hollysprings / all - can I ask a Q about crown buildup?

Ellen1234October 23, 2013

Hi hollysprings (and all) -- if I recall correctly, I think you provided detailed input on installing/attaching crown to cabinets and the pieces to do this.

I need to come up with a crown build-up design to fill 12" above my cabinets. Part of this would be a flat piece. They are stained cabinets - full overlay raised panel. If they were white, I think it would be much easier.

I'm' struggling to come up with how to do this with cabinet molding pieces (crown, base, ??). I have seen it done with white crown buildups in rooms (with the various pieces put together to make a nice stacked crown). But I cannot figure out what exact pieces would be needed to make this work for cabinets. My cabinetmaker is not very helpful in giving me ideas - he just wants me to tell him what I want.

Have you done this before, and could you provide exact pieces (meaning item numbers) of how you might make this work? It's the last major hurdle for my kitchen - I've been struggling for months on this!

Of course input from anyone would be much appreciated! :)

Thanks!

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GreenDesigns

12" is pretty tall. As in the cabinets under that should be in the 60" (stacked) height. Otherwise. it's not proportionate.

    Bookmark   October 23, 2013 at 1:46PM
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Sophie Wheeler

Agree that 12" is more like a soffit than crown molding unless you have a super tall room with super tall cabinets. What is your ceiling height? (Check in 4 different spots, so you can know the amount of slope it has.) Wall cabinet height? Parts and their nomenclature is line specific, so you really need your KD to design this for you in the line that you are using. I'd be happy to make a few suggestions if you can provide the information requested though.

    Bookmark   October 23, 2013 at 3:18PM
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Ellen1234

I do realize it's an unusually large area to cover up - I did have soffits before and unfortunately there was plumbing/etc. in a couple areas which couldn't be moved - I had seen some examples of a taller crown (on here and elsewhere) and convinced myself I could figure out something that looked reasonable. I had asked the cabinetmaker about going with taller cabinets (48") but he indicated it would be difficult to make pantry cabinets that tall.

9' ceilings
42" cabinets

I understand it may not be to everyone's taste on here, but at this point I don't have many options.

Note the picture below has a bit more detail than I think I'd want - but I wouldn't even know what kind of pieces make up that detail.

Thanks!

    Bookmark   October 23, 2013 at 4:35PM
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romy718

I had to come up with 8" of crown for my kitchen so I understand how overwhelming this is. I came up with a basic piece of crown I liked and my GC figured out what pieces were needed to make it.
This is a picture from Houzz, House of L Interior Design. This kitchen has 9 foot ceilings. This is 12" of crown: 5" of flat fascia and 7" of projected crown = 12" of crown.

    Bookmark   October 23, 2013 at 5:40PM
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Ellen1234

Thank you! That is what I'm looking to do.... at least that or something similar....

I just need someone who has done this before tell me what kind of pieces make up that crown (for example from the catalog at mouldingsandmillwork.com).

My cabinetmaker is willing to stain molding pieces from anywhere I think (I have cherry and maple cabinets). The catalog that he orders from has very limited options though (if it were online, I'd post it here). If I knew what to use to make it up, I could check his catalog to see if those pieces are available there.

For example, what piece is right above the cabinet box in the picture above? I have no clue.

Thanks for helping!

    Bookmark   October 23, 2013 at 6:56PM
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corgimum

I am attaching an illustration where you start with a piece of baseboard and build from there. In your case you would mount the crown higher to fill the 12" sooner. I would definitely make a mock-up and test it out. Getting the proportions right will be key. You don't want it to be top heavy so that your eye only sees the heaviness at the ceiling. Your inspiration is very top heavy to me.

    Bookmark   October 23, 2013 at 9:51PM
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SaltLife631

What you are asking for can be done and can be done well. Obstacles in design often times present opportunities for pleasing focal points, additional features or space defining details. Installing basic crown molding is not difficult installing more complex built up stained crown molding to exacting standards can be challenging. When installing crown molding on walls that are not square and ceilings that are not level caulk, paint and other fillers can make up for a lot of imperfections. This is not as easily done with stained molding but a skilled tradesman or finish carpenter can tackle the task at hand. I have linked several inspiration photos from houzz below. If you select a few that will work for you I will help you decipher the pieces necessary to create the built up moulding. Getting the proportions correct will be key. You can absolutely accomplish your goal within the parameters you have to work with!

http://www.houzz.com/photos/471673/CLASSIC-traditional-kitchen-new-york

http://www.houzz.com/photos/49827/amyr-traditional-kitchen-other-metro

http://www.houzz.com/photos/75818/Painted-Kitchen-eclectic-kitchen-toronto

http://www.houzz.com/photos/45350/San-Jose-Res-2-traditional-kitchen-san-francisco

http://www.houzz.com/photos/444090/DC-Classic-traditional-kitchen-dc-metro

http://www.houzz.com/photos/867923/Kitchen-Transformation-traditional-kitchen-charlotte

http://www.houzz.com/photos/414780/Traditional-Kitchen-traditional-kitchen-st-louis

http://www.houzz.com/photos/133965/Old-world-elegance-meets-today-s-today-s-contemporary-space-requirements-traditional-kitchen-newark

http://www.houzz.com/photos/474108/Wyndmoor-Residence-Kitchen-traditional-kitchen-philadelphia

    Bookmark   October 23, 2013 at 10:13PM
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Ellen1234

corgimum - thanks for the picture/example! I do agree the pic I posted above is too detailed/top-heavy. I like the one romy posted better.

SaltLife - thank you! I will take a look at those pictures and see what I like. I also appreciate your optimism that it can be done well! I figured it could, I just didn't know how!

    Bookmark   October 24, 2013 at 12:00PM
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Ellen1234

SaltLife - sorry for the delay but I wasn't able to get back on here until now! Some of your examples from houzz were actually ones I had saved off as well :).

The ones I like are:

- romy's picture above

http://www.houzz.com/photos/444090/DC-Classic-traditional-kitchen-dc-metro

http://www.houzz.com/photos/471673/CLASSIC-traditional-kitchen-new-york

Any chance you'd know what exact pieces would make these up?

THANK YOU!!

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 1:01PM
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GreenDesigns

The cabinet maker is the one that needs to take the lead in this. There are literally millions of possible compound pieced combinations from most any regular cabinet line. In other words, there are a lot of "right combinations" to be had. When you are dealing with a custom cabinet maker, the combination number is infinity. He knows best what his abilities and products are. He probably just needs to view your inspiration pictures as well. I'm assuming he's doing the install? If so, this should all be in his lap. If not, then the installer needs to get with the cabinet maker to consult about the project.

What can be helpful to you and your cabinet maker is if he has small cut samples of the available moldings to play with stacking them.

I also have to say that a custom cabinet guy who won't make taller than 42" cabinets isn't very custom. I'd suggest asking him about doing 48" tall cabinets as faux stacked, with a 30" lower panel and an 18" top panel. This gets done all the time for pantry doors, so if he can't do this, I'd probably be looking for another cabinet maker.

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 1:15PM
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Ellen1234

I really just want to know generally how I can put this together - with some specific examples. Trust me, the cabinetmaker is no help.

For example, use crown X and directly under use baseboard Y (do they overlap, or just abut next to each other), then flat piece, then mystery piece Z (again, overlap or abut).

If we assume I can get pieces from mouldingsandmillwork.com -- does that help on what's would be available to use?

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 1:35PM
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crazybusytoo

Ellen is there a Rockler or other building supplier near you? I think if you were to see these pieces in person, it would be easier for you to put this together.

Lowes has lots of moulding, although I'm not sure they have the wood species you need. But you could go see it at Lowes, lay it out on the floor for a better idea of what you need, and then order similar sizes and widths in the wood type you need.

Bring one of your photos when you are looking at mouldings, and you should be able to distinguish which pieces were used.

If it were me, I'd bring some moulding home and play with them. I might even tape them to the wall, As others have said, it's important to get the scale right, and I think that would be easier if you pieced it together with real mouldings. You could always return it.

I hope that helps!

Here is a link that might be useful: Lowes moldings

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 2:03PM
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ILoveRed

My 8 yr old wood mode cabinets go to the top of the 9 ft ceilings. I had to climb a chair to get a close up for you. I hope it helps.

Here's what is there.

-42" cabinets
-Frieze board (flat board). I don't know how tall it is. It is between the cabinet and the 3 piece crown at the very top.
-3 piece crown at the very top (is it considered crown??)
-Trim piece covering seam between 42" cabinet and friese board.

My kitchen designer came up with this when we built the house. She offered me another option if I remember right. Both options included 42" cabinets with everything going to the ceiling.

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 2:07PM
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gpraceman55

@Ellen1234 - You don't need to go too elaborate. Something like red_lover posted looks good and would not be too hard to do. You would need a frieze board, a piece of trim to cover the joint between the frieze board and the cabinet and a piece of crown molding to top it off. Some blocking likely would need to be added to the ceiling and tops of the cabinets to attach the frieze board to. That should not be too hard for a cabinet installer, finish carpenter, or experienced DIYer to do. You can make things more elaborate, if you wish, by doing a built up crown configuration.

This post was edited by gpraceman on Fri, Oct 25, 13 at 14:40

    Bookmark   October 25, 2013 at 2:37PM
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romy718

I really like what red lover did. Since it doesn't project outward at the ceiling level, it is not overwhelming. My 8" of crown projects & looks too big above a single, narrow cabinet that is next to a window.
While I like the crown in the pic I posted, that kitchen is huge. i agree that you should go simpler.
Red lover, very nice of you to climb up on a ladder & take that picture.

This post was edited by romy718 on Sat, Oct 26, 13 at 1:22

    Bookmark   October 26, 2013 at 1:10AM
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buehl

Does this help?

If not, just ignore it! :-)

    Bookmark   October 26, 2013 at 2:20AM
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Ellen1234

crazybusytoo - thanks! We do have HD and Lowes and Menards. My problem is knowing what pieces can be used and how they go together (do they have to overlap, or can they just go next to each other?). I know a crown and flat piece will be used. It's the other pieces that I'm not sure about (I know I can use a baseboard turned upside down under the crown piece, but are there other types of pieces I should consider?).

red_lover - thank you for getting on the chair to take that picture! And for the additional info. I appreciate it! What do you mean by "3 piece crown"? I'll have to google that. Are there literally 3 separate pieces put together (overlapped)? Very cool! I never even considered using small pieces to make up the actual crown. I do like your detail, although I think I want just a touch more detail under the drown - maybe like one more piece under?

gpraceman - thanks! The cabinetmaker does have a plan for how to actually install the crown/etc. using a plywood piece to attach most (all?) of it to. He did put that blocking piece up on the cabinet in one area and plans to do that in all areas. And you mention "built up crown configuration" -- that's what I want to do - just not sure what pieces to use to do it. Would you recommend like a 3.5" crown with a baseboard turned upside down? Or a much taller crown with some other kind of trim piece under?

romy - I also like red_lover's crown not projecting too far out - otherwise it can get overwhelming. If I'm seeing it correctly, that means I'm literally building the crown whereas typically the crown piece is one unit. I'd never considered that before.

buehl - Yes! That does help! What is "SoffitA"? That's one of the pieces I'm trying to figure out. Also, I did want to do a touch more detail under the crown. I'm thinking maybe having 4-5" of the flat piece show, and the rest be some kind of detail --- I don't think having too much of the flat piece show will look good in my space.

THANKS AGAIN!

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 9:49AM
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ILoveRed

Ellen--I wish I still had the extra trim pieces so I could take a picture for you.

It is not really a 3 piece crown so it won't do any good to google it.

I hope I am remembering this right.

My kitchen designer ordered the boards that you see it at top. They were flat, finished pieces( not crown pieces). My installer layered 2 of them for lack of a better word. Then he put that final piece at the very top which actually is a very small crown shaped molding.

Even though it may look elaborate, he said it was quite simple.

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 11:14AM
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Ellen1234

Thank you! That is very helpful!

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 11:22AM
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gpraceman55

@Ellen1234

Many moldings are sold by the linear foot. You might want to get a couple of feet of several different moldings from your local home improvement store and have your carpenter make mockups for you. Hold the mock ups up to the top of the cabinets to see which you prefer.

Personally, I would go simple and not do a built up crown molding (like the drawing buehl posted, or like the photo below). The more elaborate you make it, the more it will cost for materials and labor and the more that it will have a heavy look to it.

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 1:16PM
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Ellen1234

Thanks for the suggestion -- do you really think Bueh's post is that elaborate? It looked fairly simple to me - crown, flat piece, then trim......

How am I going to get this done by Thanksgiving?! :)

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 1:36PM
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gpraceman55

No, I was trying to point it out as a more simple configuration.

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 1:43PM
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GreenDesigns

The simplest cabinet styles, like shaker, look off with elaborate moldings, or super tall moldings. A simple large cove molding or angle molding is often the best choice with simple cabinets.

What's the tallest cove molding that you can find?

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 3:03PM
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Ellen1234

gpraceman - ah, I see, I misread your post - thanks!

GreenDesigns - my cabinets are raised panel, full overlay. I'll look at the cove moldings - I definitely like the idea of the crown not projecting too far.

Thanks!

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 3:32PM
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buehl

"SoffitA" is that piece that's just above the cabinet box.

Here's how it works:

"Soffit A" and "Crown" are the main pieces of the molding and the most "decorative".

"Soffit A" is the molding "base" and sits directly on top of the cabinet.
"Crown" is the upper piece and the most noticeable; it's the piece that goes to the ceiling.
"Filler" is the piece that goes b/w the "Soffit A" and "Crown" pieces and is cut to fit as needed to make yours cabinets + crown molding look like they are all one size/height throughout the kitchen.

Since most kitchens are not square and ceiling heights vary, the "Filler" piece is used to adjust the crown molding to appear all one height and still go to the ceiling everywhere (or where your cabinets go to the ceiling). So, if the ceiling height is 96" in one place but only 95.5" in another, the filler would be 1/2" taller where the ceiling was 96". Because the filler is "plain", it doesn't stand out and the height difference is not noticeable from one part of the kitchen to the next. In my kitchen, I seem to recall there was a half-inch (maybe 3/4") or so difference b/w the shortest and tallest ceiling height....but my cabinets and crown molding all look like they are the same height b/c it's the "Filler" piece that varies, not the cabinets of crown molding. (I know, this is probably more than you need, but just in case it comes up later or someone reading this has this issue, I thought I would give you all the details I know.)

Here's a close up of my crown molding:

Another (dying in to an angled wall):

Another:

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 10:02PM
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romy718

Beuhl & Gpraceman, great explanations & pictures.

    Bookmark   October 28, 2013 at 11:15PM
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live_wire_oak

Here's a project I'm working on at the moment. It's a china cabinet with 42" cabinets and a 9' ceiling. The client played with the molding box and came up with this configuration. I'm trying to talk her out of it. It would be better looking if a shorter molding were used and it just didn't go to the ceiling. It's top heavy.

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 10:57AM
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live_wire_oak

Here's the side view of the molding stack though. 20/20 isn't as representational as it could be for that, so I label it in Paint before I give it to an installer.

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 11:01AM
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SaltLife631

I am glad I saw this post pop back up as originally I did not see your response. Some more than others but most of the pictures you seem to lean towards appear to be fairly detailed moldings. If you look closely at the majority of the inspiration pictures they illustrate inset cabinets. You mentioned that you will be utilizing a full overlay cabinet design; with this in mind the process for applying the crown molding will be different however you can still achieve your desired look. In GreenDesigns second post they mentioned the cabinet maker taking the lead on this. Communication between you and your cabinet maker will be key here because how your crown molding is attached to the cabinets and what pieces are necessary will depend upon the construction methods used for your particular cabinets. I applaud you for educating yourself on how to achieve the look you desire which will in turn help you to relay to the cabinet maker exactly what you are looking for.

I will use my personal cabinets as an example. I too have full overlay cabinet doors. However there were certain techniques used in order to give a more "inset" look. Here is a post that contains a few pictures of my cabinets unfortunately I do not have more detailed photos of the molding at this time:

http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/kitchbath/msg081425281125.html

In order to accomplish this look and achieve a clean install we attached a nailing block to the top of the cabinet. A nailing block is a support piece that is placed on top of the cabinet box in order to give the crown molding something to attach to. It is common to have the front edge of the nailing block line up with the face of the cabinet frame. Our cabinet doors are 3/4" thick so we bumped the nailing block out 3/4 of an inch in order to line up with the front of the door. As a result when we attached the crown molding to the nailing block the doors appear inset. If this is the look you would like to achieve your process will be slightly different because of the larger gap you have to cover from the top of the cabinets to the ceiling.

We will work under the assumption that your cabinet doors are 3/4" thick. The cabinet maker will need to attach a nailing block flush with the face of your cabinet frame. Instead of attaching the crown molding directly to the nailing block a frieze board or fascia board that is the same finished thickness as your cabinet doors will need to be attached. I would make the exposed portion of the frieze board a minimum of 3” and a max of 6”. How much of the frieze board is exposed will have a direct relationship with the rest of the pieces necessary to complete the install. For instance if you only want to see approx. 3” of the frieze board you would then need to attach an upside down piece of base molding to the frieze board 3” up from the bottom of the frieze board before finally securing the crown molding to the ceiling and the base board molding. The size of crown molding you choose to use would dictate the size of base molding used in this application. If you want to see more of the frieze board and utilize a larger crown this will allow you to leave out the base molding and the crown molding would be attached directly to the frieze board and the ceiling. In this application I would have approximately 5” of the frieze board showing. If you feel like you need to break up the frieze board height you can add a piece of astragal molding which is a small bead or convex molding that comes in countless profiles. The following is a basic guide for crown molding sizing with regards to room height. Remember there are no rules, just guidelines. For example I myself have had success placing larger moldings in rooms with 8ft ceilings.

• 8ft ceiling 3”-5” drop height
• 9ft ceilings 5”-10” drop height
• 10-12ft ceilings 10”-20” drop height
• 16ft ceilings 18”-25” drop height

The distance the crown molding protrudes out into the room is a result of the moldings spring angle. There are three common spring angles for crown molding 38 degrees, 45 degrees and 52 degrees. The larger the spring angle the more the crown molding will protrude away from the wall or cabinets and into the room. The most widely used crown moldings have a spring angle of 38 degrees.

There are countless ways to accomplish this task. Many different types of molding (friezes, coves, chair rails, bases, astragals, spring crowns) can be used to achieve an eye pleasing proportionate result. The molding types used should coordinate with and compliment the profiles on your cabinet doors if there are any as well as the other moldings in the kitchen and ideally throughout the house. Keep in mind that coordinate and compliment do not always mean an exact match.

Please do not hesitate to ask for clarification on anything you may be unclear of or any additional questions you may have, I am more than happy to help out any way I can. When you are communicating with your cabinet maker be sure to show him inspiration photos that are eye pleasing to you and be very clear about specifically what is appealing to you and exactly what you are looking for. Remember what you are looking to do can be accomplished!

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 4:14PM
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Ellen1234

Thanks, buehl!! Great info! I do like your crown a lot -- and what I'm wondering is if you have the item number for that "Soffit A" piece -- just so I can see one real life example of what that is.

live_wire_oak - thanks! Can you bring that molding box to me to try it out?? :)

Can I ask both of you -- so that flat piece is literally resting directly on top of the "soffit" piece? It's not behind it in any way?

Thanks for putting up with all these questions and for explaining it all in excruciating detail! I definitely appreciate it!

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 5:35PM
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buehl

The majority of the pictures are NOT inset - 2 out of 4 are. Mine, for example, are full overlay as are the ones the OP posted.

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 5:35PM
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buehl

All I can give you is the SKU and description from my invoice. My cabinets (and crown molding) are Omega Dynasty - which is the same as Omega Embassy - the name will depend on the dealer. I suspect the SKU will also vary by dealer.

Soffit:
SKU 605-046, SOFFITA8 - SOFFITA8 SOFFIT A MOLDING SET

The "SOFFITA8" may be an "item #" as I noticed other line items had a # in the same column.

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 5:43PM
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SaltLife631

Buehl I was specifically referencing the inspiration photos I posted for Ellen1234 that we were discussing, which as I said the majority are inset.

This post was edited by SaltLife631 on Tue, Oct 29, 13 at 20:16

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 6:17PM
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Ellen1234

SaltLife - thank you for the detailed info! I will read it now (I missed it earlier for some reason!).

buehl - thanks! I will see if I can find that item!

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 7:10PM
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crazybusytoo

SaltLife, I don't understand what you mean by "more inset look"?

I have been trying to see the difference between your molding and the others.

Are your moldings more recessed/flush with the cabinets? Thanks for increasing my knowledge!

Your kitchens are stunning, by the way, so nicely done!

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 7:31PM
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Ellen1234

buehl - I found a drawing of the SOFFITA8 piece in an online Omega catalog. That helps since what I'm seeing is that the frieze piece fits sort of in a recessed part of the Soffit piece, behind its detail.

SaltLife - any chance you want to be my stand-in cabinetmaker/designer since I just want someone to tell me what would look good :). I read through your info once (gorgeous kitchen!!) and will print and re-read it! Do you happen to have the exact pieces you used??

Thanks!

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 7:34PM
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buehl

OK - it looks like you were referring to the links, not what we were all showing or the picture Ellen posted directly...that's what I get for reading very quickly while I try to multi-task!

    Bookmark   October 29, 2013 at 8:55PM
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magsnj

Yet another cry for help that Hollysprings answered...

    Bookmark   February 8, 2015 at 9:37PM
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