Since Rutt makes all their own doors, they can be selective of the wood for color and grain matching.

Just as a note, while Rutt is competitive with Woodmode & Rutt Regency is competitive with Brookhaven/Signature/Plato/Kountry Kraft/Plain & Fancy etc.

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 4:48PM
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KAREN WICKHAM

I know we are talking about painted cabinets, and since there are some very knowlegable experts here, I would like to ask which cabinet manufacturer has the best finish for dark stained cabinets, not painted cabinets
TIA Karen

    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 5:53PM
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jakuvall

sparkling water happy to you too :)

Parts- there is no "best"
You will find the most consistant dark finishes in cherry.
Other than that the variables involved in finishing are more complex than construction and harder to describe.

Ther are a number of brands that KD's or reps will refer to as known for their finish. Brookhave/Wood-Mode, Quality Custom (QCCI), Rutt, Crystal, Plain n Fancy, Dura Supreme, Signature (I would agree with Kompy about Showplace at the price) was just speaking with mamadapige who likes Pennville.
Likely someone will want to add to the list- these are the ones I've heard the most talk of. A lot has to do with market share though.
Some are "better" than others but the pros could argue which, usually in favor of whatever we sell. (On that list -I sell QCCI and Showplace, used to work for a Wood-Mode dealer)

In many a cases a brand can get one color or finish right and not another. A good KD will tell you. My own opinion is that mid size companies (at any price) more often do a better job than either large or small ones. With the exception o Wood-Mode who is the most commonly referred to "our finish is just like..." And bigger than many.

Some better brands always use a color contol sample-a door done in the style and finish you want, signed off on, cut in half, half goes back to factory to be used for referance where they will tone anything that needs it resulting in superior consistancy.

Lastly, as I've said before, who you work with is more important than ANY specific brand.

This post was edited by jakuvall on Fri, Nov 30, 12 at 21:49

1 Like    Bookmark   November 30, 2012 at 9:36PM
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kompy

Agree with everything Jakuvall said...especially "there is no best". Each line has a niche...what us as kitchen designers, have learned over time which lines work better with certain criteria. For instance, for me and my manufacturers, if someone wants a 'shaker' style, I almost always steer them towards Medallion or Silverline....they offer a ton of different Shaker styles and modified Shaker designs. If someone wants a frameless kitchen, you can't beat Holiday Kitchens for their price and quality. Distressed or glazed finishes? Some companies do glazes that are very subtle, some look like they used a Sharpie marker! It depends on which way the client likes it :-) Distressing is an art and some do it better than others. Showplace's VINTAGE finish looks naturally aged. I've seen some distressed finishes that look deliberate. A good KD, like Jakuvall said, is MUCH more important. They will be able to steer you in the right direction and educate you about cabinets and design. Someone with over 5-10 years experience preferred, but obviously the longer someone has been in the industry, the more they will know. Also getting a good vibe from that designer/salesperson is a must. Integrity and creativity are important....they must be honest with your dollars...and also be open to your ideas...it's your kitchen.

Kompy

Ps. I recently ordered a vanity for my own home. I can get Shiloh, KraftMaid or Medallion for less, but chose Showplace for their beautiful distressed VINTAGE finish and their FURNITURE style vanity designs (with feet!). Posting a photo below of their Cherry - Autumn - Vintage door sample.

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 10:17AM
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kompy

Oops pic didn't post. I love Showplace's Vintage finishes. For a semi-custom cabinet company....they do an AMAZING job!
Kompy

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 11:13AM
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chestnut3

Thanks to you all for this helpful thread. Lorenza- can I ask where you are located?
Thanks

    Bookmark   December 1, 2012 at 11:16AM
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Lorenza5064

Chestnut3, I Iive in Indianapolis. This thread is providing an amazing amount of knowledge and expertise. I am trying to keep up with the conversation and absorb the details of construction, finishes, brand hierarchy, etc etc. I am a bit overwhelmed by all of the options and nuances to consider before making my final selection for cabs. I have seen a kitchen mfr'd by the Amish company that has provided the most competitive pricing for my project. Having learned a bit more about cab construction via this post, I inquired about their joinery and finishing techniques. This company uses pocket hole construction and his painted finish includes a catalyzed paint finish and catalyzed to coat. His warranty is 5 years on the finish, lifetime on the hardware. The fit and finish of the kitchen I saw was very good. When I examined an open drawer and cabinet I noticed that the drawer front and can door had chamfered edges where the fronts met the frame. It seems that there is much attention to the details on his cabinets.

    Bookmark   December 2, 2012 at 1:55PM
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ChicagoLiving

Does anyone have experience with Amish Cabinet makers in Arthur Illinois? Thank you so much in advance for any reviews of information.

    Bookmark   January 14, 2013 at 2:51PM
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armada

I'll add another cabinet maker name to the list. We're about to undertake an addition and my builder included cabinets by a company called Integrity Cabinets, LLC in their proposal. I did a search for reviews on GW and Google to no avail; here's a link to their website describing the construction process: http://integritycabinets.com/construction.html Does anyone on GW have any experience with them?

This post was edited by armada on Tue, Jan 15, 13 at 13:02

    Bookmark   January 15, 2013 at 1:01PM
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armada

anybody reading this thread still?

    Bookmark   January 25, 2013 at 2:14PM
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msl511

Me. It was incredibly informative.

    Bookmark   January 25, 2013 at 4:32PM
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illinigirl

Yep. Me too.

    Bookmark   May 27, 2013 at 8:26PM
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jhay

thanks to you all, its overwhelming to renovate a 35 year old home. so much i need to know - once.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2013 at 8:53AM
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deedles

I'm re-reading this one and the 'everything you need to know about drawers'. Getting close to ordering and am trying to make sure that nothing is forgotten! These threads are SO helpful.

    Bookmark   October 12, 2013 at 12:39PM
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rogerc

In our experience, there's a great deal of disparity and you can spend quite a bit more if you don't shop around first.

We priced a complete kitchen in cabinets made by Decora.... a nice line Home Depot sells. The HD price was $43,200 for the complete kitchen.

Then we found a remodeler in Scottsdale Arizona called Republic West Remodeling that also carries the Decora line. We took the exact same design to them for a second quote. They didn't even have to create a new design... just used the same design we quoted at Home Depot. The same Decora cabinets from them were quoted at $88,400!

We ended up going with a small, local custom cabinet maker and paid $35,000 for cabinets that we're able to personalize. It's very nice to not be restricted by the cabinet specifications of the big manufacturers ("...can't do this, can't do that"), the quality is excellent, and it feels good to give the business to a local small business.

    Bookmark   October 12, 2013 at 6:18PM
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ontariomom

Thanks all for your very helpful posts!

Carol

    Bookmark   October 13, 2013 at 7:44PM
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Alexander Timofeyev

This thread has been very informative, thank you.

There are so many cabinet brands, it quickly becomes overwhelming. The KD we're leaning towards recommended Mouser for white Shaker painted frameless cabinets. They have less Shaker styles than others, but still have a "thin", a "thick", and one in between. They seem to be well constructed and well regarded, but how does their painted white finish compare to other brands?

I feel like you need to be a KD yourself, or spend all your time touring houses, in order to be able to adequately compare different brands. Picking cabinets seems to require a fair amount of trust and faith in your KD, and finding a KD that will match a brand to you rather than just going with the same brand they always use.

    Bookmark   October 31, 2014 at 2:01PM
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jakuvall

Yup, will get better results shopping for a KD than for a cabinet. The KCMA has over 300 member, some with multiple brands.

    Bookmark   October 31, 2014 at 7:22PM
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enzaenza

What a wealth of info! I've been google imaging all the frame construction terms to understand the different types discussed.

Since it seems that a KD is really the first step in planning a new kitchen, I'm wondering how do I find a great one? Haven't been able to get recommendations from family/friends, so I feel like I'm going into this process blind. (I am in Brooklyn, NY.)

Also. .... one GC we spoke with said he exclusively uses Armstrong, but I haven't found any old GW threads discussing that maker. Any idea where that one falls compared to some of the ones mentioned above.?

    Bookmark   January 30, 2015 at 2:13PM
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Alexander Timofeyev

Best advice I have to finding a good KD is to go and talk with them, meet with them, ask your questions, and ask them to do a layout for you.

We met our KD while looking at countertops. We thought we already had a KD and layout picked out, and I was just trying to see which countertop color went best with our floor. The KD showing me the countertops said that none of the countertops I was looking at went with our floor, and that we'd have to use completely different countertop colors to not have them clash. I appreciated her frank honesty, and it convinced us that we had to replace the floor in the kitchen to get the look we wanted.

I asked her to do a layout for us, and while it took her longer than most to get it done, as soon as we saw it we knew we had found our KD. Her layout was completely different than the layout of every other KD we had previously met with - it was based around creating a kitchen we'd be happy to use and live with, not just around including our wishlist in the kitchen.

She pointed out that our kitchen was too small for an island, despite having one currently, and that a peninsula, while not nearly as sexy, would allow us to have counter space and seating and avoid creating bottlenecks or having to constantly circle around the island. She also pointed out an issue with the fridge we were planning to use. None of the other KDs had brought up these issues, they had designed a kitchen with everything on our checklist but ignored the actual ease of use of the kitchen.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2015 at 2:49PM
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jakuvall

How to find a KD. Go to a few, they will all be happy to talk.

You are conducting a job interview. Best reserve judgment until you finish with all the candidates. ( "every customer is looking for an excuse NOT to buy" don't let that stand in your way.) Above all else try to have fun, it's an adventure. You may get a few laughs along the way.

Things to look for/ask then evaluate based on your needs:

-how they do things- get a complete explanation of the process-scheduling, revisions, meetings, measuring, changes, payment schedule, what aspects will they help you with, what is required for you to purchase, how do they deal with correspondence and phone calls, how is install handled.

-ask to see final documents and drawings-repeat- look at final documents

-will they work to try and fit into your budget (hence you need to have an idea of what that might be-how much are you comfortable with)

-a portfolio is nice but unreliable ( a lot of people make their purchase decision because a place has a display they like, or a KD has a photo they like- both not the best idea) A dood KD should be able to design across a spectrum of tastes, though not necessarily all. Ask if you are looking for a style that you don't see.

-similarly where or if they went to school is nice but not the only (nor most common) way to get into this. I've found certification overrated but some don't feel that way. I would say if you are after "excellent" 5 years experience is a common cutoff. Again I know of exceptions, folks who were great in less time (usually coming from another field that had some relation) and those with decades who are terrible..

-referances, within the last year

-they should have a few brands -it is unlikely that a good KD works at a place that only has junk

-fit- how does it feel to you

It is a good idea to call ahead for an appointment. Good KD's are busy. It will also give you a small sense of what you are walking into. I generally feel that a place that gives a cold call an appointment is a slightly better bet than one that says just stop in.
There should be no pressure.

The answers will be quite varied. One way of doing things is not necessarily better than another. What works for you is what counts.

    Bookmark   January 30, 2015 at 2:52PM
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wannaknow1

Is there a way to save this in a basic primer area on the website so it does not fade away over time? I am not even sure where that area is, but it would be great if it could be always available as a reference.

I also have a question for Jackuvall: How can we tell if the joint is pocket hole or dowel or loose tenon? Aren't those areas hidden once the joints are finished and the cabinet put together? Also, you said near the beginning of this thread that it is not enough to be loose tenon construction, but must be properly fit at which time they would be better than dowels. How would we know if they are properly or improperly fit?

I can see having to rely on the manufacturer's website to be told that they use pocket hole or loose tenon or dowel joints, but the website is not going to mention how well they are fit! What should we do or be looking for?

Thanks again for this great and informative post!

    Bookmark   February 1, 2015 at 12:42AM
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jakuvall

What kindof joint is used- ask.

You can see pocket holes.
Others should be documented (some mfg tout mortise and tenon but are actually referring to doors)

Bad joints- look at where the face frame rail meets the stile. Should be a consistent line, barely visible. Inconsistent width, or wider than normal indicate a poor joint.

Included a finger joint from a miter door- I didn't get into miter doors.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2015 at 11:46AM
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PRO
Rachiele, LLC

Hello Jakuvall. Finally... someone with good cabinet and design information! I am a professional kitchen designer and also feel that having a diploma is not an indication of design ability. I have seen some horrific designs by accredited designers. The time and effort you spent on this thread is commendable. Your comments are spot on!

    Bookmark   February 2, 2015 at 12:18PM
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wannaknow1

Thanks Jackuvall. The pictures of what a pocket-hole looks like are really helpful. I had tried to do a brief search before I posted above, but couldn't find anything showing what it looked like on a finished cabinet.

I just spent a few minutes looking at our 31 year old upper cabinets, and as near as I can determine, I think they are dado joints. I am not sure where that would fall in your list of strength and durability, but I would be interested to learn, as we are beginning our journey to re-do the kitchen.

Do you know of a way to keep this thread as part of in-depth basics for other GW members?

    Bookmark   February 2, 2015 at 12:49PM
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jakuvall

Dado, and through tenons-being used to make face frames would likely indicate locally and/or site built cabinets. At least I've not seen them in manufactured cabinets. Actually I don't see them for frame construction anymore but I wouldn't doubt someone is using them.
Depending on cross section, profile, and fit- each offers better better glue properties than pocket holes.

Dados and rabbets ARE often used to attach sides to the frame and to fit the back into a cabinet. I prefer a dado.

This all started with the question of what is (or should be) the difference as price increase.
Any type of construction, well executed in a manner that respects the materials used is just fine and will last. That goes for the entire case, not just the face frame. The frame is a good indicator.

I don't know how to make a thread "sticky"

    Bookmark   February 2, 2015 at 3:14PM
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wannaknow1

Thanks Jackuvall and sorry to be a pain in the neck. Your suggestion that my questions would be better on a different thread is correct. One day I will take a photo of what we have now, and begin a new thread and hope for your input there.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2015 at 5:12PM
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jakuvall

Not a problem, I'm just suggesting not to get too caught up in the details. Find the right person for you and work through options with them.

    Bookmark   February 2, 2015 at 5:58PM
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