Where do I Place a light over table that isn't centered?

2LittleFishiesAugust 15, 2012

The electrician is putting in lights tomorrow and we are trying to figure out where to put a single light fixture over the banquette table. Obviously it won't be centered over table but having trouble figuring out where the non-existent table will fall.

The tables I'm looking at are 41 1/4 or 42" wide. The built ins on either side of bench are 24" deep so cab maker said the bench would come out further... maybe to 28/29".

I am confused b/c I'm thinking the table will overlap the seat a bit, right?

The width of the room is 145" (12' 1") It is 16' 6" long but that part is easy to get the center.

Thanks!

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phiwwy

Yes i would center it over where you think the center of the table will be. But you do have to figure out the depth of the banquette/bench. Deeper than 24" sounds too deep to me. I would suggest 20" or so, depending on what the back will be like. If it's not as deep as the cabinets, then it's tougher to slide into the bench. if it's deeper than 24", then you will need a thicker back so the seating is comfortable. Yes the table should over hang the bench seat a bit. I went through these same calculations recently and found I did have to figure out the exact design of the banquette.

    Bookmark   August 15, 2012 at 10:32PM
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2LittleFishies

The cabs are 24" deep so I think the bench will have to be 28-29" and then I could get thick back cushions. I'm thinking the table would overhang the bench about 3"?
Obviously we can move the table to where we want it but it's hard to say where the light goes (or where the center of table will be) when the room is 100% empty!

    Bookmark   August 15, 2012 at 11:28PM
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breezygirl

I think I may have posted this on a thread for you before. The head restaurant designer at DH's office drew this banquette pic with measurements. My research prior to this pointed to a larger overhang, about 6", than this shows.

HTH!

    Bookmark   August 16, 2012 at 2:37AM
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Bellsmom

I think the idea of the wider seat is to allow easier access into the seat. It might be necessary if the table is very wide, almost to the cabinets that flank the recess. If the table is round or oval or if the table is shorter than the recess, people should be able to get in and out OK with a counter-depth seat.

1. Try a mockup for booth depth. Measure some kitchen chairs for depth. Measure 29'' deep on the edge of a bed or something and sit on it. Think about how much cushioning you would need to make a 28-29'' deep booth a comfortable depth for sitting. You don't want booth back cushions more than slightly wedge-shaped or slanted, unlike lounge chairs where we like to lean back. You want to sit nearly erect at a table. Why have thick back cushions?

You might also try a mockup with the constraints of table width and cabinet edges.

2. Are you planning a recessed light over the table or a pendant? If it's a pendant, it is pretty important that it be centered. And that banquette is a super place for a gorgeous pendant.

3. Breezygirl's graph gives the information needed if you know the width of your table.
Width of booth seat minus three inches for table overlap plus 1/2 table width.

    Bookmark   August 16, 2012 at 9:43AM
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christine40

why don't you have the electrician pull the wires into the general area, but not cut the actual hole until the final?? That's what our guys did with our island pendants-they pulled the wires, left them in the ceiling. Once the island was set and they were installing final electrical (UCL, ect), they measured and centered the holes over the island-then cut and pulled the wires through?

Could this be an option for you?

    Bookmark   August 16, 2012 at 9:58AM
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2LittleFishies

I will check on that : )

Thanks everyone for the suggestions. Cab guy is coming today while electrician is here so we'll work it through.

    Bookmark   August 16, 2012 at 10:03AM
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breezygirl

I meant to mention last night that I prefer an overhang closer to 6" and am planning that for our new banquette. I found with our old banquette that 3" wasn't enough to be able to sit comfortably and still be relatively on top of my plate when I ate. Little DS really needed the 6" overhang also so as not to spill so much. Overhang preference is easy to mock up also to see what feels right to you.

    Bookmark   August 16, 2012 at 11:45AM
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2LittleFishies

Thanks Breezy! I was thinking 3" but the electrician said he thinks 5 or 6 would be better : )

    Bookmark   August 16, 2012 at 12:41PM
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2LittleFishies

SOOOO-- The electrician, decorator, cabinetmaker and I discussed this today while measuring etc...

The tables I was thinking of purchasing are 6.5-7' long. The Banquette Bench (being built by cab guy) is 8 1/2 ' long. Built ins on either side are almost 4' long.

In order to get into the seat with a 6.5' table there's only 1' on either side to squeeze into using a 5' overhang as well. We decided the bench itself will stick out from either side of cabinetry and have an angle on it so it's easier to get in.

The problem with a rectangular table is that the corner of the table is making it more difficult to get in. They suggested I buy an oval table so that corner will be rounded/clipped off.

So, now I need an oval table. Does that make sense?

We found a spot for the light assuming the table I get is 41/42". That seems the smaller issue at this point.

    Bookmark   August 17, 2012 at 7:05PM
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Bellsmom

Definitely an oval table. And how about sculpting the bench to a curve? 30'' deep at the ends, 24'' deep at the center? It depends on the curve of the table.

My right hand is apparently six years old when it tries to draw in Photoshop with a mouse. But you get the idea.

This curved booth is 30'' wide at the ends, 24'' wide at the center with a 6''table overlap. Or that is what my brain told my hand to draw.

I would choose the table BEFORE deciding on the shape of the booth. An oval table and a curved booth makes sense to me. But I would want to mock up the booth around the table to check it out.

    Bookmark   August 17, 2012 at 11:07PM
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francoise47

Without going custom, you will be able to find a 42" round pedestal table
that can be expanded with a leaf to an oval.
But if you can fit a 48" round pedestal table (that expands to an oval),
you'll have even more "off the rack" options.

Or, did you have in mind a fixed oval table?

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 7:10AM
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2LittleFishies

Hi francoise- either is okay. I'm thinking a round that becomes oval with a leaf. Or a fixed oval is ok too.
One round was 52" though with 16" leaf. That may be too deep.
I wonder if even 48 will bring us too close to island bc there will be a stool at that end. The rectangles were 41/42" deep
The dr is About 12 1/2 feet from fridge end.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 7:21AM
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Clarion

Standard table width is 30" to 36". 42" is a VERY wide table. I also don't think the oval or round works with the straight bench. Can't picture it looking well.

Rather than make the bench so deep, have them instead build it out from the wall about 6". Then you can have a nice shelf area behind it to place all your favorite bric-a-bracs, or utensils/napkins etc.

I think you simply need to have space on each side of the table to sit down and then slide over. Though 12" will not be wide enough.

We just put in a tin ceiling and had the same problem with the light, because only some of the tiles could accept a light fixture. But with a pendant light we decided the fixture didn't have to be centered. We could just add a hook over the exact center of the table once we have it, and then hang the pendant from the fixture to the hook.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 7:40AM
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2LittleFishies

Clarion really? When shopping for tables 36" was considered narrow and I was told you can barely fit food on the table? My last table was 41" wide and didn't seem overly big at all.

I agree the straight bench with oval table seems odd and you lose eating space. However, does curving the bench as Bellsmom also suggested just make the opening smaller again and defeat the idea of using oval in the first place? Do you know what I mean?

Here are some photos that might be useful.

Original Idea:

Curved:

Always loved this one-- and we will also have cabinetry on either side:

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 8:26AM
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ellendi

I love the one with the red stripes.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 8:32AM
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Bellsmom

I never played with banquettes before, so this has been interesting. I know you have been thinking about this for ages.
I am sure you have already considered these ideas and dimensions, but here are two sketches that might be useful.

Round table with extensions outward into the room.

Rectangular table

Of course, I am not sure if my seating guesses are right.
Thanks for letting me play with banquette tables for the first time.
Sandra

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 10:32AM
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2LittleFishies

Sandra- Thanks so much- feel free to play : )
I really don't know anything about banquettes except I like the way they look!
I didn't see any issues with my plan (long bench/rectangular table) until we tried to work it out in the real space.

The rectangular option looks good, but that's what I was planning and it didn't seem enough space to get into it... unless the table were smaller.
However with an 8 1/2' bench I hate to have much of it be unusable for eating?
I know the guideline is 2' minimum per eater so I had hoped to get 3 people in there when needed. Even if it's not a "meal" and just hanging out with drinks or whatever I want to make sure people can access the table.

This is a bit confusing and I want to make sure whatever plan will work : )

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 11:32AM
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ILoveRed

No help here but I love the second picture. So cozy...

I think my electrician also left the wires until we were ready to install the fixtures in many places.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 11:48AM
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2LittleFishies

Here's a handy seating guide for various table shapes & sizes--
http://www.cottagehomemaine.com/diningtableseatingguide.html

Here is a link that might be useful: SEATING GUIDE for table sizes

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 11:53AM
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Bellsmom

(I'm painting ten cabinet doors. Primer is on, just waiting for paint to dry. So I'm back to play here. It's that or clean house. That's a no-brainer.)

That table-seating guide is a goodie. I saved it.

Here's a banquette summary as I see it--excluding esthetics.

FOR YOUR SPACE

Max table size:
Rectangular: 78'' is pushing the max.
Round: 60'' looks OK.

Adding leaves:
Rectangular: Leaves would extend the table into access area. Probably won't work.
Round: Any number of leaves could be added to extend the table into an oval that is perpendicular to the banquette.

Max. Seating:
Rectangular: A max of three at the banquette, I think. A wider table would allow more comfortable end seating.
Round:I think four MIGHT sit in the banquette. A bit tight at the knees, maybe, but OK at the table surface and shoulder room. Not sure of this.

Astonishing to me that an 8' area seems to work better with a round table!!

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 1:03PM
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PRO
Sophie Wheeler

How many people do you need to sit there with the island so close? Why not do a small round table and curved banquette like so many of your inspirations? It won't be any deeper to do that than the chairs next to the table will be for a rectangle banquette.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 3:29PM
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lalithar

Fishies,

Some notes from my architect on building a comfortable banquette...

Seat - angle down 1" to make it more comfortable to sit and to prevent the seat cushions from sliding out. Height.. Plan on 4" thick foam cushions that is comfortable to sit on. So the height of the firm surface should be around 14 inches or so to accommodate this cushion. The seat should extend around 5-6inches beyond the adjoining cabinets to allow the people sitting to tuck their feet under. This makes the seat more comfortable for the sitters. If the space under the bench is hollow, you do not need this lip.

Back - angle back 3 inches to make it comfortable to lean back. You don't want a straight back. The back cushions are a good idea and should be around 3 inches. Make sure that there is a wood lip on the back surface to tuck the back cushion under. This angled back and the cushion will also need the extra depth from the seat so take that into account. She recommended minimum 22 inch depth after accommodating the 3 inch for angled back. If this seat will be used for kids to hang out and play or if at anytime the sitters will sit cross legged on the cushions, deeper seat is needed.

Loose cushions.. They look pretty but are not comfortable when several people are sitting.

Table.. She recommended a trestle table to make it easy to get in and out. She said an oval table would only accommodate 1 or 2 people to sit and eat at the table..so if eating is a goal for the banquette to use a rectangular table with 29 inches or so height.
Hope this helps.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 3:57PM
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dilly_ny

I moved my 4 legged, oval shaped dining room table into the space where my banquette will be (bench not built yet). I definitely prefer the oval table to access the back seating and a trestle table is a must. It's a tough combination to find in a farmhouse style that I am looking for.

As for the light, I had to install my chandelier prior to getting table and banquette and I fear it is going to have to be moved a few inches once everything is in place.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 5:58PM
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MaggieQ

Thanks to Breezy's recommendation, we sought out a local company that makes banquettes for restaurants. Altho we ended up not going that route, they were very helpful, had many options on display, offered a comfy solution, and were in the same price range as having the cabinet maker build a "death" bench for us. Recommend you search out a local provider in your area. You could also check out local restaurants for banquette/table combos that may help with your decision. Good luck.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 7:16PM
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2LittleFishies

bellsmom- Thanks SO much! It's so great of you to help me out : )

lalitha- Those are great guidelines to refer to- thanks!

holly- There are 4 of us but I originally expected 8 could fit at the banquette for when extra seating is needed. The kitchen/dr are our only areas so I'd like to have some flexibility. The rectangular table was 41/42" deep.
A circle I like is 52" round and then has a 16" leaf. Not sure if that will stick out to far.

I measured the end of the island countertop to the back of the DR wall and it is 13' 6". I'm thinking the furthest I should probably go out from the dR wall with table/chairs is 8 or 9' from DR wall? That would give 4.5-5.5' between island and chair at table. I'll have to mock something up. What do you think?

dilly and Maggie- thanks for your help too!! Good thoughts.

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 9:29PM
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2LittleFishies

I am thinking if it is ROUND, I could do the 52" but not larger. Smaller may only seat 4 which really isn't great for me.

****

*ROUND: 52" (48" may not seat 6?)

Rectangle: 60" or 72"
* Maybe 72" would even require an oval. A 72" rectangle gives 15" space to get into seat. I know 12" was too small.

OVAL: 60" or 72"

    Bookmark   August 18, 2012 at 10:48PM
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Bellsmom

SEATING
1. We have a 42'' round table in our kitchen. With one 12'' leaf it easily seats six.

This shows a 60'' round table extended to 90'' (I think!!) Maybe a little less. Two 15'' leaves? I don't know anything about standard dimensions of tables and leaves.

Looks to me as if this would be OK. IMO, the round shape near the island allows a closer fit than a rectangular shape would.

I didn't mock it up, but I think this would easily seat 9.

I gotta go spackle the fronts of my cabs. Have fun planning.

Sandra

    Bookmark   August 19, 2012 at 10:12AM
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Bellsmom

oops. The table as graphed is 54'', not 60. There isn't enough overlap of the banquette seats. I didn't notice when I was doing it.

    Bookmark   August 19, 2012 at 1:07PM
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2LittleFishies

How do you think this 52" round that extends to 68" oval work? It comes in various colors. Its the same line as the 6.5' rectangle I was planning on.

I might just keep it in the oval position. How many do you think it would fit?

Here is a link that might be useful: Ballard Tovalo Table

    Bookmark   August 19, 2012 at 1:21PM
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Bellsmom

A comment on the Ballard table:
Our 42'' table is made this way. With a pedestal that does NOT divide in half when the 12'' leaf is inserted. This means the leaf extension is all on one side of the pedestal.

For us, this is a real nuisance. We have to warn people sitting on the long side of the table not to press down on the table when they get up. The table tips (sometimes disastrously) if a person at the long end presses down.

The table is an old family piece, and I will keep it, but I would never buy one built like this.

Look at the picture you posted and you can see the table is off center when extended.

    Bookmark   August 19, 2012 at 1:34PM
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2LittleFishies

Bellsmom- Wow! That was a great piece of information! Do they make round pedestal tables that divide in the middle?

If not, better to just buy oval...

    Bookmark   August 19, 2012 at 2:34PM
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phiwwy

I'm getting my table from Pompanoosuc. Very customizable and perfect for a kitchen table, because you can wash the wood with Windex, minimally you can clean with a sponge.

    Bookmark   August 19, 2012 at 3:15PM
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2LittleFishies

Maybe I'll have an oval table custom done from here-- many options/sizes : )

Here is a link that might be useful: CottageHomeMaine

    Bookmark   August 19, 2012 at 10:09PM
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a2gemini

Wow- wish I had seen some of these before I did our banquette! Lovely!!!
Mine is just a bench with a rise up table (won't have the table for another 4-8 weeks as it is being customized for our space)
Fishies - can't wait to see yours. I think you saw our pictures - one thing we did was to put a piano hinge on the back of the bench so I can flip down the top to access the window as we did not want to change out the windows in this area.

    Bookmark   August 20, 2012 at 10:59AM
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breezygirl

I've been away out of state at a family reunion for three days. Sorry you were struggling with this.

Quick, quick thoughts as I'm on my way out of town today with the kids to the zoo:

--We are having our banquette table top made by the woodworker who made our walnut counter. Because our banquette will be smooshed into the island with the walnut top, I thought it better to match the the table top to the counter. Have you thought of that option? Then it can be exactly any old odd size you want.

--My DH calls me Capt Obvious so I'll avoid restating the fact that you need a good deal of sliding-in space with your banquette set up. (I thought the issue came up a while back on one of your threads.) From my distant memory studying banquette dimensions, 15" is probably about minimal. Try mocking it up to see if it allows you, and your more robust guests, easy entry.

It's going to be gorgeous when it's done!

    Bookmark   August 20, 2012 at 11:38AM
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2LittleFishies

Thanks Breezy- I don't think we discussed the slide in space on my threads but it is totally possible it was and I was fixed on something else and missed it! : )

Great to know 15" is the minimum. 12" was definitely too small!

    Bookmark   August 20, 2012 at 1:04PM
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2LittleFishies

OK so cab maker suggests I find a table or at least a size/shape and he can build to go with that. I'm thinking a 52" or 54" round that extends to oval perpendicular to bench may work best (as you said Bellsmom) for special occasions. We have a family of 4 and I'd like to fit 2 more people for when either of our parents visit.

I drew up a 72" (6') oval but it looks like it may be too long for the 8 1/2 foot bench . Most would have to sit in chairs. I think only 2 comfortably at bench and then chairs at heads of table. Would not be able to extend table b/c it would block entrance to bench. Probably 7 people could sit.

Thoughts?

    Bookmark   September 3, 2012 at 10:58PM
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Bellsmom

Comments on table shape:

As you know, an oval table and a round table with leaves in are different ovals. An oval table is, as far as I can remember, NOT a hemisphere on each end. More pointed than that. I would look at them carefully, because your banquette will probably be hemispherical.

I think a 54'' or maybe even a 60'' round will work for you in the space. With two leaves when you need to extend it.

The style I would look for is a five foot round double pedestal or trestle table that could be extended with leaves. Be certain that when the leaves are inserted, the base spreads to provide a balanced top. Or, in a few tables, both circle halves move apart on glides, the leaf is inserted in the middle, and the base stays centered.

(I think a pedestal or trestle table will provide better entrance clearance into the booth than a table with four legs, like the last one in the pics you posted.)

I have seen antique ones like this., but not any modern ones that I can recall. Maybe someone will have suggestions.

Maybe you can try out some tables in a good furniture store and see if the lop-sided extension on only one side of the pedestal is a problem. It sure is on mine.

I am eager to see your finished kitchen. This is going to be lovely.
Sandra

    Bookmark   September 4, 2012 at 8:31AM
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2LittleFishies

Please answer at new thread here:

Here is a link that might be useful: NEW BANQUETTE THREAD

    Bookmark   September 4, 2012 at 8:41AM
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