Please review Ver 2, cheaper k. expansion-: add breakfast room

scrappy25September 17, 2012

Greetings, this post details Version 2 of a possible kitchen expansion.

I posted the first version two weeks ago, which included an 18' wide, 6.5 foot deep expansion off the back of the house. There were many helpful comments but buehl nailed a great layout for that configuration.

See linked thread if interested.

I will be presenting these 2 versions to contractors for pricing to see which type of expansion gives us the most bang for the buck.

Repeat information about us:

1. We are a family of five with three boys ages 21,18, and 15. The older 2 are in college. I would like to have a large kitchen for extended family and friends gatherings well into the future. There should be room for 2 cooks.

We do have a kitchenette in the basement with an additional full refrigerator for overflow.

2. My husband is insistent on a separate eating area hence the breakfast room addition. Dining room is needed separately and will stay as a dining room. I might like a few seats on the island for "visiting" with the cook.

3. We have a great backyard and would like to showcase that through the windows. In this design, it would be the breakfast room addition and in front of the cleanup sink. I would like the windows to go down as low as practical.

4. We do a lot of stovetop cooking and some stir fry as we are Asian origin. Planned appliances: 36" induction cooktop, 36" vent hood, 30" wall oven, 30" 240v advantium, 42" subzero SxS fridge (paneled), bosch dishwasher (paneled).

Version 2 expansion does not take down any walls; the existing 80" wide window in the breakfast nook across from the door to the front hallway becomes a large walkway/opening to a new breakfast room, perhaps 10x 10 feet? Existing breakfast nook space gives way to the main aisle to the planned breakfast room addition, the counter stool eating area, and the coffee/breakfast center.


I was really hoping to include an island but the aisles would only be 36" and 40", so I eventually gave up on that and went with a slightly expanded U shaped kitchen, with counter stools outside the "U". My brainstorm was to place a breakfast center between the walkway to the new eating area and the family room, complete with under counter fridge/freezer, perhaps a small upper microwave, and perhaps even a single dishwasher drawer, creating a coffee/breakfast/snack center. The prep sink in the peninsula is close enough to service that coffee/breakfast center.

There would be two prep centers- between the stove and the cleanup sink , and along the peninsula. The trash is convenient to both of those.

I have tried to include the aisle widths. Please let me know if you need to know any other measurements. Again, I welcome critiques and suggestions. thank you in advance!

Here is a link that might be useful: Version 1 Kitchen addition and layout proposal, please review/critique

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You will have to take quite a few steps to put down hot dishes that come out of the oven with this plan.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 7:29AM
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I agree with athomeinva. Your back would be to the walkway and you have to turn around and cross a walkway with hot dishes. It would make me nervous if it were in my kitchen.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 7:46AM
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The ovens are currently in this location. Previously the peninsula was our only landing spot (only 6 inches closer than in this posted plan) and we have been fine with that for the last 18 years. We now have the new landing spot beside or on the cooktop which is closer than before (the fridge used to be in that location). I am also considering putting a pullout shelf horizontally between the two ovens as a landing spot but not sure that is needed.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 8:32AM
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My apologies, when looking at this today I realized that I copied the wrong room outer dimensions onto this plan- the internal dimensions and aisle widths are correct.

Left wall against dining room is 14'2". width of the kitchen side to side is 18'2", and the depth between the wall of 3 doors and the outer wall is 10'4". That's why we didn't quite have enough room for an L shaped kitchen with an island.

When I get home late tonight I will post a corrected diagram.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 8:43AM
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I'd try to mock up a contemporary galley kitchen-run it left to right.Back window wall can house fridge and range with about 5 feet of counter in between. 2nd run is a long left to right set up in the foreground which contains large sink,[allow 39 in of walk space coming around from dining room.] Take coffee station items and put them down where fridge in alcove was. The long counter run with sink can be 14 feet or more it appears-place some overhang on family room end with stools around. When the space itself is complicated,sometimes paring down to a straightforward,more simple design yields some rewards. The long counter run will give you function and some visual focus when you get to materials/lighting, because of it's position. I wouldn't be too eager to finalize on the plan you show. Perhaps yours is a kitchen where you need to mock up with cardboard boxes laid out in your garage-try different ways. People have prevented errors from becoming reality by doing this.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 8:55AM
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thanks herbflavor, I've tried that peninsula/island layout running it left to right and it leaves me only with a 36 inch aisle between the window wall and the 24 inch deep island or peninsula, and 40 inch aisle walkway in front of the wall with the 3 doors(measurements are cabinet to cabinet, not counter to counter). 24 wall cabinet+ 36 aisle + 24 cabinet + 40 aisle = 10'4" which is the depth of the existing kitchen. I just don't think those aisle widths are particularly comfortable, especially for 2 cooks.

Your suggestion would work great if my kitchen really had the external measurements that I posted in the first diagram! Sorry for that misleading information. I can't post the corrected diagram until tonight.

I should also mention that this new plan is very similar to my current kitchen setup- only adding a trash cabinet, and swapping appliances around- the fridge is where the cooktop is diagrammed, the cooktop is currently in the peninsula with a downdraft vent which I really dislike. Current peninsula overhang exists but is not used because the eating area is to small for a table and counter stools. So the "mockup" is already there. The real additions are the prep sink in the wider peninsula with the 24 and 12 inch cabinets back to back, and the breakfast bar.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 9:54AM
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I saw 18 plus feet internal...subtract 3plus feet for alcove items...equals 15 ft approx of depth[sink wall to basement door] ????

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 10:22AM
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Can you combine your breakfast room and screen/sun porch? Maybe have a seating area at one end of the breakfast room...with lots of windows that open?'s another idea for opening the kitchen up to the new addition. Sorry it's not prettier, but hopefully you get the idea :) From Cottage house plans

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 10:49AM
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herbflavor, the post just above yours is my correction to the measurements, we were probably typing at the same time. Truly the depth including the fridge alcove is 14'2" and the depth to the wall of 3 doors is 10'4". I wish it was deeper!

lavender lass, I like the open-ness of your plan, I had not thought of a galley layout. I'm worried about the reduction in prep space though. Those corner areas are my main prep spaces now and your plan would reduce the counterspace for prepping. Asian food requirea a lot of washing and chopping!
I did think about moving the tall oven cabinet over where you suggested, but decided against it because it would partially block the view to the backyard (a key item I want to preserve). This is really a "form over function" thing where I thought that the slight gain in fuction did not warrant the larger loss in form. thank you for thinking of it though!

Thanks for your thoughts about the screened room- good memory!
I had drawn out a plan joining the screened porch with the breakfast room in this plan but both current and former architects independently advised against a porch roof outside the kitchen windows since it would significantly change the great natural light and view that we have, so we will just have a deck in this plan between the breakfast room addition and the screened porch addition.

I hope I'm not sounding intransigent for your suggestions. I've had far too long to think about many different layouts and have tried most of them. However I know that I can't have thought of everything and welcome new thoughts. Additionally, it's definitely better to have new eyes on a plan to point out its flaws. So thank you again!

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 11:43AM
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I don't like standing in corners facing away from people and the rest of kitchen behind me when prepping. I'd think about Lav Lass's last shot at it and perhaps push sink and stove up so the ends of these runs are bigger on fridge end. in your last version-if the main sink were in one of the corners[since you have 2 sinks], then you'd gain a bigger swathe of counter so you can move back and forth more for your cooking style.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 12:36PM
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thanks herbflavor- Prep Center 2 in the corner is currently my only real prep area since the existing cooktop resides on the peninsula. There is a nice window over the sink (hidden by the words "Cleanup Center"), so Prep Area 2 is actually not a bad location to prep since I've been able to watch the kids play in the backyard when they were young, and now get to watch the small wildlife through that window. Current plan would add Prep Area 1 (anticipated to become the primary prep area) to the peninsula which would face the eating counter, the family room, and the breakfast room, similar to lavender lass'plan. Her plan combined with your thought of moving down the cooktop and sink to the back wall does make the kitchen more open but the sink would move farther from the eating area and breakfast center, and I would lose that 60" run of cabinets against the wall currently occupied by sink-dishwasher-trash drawer in the plan. In this case, I think that function (more cabinets, bigger prep areas) wins over form (more open kitchen, more space to move around) for me. Someone else might choose otherwise, so it definitely a good alternative.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2012 at 1:03PM
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Here is the corrected diagram with measurements.

Here is the 3-D visual

    Bookmark   September 19, 2012 at 1:22AM
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Remember to put a filler to the left of your DW, otherwise you cannot open the DW. The DW door has to clear the knob/pull of the cabinet to the left. 2" should do it, depending on knob/pull size.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2012 at 3:06AM
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If you're bumping out for a breakfast area, just bump the kitchen out the same amount. and do the galley kitchen, but with longer arms to it.

If you're already doing a bumpout, it really will not be that much more expensive, and it might even be cheaper as it simplifies the foundation and eliminates the jog. Also, the kitchen would have a lot more connection with the breakfast area, which it now does not. I thought that was one of the requirements for your husband too. To have an "eat in" kitchen. With a bump out for the breakfast area away from the kitchen, you might as well be using the dining room, as it's actually closer and more connected.

Explore opening up the dining room to create that connected eating area that you want for everyday eating. Then think about the screen porch addition as the more "formal" area, with the connection to the exterior. Or, if you did the screen as a french doored addition to the dining area, the french doors could open to link the two spots for more formal dining and when you had parties. A table with lots of extensions could extend through the dining area into the sunroom and hold a LOT of people. It would be pretty nice for entertaining, and be a LOT cheaper to look at going that route.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2012 at 9:09AM
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Ok, kiddo, here's spacing and all.

You need to leave 5 feet between the edge of the counter and the edge of the breakfast bar. Seated people take up 2 feet beyond the counter edge (temporarily using 32" to get into or out of the stools) and you need to leave at least 3 feet behind them for passage and for people to be able to use the breakfast bar. are you aware the overhang for the counter as shown on the drawing doesn't match the size stated for it?

If I remember correctly, you're using the ikea planner but have no plans to use ikea for the actual cabinets? That sink is smallish for cleanup (ask me how I know), a better choice would be to plan on using a 27" to 30" sink.

You can't put a stages sink in a 24" sink base. The part of the sink that is less deep - in cabinet terms, is still too deep to have a top drawer in the adjacent cabinet. And you'd need to make significant cuts in the cabinet sides of both the sink base and the cabinet beside it. Even the small stages has an array of rack, board, bowls, etc that live on a rack under the less deep end. I'm not sure it would be possible to use the storage rack with two cabinet sides in its way. Plus - no rolling cart - or at least none over about 26" tall.

The dishwasher positioning means two things - you'll need to be careful to choose an integrated one to avoid having huge fillers in the corner because:
-- Dishwasher doors frequently sit in front of the cabinet line - even integrated ones. The filler on the drawer side would start out being 2-3" deep. Generally, with framed cabinets, the minimum corner filler is 1.5" on both sides, but dishwashers don't have cabinet sides or frames but you'll need to allow 3/4" for the corner overlap, another 3/4" to get beyond the cabinet door, plus extra to get beyond the dishwasher door.
-- Drawers perpendicular to a dishwasher need to avoid its handles. I have a bar handle on mine and it sticks out 2.5" beyond the outer surface of the dishwasher. I would need to add at least 2" to the filler on the drawer side - making it more like 5".
-- It is impossible to get into the cabinets to the left of the dishwasher while the dw doors are open.

This is a sorta galley without extending the room at all. If I could do something more, it would be to replace the former kitchen window with a door + transom. I'd put a small deck out there to connect better with the screen porch. I garden, so it would have steps so me and my garden produce and dirt end up directly in the kitchen.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2012 at 11:03AM
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Bmore- That is such a nice layout...and a door is a great idea. Since I garden, I would like that, too.

Scrappy- You've said you need a lot of prep space for your cooking, so if you need that extra counterspace...what about moving the sink to the peninsula and having the space under the window, for your prep?

Using Bmore's drawing...maybe something like this? From Cottage house plans

    Bookmark   September 19, 2012 at 1:25PM
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Wow thanks everyone!

LWO- the breakfast room in this plan will be on piers (surrounded by a deck)or a foundation, it will be adding a separate room onto the back of the house using the existing window header as the support for the new doorway. I wanted to use this as an alternative to the 6.5 foot bumpout addition of the whole kitchen (18.2" wise) that I had posted two weeks ago. I may be wrong, but I think the costs will be mush less as no significant demolition of walls, much less plumbing and electrical work. The breakfast room addition would just have basic heating and electrical, no plumbing.

You are right that in this plan the breakfast room is more disconnected from the kitchen than in the whole kitchen bumpout, but it is still right by the family room and with the great lighting and view to the backyard.

Bmorepanic and lavenderlass, I think you guys have nailed it between you two, thank you. I'm going to spend some time thinking about your layout as I work in my kitchen now.

I do have one question though- why is 60 inches needed for the passageway through to the breakfast room? I thought that 44" was what was needed for walk through area behind counter stools. I have read a bunch of threads about distances between islands and kitchen tables and the recommended distance there is 60" but we don't have chairs on the other side of the aisle. Buehl stated that she has 54" and it is fine for a person seated on one side as long as noone is seated at the other side. I had thought that I would use the backless saddle stools which would nicely tuck under counter when not being used and also take up less space when being used.

thank you again!

    Bookmark   September 19, 2012 at 9:21PM
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