New kitchen addition and layout proposal, please review/critique

scrappy25September 6, 2012

3 years hiatus and here I am again! We are adding to the kitchen in the back of the house. The first plan from 3 years ago was overly costly so this is a scaled back plan with a new architect. I am going to post another even more modest addition in a few days in order to have 2 alternative plans to present to the contractors for bidding. I am using the old Ikea software due to lack of skill of using any other software.

The addition starts at the wall with the sliders from the family room and dining room. The main bumpout is 6'6" and the banquette bumpout adds another 2'3" for a total of 8'9".

The bumpout remains 18 feet in width (incorporating the old kitchen and eating area). One problem with the ceiling is that we may have to retain part of a 2 foot wide soffit which currently runs horizontally- it houses

pipes and a support beam.

Information on our family and our preferences;

1. We are a family of five with three boys ages 21,18, and 15. The older 2 are in college. I would like to have a large kitchen for extended family and friends gatherings well into the future. There should be room for 2 cooks.

We do have a kitchenette in the basement with an additional full refrigerator for overflow.

2. My husband is insistent on a separate eating area. I might like a few seats on the island for "visiting" with the cook.

3. We have a great backyard and would like to showcase that through the windows. In this design, it would be through the windows around the banquette and in front of the cleanup sink. I would like the windows to go down as low as practical.

4. We do a lot of stovetop cooking and some stir fry as we are Asian origin. Planned appliances: 36" induction cooktop, 36" vent hood, 30" wall oven, 30" 240v advantium, 42" subzero SxS fridge (paneled), bosch dishwasher (paneled). Also have a steam oven that I bought off ebay but not sure how that will fit in. May or may not have a small microwave, depending on how good the Advantium is at microwaving.

5. The screened porch does not currently exist but will be built with the kitchen addition.

8. Existing small closet pantry is not sufficient so I added a 24 inch pantry and a 15 inch broom closet in the new layout, along the fridge wall.

Now to the layout (there are many details on the plan):

1. What is your overall feel for the workflow? Are the appliance and sink locations workable? The prep sink in the island is a dilemma to me. I ended up putting it where it is so that the island still has a landing space for the refrigerator. Also, the sink will be closer to

the breakfast/snack area.

2. Do you think that adding a gaggenau steam oven to the cleanup sink run beside the door to the new screened porch will make that area feel too tight? As you can see in the layout I am planning 30 inch deep counters and the steam oven would be 24" deep. A small microwave would only be 15" deep. Remember there is a tall oven cabinet directly across the aisle from the proposed steam oven , with the door in between (door will be outswing to the porch).

3. There is a big empty space between the island and the family room- would this be a good place for a countertop extension with stools? Or should I bump the banquette out further and extend the 48" wide island ("width" is vertical on the plan). towards the family room another 50-60 inches? (currently 60 inches horizontally on plan).

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Alex House

You thought it important to make note of the fact that you do a lot of stove-top cooking, so with that in mind, I'll ask whether you have given any thought to including an induction wok hob in your layout. You seem to have plenty of ovens for a family that favors stove-top, so with an eye towards specialization, you might want to think about whether you would be happy cooking with a flat-bottomed wok on your 36" induction cook-top.

    Bookmark   September 6, 2012 at 10:44PM
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Alexhouse-thanks for the suggestion, we currently cook on a flat bottomed wok on electric coil so regular induction will be a step up. I'm not keen on the extra venting that an additional wok setup would need. You are right about the ovens but I have always had double ovens, needed when family visits, so the only possible addition would be a steam oven which is great for chinese cooking also (currently use a stovetop steamer).

    Bookmark   September 6, 2012 at 10:55PM
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Of course I don't know if there are other "outside"areas of your home for gathering and sitting,but a concern may be the traffic flow to the screened porch. A relative built a new home 10 yr ago and added a screened porch and they were commenting how much more they use it than they planned. Their access is different from yours but it is adjacent to the kitchen. If many people end up liking this spot I would be concerned about the traffic pattern it creates in that location of your kitchen. Also-have you rejected a lenthwise island and run it top to bottom with a large curve on family room side for seating? Or a double island set up with an internal run opposite stove wall which would create a defined zone and then a 2nd island furthur out in the open area with seating around that section? That would really help with your busy kitchen and the inside zone might be helpful for multiple cooks. I'm just not sure the island you have thus far is really going to be the workhorse that you need.

    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 6:29AM
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Herbflavor, thanks for your advice about the screened porch. There will also be double French doors from the dining room to the screened porch right next door so this will not be the only entrance.

A lengthwise island would leave less cabinet space and not address the issue of the empty space between the island and the family room. Very interesting suggestion about a double island. I'll have to draw that out and see what it looks like. Appreciate your comments!

    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 9:45AM
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I don't feel comfortable that I have enough information about the house to make any intelligent (or even sophomoric) suggestions. I sorta kinda remember your house, but not clearly.

Sorry, but there are a lot of pathway issues - enough so that if this was my design, I'd go "Crap!", get a drink and start again.

One of the things I'd surely consider is moving the dining room door up the wall closer to the sliders, and cutting the separate door to the porch. What something like that does is give you some area where you can control the "walk throughs".

This is a concept sketch of that kind of thing -

    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 11:17AM
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Wow, bmore, thanks for the path diagram! That is really impressive and I need to mull on that. I did include the architect prelim drawing so you would have an idea of the adjoining layout.

Your concept drawing is much more efficient but it does not address points 2 and 3 above. Here they are:
2. My husband is insistent on a separate eating area. I might like a few seats on the island for "visiting" with the cook.
3. We have a great backyard and would like to showcase that through the windows. In this design, it would be through the windows around the banquette and in front of the cleanup sink. I would like the windows to go down as low as practical.

Right now, the first thing people do when they enter the house is look through the door to the existing eating area window to the backyard and exclaim over that. So I'd like to keep that wall as "windowy" as possible, especially the view from the front hall. In your layout that could be fixed by moving the tall oven cabinet and fridge to your "pantry" area (and losing the large pantry), but that does not solve the separate table height seating that my husband insists on.

Might the pathways you drew be fixed or improved significantly by moving the cabinet functions and contents around within the original layout footprint? For example, putting a second set of plates and bowls in the prep area. Again, thanks for the paths. Are "Dinner" and "Guest" the same pathway ? (both red).


    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 2:12PM
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I can't help you with 2 and 3.

For me, I just would not devote so much kitchen space and expense to a table when there was also a dining room plus an open family room. The point of the kitchen is to cook and the numerous doors and the giant table-banquette don't help. Is the deal that he gets a table and you get the left overs for a kitchen? Or is the deal that you get a kitchen and try as best you can for some seating? In this plan, MORE of the addition floorspace is the table.

With the windows, at a certain point, you have to choose between a 30 second effect on guests or having a kitchen that is easy to work in.

If I remember correctly, you also have some children? Isn't that the point of having a kitchen - to feed the family? I think that because you have 6 directions of entrance/exit, you have no hope of channeling traffic away from work areas while they're being used.

You can get a little something by clumping uses like breakfast bar stuff towards one or the other of the table spaces. All the stuff that others access should move towards the outside edges BUT NOT right next to a door at 90 degrees (ie the location of the refrigerators).

Dinner is trying to look at service of dinner from your point of view, including setting/clearing table. The Guest title started off being yellow and was changed by photobucket to nearly red. It is thinking about whither they would wander and why.

    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 5:02PM
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Where are you? I ask because I saw an article once about a family similar to yours. They were in a mild climate and installed a 30,000 Btu gas burner outside for wok cooking. Since it was outside, no need for an expensive fume hood.

    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 5:12PM
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Thanks Bmore, for the further feedback> I will give serious thought to closing off the screened porch entrance from the kitchen and improving that corner.In the more modest plan that I will be posting as an alternative, the kitchen remains in its original space and there is no entrance to the screened porch.

I think my husband really wants a full table and eating area because it has always been a tremendous gathering spot for homework , church get-togethers, friends gathering around the table. He doesn't think it would be comfortable to be perched on stools, and you wouldn't get as many people comfortably seated around an island. It was his one request for the kitchen.

The backyard view is more than just a 30 second effect. We all enjoy sitting at the table and looking out. Our house is a 1970's tract colonial, but the backyard is a bit of a gem and people are always amazed when they see it. Both my former architect and the current one immediately exclaimed that the backyard view was to be showcased. Personally I love watching the wildlife in the back yard as I sip my coffee.

Good thought about moving things to the ends but away from he doors.

juliekcmo, we are in Maryland so humid in summer and cold in winter :) Lots of mosquitoes hence the screened porch. Honestly we are ok now with the electric coil cooking we do so anything will be a step up, I don't need a dedicated or high heat wok setup.

Off to try to close up the door to the screened porch, retain the eating area, and the window view from the front hall. thank you!

    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 8:23PM
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If you want a connection with the eating area, then I don't understand why you are not opening up the kitchen to the current dining room and designing any bumpout to work with the DR as THE eating space. If you need a screened porch, it would seem more logical to locate that closer to the current deck area or to screen in the deck rather than cutting off the exterior view from the dining room.

    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 8:43PM
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GreenDesigns, thanks for your thoughts. We do use the dining room regularly as a more formal eating area, but that is almost always dinnertime when it is darker outside. If we were to appropriate the dining room as the informal eating area we would not need a bumpout, but that was not an option.

There are large trees on the property line which currently make that proposed screened porch area particularly unused (and keeps the dining room dark even though the kitchen is sunny)- the kids don't play there, the grass doesn't grow well. So a screened porch would use that area well. Also, we are planning a full basement under that screened porch as a future office and it ties in well with the current basement layout.

    Bookmark   September 7, 2012 at 9:56PM
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My favorite story about Baltimore is that pre-revolutionary British officers viewed being assigned here as punishment because of the climate. They felt it was just too much in the summer and winter.

Just talking, but could the proposed porch be the kitchen and the current kitchen (no addition) be the office?

I second the thinking of making the dining room suitable for both everyday and formal occasions.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 4:52AM
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Great Baltimore story! Our A/C was out a few weeks ago and it was truly miserable.

The proposed screened porch area is very shady and would not allow a sunny bright kitchen. The kitchen is also best where it is because of its proximity to the family room. My planned office under the screened porch in the basement is right next to my husband's office and would also serve as an spare bedroom since there is already a full bath in the basment. We have no full bath on the first floor.

I do have hesitation of giving up the very convenient entry to the screened porch form the kitchen, but I like Bmore's idea of an L shaped layout with an extended island if I can keep the banquette as in the original plan. If I bump the banquette out a bit more so that the table does not protrude past the countertop run of the outside wall, would extending the island as in her plan work? I am heading to work but will try to mock up when I get home.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 8:25AM
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Can you think about reversing stuff? Would that help - keep the screened porch door but kill the deck door?

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 9:51AM
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I'm ok with killing the deck door but we mostly use the deck (again, too hot and humid in summer, too cold in winter) when we have a party and wouldn't be cooking at that time, so the traffic flow issues are not that great for that door. Not sure what you mean by reversing stuff, the banquette is situated where it is because it will be surrounded by hopefully beautiful windows and will be seen from the front hallway. However, having that door would allow us to eventually put window seats and storage along that back family room wall where the sliders currently exist.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 12:10PM
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Please post your home's current layout as is. Include the deck size and tree location as well. It sounds as though any future expansion for a screened porch will be awfully close to the rootlines of the trees, which can damage or even kill those trees. Especially since you are thinking of digging a full basement and will need large heavy machinery on top of their roots to do that.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 12:26PM
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Is the connection with an eating area most important, or is the connection with the family area the most important? Small bumpouts often cost much more per square foot than do large ones, as the most expensive part of it is the connection with the old and making that a smooth transition. The plumbing and electrical will be virtually the same amount as those needs don't change unless you radically change the location of major items from one design to the next.

What I'm trying to say here is that if the price for the much larger bumpout blew you away, then you aren't likely to significantly reduce costs by just reducing the size of the bumpout.

I also echo posting the home's current layout and being open to repurposing existing space. That is your best bet for containing costs on a renovation. You already have eating area. Make it work harder and smarter to be what you want from an eating area! It can be both formal and casual if you have a table with leaves, and it can be connected to the kitchen better with a large opening, and it can be separated and more formal with french doors for that opening.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 1:54PM
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I really appreciate you additional gurus posting, thank you.

Ok, I hear you all, I know I'm sounding a bit stubborn about keeping the dining room out of it. I have been reading this site avidly for the past 3 years, have seen all the posts about incorporating the dining room into the informal eating area, and knew that was not for us. Please if possible work with me on the layout keeping the kitchen where it is, keeping the redundant informal eating area in the kitchen, as well as the views out the back.

LWO- Thanks for raising very important considerations. The screened room and full basement are in the right location for all the reasons I identified above, and I have actually already paid $1000 for a landscaping company to draw up a plan to protect the tree roots with orange tape lines during construction and regrade the property swale once the construction occurs so that the new full basement does not impede the outflow of rainwater from that area. The trees on the property line are not anywhere in danger from the construction, but they are very tall and some are very leafy (but the branch line does not actually come over the planned screened porch) so do cast a fair bit of shade in that area.

GreenDesigns, the prior addition incorporated the back of the family room as well and would have been 30 x 12 feet. This is a much smaller bumpout of 19x 6.5 feet (8.5 for the banquette) and doesn't need a new steel beam to support the 2nd story since there is already an existing 2 foot bumpout in that spot. Who knows, perhaps after going through all this it will come down to leaving the kitchen in the current layout vs doing the original large expansion, if there really is not much difference in the price for this smaller expansion.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 2:46PM
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Correction- Actually it was the landscape architect in the landscaping company who designed the proposed swale and the tree protection plan.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 2:53PM
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Update with taking out the doors to the screened porch and the deck, and extending the island.

I decided to try to incorporate the steam oven since I already have it. The cooking center can still be pushed towards the steam oven wall by a few inches to open up the existing dining room door, but I think forgoing the awkward blind corner cabinets that you get with an "L" shape still works best here even without a door to the screened porch in that location.

I pushed out the banquette extension by 8 inches to have the outer edge of the table line up with the countertops, leaving a 44" aisle space which fits within guidelines for a walk space behind.

I extended the island with mostly counterspace to have room for an under counter rolling cart (to ferry food and dishes out to the screened porch or deck), and also a few seats at the end. I know this is super redundant, but this makes the island not so monolithic when viewed from eye level, and would also allow perching on a stool if tired of standing while prepping.

Having a really tough time with the 42" subzero fridge that already exists. I can't find a better place to put it than in the back corner near the dining room door. It is a side by side so the doors won't protrude so far when opened. The prep will mostly be on the island and the prep won't usually be happening when people are traversing the dining room door, so as long as the fridge is not right by the door. Currently there are 15 inch wide french doors here that swing into the dining room. I can probably enlarge that to 36" or move the door a bit further away from the fridge wall. I think it will work. I don't want to push the fridge up against the wall by the basement door because then I won't be able to open the doors fully to pull the drawers out.

Is this a better plan? Bmore, I'd love to see those path lines of yours again on this plan.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 5:10PM
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On the new plan, I think it's great that you got rid of the door to the screened porch. But IMO it looks odd that you left a blank spot where the door was. I think you need to continue the cabinets around that turn for an L run of cabinets there.

I want to make sure I have this correct ... you are going to have 3 ovens ... a steam oven, an advantium, and a regular oven ? Do you already have all 3 of the ovens, or have you already picked out the models that you want ? What are the dimensions on the ones you already have or have already picked out (height width depth) ?

Is there a reason for the 30" deep counters at the cooktop ?

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 6:20PM
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Angela, I have the 30 inch wall oven, 30 inch matching microwave as well as the new gaggenau 27" steam oven. I was thinking of swapping out the microwave for the advantium. This plan would therefore add the steam oven.

I understand about looking a little funny without the L, but I was actually thinking that the prior door spot would be a nice spot for a pass through window to the screened porch, where food and drinks could be passed, and the the cook could easily converse with the screened porch occupants even though there was no door there. Also, I really like not having the blind corner cabinets.

30 inch deep counters at the cooktop to accomodate rice cooker, thermomix, the large crock with all the mixing spoons and spatulas, the knives (all the prep materials that I like to keep out on the counter). Another option is to keep those prep materials in drawers at the island, but it is really handy to have them out.

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 6:45PM
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So that's width, what about height and depth for the 3 ovens ?

Would you consider keeping the rice cooker and thermomix in an appliance garage where you could keep it hidden when not in use (keep always plugged in if you choose), but with door for easy access ?

How big is the crock with spatulas and stuff ?

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 6:59PM
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A couple more options...

All perimeter counters are 30" deep and all upper cabinets are 15" deep. I show 24" deep base cabinets, but if you can get them, I would opt for 27" to 28.5" deep cabinets - mostly drawers and pullouts, of course! :-)

In addition, I put the ovens on the same wall as the refrigerator, but on the right so they are not in the main path. Note that I put in a 33" cabinet so that meant the pullout on the other side of the refrigerator is only 6" deep (with a 1" filler b/w the wall and cabinet to allow for door trim on the DR doorway). There are tall 6" filler pullouts available that give you some storage. If you can fit your ovens in a 30" cabinet (and some 30" ovens can be fit in a 30" cabinet, but I don't know if yours can), you could increase the tall filler pullout to 9" - a better width.

In Layout #1, the big island (sounds like Hawaii!) has the advantage of allowing you to face the windows while working at the cooktop. You mentioned that you do a lot of cooktop cooking, so I thought that might be appealing to you. While I don't normally recommend an island cooktop, I think this one is relatively "safe" and useful. Your main prep & cooking spaces are directly across from the ovens & refrigerator.

Note that I did put in an oversized island hood...6" wider and 27" deep. Since you do some stir-fry in addition to quite a bit of cooktop cooking, I think a larger hood would be very beneficial. Increase the width a bit more and/or get stronger cfms and you can probably mount it 36" above the island rather than 30"...that should reduce the impact the hood would have on the view while working at the island.

Pantry & small appliance storage...there is 9-3/4 feet of 18" deep storage on the "back" of the island.

The biggest disadvantage I see is that the aisle b/w the island and "bottom" wall will also be the main path through the kitchen to get to the DR and it's across from the basement door. I tried to give it a wide aisle (5 feet) to mitigate these disadvantages, but you need to determine if it would work for you. keeps the door to the screened in porch & with it on the other side of the island, traffic to the porch will bypass the Prep & Cooking Zones to go from the FR to the porch, the Foyer to the porch, and the refrigerator to the porch.

Layout #1, the "big island"...


Layout #2 eliminates the door to the porch, but it does have a 39" pass-through b/w the kitchen and porch. It could be made wider, but then the cabinet to the right of the hood would need to be made narrower as well. It also has a lot of workspace, it has protected Prep & Cooking Zones, and it has easy access to the refrigerator and ovens. Note that all traffic is out of the three primary work zones - Prep, Cooking, Cleanup.

You have two options for prepping...b/w the cleanup sink and cooktop looking out to the porch (visiting with people sitting there) or on the island (visiting with people sitting there and those in the FR)...depending on what's going on at the time - interior or exterior activities!

And, of course, there are two seats at the island in addition to the banquette you have planned.

There's a 36" corner susan that could be used for small appliances, as a pantry, or even pots & pans (although, I think the drawers under the cooktop would be a better place for the post & pans). There's a thread about a new corner option that combines drawers w/side storage and while I think it's an intriguing option, I think in your case it would crowd the corner b/c the front is a diagonal front instead of a 90-degree cut that gives you more counter frontage in front of the pass-through as well as more space b/w the corner and cooktop/prep space in general. (See Layout 2a for the diagonal example to see what I mean.)

Layout #2

Layout 2a (with diagonal corner cabinet)

Here is a link that might be useful: Rev-A-Shelf Tall Filler Pullouts

    Bookmark   September 8, 2012 at 11:45PM
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Wow Rhome, I went to Beagles' open house (WHAT a kitchen and WHAT a house) today in PA and just got home to this wonderful posting of yours. THANK YOU! I am going to print it out and study it very carefully. My schedule is very crowded these next few days and I may not get back right away but I will study it carefully. I really appreciate it!

Angela, the single oven is 27" tall, the micro is 19 inches tall (Including the face plate), and the steam oven is boxed- the box is 20" height. They are all made to go into 24" deep cabinets. I suppose the steam oven could go over the single oven, and I could just have a small micro anywhere (instead of an advantium), but the steam oven has to be plumbed so it would not work in Rhome's layout above.

The canisters are about 7" diameter and 5" diameter- my stirrers, spatulas, tongs, large spoons, my prep and cooking utensils are all crammed into them right now.

The rice cooker creates a fair amount of steam and I would like to keep it out next to the cooktop so that I can place it under the hood when cooking. Similarly the thermomix can produce steam when it is cooking and stirring, depending on what I am making.I don't think they would do as well in a cabinet or appliance garage.

    Bookmark   September 9, 2012 at 8:08PM
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@buehl snicker what's it like being rhome?

    Bookmark   September 9, 2012 at 9:50PM
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I know....I was keeping quiet! (You know the feeling too, right?!)

    Bookmark   September 9, 2012 at 9:59PM
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OK, major faux pas, buehl, so sorry! I think I was reading the "where is rhome" thread just before I saw this and got your names mixed up. Aargh I know you have helped me in the past as well so major egg on the face! Please know that my thanks is not diminished by that.

    Bookmark   September 9, 2012 at 10:07PM
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Those dimensions sound like they might work to triple stack the 3 ovens to get them all into one oven cabinet. You would trim out around the 27" oven to make it match up since the other two are 30". Here are some triple stacked oven examples ...

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 10:51AM
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That's OK Scrappy25, I understand!

Regarding a triple tall are you and your family? If you're all pretty tall, it may be OK...

If you look closely at the examples above, note just how high off the floor the top oven is...that's pretty high! If you're trying to take something out, you run the risk of dumping hot food/liquids on your face. I'm 5'10", but I would not want an oven that high!

YMMV, of's just something to think about!

    Bookmark   September 10, 2012 at 11:19PM
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Add them up. Using the dimensions of the ovens she has already purchased ... 4" toekick + 27" oven + 20" steam oven = 51" to bottom of microwave. Which is lower than if the microwave was in the bottom of an upper cabinet or over the range which would be at 36" + 18"= 54". And sometimes people even install the microwave a couple inches higher than that.

Even leaves room for 1.5" filler between each of the ovens if she wants (I have no filler between mine, from the front it looks like the MW sits right on top of the oven). It actually may be even lower than 51" as the 20" is the height of the box it is in, so the oven is going to be shorter than that.

The other advantage is the steam oven is left hinged and typically, so are most microwaves.

As far as plumbing goes, that should be able to be done anywhere in the kitchen. It would probably even be better next to the fridge as you will need water there anyway for the ice maker.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 12:39AM
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Look closely...the ovens are not directly above the toekick, they are several inches above the toekick.

A MW over the range are also too high...

BTW...if the ovens were directly over the toekick, they would be too low!

    Bookmark   September 11, 2012 at 10:02PM
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I don't know that I agree. Of course those pics are just for examples of the look, but Picture #3 does start directly over the toekick. There are many stoves that have NO toekick and the bottom oven starts barely above ground height, like the Gemini. Ideal ? No. But certainly workable.

I'm only 5'3" and am able to use the MW over my range with no problem. It's the most common height for built in microwaves to be at 54", either above the range or built into the uppers.

    Bookmark   September 12, 2012 at 12:33AM
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Hi, sorry it took me so long to get back about this. I've been out every night to meetings until 9- 9:30 this week (back to school, work group meeting, scouts) and then have to make the meal for the next day when I get home. I have been collapsing into bed, exhausted.

buehl, I really like that Layout 2 with the passthrough and the island. Thank you so much again. It addresses pretty much everything. I am going to go with that for contractor cost comparisons for the large bumpout and one without. One question though- if I extend the aisles a few inches on the sink and fridge side of the island, , could I add to the island as in my Sept 8 post so that it uses some of that space between the banquette and the foyer to the front hall? Otherwise that just seems like wasted space.

Angela, thank you so much for your idea about triple stacking. I have been looking into the plumbing requirements for the gagg steam oven and it needs drainage in addition to the supply so I think that I may have to give up the steam oven if it goes on the opposite wall from the sink anyhow.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 12:53AM
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