Another layout for you to please critique

deedlesAugust 22, 2012

Okay, here is my latest layout taking tips from all the ideas I got last time around.

Decided that we really need to keep the floor wide open instead of the peninsula. It made placing my Grandmother's hutch too difficult. The hutch is a deal breaker for layouts, I have to keep it and really have no other good place for it other than where it's shown in the layout.

Lav: I took your idea of turning the corner but changed it to the DWD instead of the fridge.

and I think Marcolo suggested the fridge down by the door so I moved it over a smidge for an 18" pantry. Made the fridge a CD all-fridge and then put freezer drawers AND a prep sink over by the stove area. I now see the usefulness of a prep sink for real and true. Actually I was picturing being like, REALLY old and trying to carry a big pot of water vs. sliding the thing down the counter from the prep sink.

And back to a rolling butcher block with maybe a drop leaf so I can move it anywhere or sit at it with my computer or coffee or cookbook.

ok. Thoughts?

(my kind of concern is the sink right next to the corner cab. Is that too close? Just trying to get a decent drawer base/counter space to the right of the sink.)

Thank you for checking this out and thanks to everyone that took time for the last layout thread. All the comments helped me step back and rethink as I'm sure they will this time, lol. And forget the patio door label... forgot to remove it. No door on the dining porch, just big windows. And a dormer roof is not entirely off the table, Btw.

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I think I rather like it!

I was trying to think through the steps of cooking. Do you think you will prep under the window to the right (uggh ;-) of the big sink, or will you prep to the left of the prep sink? Actually, if it were e, I would do a little at one and a little at the other, and having two such spaces would be an advantage.

Maybe you should link to the old thread?

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 12:30AM
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I think probably still mostly prep on the left but use both as you say. OR prep over by the stove depending on what's cooking as they say. OR move my B.B. out and chop stuff up in the middle of the room! You don't think the sink is too tight to the corner cab?

I've posted a link if anyone is interested.

Here is a link that might be useful: old layout thread

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 7:06AM
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I like it, but I can't link to the old one. I find myself doing prep where my trash is, which isn't always workable, but I didn't have a choice on where it went. Th sink seems centered under the window, right? It looks good. I apologize if you've gone thru this, but I'll assume you decided on no island? It could be just the thwarted islander in me, but a lovely curved front island looking over your wide open porch area sounds delightful.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 7:31AM
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35: I did experiment with some suggestions on here for an island/peninsula and I really liked it except: the main entry through the house is through the kitchen hence the decision to keep the floor open and I have a family heirloom hutch that has no place in this tiny house other than where I've put it here. Those two things outweighed the peninsula, unfortunately.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 8:45AM
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I've adjusted a bit and moved the sink right, lost the lazy susan, put the DWD left of sink which gives me some drawers to the left of the sink in the 33". This does leave only 18" between sink and fridge. Better or worse?

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 8:50AM
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oops, here is the link to the old thread

Here is a link that might be useful: old thread

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 9:08AM
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goodness I'm brain dead this morning. Here is the layout with the changes.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 9:10AM
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Rethink the use of lazy susans in the corner. When we had our kitchen done I opted for shelves instead and I'm glad I did. There is only a bit of dead space on the bottom and I use it for seldom used larger appliances.

On the top shelf I use 2 plate racks. One holds 2 plastic baskets with extra spices and small things like jello and pudding boxes. Under it is boxes of plastic bags. The other one holds Pie plates and round cake tins on top and under it is my 9x13 pans with loaf tins inside

The top shelf is recessed from the bottom On the bottom I store things like my crock pot and kitchen machine and a few other appliances. In front I have large tall containers holding cereal and baking supplies.

I know I have more in this cupboard with shelves than I would ever have with lazy susans. The main reason I opted for shelves in the first place is I have seen people trying to retrieve things that have fallen off the lezy susan. I'm glad my option turned out so well

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 9:10AM
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Wrong direction on the lazy susans. They are ideal, as long as you get the pie-shaped ones where the door simply pushes into the cabinet and disappears as the contents come out to greet you.

Only two issues I have are 1) the hutch is blocking space to the right of your prep sink. Can't it go in the DR? and 2) freeer drawers by the range take up space and provide no function there. You almost never move from freezer to cooktop or oven. You need more storage there. Or put fridge drawers there, and go back to a fridge/freezer. Then your fridge can hold food for prep and you've got a nice tight little work area.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 9:30AM
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This comment refers to the original drawing of 8/22 22:05:

You don't think the sink is too tight to the corner cab?

No, it is fine. I happen to have a 30" cab next to a corner susan. I just went and stood at it, pretending there was a sink in it. There is loads of space before the corner. If I reach my arm out, I can barely reach the perpendicular counter run.

I have to admit that I am unsure how the DWD would work for you in that spot. Would there be enough room to access the sink when the DWD is open?

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 10:17AM
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I like it a lot overall, Deedles. You get to keep it more open but both sink and stove areas are configured to steer traffic away from them, and they're both good work spaces. Pretty darned good! I think this is pretty much what I'd do.

I was looking for Marcolo to weigh in on the lazy susan. Wish I had one of the type he recommends, and it would be on my required luxury list if I were building now.

The hutch's permanent home will remain there. Still and again. Gotcha. :) It'll be charming. Its entire back could be covered with something waterproof to protect it, or...?

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 11:09AM
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What marcolo said. If you're right handed, the prep sink ain't going to work with the tall hutch. You need at least a foot of air clearance to the right of the sink - more is better, but at least a foot.

I have watched dh try to use our prep sink - he's left and I'm right. It has very little clearance on the left side - maybe 6". It works ok for me but not for him.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 11:18AM
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Angie: thanks for the info on the cab/sink. I'd probably have to step back from the sink to load the DWD. Maybe the DWD is better right next door to the sink if possible.

Dowling: I currently have open shelves in a corner and although it holds a lot, my back dislikes it very much. I'm glad yours is working out for you, though!

Marcolo: I had the pie shaped ones and like them for large items. Tried small stuff and I did have to fish a few things that fell off. Good for pots and pans and crockpots, etc, though.

The only way I can see to fit a fridge on the sink wall is to use a counter depth all fridge that is 30" wide, otherwise I don't have enough fridge space. 36" takes up too much wall. A full depth encroaches on the room and it's on an outside wall so building it back won't work.

We're 60 minutes round trip from the grocery store so I'll be buying larger amounts plus our garden stuff and I really don't want to have to run to the garage or basement for daily use stuff. We will have a garage fridge for party overflow, etc.

Then the question is where does the freezer go?
What if the freezer drawers swapped with the prep sink cabinet?

Our dining porch is only 8' wide and the only available wall space is the portion directly behind the kitchen cabinets. All the other walls will be big windows. Gotta fit a table/chairs on one end and the desk/office space on the other. I can't seem to find another place for that hutch unless it's the living room which seems out of place. At least where it is now faces the 'dining area'.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 11:45AM
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Would this work:
Move the hutch 2 feet to the right. Extend the wall down two feet and build a thin wall behind the hutch.
You gain two feet of counter space and protect the hutch from moisture. Does the hutch extending two more feet into the LR cause problems? Looks OK here.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 12:18PM
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Hi Rosie: There would be a wall there and the hutch would back up against it.
Bmore: I am right handed. I was thinking that it would leave a lot of counterspace (a lot, haha)uninterrupted that way but I see the crunch factor that you guys are pointing out. Here I swapped with the freezer drawers:

and here I moved the freezer drawers over and inserted a 15" drawer base (made the wall a bit longer)


I suppose I could leave the wall open just behind the frz. dwrs and have a counter space accessible to the dining rm.


    Bookmark   August 23, 2012 at 12:35PM
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Deedles- You can move the big window?? I didn't realize that was still possible.

I would flip your layout on that wall, with a narrower, pull out pantry against the wall to the porch, then the fridge, then the dishwasher and finally the sink centered under the window. This will bring both sinks closer to the range and make it easier to walk into the kitchen (no open fridge door in the way) since this is your main access from the front door to the kitchen/porch/living room.

I like your prep sink centered on the counter, as you have it in the last drawing. Still open shelves on either side of the range, rather than upper cabinets?

As for the little turn of cabinetry overlooking the porch, I would take that out and just have a 3' to 4' wall, so you can have a bit of privacy, for the desk area. Hope that helps :)

    Bookmark   August 24, 2012 at 11:56AM
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I sent a quick drawing of this idea on Thursday at 12:18. I can't remember if it was considered before in the old threads.

I can't see that it would affect traffic flow or very much intrude on LR space to do this. It's only 2 feet, after all.

If you can extend the wall and move the hutch over to the right, the extra countertop would surely be nice. Then move sink and other stuff to take advantage of two more feet of counter. I didn't play with that--just moved the hutch over to see if it was a possibility for you.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2012 at 12:50PM
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Bellsmom: I'm sorry, I'll go back and look. I must have missed your drawing.

Lav: I'll play around with your ideas later today, too.

18y/o totaled my car yesterday. She's fine, car not so much. Anyway, I (obviously) haven't had time to think about kitchens although I now know that I want nothing that reminds me of a culvert in my kitchen ;)

But I will check it all out later after a long, long sleep starting....


    Bookmark   August 24, 2012 at 2:21PM
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Thanks be she is OK. A car is just metal.

Kitchen's on the way back burner.

Sleep well, and when you wake, hug your daughter.


We'll be thinking of you--and her.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2012 at 3:08PM
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No, just makes me think of my own teen daughter, who rolled her "cool" little red pickup the second day she had it. (Ice on a circular on-ramp in Southern California.) As long as they walk away from it, it's a great lesson. I'd have called and ordered one if I could.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2012 at 4:55PM
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New to this thread...

Why not just extend that wing wall next to the window another 2 feet and place the hutch there. You have, what, an 11-12 foot opening at the step there?

Narrowing that step seems better then screwing up your prep space by attaching the hutch to the penninsula.Too awkward.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2012 at 11:55PM
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OK read the other thread and get that you are opening up the view by widening the step.

But I still say park the hutch against the bottom wall. You say the hutch has to stay in the kitchen, but it needn't drive a wonky layout. Sometimes a view is enhanced by things in the forefront. And besides, it'll give you something nice to look at when the sun goes down.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 12:03AM
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Celticmoon: You're suggesting having the hutch in the kitchen, right? Ok. I can play around with that, too. Thanks for taking the time to read the threads, I do appreciate it.
Rosie: It is a good lesson (please God I hope it is) and she is fine and hopefully wiser. I do have another submission to the "things I've seen that I'll never forget" memory bank, though. (I watched the accident in my rear view mirror). Thank God she had her seat belt on.
Sandra: Thank you. Events like this do tend to put things into perspective, I agree. Getting kinda old for this much excitement, though, lol.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 1:29AM
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Sandra: I don't think I want to build a wall there just for 2 more feet of counter. Trying to leave the sight lines in this little house as open as possible. I'm just going to have to tweak what I've got to it's best advantage. Thank you for the suggestion, though and I will offer it up to DH and who knows, he might see something that I don't. (Oh and there would be a thin wall between the hutch and the counter, if it ends up where I've drawn it now.)
Lav: The only things not changeable at this time are the arched doorway (built in and finished on the other side already), the wall against the basement stairs and the step down into the porch. Barring a dormer roof addition, we have to have the step down lest we have a 6'8" ceiling at the low end of the porch. As far as I know, everything else, plumbing, gas lines, electrical, walls all of it is open for change since we'll be absolutely gutting it in there and DH is so dang handy. Oh , and I am planning on cabs by the stove not open shelves. I just didn't think to label them in any way and drew the red lines to show the depth. Sorry for the confusion. I'll flip some stuff around as you suggest and also will play around with Celtic's idea about the hutch.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 3:03AM
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Celtic: the hutch doesn't work there. Too in the way of prep space. I have no room in the kitchen proper for the thing.
Lav: If I don't turn the corner, I don't have room for the fridge, sink and DW on that wall. No way. To center the sink in the wall and have... well the measurement of that wall is 140". 12" pantry + 3" fill at wall + 30" fridge + 24" DW = 69". That's one inch from center already. The sink would have to move way down to the right. My problem with that big window moving down to the right is that I'll be staring head on at the front of the garage, whereas if I leave the window center or move it left, the river becomes more and more part of the view. I hope I'm communicating clearly on this. Stupid layout. Have I said that before?

How come Circuspeanut can figure out that convoluted kitchen with all the doorways and radiators and mudrooms and I'm screwed up on this simple but small thing here? Odd that.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 3:23AM
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Different people have different priorities. Generally, the more you look at it with an "open mind" - the more possibilities are seen. That's why I think its good to have many people take a look at it.

This is the sink, centered-ish plus the hutch in a different position.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 7:24AM
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Bmore: it worked! I saw. See?

Move the patio door in LR down and voila, room for hutch!

Thinking of this prep sink in the corner with the point of the sink forward so it can be as far forward as possible. Will use a pull-out faucet so I can fill tall or big pots that won't fit in the sink.

K guys. What do you think? Now there is room for a full-depth fridge with plenty of space between it and the prep sink. Am I getting closer or am I there?

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 9:00AM
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I like moving the hutch there. Brilliant. And worth the inconvenience of moving the door down. Nice for you to have that checked off the list.

Regarding the prep sink in this location:
1. Where will you do most of your prep?
I don't think I would do much prepping in this prep sink corner. I would feel confined by facing a corner, hedged in by the mass of the fridge and the range and hood. I would prep in front of the windows where you have nice space in this plan. However, I would keep the prep sink there for access to the range. Also useful when two are working in the kitchen.

2. IF you don't expect to use that area for a lot of prepping, I don't think I would put the sink in the corner. With the plumbing, you would lose most of the corner storage. Another of those times to weigh pros and cons. Put the sink close to the fridge as you had it close to the hutch before--yeah, not ideal, but if it isn't heavily used for most prep--and you can have a susan in that corner and maybe two narrow drawer stacks. Otherwise it is the corner is mostly dead space.

I think a good plumber can run the pipes to the back of the prep cabinet and you can maybe have two drawers, shallower than usual, under the sink.

By the way, can you use frameless cabs for the drawer stacks? You save maybe as much as three inches in width in each drawer with frameless. Not so important in uppers.

Hope the world looks sunnier for both you and DD this morning.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 9:58AM
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Bellsmom: Yea! I'm glad someone besides me thinks it's a good idea to move that hutch. That's a good place as the hutch has drop leaves on each side so they could be lifted when in this spot. I hardly every lift them (Christmas for treat plates) but...

The prep sink. I will absolutely be doing most of my prep to the left of the sink. I'm a trail horse and that is my barn, lol.

But, when Marcolo et al suggested it would be helpful, DH and I talked about and can see the usefulness of a little sink over there. Mostly for filling kettles, making drinks, getting a drink of water, etc. And like you said, two could work in the kitchen then, too.

I thought the corner would be good because then I could have two largish drawer banks for pots and such. I saw Circuspeanuts 90 degree corner sink as well as one by Viva and it seemed to work out for them? I'll continue to play around with possibilities, though.

Yes, frameless lowers for sure with inset uppers and mostly glass doors.

Thanks, the world is brighter and surprisingly, when I told DD that I needed to use her car this week, she was happy to accomodate me!

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 1:51PM
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YES! That last drawing places the hutch close to what I meant. I'd move the hutch left and build out the wall behind it rather than move the large window... Or center it like Bmore has it in the one just before.

I like bmore's layout MUCH better for the counter runs. The fridge where you have it in that last one will hulk and block light to your prep area.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 2:00PM
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Celtic: Not sure what you mean by 'move the hutch left'? Like extend the wall that it's on in the last picture to the left? There is a 2 ft. wall currently there that we are going to remove so as to open up the river view to the whole house. The patio door only exists in our minds so placement can be wherever at this point. But I agree, getting that hutch out of the kitchen proper is the answer. (Centering in the open doorway won't happen for multiple reasons.)

I'm a gonna keep foolin' around with cabinets. Thanks for the input, Celtic.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 2:10PM
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I do have a bias against corners, often they are not worth it with a very short leg like you have there. Bmore's loses that corner and shortens the wall bit between kitchen and dining porch. Lenthening the wall at the other end (shown in red) leaves you with the step and opening just about as wide.

Comparable opening, one less corner, no moving the patio door.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 2:24PM
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I didn't realize the patio door wasn't there yet.That does make moving it easier ;)

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 2:26PM
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Okay, I gotcha. well, that would be easier as it's right where the wall is now, lol. Maybe so. Why don't you like corners, btw?

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 2:29PM
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Corners... well, I think in a new design every inch of cabinet and counter should be worth the space and the cost. A corner and bitty penninsula often just are not worth their price to me because:

1) the corner cabinet storage, even a high end susan, is less accessible than drawers. Some kitchen anaysts recommend considering corner storage to be half the value of straight run storage.

2)The counter space is also less accessible. The 'half value' figure applies here as well. Working in a corner is different from working at a straight counter. (Especially a walled corner - at least your would be open visually and not recall "go stand in the corner")

3)Standing space is limited. Where two people could access a 4 ft straight run, there is only room for one to stand in a corner tying up 6 linear feet of cabinet/counter.

4)open DWs, drawers and cabinet doors need careful planning to not collide in a corner.

5)Counter install is more complex - usually involves a seam & sometimes a pattern direction dilemna.

6)Straight run is more open. The walking area grows larger without the little penninsula and there is less feeling boxed in.

We chopped off a penninsula nub in SIL's small kitchen redo a couple years ago and it is SO much more open and functional for multiple workers. I know that seems counterintuitive (ha no pun intended), because there was one less cabinet and less counter. But what is there feels and works so much better now.

So that's my 2 cents on corners.

Now there are times that a penninsula can function to 'protect' the cook from traffic and that can be a good thing. Also, your situation is unigue because of that step. The bitty penninsula might be very helpful to prevent falls. Come to think of it, the hutch diverting traffic helps reinforce a 'landing' footprint or pause before the step drop.(My sister had a step right at the end of a counter run and people frequently did fall off. I did, more than once. A step is not something you expect at the end of a counter run.)

So yes, I do generally dislike and avoid corners when possible. But thinking on it more, your kitchen may benefit from one because of that step. Every kithcen really is unigue.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2012 at 7:36PM
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