Range angled in a corner???

numbersjunkieAugust 23, 2013

Has anyone done this - or have any pictures?
I have a very challenging space that I have been struggling with -off and on - for a few years. I want to open up a wall to the LR and lake views but my wall space is very limited. I'm thinking this might work.

I want to do a regular free standing electric range, probably with a microwave above. I will have a bar height wall on the one side to open it up.

Would love to see pics of something similar. Couldn't find anything on Houzz.

Thanks!

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buehl

Analysis of previous layout by Buehl and Layout #2 below:

  • Island...

    • The island is 48" wide and 33" deep with decent aisles on each side.

    • There is no sink in the island b/c it would take too much workspace away from the island making it of little use for prepping. There are 45" of cabinets (+1.5" overhang on each end). 45" - 18" = 27". 27" is far too small a workspace for prepping, etc. In addition, that does not include space on the other side of the sink for landing space. To effectively include a prep sink in an island, the island should be at least 66" wide: 1.5" overhang + 9" cabinet + 18" sink base + 36" cabinet + 1.5" overhang = 66". If you eliminate the 9" on the one side, you can get away with 57"...but 48" is just too narrow. (That 9" though, gives you a "buffer zone" to help keep you from accidentally knocking things off the end of the island.)

    • The island has a 21" trash pullout. You can fit at least two bins. Alternatively, you could make it an 18" trash pullout and change 24" of the 45" of 9" cabinets to a 12" cabinet with a 9"W x 21" D cabinet on the other end. See Layout #2 below.

    • No seats at the island - sorry, but you don't have enough room! You would need a 54" wide aisle to fit seats + counter/cabinets/appliances behind the seats.

Refrigerator wall...

  • There is a 12" Pantry or Utility pullout b/w the refrigerator and the wall. With the exception of true built-in refrigerators, the doors of a refrigerator must stick out past all adjacent items - walls, counters, cabinets, etc. In the case of a wall, if you put 12" cabinet b/w the wall and refrigerator, then it provides enough space to allow the refrigerator door(s) to open fully. You cannot put a refrigerator up against a wall that's deeper than the refrigerator carcass/box.

  • There is a 36"+ wide snack center b/w the refrigerator and the LR doorway. If you're willing to reduce the LR doorway to 48" or even 36", then that snack center can be 48"+ to 63" wide.

  • The MW is in the snack center.

  • If you go with a smaller doorway to the LR, you can have a wide enough snack center to include a sink. B/c of the refrigerator on the one side of the sink, you don't need as much buffer b/w the sink and the edge to keep from knocking things off the end. See Layout #2 below.

Perimeter runs (range & sink walls)...

  • Instead of a blind corner, there's a corner susan (lazy susan or super susan - your choice). IMO, corner susans are a much better use of corner space. With a corner susan, all items are up front for retrieval - simply rotate the susan until the item you want is in front. No need for fancy pullouts that, with few exceptions, have a reputation for not lasting long. If you get a corner susan that has walls that very closely follow the contour of the round shelves, then nothing can fall off (unlike blind corner pullouts).

  • What can you store in a corner susan? Some ideas:

    Bookmark   December 2, 0002 at 12:07AM
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buehl

Analysis of previous layout by Buehl and Layout #2 below:

  • Island...

    • The island is 48" wide and 33" deep with decent aisles on each side.

    • There is no sink in the island b/c it would take too much workspace away from the island making it of little use for prepping. There are 45" of cabinets (+1.5" overhang on each end). 45" - 18" = 27". 27" is far too small a workspace for prepping, etc. In addition, that does not include space on the other side of the sink for landing space. To effectively include a prep sink in an island, the island should be at least 66" wide: 1.5" overhang + 9" cabinet + 18" sink base + 36" cabinet + 1.5" overhang = 66". If you eliminate the 9" on the one side, you can get away with 57"...but 48" is just too narrow. (That 9" though, gives you a "buffer zone" to help keep you from accidentally knocking things off the end of the island.)

    • The island has a 21" trash pullout. You can fit at least two bins. Alternatively, you could make it an 18" trash pullout and change 24" of the 45" of 9" cabinets to a 12" cabinet with a 9"W x 21" D cabinet on the other end. See Layout #2 below.

    • No seats at the island - sorry, but you don't have enough room! You would need a 54" wide aisle to fit seats + counter/cabinets/appliances behind the seats.

Refrigerator wall...

  • There is a 12" Pantry or Utility pullout b/w the refrigerator and the wall. With the exception of true built-in refrigerators, the doors of a refrigerator must stick out past all adjacent items - walls, counters, cabinets, etc. In the case of a wall, if you put 12" cabinet b/w the wall and refrigerator, then it provides enough space to allow the refrigerator door(s) to open fully. You cannot put a refrigerator up against a wall that's deeper than the refrigerator carcass/box.

  • There is a 36"+ wide snack center b/w the refrigerator and the LR doorway. If you're willing to reduce the LR doorway to 48" or even 36", then that snack center can be 48"+ to 63" wide.

  • The MW is in the snack center.

  • If you go with a smaller doorway to the LR, you can have a wide enough snack center to include a sink. B/c of the refrigerator on the one side of the sink, you don't need as much buffer b/w the sink and the edge to keep from knocking things off the end. See Layout #2 below.

Perimeter runs (range & sink walls)...

  • Instead of a blind corner, there's a corner susan (lazy susan or super susan - your choice). IMO, corner susans are a much better use of corner space. With a corner susan, all items are up front for retrieval - simply rotate the susan until the item you want is in front. No need for fancy pullouts that, with few exceptions, have a reputation for not lasting long. If you get a corner susan that has walls that very closely follow the contour of the round shelves, then nothing can fall off (unlike blind corner pullouts).

  • What can you store in a corner susan? Some ideas:

    Bookmark   December 2, 0002 at 12:07AM
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buehl

Analysis of previous layout by Buehl and Layout #2 below:

  • Island...

    • The island is 48" wide and 33" deep with decent aisles on each side.

    • There is no sink in the island b/c it would take too much workspace away from the island making it of little use for prepping. There are 45" of cabinets (+1.5" overhang on each end). 45" - 18" = 27". 27" is far too small a workspace for prepping, etc. In addition, that does not include space on the other side of the sink for landing space. To effectively include a prep sink in an island, the island should be at least 66" wide: 1.5" overhang + 9" cabinet + 18" sink base + 36" cabinet + 1.5" overhang = 66". If you eliminate the 9" on the one side, you can get away with 57"...but 48" is just too narrow. (That 9" though, gives you a "buffer zone" to help keep you from accidentally knocking things off the end of the island.)

    • The island has a 21" trash pullout. You can fit at least two bins. Alternatively, you could make it an 18" trash pullout and change 24" of the 45" of 9" cabinets to a 12" cabinet with a 9"W x 21" D cabinet on the other end. See Layout #2 below.

    • No seats at the island - sorry, but you don't have enough room! You would need a 54" wide aisle to fit seats + counter/cabinets/appliances behind the seats.

Refrigerator wall...

  • There is a 12" Pantry or Utility pullout b/w the refrigerator and the wall. With the exception of true built-in refrigerators, the doors of a refrigerator must stick out past all adjacent items - walls, counters, cabinets, etc. In the case of a wall, if you put 12" cabinet b/w the wall and refrigerator, then it provides enough space to allow the refrigerator door(s) to open fully. You cannot put a refrigerator up against a wall that's deeper than the refrigerator carcass/box.

  • There is a 36"+ wide snack center b/w the refrigerator and the LR doorway. If you're willing to reduce the LR doorway to 48" or even 36", then that snack center can be 48"+ to 63" wide.

  • The MW is in the snack center.

  • If you go with a smaller doorway to the LR, you can have a wide enough snack center to include a sink. B/c of the refrigerator on the one side of the sink, you don't need as much buffer b/w the sink and the edge to keep from knocking things off the end. See Layout #2 below.

Perimeter runs (range & sink walls)...

  • Instead of a blind corner, there's a corner susan (lazy susan or super susan - your choice). IMO, corner susans are a much better use of corner space. With a corner susan, all items are up front for retrieval - simply rotate the susan until the item you want is in front. No need for fancy pullouts that, with few exceptions, have a reputation for not lasting long. If you get a corner susan that has walls that very closely follow the contour of the round shelves, then nothing can fall off (unlike blind corner pullouts).

  • What can you store in a corner susan? Some ideas:

    Bookmark   December 2, 0002 at 12:07AM
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williamsem

Well you're certainly in the right place! That comes up quite a bit, though I don't recall anything very recent.

The search engine here is not good. Hop over to google and paste this in: range in corner site= ths.gardenweb

I know there are a bunch of pics here, there are bound to be some in those threads or click on the images tab on top of google after searching.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2013 at 10:00PM
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lascatx

I have seen over the yearsf years, so it isn't very popular, but it is done. Besides searching here, you might want to try searching Houzz and see if you find any photos there. I haven't done it, but I know from discussions I've seen that depth (range and cabinets on either side matching up) and clearances (cabinet doors, oven doors) are key issues, and there is loss of space behind, so plan carefully and make sure it really works.

I have a friend who has a corner sink she doesn't like because the open space behind the sink is wasted because she is too short to reach it. If I tried a range in a corner, I would look at doing either a tiled niche or a sliding door access to a lazy susan for oils and spices so that corner isn't totally lost. When I find some unusual space like that, work to make it something special instead of dead space.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2013 at 10:15PM
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jakuvall

I've done a few over the years. Can solve counter space issues in difficult kitchens. Have to watch door clearances both for opening wall doors and fith base drawers.
Build. An angle wall-carefully work out dimensions, give a little extra clearance is best. At base use panel with at least a narrow angled filler.
I'll dig up a couple of picks, have shots of at least two of em.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2013 at 10:19PM
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numbersjunkie

I did see some pics on Houzz but they are mostly larger professional type ranges. I wish I had a better idea but right now I don't. I was thinking of moving the refrigerator to the top left and moving the doorway to the DR so it opens just in front of the refrigerator.

Here is a pic of the current layout. The LR/lake view is to the bottom and the DR is on the left. Note the entry door cuts into the counter space at the top right. House is brick so not easy move doors or windows. On the right is a walk in pantry.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

    Bookmark   August 23, 2013 at 10:34PM
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palimpsest

It actually takes up a Lot of room if you analyze it by the square footage you need vs. a conventional position flat against the wall. It can solve layout issues in some kitchens, but limited space is not one of those issues.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2013 at 11:35PM
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numbersjunkie

I figured any corner is mostly wasted space anyway. Hate them. If I move the DR doorway up towards the sink wall and make the doorway to the LR smaller, I figure I have at least 8 ft on each leg. And a good part of the wall that separates the kitchen and LR can be open - no uppers.

Another thing I liked about the idea was that there would still be a half wall between the kitchen and living room - I have a chair on that wall now and would like to keep it so I don't want it totally open.

Here is one of my inspiration pictures.

Contemporary Family Room by Cambridge General Contractors S+H Construction

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 12:20AM
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Cindy103d

Just changing the hinge side on that incoming door would be a huge improvement and should be fairly inexpensive. I like the idea of stove in the corner for your layout.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 6:54AM
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jakuvall

Here are 4 of them. In EVERY case there is a net gain in counter space. As to storage it is at least a wash usually also a net gain, always an improvement in possible cabinet sizes (you have to calculate the storage space not the sq ft of floor.)

I've used these most often in smaller kitchens, sometimes because of immovable architectural elements. When it is the right answer it is far and away the best.

Every one of these clients was presented with at least 3 alternative layouts (5 for two of them) that did not include an angled range. Each initially balked at the idea.

Top -the smallest kitchen I've ever done- fridge wall was moved 11 inches out and gas lines hidden in angled wall.
Next- removed wall to laundry room (relocated)-not installed so only a perpective and plan
No wall work the last two which are much older.

Again- details and install need be handled with care.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 11:26AM
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numbersjunkie

Cindy - I don't think changing the hindges on the door would work very well. The door sits right up against an inside corner of the exterior of the house. I think people would be brushing up against the coarse brick when they tried to enter. Also, that would mean that the cabinets where the door would open would all have to be less than normal depth, and would prevent me from putting the DW there.

Thank you Jackuvall! It helps to see the pictures and diagrams. I have to admit I'm not eager to do anything that would requires so much precision, but I may not have much choice.

If I put the range on the wall between the kitchen and dining room, I lose most of the counter space there and
the counter space winds up on the wall between the kitchen and LR where it isn't really needed. It seems like it would be wasted there. I was hoping to use that wall between the Kitchen and DR for coffee, toaster, and a place where people could make sandwiches - close to the refrigerator.

Does anyone else have any thoughts on what might work in this space? As I said in my initial message, I have been struggling with this for over a year. We are now in a place where updates are sorely needed and I think we have the time/money to tackle this project.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 12:50PM
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jakuvall

yours has options-

how much do you want to open to LR?
how much can you reasonably move the DR door?
how big is pantry?

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 2:25PM
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lavender_lass

I was going to post the range in the corner...but Jakuvall's image is much better!

Here's another option...having a prep sink by the range will give you a 'cooking corner' where you don't have to walk back and forth from sink to range. This would make the other sink your clean up area and easy access to the fridge.

If you keep the wall back a bit from the front of the fridge, you won't have to leave a space (between wall and fridge) for the door to open all the way, when you clean.

Just another idea :) From Farmhouse plans

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 3:08PM
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taggie

Are you trying to preserve seating space for kitchen table? How much of the wall can come down? Would you like an island? If yes, you could do essentially same as jakuvall's and lavender's but with range on the shorter left wall and an 8' island for prep in front of that. There's a lot of empty floor space in the middle of your kitchen otherwise...

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 3:23PM
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numbersjunkie

My DH says neither the wall to the LR or DR is load bearing so I assume I could move the doorway anywhere. BTW, the house is rancher with an unfinished basement so that's a plus as far as moving things.

The pantry is 6 ft wide by 7 ft 4 inches deep. At one point I did consider using the pantry as an entry and moving the door. That would require brick work. If I did that I would also probably make the W/D a stacking unit and grab some of that space. Pretty drastic changes needed to do all of that but maybe worth it if it gets me a decent functional kitchen.

I didn't want to totally open up the kitchen and LR since I want to still be able to keep the chair there.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 3:23PM
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taggie

If you did above but still wanted to keep the wall, you could potentially do so by making it a pony wall and peninsula instead of island.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 3:25PM
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numbersjunkie

Thank you all so much for the ideas! I will study them more closely tomorrow. But to answer a few of your questions - no, I don't want or need a table in the kitchen. An island would be nice if it serves a purpose. I do realize there is a big hole in the middle of the room but I was't sure if it would accommodate an island.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2013 at 11:22PM
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numbersjunkie

jackuval - I really like your first layout, thats exactly what I was thinking. The second one is good - and no corner range to stress over - except for the refrigerator being all alone with no landing area.

lavender lass, your plan would be great also but I would need an island hood there and I don't think I would like how that looks from the LR. More expensive for the hood too.

Can anyone guesstimate how much it would cost to move the doorway so I could utilize the pantry? I'm not too worried about the aesthetics of the house from the exterior since its nothing much to look at now.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2013 at 11:44AM
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vsalz

Here's mine. LOVE it.

There is discussion in this thread about why and specifics on how we planned it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Vsalz kitchen

    Bookmark   August 27, 2013 at 11:32AM
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ControlfreakECS

If you were to consider almost completely opening up the wall to the LR, do you really need wall in the corner and the door to the DR? In Jakuvall's second drawing, if you closed the door to the DR you could put the fridge down in the corner. Which, I think would give you about 36" between fridge and range. Then you might be able to fit a small island parallel to the range with a stool at the LR end. This would provide storage and counter space. A prep sink on that island would make it a very functional prep zone right between fridge and range.

Just throwing thoughts around to see if anything sticks.

    Bookmark   August 27, 2013 at 12:35PM
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pricklypearcactus

One of my favorite inspiration kitchens has a corner range: ni_2006's kitchen.

    Bookmark   August 27, 2013 at 2:44PM
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numbersjunkie

Great pictures - thanks to everyone!

Despite all of the suggestions, I'm still not convinced that there is a way to make this space work well enough to justify the $$$ of a kitchen remodel. I am now considering more drastic changes such as moving doors, windows, possibly even a small addition. This will be costly but maybe worth it in the long run. Fortunately, the house is in a rural area where labor costs are low, and DH can do a lot of the work himself.

If anyone has any suggestions or ideas along those lines, please share!

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 11:57AM
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lavender_lass

More along the lines of what Control is describing...could you do without dining room doorway and just have a pass through? Is there much view on that side? From Farmhouse plans

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 1:53PM
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sena01

If you have shallow cabs near the DR side of the sink wall you may move the entry to DR more to the top. Then the fridge, a 12" cab and range may be on below part, prep space and sink on the LR wall.

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 3:40PM
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lisa_a

Here's an idea for you:

I recessed the fridge into the pantry area and reorganized the pantry shelves inside to make better use of the space.

Next I moved the DR doorway down to the bottom corner. Those two moves provide ample prep space around the range and a way to open up the DR wall without really opening it up ala what shanghaimom did (see the link below to view her gorgeous kitchen).

I added an island - landing space for items coming from fridge and pantry with just enough room for two (cozy) seats at the island, plus more storage. The island is a bit of a barrier island between fridge and range but since most items go from fridge to sink before going to range, it should be okay. btw, that's similar to shanghaimom's layout and she loves the way her new kitchen works.

The aisles widths are counter to counter except between island and fridge. I estimated that the fridge door would extend approx 3" out from the wall (case can be flush, not door) so there should be 42" between fridge door and island counter.

The wall between kitchen and LR can be a half wall as you showed above (great idea).

(I'm hoping that I assumed correctly and that the kitchen dimensions are width (side to side) x depth (top to bottom), not the other way around.)

Here is a link that might be useful: finished! Vintage Cream in the City

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 5:49PM
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numbersjunkie

I don't think it would be feasible to close off the doorway from the kitchen to the DR, especially since I want to keep the LR chair where it is. The shallow counter is an idea to think about. It looks like a great space for a coffee bar. And yes, the space just "needs" an island. But I just don't know about the barrier island - not just for the cook but anyone eating in the DR who needs something from the fridge would have to maneuver around the island.

I would consider an island cooktop. I have one now and it works fine for my style of cooking and I think it would be fine for vacationers. Its more expensive but less than a bump out addition! Maybe that would allow for more options.

FYI there is no view to speak of on the DR side - except for the family. LOL.

PLEASE keep your ideas coming. I am seeing some fresh ideas I had not thought of!

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 7:40PM
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angela12345

Here is an idea taking what lisa did above but moving fridge so it is no longer on other side of barrier island. Beside fridge could be oven & MW, or just MW (I was convinced here on GW that a MW over the stove is a bad bad bad idea to be avoided whenever possible). Also it's a good spot for toaster & coffee maker there. Alternately, the cabinets next to fridge could be 18" deep to allow for 15" bar at island and 45" walkway there. Then it would need to be MW only.

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 11:11PM
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buehl

OK...here's my idea. Apparently, Angie12345 and I were working on a similar idea. There are some differences, though.

(Analysis to follow - I have a couple of chores to do first...be right back!)

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 11:39PM
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numbersjunkie

I'm really excited about the layout angela and buehl suggested. I think the seats at the island can go and maybe put a small sink on that side? How wide do you think the door to the LR needs to be? Maybe the coffee bar there?

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 11:57PM
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numbersjunkie

I'm really excited about the layout angela and buehl suggested. I think the seats at the island can go and maybe put a small sink on that side? How wide do you think the door to the LR needs to be? Maybe the coffee bar there?

    Bookmark   August 28, 2013 at 11:58PM
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buehl

OK...no idea why all that old text is appended to the "Posted by" line. For some reason, GW inserted table html codes, but I deleted them...

Stranger and stranger - each time I "edit" the post, GW inserts the table html in a different place and different text appears on the "Post by" line.

The code is:

to fit seats + counter/cabinets/appliances behind the seats.

This post was edited by buehl on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 0:56

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 12:42AM
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numbersjunkie

Having trouble posting. Is it GW or me????

Have to admit I'm less excited about the layout if there is no sink on the island to service the coffee bar area next to the fridge. In my main home I have silgranit bar sink angled on an outside corner. The sink is 14.25" and we notched the corner cabinet.
Wonder if that could work?

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 11:13AM
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lisa_a

I'm a bit confused. I thought one of your goals was to open up part of the LR wall to improve views to the lake. Unless you remove the uppers in buehl's and angela's plans, you don't achieve this.

So I came up with another idea that puts the fridge closer to the DR, gives you an island with prep sink, has *no* corner cabs and allows you to make that wall between LR and kitchen a half wall for views.

Dotted line for the lower wall denotes half wall as per your inspiration pic above.

The MW can be in a MW drawer or a MW on a shelf above the counter, both to the right of the range so it's also close to the fridge, making it handy for reheating leftovers.

The prep sink can be in the upper or lower corner of the island.

The backside of the island is 15" deep cabs. Or it can be an overhang for seating. There's plenty of aisle space for seating here. Might be nice to have a couple seats so people can sit at the island to visit while you're cooking and enjoy the view at the same time. Even if you opt against seating, I'd leave this aisle fairly generous since it looks like it's a main pathway into your home.

Coffee station can be between fridge and sink (that's where ours is, works great for us).

If you opt for a counter-depth fridge, you'll have a longer counter run for the range. I drew this up with a standard depth fridge at 36" total depth.

Is this getting closer to achieving your goals?

This post was edited by lisa_a on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 1:27

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 6:51PM
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lisa_a

btw, I wouldn't rate your space as challenging. At 182 sq ft, you have a nice sized kitchen. In fact, it's larger than mine (as is your pantry) with the same number of entries into it. Wanna trade? I'd love a few more feet. ;-)

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 7:15PM
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lisa_a

deleted duplicate post.

No idea how that happened, sorry.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Thu, Aug 29, 13 at 19:21

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 7:19PM
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rosie

Apologies everyone for not reading everything, but the information Jakuvall brings from the field in the August 24 post captured my attention. This is basically NEW INFORMATION on an option neglected on this forum, seldom, almost never discussed. Obviously, it should be. .

"Here are 4 of them. In EVERY case there is a net gain in counter space. As to storage it is at least a wash usually also a net gain, always an improvement in possible cabinet sizes (you have to calculate the storage space not the sq ft of floor.)
I've used these most often in smaller kitchens, sometimes because of immovable architectural elements. When it is the right answer it is far and away the best."

The tradeoff to get the benefits of an angled stove is some of the open space in the middle since the is stove, and cook, are pushed out into it.. Many rooms have a bunch of unused central space, though, too small for a genuinely functional island, but...unused and causing extra steps between work areas. Most owners, wishing they had better perimeter function, at some point start thinking about sticking something in the middle.

The island discussed above is large enough to be functional and does not block the refrigerator route. I wonder what it would offer to edge out that great workspace between sink and stove, though, to make schlepping piles of chopped onions, and everything else, over to the stove worth it. Usually islands more than make up for this by allowing the cook to interact with family, monitor children, and watch TV while working, but that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Before going that route, I'd return to examine the benefits of your original idea for an angled stove and start doing some heavy comparisons. If the island still appeals also, perhaps you could even do both. Stick an oven in a creatively shaped island and make it an oven center/secondary work center.

I also think the option of angling the stove should be considered and discussed a lot more in future. Thanks, Jakuvall!

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 8:04PM
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angela12345

Lisa, I like your new plan better than my rendition of your other plan !

Also, I love the island & having stools on the 15" side. Numbers, I think you would really like stools at the island once you had them. I would move the prep sink just a little bit down the island (towards the other sink) so you would have a little landing space to the other side of the sink. And also so the sink isn't exactly right across from the stove (butt to butt if 2 people were working there). Trash pullout next to prep sink where most trash is generated (during prep). On cleanup sink side of prep sink would be good so it can be accessed from prep & stove. Also it's not all that far from cleanup sink in that location.

I would either make the island 3" longer or scootch it 3" towards the living room. 36" is a good width for what is basically only a passageway. And by making it a bit narrower you discourage traffic from going around the cooking side of the island. Others chime in, could it be even narrower than 36" ?

Thoughts on putting DW on left side of cleanup sink ? You currently have it on right, correct ? Is it a problem with main door opening up into the dishwasher door ? If you are right handed, DW is best on left side of sink. It's more efficient With fewer changes of hand during loading (thanks Liriodendron!)

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 8:41PM
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lavender_lass

Lisa- Wonderful plan! The sink on the island makes this plan so functional...and open to the living room. I would try to fit in a few stools, if they would slide under the island, out of the way. Very nice :)

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 9:41PM
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lavender_lass

Lisa- Wonderful plan! The sink on the island makes this plan so functional...and open to the living room. I would try to fit in a few stools, if they would slide under the island, out of the way. Very nice :)

    Bookmark   August 29, 2013 at 9:44PM
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lisa_a

Thanks, Angela and LL!

Angela, I think 36" would work fine since there aren't any cabs opening into the space and, as you wrote, it would discourage traffic cutting through the cooking zone. I didn't want to go smaller than 60" for an island with a prep sink, based on a recent article written by a KD but a few extra inches would sure come in handy.

I debated about moving the DW to the left of the sink, out of the way of the door. Either way, something will be in the way of the doorway. The OP will need to decide which is the better option.

btw, the prep sink could be scooted all the way to the left side of the cab to give more counter inches to the right of it. Still not going to be much but better than having it right to the edge. I'm likely going to have a 60" long island when I remodel and I'm putting the prep sink at the end so that I have as large a prep area as possible next to the sink. I've been working with small prep areas so long that I may be overcompensating. ;-)

Numbers, if you're still considering a corner range, here are two articles written by Kelly Morisseau, CMKBD, about this potentially tricky installation.

Kelly Morisseau: A Design Reader Asks: Help with range in the corner?

Kelly Morisseau: A reader asks: A cooktop or range in the corner?

This post was edited by lisa_a on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 0:20

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 12:14AM
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numbersjunkie

Lisa a - I cant see your latest plan on my kindle (grrr) but I got a quick peek earlier and I liked it. Re the Dw i don't have a preference really but would like it to be near dish storage obviously. Stools would be nice but not a priority.
Cant wait to get more time to study it tomorrow. Also I posted a separate thread about doing a cantilever bump out to get the door away from the cabinets and gain a bit more space. I think it may be feasible from a budget standpoint. Meeting with a contractor next weekend to find out.
Really appreciate everyones efforts here! I was getting so tired of trying to do this on my own. You guys are great!

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 12:48AM
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angela12345

Buehl, what program do you use to draw your plans ? Yours are always so nicely laid out. Plus the type within the plan looks so good. And you do such a nice explanation on why you chose to do certain things. I learn from you every time I see your plans for someone else. I feel like my layouts are usually more like a drive-by. I drop it in and keep running, haha.

Question for you about space between wall or doorway and fridge. You show a 12" pullout. Is 12" the minimum you can use and still have the fridge door open all the way ? Could it be a narrower pullout, or could it just be a 1 to 3" filler there ?

Rosie, very good point ! I need to keep the angled idea more in mind especially in difficult layouts.

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 9:25AM
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numbersjunkie

I really like Lisa's plan, and I agree that 36 inches between the LR wall and island is fine since there are no cabinets there.

This plan would only get better if we are able to add a cantilever bump out on the front. I would love to add some built-ins on the LR wall there like my earlier picture.

In my current kitchen I have my refrigerator up against the DR doorway with only a 9 inch tall cabinet and 2 inches of filler. No issues there. But I also have 44" from the the door of the refrigerator to the edge of the counter across the aisle. Not sure if 2" less would matter.

One other possibility would be to move the DR wall slightly to add width to the room. I think I had figured out that we could easily gain 6" there, but not sure if the DR window would be centered then. Not sure I care.

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 10:47AM
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numbersjunkie

I really like Lisa's plan, and I agree that 36 inches between the LR wall and island is fine since there are no cabinets there.

This plan would only get better if we are able to add a cantilever bump out on the front. I would love to add some built-ins on the LR wall there like my earlier picture.

In my current kitchen I have my refrigerator up against the DR doorway with only a 9 inch tall cabinet and 2 inches of filler. No issues there. But I also have 44" from the the door of the refrigerator to the edge of the counter across the aisle. Not sure if 2" less would matter.

One other possibility would be to move the DR wall slightly to add width to the room. I think I had figured out that we could easily gain 6" there, but not sure if the DR window would be centered then. Not sure I care.

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 11:22AM
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numbersjunkie

Does anyone remember a picture of a kitchen where there was an island that had a tall display type cabinet on the narrow edge? It was higher than bar height and I think you could put a toaster or coffee maker there and not be able to see it from the other side. I was wondering if something like that would work in Lisa's design - bring the island out to the edge of the LR and then there would be on opening on either side of the island into the kitchen. I think there would still be enough wall space in the LR for the chair.

Also check out the DR. Would it look funny if I took a few inches from that room to make the kitchen wider? also seems like a lot of wasted space on the LR end. Wondering if I should consider pushing the table back towards the LR and extend the cabinets all along the top wall, working around the window somehow. I would sure gain a lot more upper cabinet space!

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 11:51AM
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kaysd

I really like Lisa's plan. It is pretty much what I thought you needed as I scrolled down, as far as range placement and island with prep sink. We have a prep sink on the corner of our island, and I like that I can use it from 2 sides.

The kitchen itself is a good size. I don't think it would be worth the cost of moving the dining room wall to gain a few inches. The dining room might look too skinny, and I would hate making the window off center, personally. I like having a separate dining room, especially given the style of your house.

Since you have extra space lengthwise in your DR, rather than losing the wall and running kitchen cabinets into the DR, why not just put more storage in the DR? You have a lot of options for storage around that window at the end of the room: (1) low (32-40" high) units on each side of the window to provide storage, with serving areas on top for meals & parties; (2) tall triangular corner units; (3) tall units that run from the corner almost to the window on each side (the top part could be hutch-like to provide buffet space); (4) No. 3 plus a window seat between the 2 tall units.

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 12:48PM
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lisa_a

Glad the plan works for you, numbers. I would go with a 44" wide doorway, same as you have now. You know it works and 2" less on the range wall won't make a huge difference.

I'm with kay, I wouldn't move the DR wall. I think you could camouflage the slightly off center window with how you hang the drapes but I think it's an expense that doesn't really net you much gain. You'd gain 6" more counter next to the fridge but it doesn't really benefit the rest of the kitchen. I much prefer kay's idea to add storage to the wall on either side of the DR window.

Here are a few photos to help you imagine this:

Traditional Dining Room by San Francisco Interior Designers & Decorators Niche Interiors

This shows a mirror but imagine it as a window instead. The shelf below the window could serve as a buffet.

Traditional Dining Room by Other Metro General Contractors RDM General Contractors

Imagine a window where the doorway is.

Traditional Entry by Phoenix Interior Designers & Decorators Ernesto Garcia Interior Design, LLC

If you're going to spend money on an addition, I think a cantilever addition would be money better spent. How much it costs will depend on how your first floor joists are laid. I wasn't able to do a cantilever addition to my DR because the joists butt up against the foundation instead of resting on it on that side of my house. A cantilever addition would mean tearing into the concrete foundation so there would be no savings over laying a new foundation. I tossed that idea (dang it).

As Kay pointed out above, you do have a nice sized kitchen. If you're trying to gain a larger island, remove the LR wall as you suggested and extend the island 1-2 feet more. I wouldn't make the island as long as the range wall, I think that would make the kitchen seem like it was too much a part of your LR. Plus it would mean that you'd need to create an aisle where the chair and table currently sit, which would be awkward (I'd also move the table to the other side of the chair).

Another idea is to extend the island to the half wall, creating one way in and out of that space. It would be something like this:

Eclectic Kitchen by Birmingham Interior Designers & Decorators Tracery Interiors

I think you'd want to scoot the island to the right a few inches so that you have more room for people to move about in the range area - unless this is a one cook kitchen, then never mind.

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 1:56PM
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numbersjunkie

Yes kaysd, I really like Lisas plan too. I guess I'm just still hating the entry door issue, and wondering if I can somehow fix that too and improve the appearance of the outside of the house. I just posted on the Remodel forum to see what ideas I get there to solve the exterior issues. There are so many creative people here who can visualize things much better than I can!

BTW, you commented on keeping with the style of the home. I am actually trying to alter the style of the home into something that is more suitable for a lake house/vacation home. The decor in the picture was in place when we bought the house from a retired couple 20 years ago. Haven't touched it except for the furniture. While i don't want to stray too far from the traditional style of the house, I would like it to look more like a lake house. When we bought it, we actually talked about vaulting the ceilings, but the house has prefab trusses and it would just be too expensive,

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 2:03PM
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lavender_lass

Have you ever considered putting the entry door into the pantry? Maybe making that a mudroom/entry? It would give you a place for a bench and hooks, still some pantry storage...and with the extra storage in the dining room...I don't think you'd miss it. Then you could close off the door by the dishwasher and have more space. Just an idea :)

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 2:30PM
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numbersjunkie

Yes, lavender lass, I have toyed with that idea and would love a separate entry area. It would, however, require a good bricklayer to make the exterior brickwork look right. I am looking into the whether or not moving the door and patching the brick is feasible.

If I did that, I worry about what to do with the laundry. I do not want to move it to the basement, but have considered getting stacked units. But I haven't been able to figure out how to do all of that and still keep a pantry space. That pantry serves as our owners closet since we rent a lot during the summer.

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 2:44PM
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lisa_a

Here's a possibility if you add a foyer to the front of the house. It would require a new foundation but you're not impacting plumbing so it might be a reasonable option.

The foyer would be a gabled bump-out per my suggestions on your remodeling thread. I would actually bump it out a bit more than my drawing shows but that would have meant drawing beyond the edges of the image. ;-)

I think it would be nice to add a bench and/or table to this space along the lines of these spaces:

Traditional Entry by Boston Architects & Designers design studio M

Traditional Entry by Other Metro Interior Designers & Decorators Lauren Leonard Interiors

Industrial Entry by Boston Interior Designers & Decorators Duffy Design Group

You could add coat hooks on the brick. How cute would something like this be for a lake house?

Entry by Santa Barbara Interior Designers & Decorators Jessica Risko Smith Interior Design

I angled the pantry/utility wall so that you would have a larger entry into the kitchen, routing people away from in front of the DW and sink. It also might give you sneak peeks of the lake from the entry, which would be nice.

There are minor kitchen changes, reflecting comments above, otherwise, the kitchen is the same as B above. I also drew a C plan without the angled utility/pantry wall but I decided to dream big for you on paper. It's not actual money yet, right? ;-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Exterior Remodel Ideas?

This post was edited by lisa_a on Fri, Aug 30, 13 at 17:11

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 4:29PM
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numbersjunkie

Wow lisa a!!! That entry addition would be so perfect! Love your pics too!

I just don't know if we could make the roof lines work. We have issues in our main home from rooflines that come together so I know DH would never allow it. I think the only way to do it would be to raise the entire roof line on the gable side. Probably way to expensive, but I may ask the contractor about it.

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 5:15PM
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lisa_a

You're welcome!

A gable entry would be so cute but I understand that the tricky roof lines might rule that out. You could also consider a shed roof something like this:

Farmhouse Exterior

Maybe you could also put the entry a step below the main house to gain a bit more head room? It would mean a step going into the main house, too. Dunno if this helps with roof line issues and ceiling clearances or if it brings up a whole other set of issues. This is way out of my depth but I'm sure a contractor will have ideas of how to solve this for you.

    Bookmark   August 30, 2013 at 5:49PM
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lisa_a

Saw this recessed bookcase while dreaming away at houzz.com and thought it might give your LR half wall a bit of storage without requiring a large footprint:

Transitional Bedroom by Minneapolis Interior Designers & Decorators Martha O'Hara Interiors

It wouldn't need to be more than 9" deep to store books, photos, and knickknacks. If you recessed the bookcase into the wall, you'd gain 3" so that wall would only be about 6" deeper than it is now. It's not quite the same as your inspiration photo above but it's a close facsimile, IMO.

    Bookmark   August 31, 2013 at 2:25PM
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lavender_lass

With your roof lines, I would try something like this (Lisa's very nice plan) with extra storage in dining room and along half wall of living room (as shown above).

Making the current door a window, would give you a little more light, but also a view of the porch, to see who is at the door. If you rent out the house at times, I'm sure you could find another place to store things, besides the current pantry....especially with the money you would save not bumping out! :) From Farmhouse plans

    Bookmark   August 31, 2013 at 3:10PM
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lisa_a

Or perhaps this would work as a simpler entry addition that still retains the utility/pantry space:

You might be able to extend the gable roof over the new entry with less than a foot loss in height (your roof pitch looks to be 4/12, a 2 foot extension would mean 8" drop in height).

Or perhaps you alter the roof pitch to be more like the roof over this entry:

Eclectic Exterior by Mississauga Architects & Designers New Age Design

Or maybe you can add an angled gable like this:

Traditional Entry by Shallotte Home Builders Blue Sky Building Company

I also found this image that shows a gable next to a gable, one higher than the other:

Traditional Exterior by Mountain View General Contractors Harrell Remodeling

You could easily work within your existing footprint, with some concessions, but don't let what seems like a roof challenge stop you from exploring your options of an entry addition if this is what you addresses your concerns.

    Bookmark   August 31, 2013 at 4:24PM
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lavender_lass

Lisa- That's nice! No expensive addition and still keeps the pantry and doesn't crowd the dishwasher. Great idea :)

    Bookmark   August 31, 2013 at 5:18PM
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numbersjunkie

Lisa I've fallen in love with the angled entry picture you posted and I think that would work great on the interior space too. I have home Design software and been playing with it to try to get a 3d view but the rooflines are not working right. GRRR.
Anyway, just wanted to say thank you for all your efforts. I'm hoping to meet with the contractor next week to see how expensive this will be. Fingers crossed.

    Bookmark   September 1, 2013 at 12:05AM
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lisa_a

You're welcome! Good luck next week!

(thanks, LL.)

    Bookmark   September 1, 2013 at 1:14AM
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numbersjunkie

We are back from the lake and the meeting with the contractor did not go as I had hoped. The angled entry door concept is off the table for a number of reasons. And although moving the door will likely cost more than I had hoped, I think we will likely move the door so that it opens into what is now my pantry/owners closet. So while I was at the lake I double and triple checked all of my measurements and came up with a plan based on the new door opening. I'm not terribly excited about it, but it has it's advantages - and disadvantages.
Since I am no longer (currently) considering an angled range (too much precision scares me!), I stared a new thread. Of course if I keep changing my plan the topic line of that thread will be outdated soon as well! But please see the link below for the âÂÂnewâ layout idea, and tell me what you REALLY think. I really value all of the input I have gotten and ask you all to please bear with me as I fumble through this process!

Here is a link that might be useful: New thread

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 11:17AM
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angela12345

We have a rental beach house. I would definitely not want to give up the owners storage if there was any way possible to get around it.

Would the below be an option ? This is just for an idea. Door could swing either direction (left or right). You could use more or less of your utility space by bringing the new wall more or less in. You could have a sidelight beside door (as shown), or on 2 sides of door, or no sidelight.

I am showing this with deeper cabinets on sink wall even with the box of the fridge to give it a built in look.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 1:51PM
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numbersjunkie

That is an interesting option. Something to ponder. But we probably would not have enough brick to rebuild the alcove area and would have to use siding there. I worry that would look really strange.
BTW I discovered that the 14 ft room dimension is actually 13'8". Wish I had erred in the other direction.
I think we will be OK with losing the owners closet in that location. There is a coat closet by the lakeside door in the LR that is narrow but extra deep, and it has a panel inside that opens to the area over the basement stairwell. DH thinks the space there would work fine as an owners closet. I would just have to store the vaccum in the laundry area. If we stack the W/D we would have the space. BUT, there is still no room in the proposed kitchen plan for pantry storage, not even a tall pullout. That worries me.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 2:21PM
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angela12345

Here is another option. Small window where door used to be so you can see who is at the door when you are in the kitchen. Renter pantry & lockable owner pantry. Room for an entry table in the entry hall. Stack the W/D. I have the hall there at 36" to allow the most possible room in the laundry closet, but it could easily be wider if desired. Almost all full size front load/stackable W/D units are 27" wide, so you would still have room for vacuum, about 20" wide.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 3:16PM
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lavender_lass

I like the island plan, but i also like this plan of Buehl's with a slight modification. The microwave could be over the range (as you originally wanted) or under counter by the fridge...with prep sink looking out to the view. Great place for coffee area, too :) From Farmhouse plans

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 3:17PM
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angela12345

Here is another idea, leaving the laundry closet as is. Giving you a renter's pantry and a lockable owner's storage.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 3:41PM
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lavender_lass

What I like about Buehl's plan (since you aren't moving the door) is that the main traffic pattern is from the front door to the family room/hall, or the family room to dining room. The main cooking/baking area is protected by the island/cart...and easy access to fridge and water, without interrupting the cook.

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 9:54PM
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buehl

Edit away Lavendar_Lass...that's what the layouts are for! :-)

You're spot on about protecting the Prep & Cooking Zones - the last thing you need is a crowd of people traipsing through those work areas! Beach rentals often have a crowd staying there - so accept that and plan for it.

While those zones are protected, others can help (or kibitz) from the two sides of the island not in the main work area.

Click on the picture to see it bigger.

Zone map:

Click on the picture to see it bigger.

Hmmm....you can't read the labels - especially the text at the bottom left. Here it is:

If you can "steal" space from the LR and you don't mind losing the chair space (in the LR), consider a raised pony wall b/w the kitchen and LR with a counter that's 12" deeper than the pony wall for bar-height (42" tall) seating on the LR side.

If you don't want to lose the chair, then just have a raised pony wall with a shallow counter to act as a "pass through" to the LR for snacks, etc. It will give you space for an outlet on the wall and hide any snack "mess" or part of a coffeemaker from the LR.

The pony wall won't interfere with the view/light. (Nor will the seats at the counter in the LR.)

    Bookmark   September 11, 2013 at 11:30PM
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