kitchen layout, already framing!

kentuckyhillsAugust 10, 2014

Our house is going up quickly and I need to finalize the kitchen while we are waiting on the trusses to be delivered. I am posting our original kitchen plan first. I am going to move the wall over one foot into the living room either way, but my main question is whether I should actually take that wall out altogether and have an island there instead (I will post that picture separately, since i don't know how to post multiples)

If you see any other ways to make our small kitchen more user-friendly, please chime in! We are a family of 5 (3 small boys, they do like to bake with me). I have gained a small pantry toward the garage (upper left of first photo, just out of view), so appliances and bulk can be stored in there.

I am concerned with the island idea that the dishwasher will be so far from all the storage, but you can't have everything I guess. I have also considered making the wall with the fridge like the link below, but without the paneled fridge (out of our budget). Maybe we can hide the microwave in there somewhere?

Also, I am undecided on the one level or bar height going into the living room, whether it is a peninsula OR an island. Any help would be appreciated!

Here is a link that might be useful: pantry/fridge wall

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Here is my idea with an island instead (this shows the wall moved farther into the living room, which I will do either way). A friend who is actually a high-end custom cabinet maker said that he thought we would be much happier with the flow of this kitchen, even with the dishwasher issue.

Also, I am including a link to another interesting peninsula idea that is both two level (for blocking the sink from view AND one level (for cereal eating and little baking helpers). Granted, this kitchen obviously has more space than ours...

Here is a link that might be useful: one level or two?

    Bookmark   August 10, 2014 at 9:47PM
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You can copy and paste images from houzz into this thread very easily. Right click on the photo, then copy the info in the box labeled "large image" and paste it in this thread. That way we can see what you're talking about without flipping between views.

Here's the pantry wall you linked to:

Traditional Kitchen by Ann Arbor Design-Build Firms Rochman Design-Build Inc.

Here's the peninsula plan:

Traditional Kitchen by Lakeville Design-Build Firms College City Design Build

84" is *much* too wide an aisle for this kitchen to be functional. You can fit an island but not one where you've positioned it.

Secondly, you would hate having your sink at the very edge of your island.

Here's a very quick take on your kitchen:

Before I spend more time drawing anything up, I need to know exactly what the finished dimensions will be. You said you're adding a foot to the kitchen but I can't tell if that's already included in the above drawing or not.

We also need to know what kind of fridge you intend to purchase: standard depth (about 35" depth for fridge box, doors and handles) or counter depth (about 30"-31" depth for fridge box, doors and handles). That will affect aisles and lay-out.

    Bookmark   August 10, 2014 at 10:45PM
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We also need to see your main floor plan. Is that wall helping to obscure the kitchen from the front door, for example?

    Bookmark   August 10, 2014 at 11:45PM
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Thanks for the inserting picture help! We will do a regular depth refrigerator, with French doors. I definitely do not want a bottleneck when the fridge is open, having lived with that in a few kitchens.

Turning the island would be nice from a dishwasher perspective, but I am concerned about stools in the major walkway at the top (between kitchen and dining room), since the left hand side is the garage and the righthand is everything else.

This floor plan I am posting does not include the pantry, where there is a coat closet in the entry, it will expand to be a 5'x10' pantry.

Thanks for looking at this for me!

    Bookmark   August 11, 2014 at 8:32AM
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- If you do rotate the island like Lisa's suggestion, I would move the DW to the right side of the sink.

- since you're getting standard depth fridge, pull out the base cabinets along the fridge wall (and the cabinet above the fridge) so that the fridge doesn't look like it sticks out that far/make it look more built-in.

- will you vent out through the ceiling?

- But my big question has to do w/ the mud room area.
Is the entry off the garage the mudroom, or is the room labeled Mud w/ the washer/dryer the mudroom room?

The ENTRY should be treated as the mudroom, so it needs lots of storage/bench/hooks, etc., not just that 1 little closet there.

I did my reno to add in my beloved mudroom. so i did a lot of research/hunting online.


    Bookmark   August 11, 2014 at 11:22AM
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What is labelled "entry" will be the mudroom- though there will only be cubbies/hooks along the one wall. What is labelled "mudroom" will be the laundry room, with storage for cleaning supplies, and a broom closet.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2014 at 11:58AM
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I agree with the above poster, switch the sink and dishwasher (so the sink is closer to the fridge), but I would also add drawers to the right of the dishwasher (sink-dw-drawers) and that's where I'd store my dishes. I'd store glasses in the cabinet that would then be across from the dishwasher, to the left of the stove (facing the stove).

Second, I wouldn't worry about the "major walkway" unless there's a wall between the kitchen and dining room. If there's no wall, there's nothing confining walkers to that space.

    Bookmark   August 11, 2014 at 12:01PM
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Here are two ideas for you, both variations of the above plan. Since you didn't answer my question about the actual room dimensions, I had to make an assumption on its width and length. Since you wrote that your kitchen is going to take a foot from your LR and your DR is 14' wide, I assumed your kitchen will be 15' (180") wide. If that's an incorrect assumption, you'll need to adjust the island size.

I created a "wall of tall" ala one of your inspiration photos for both Plans B and C. The only real change between plans B and C is the DW location.

I did not add any upper cabinets to the range wall - again, going off your inspiration pic of the wall of tall supplying the majority of necessary storage.

Aisles are generous at 48" between counters in the working portion of the kitchen and 45.5" between island and DR (not DR table). You have 3 island seats on a curved seating overhang with ample aisles behind the island seats. NKBA recommends a minimum of 44" behind seated diners, 60" aisles between back to back seating.

Here's the rationalization behind DW placement.

In Plan B, it's out of the primary work path between fridge, sink and range. You can store silverware, dishes, and glasses in the 27" wide cab to the left of the sink or across the aisle to the right (looking at it from above) of the range.

However, if you or your spouse prefer to have glasses, dishes and silverware closer to the fridge (esp glasses) and table, then the DW placement in Plan C makes more sense. You could also modify the 41" pantry cab closest to the DR with pantry pull-outs below counter and dish hutch sitting on the counter, something like this:

Eclectic Kitchen by Pasadena Design-Build Firms HartmanBaldwin Design/Build

You could turn the dish hutch part to face the DR as they did in this kitchen:

Traditional Kitchen by San Francisco Kitchen & Bath Designers Barbra Bright Design

It's not quite as convenient to unload the DW but it's pretty. ;-)

    Bookmark   August 11, 2014 at 2:31PM
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Lisa! Thanks so much! Sorry that I didn't post the dimensions on the earlier post. I had to get out my ruler since they were a little confusing on the blueprints, too. The 14 feet is from the outside of one dining room wall to the other outside. The MAX I can get on the range run is 14 feet from the wall to the end on the living room side. The other dimension (wall to end of pantry run) is 11'8".

I like your island ideas! Especially getting a drawer next to the dishwasher AND a place to put trash! I hadn't come up with any good ideas for trash. I have a revised drawing that I will try to post tonight. Thank you so much for weighing in!

    Bookmark   August 11, 2014 at 6:46PM
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You're welcome!

Since you need to lose a foot off the island in Plans B and C, here are two additional plans for you to consider.

I moved the fridge but it's still recessed into the wall and the base cabs are pulled out from the wall as they were in Plans B and C. It's not as close to the DR as it was but it's at the end of the working kitchen so someone can grab items from the fridge without walking into the cook/prep zone. It also makes it easier for family to grab a drink from the family room or from the bonus room (my boys and their friends nearly wore a path in my vinyl floors from our bonus room to fridge and pantry for snacks).

I added a shelf behind the range to deal with the extra depth here but you can also make it a shelf all across the back of that counter as shown in this image

Traditional Kitchen by Sarasota Architects & Building Designers Clifford M. Scholz Architects Inc.

The 12' deep pantry/hutch wall would be something like this:

Traditional Kitchen by Norwich Architects & Building Designers Smith & Vansant Architects PC

Or this:

Traditional Kitchen by Fort Worth Design-Build Firms V Fine Homes

Plan D moves the sink and DW off the island and onto the perimeter next to the pantry/dish hutch.

The range wall is similar to Plan D. The island is a foot shorter but now has a prep sink. This gives you clearly defined clean-up and prep/cook zones.

Even though the island is a foot shorter, you still have room for 3 seats at the island. And you likely have room for 4 seats at the island in Plans B, C and D because the seating overhang is curved, not straight. When your contractor or cab maker draws up the plans, just make sure there is a minimum of 24" of counter per person and you'll be fine.

I forgot to make a place for the MW in both of these, oops. In Plan D, you can either go with a MW drawer between fridge and range or in the island across from the fridge or add a cubby for a GE Spacemaker II in the pantry/dish hutch cab. This MW is designed to fit in upper cabs so it's shallower than most.

Contemporary Kitchen by San Francisco Interior Designers & Decorators Justrich Design

This post was edited by lisa_a on Tue, Aug 12, 14 at 18:05

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 3:05PM
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I'm going to say Lisa's Plan E is the best layout. It's very close to what I have. We're doing everything DIY, so the kitchen is functional but still very far from being finished. Even still, I love the separation of zones!

Here are the differences from Plan E to mine, in case you are interested: Trash & recycling is under the cleanup sink, the prep sink is not in yet but will be 15" in from the fridge end of the island, another trash will be under prep sink and possibly the recycling will be there as well (I look forward to having both on the perimeter of the kitchen), my double ovens are where your pantry is, and I have a separate pantry elsewhere.

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 7:08PM
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I am very very appreciative of the time you have taken, Lisa. It has definitely shown me that so much more is possible! Thanks for the input, Tracie. I am liking E the best, I think, though I prefer a square island and I might just keep it at 40 inches deep and change that 36 drawer to a 24. Less to clean. I love getting the main sink off the island, since I am a bit of a sink-clutter-er.

I am a little hesitant about the full height pantry being at one end and the fridge at the other, just because of the visual volume, but I will think on that. In any case, this has all been very helpful.

I love the furniture-look hutches, too. I was trying to sell my husband on that, but i think they really only look good with glass front doors, and we only have a limited amount of stuff that would actually look good behind glass ;). I do prefer the kitchen to look individual and open and not just walls of cabinets, though- so thank you for the unique ideas.

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 9:31PM
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Just to get a little crazy with the full-height placement, this is interesting:

Traditional Kitchen by Wayzata Design-Build Firms Hendel Homes

Way to embrace the corner, people! Of course they have a third wall to place their fridge on, which I don't have...

    Bookmark   August 12, 2014 at 9:56PM
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The pantry/hutch cab can have solid doors, not glass, like this:

Traditional Kitchen by Youngstown General Contractors Shannon Cabinetry

Another alternative is to do glass cabs and add fabric or decorative paper to the back of the glass doors.

Farmhouse Kitchen by Millbrook Architects & Building Designers Crisp Architects

Traditional Kitchen by Minneapolis Interior Designers & Decorators Herrick Design Group

Modern Kitchen by Eugene Architects & Building Designers 2fORM Architecture

As to your concern about the visual volume of having fridge at one end and pantry at the other, there's going to be visual volume simply because both of those things are big and bulky. You can either have it all in one place or balance their weight at each end of the kitchen.

I'm not sure what you mean by square island. Do you mean only 40" x 40"? Or do you mean a rectangular island 40" x 94.5". My vote is for the latter with a small change, a 43.5" x 94.5" island. You have the space to have a generous overhang: go for it and make that overhang 18" deep. It makes for more comfortable island seating; your tall friends and family members will especially thank you for it.

Ovens and ranges in corners can be done but they are trickier to do right. They also eat up a lot of wall space in each direction. I'm not sure what you'd gain by going with that type of set-up.

btw, I like my Plan E best, too. Wish I had room for such a large island. Best of luck with your build!

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 12:47AM
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Oh, sorry- I did mean rectangular, not squared. I guess I meant "squared off" and not curved. I am not even planning on doing a separate oven wall, so that picture didn't really apply- I had just never seen the corner look actually useful.

The fabric behind doors is a great idea, too!

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 8:55AM
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I am a little hesitant about the full height pantry being at one end and the fridge at the other, just because of the visual volume

In my first kitchen (designed circa 1985) we have the oven stack next to the refrigerator. Trust me, that's worse in terms of visual volume than having the "big boxes" separated. It just loomed over the kitchen like a behemoth. I couldn't wait to tear it out (which I did when we remodeled in 2006).

    Bookmark   August 13, 2014 at 11:46AM
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What do you all think of the way plan E would look from the living room? (which you can see is just to the right of the kitchen on the plan)

    Bookmark   August 14, 2014 at 3:22PM
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I had a number of people try to talk me into moving my fridge to where my wall ovens are so that the fridge wasn't in direct line of vision from my FR. I wasn't able to do that, not without losing my wall ovens - and believe me, I tried! ;-)

You'd see the side of your fridge cab, not the fridge and if you designed the hutch as something more than just floor to ceiling cabs, I think the sink wall could be quite nice to view.

Maybe something like this (ignore the windows and mantle hood)

Traditional Kitchen by Downers Grove Design-Build Firms Oakley Home Builders

Or this:

Traditional Kitchen by San Francisco Interior Designers & Decorators Steven Miller Design Studio, Inc.

If you gave up a bit of counter and cab storage on the range wall, you could add shallow cabs to the side of your fridge to be viewed from the LR. Like this but for something prettier than pantry goods.

Contemporary Kitchen by Barrington Architects & Building Designers Kate Marker Interiors

Or this one:

Traditional Kitchen by Silver Spring Design-Build Firms Gilday Renovations Design Build

Or this one:

Transitional Kitchen by Mississauga Interior Designers & Decorators Gabriele Pizzale Design Inc.

You could also add a narrow wall next to your fridge and hang artwork on it.

Traditional Kitchen by Lakeville Design-Build Firms College City Design Build

They hung artwork directly on the fridge cab

Traditional Kitchen by Portland Photographers Whitney Lyons

You could also paint the side with chalkboard paint for kid activities and command central zone.

Traditional Kitchen by San Francisco Architects & Building Designers Gast Architects

At the very least, do full depth cabs above the fridge and a decorative side panel to dress up the view of the fridge from the LR.

Traditional Kitchen by Tampa General Contractors Devonshire Custom Homes

    Bookmark   August 14, 2014 at 4:47PM
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Lisa, you are so helpful! Thanks for helping me get my mind around this!

    Bookmark   August 14, 2014 at 8:55PM
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You're welcome! I'm glad to pay forward the help I received since starting to plan my remodel (too many) years ago.

While looking for inspiration photos for my kitchen, I found a photo taken with a view to the side of a fridge.

Traditional Kitchen by Beaverton Design-Build Firms Cornerstone Builders Inc

I thought it would be helpful to you.

    Bookmark   August 14, 2014 at 10:05PM
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