I'll bet you think I want help with my layout, don't you...

deedlesAugust 9, 2012

...don't you, don't you now?

I do.

I'm not so vain as to think that I'm the layout queen :>P

sooo...would you all take a gander at what I've patched together in paint on top of our antiquated house design software plan?

Salient points:

1. The only window is over the sink as shown in the layout.

2. Main entry is through the kitchen to the rest of the house. We have no "front" door d/t how the house is situated. I say this to head off the "is there room for an island" question, as the floor needs to be open for traffic flow.

3. We want the (south) wall between the kitchen/dining porch open as much as possible as the best view of the river is that way.

Also, after walls went up on the bedroom side of the house (not visible here), I became aware of the need to not 'wall off' these main living areas from each other. AND, after seeing bunches of references to natural light in various GW threads, I realized this kitchen is d.a.r.k. with only a west window/deep roof overhang, so figured opening the wall on the south could only help with the overall light in the place. It's a pretty dark, shady house overall.

4. My concern with this plan is that the fridge is about 10' away from the sink (not that I couldn't use the exercise) but if I pull the wall behind the fridge into the kitchen more, I lose precious cab space by the stove. If I move the fridge to the left of the sink, it seems to bork my prep area/counter space over there, esp since the fridge would be next to a wall (door clearance yada, yada). I thought of putting the fridge to the right of the stove but then I have what? A wall and no storage. And the fridge still 10+'away from the sink.

5. There is a step down into the dining porch of about 6-7" AND the ceiling starts at 7 1/2' and slopes down to 7' at the outside wall. Kitchen ceiling is 9'. This makes opening the whole space into one out of the question, I've been informed and I guess that makes sense.

Does anyone see any possibilities that I don't see?

I suggested to DH that we could run cabs on the south wall instead of the open railing and put the sink there but he nixed that idea. Wants it as open as possible with a rustic-y cedar railing type thing. I could lean on him in that direction but I'm not sure it would gain me a whole lot by introducing another corner in the equation.

Please help.

p.s. to anyone that paid some attention to my prev. layout. Yes, there used to be an entirely different layout UNTIL I got freaky about the dark factor and the closed off factor. That's when the idea of opening the wall up to the porch took shape.

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I like it! It's not as functional as your earlier layout, but I would rather have the light...and that view! I think it looks like the kind of kitchen you would find in an older house, so it seems appropriate. Especially with your vintage range :)

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 11:27AM
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Yes, I guess I could enjoy the view whilst walking back and forth between the fridge and sink...

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 11:33AM
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You don't have all the dimensions, so I can't tell if this will work, but can you:

- move the arched doorway a hair to the right
- scootch the range in the same direction, but keep it at least a foot from the inside corner so you can put a lazy susan there
- put a CD fridge where the 27" cab is
- possibly shrink the sink just a little bit
- switch the DW to the other side of the sink (optional)
- put a prep sink where you currently have the fridge

Bad walkpaths through main traffic arteries are not just about extra exercise. They're about dropping boiling water on someone's lap and saying "excuse me" fifty times a day.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 11:39AM
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1. Arched door is framed in already and drywalled/finished on the other side. So, ah.. nope. There is exactly 28 1/2inches to the left of that arch. Is there a CD fridge less than that? I can look. Wouldn't the open door block the doorway though and isn't that bad, too?

2. The 38" range can scootch anywhere at this point.

3. Already own the ungodly expensive, impulse copper sink and 30" is the smallest cab it fits.

4. DW can be switched if that helps the layout.

5. Prep sink where the fridge is? Isn't my kitchen too small to need a prep sink? I suppose I'd have some storage around that, though. I've never had 2 sinks. Not sure I'd know what to do with 2 sinks. Wouldn't that be another version of the walking back and forth to the fridge only from a different orientation? Or what am I obviously missing here? Sorry this layout stuff hurts my brain.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 12:08PM
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I had to guess at a number of your dimensions.

I propose making a U-shape by adding a peninsula with the sink coming off the LR wall:

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 12:33PM
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Angie: That's interesting. I've never considered that type of layout. I've always struggled not 'putting my furniture against the walls" so this is completely different to me. Where do the dishes go from the dw, in your thoughts? Like, are you saying no cabs over that sink area which I'm assuming you are? And what is between the fridge and pantry? (which I like, btw)

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 12:46PM
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You are correct that I was envisioning no cabs above the sink, just a counter-height peninsula. I was envisioning uppers on the LR wall, which is where I would put the dishes.

The area between the pantry and fridge is a wonderful, sunlit place to do some food prep. (It is also plunk space for the fridge, of course.) Someone will rightly point out that you kinda need a source of water to do proper prep. You could put a small prep sink in that space, if you wish.

BTW, I believe Marcolo's earlier assertion of a need for a prep sink was more about having access to a sink from the range that does not cross your main-entrance traffic pattern. My design takes care of that, so you could get away with a single sink, but then there is not a sink near that lovely stretch of counter under the window....

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 12:55PM
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If it's just you and DH most of the time...and you're the main cook...I don't think you'll have any problem with your layout.

If you both like to cook together or you entertain frequently, then this layout would be more hazardous. If all else fails, yell PASTA COMING THROUGH, when you carry a boiling pot, from the range to the sink :)

Angie's plan is very nice, too. It just depends on whether you want a more open plan or more of a closed off work area. Both have benefits...it just depends on what you prefer. Angie's is more efficient, but I tend to get a little claustrophoic in small spaces, so I'd rather carry the pasta across the walkway...but either way, you keep your view!

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 1:19PM
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Lav: It will be just 2 of us most of the time and when there's more, there is a lot more so it's a cluster no matter which kitchen I've ever had. I'm hoping people will gravitate to the porch and LR... ha!

Angie: I'm going to play around with your idea if only so I make sure I've left no stone unturned. It does have possibilities, though. I like that people could get to the fridge without getting in my space too much.

Anyone else see anything different in this space?

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 1:43PM
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We went from a square kitchen more like your plan to one with aisles and more cabinets like Angie's plan. I was really nervous I'd find it crowded and obstructed feeling, but in the end the increase in cabinets and counter space was worth it, and it feels fine and much nicer to cook in. However, that's a totally personal decision. One big factor is to look at how much counter space you have now, and compare keeping in mind whether you feel your current kitchen has enough counter space or not. I think the biggest mistake is to assume you'll use the new kitchen in a really different way than the current kitchen (e.g. "I'll just need to keeps the counters cleared off like I've never done before").

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 1:44PM
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Gregincal: Do you have a before and after pic perchance? I'd love to see them. What made you change to the different layout?

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 2:08PM
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If the sink in Angie's plan were a prep sink, then your big sink could go back under the window, the pantry could go away (storage found elsewhere) and that stack could be a dish hutch with DW below.

In any case, there is almost no such thing as a kitchen too small for a prep sink. I've seen tiny galley kitchens that became useful only when a prep sink was added. It's layout that matters, not size.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 2:15PM
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deedles we also have the plan similar to Angie's plan. I love the sort of horse shoe kitchen It is good to work in. And with just a step or two you could plunk, love that word LOL, on top of DW counter. I have never had a prep sink either and can not envision having to take care of yet one more sink to scrub. Like two in a master bath.

You might be a bit tight with Angie's plan. Our kitchen width is 12'6".

We also have the one blind cabinet in our lay out open like Angie showed and it is great and I would put a false door if possible through that book case into your other blind corner for hidden storage or a safe. Would be a a little unhandy to get into but you do not access a safe all that often.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 2:24PM
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As I'm playing with this I'm finding it a bit tight what with the 4' minimum inside the U and leaving at least 36", preferably more around it. I know what DH is going to say, too.... *eyeroll*

I have one too dang many doorways...
Seems like there is some possibility to this layout in some form though...I'm liking that fridge removed from the prep/cooking area and as I'm making soup right now I realize that I wouldn't mind my sink and stove being a bit closer together. I get sick of walking back and forth and wouldn't mind 'turning'.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 3:03PM
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Both layouts would work for me, Deedles. Like Lavender, I like the comfortably open old fashioned layout and it's probably the direction I'd choose. The distance between refrigerator and sink just wouldn't be an issue. My indoor stride is about 2-1/2', a whole 4 steps forward. Plus, I can be very bossy and yell "pasta coming through" in a way no one'd be allowed to ignore, so that wouldn't be a problem unless we had little ones under foot...not infrequently.

I am, however, seriously wondering where I (the main cook) would end up doing most of my prepping, between stove and fridge (so right there!) or by the sink with water and window. I'd want to tack that down and make one spot so nice that it was inevitable, including getting some of the uppers out of my face at that spot. If I chose the sink side, I'd put the DW on the left of the sink and slide the sink over that way as far as I could so I had a really nice work counter on the stove end. Importantly, that would also allow me to stand **farther from the doorway.** As it is, the stove counter's directly behind most of that work area there--the cook'd be interrupted every time someone wanted to come through. Busy cook, multiple cooks, and people needing to go in and out a lot frequently happen together, so that'd be problem to solve definitively before it was created.

If I chose the stove side of the kitchen, no window but the main cooking'd be out of traffic most of the time, and that might be worth anything. I'd get rid of some uppers where I like to stand, of course, and also likely move the hutch elsewhere to make the counter 3-9" longer. Each inch would be valuable.

Angie's plan has the wonderful virtue of totally dedicating a main cooking space out of traffic that would allow me to work facing the river and people. Except that just looking at this one I know I'd put cleanup on the window counter and create a really spacious cooking area out of the cockpit--with prep sink so it was self contained. I don't like cleanup, so I make sure that goes very fast and I wouldn't be standing out there in the walkway for long periods. While I was cooking guests could hang and chat face to face from the outside of the counter. Even if it filled up the space more, this might well be a way to go if I expected to have friends and family in fairly often.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 3:10PM
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This was fun but frustrating to play with. I have no idea if the ideas here are of any help to you. I tried to come up with a way to eliminate the room sized emptiness in the center. This is the best I could do, and it is only a possibility if the railings can come down and the wall on the left can be shortened.

Interesting that a few measurements and windows and doors can so limit possibilities.

I am curious to see what you will finally come up with.

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 3:43PM
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I'll comment on the recent comments and layout (thank you!) when I get home. In the meantime, I posted this fuzzy drawing that I made quickly while out at the house.

I took the hutch out to make more room as suggested but I have to find a place somewhere in this house for that hutch. It's the ONE heirloom piece of furniture in my family. My beloved Grandma inherited it and now I have it. I'd really be heartbroken to have to give it up for lack of room.

Anyway, on the window wall I put a 9" broom closet (maybe?)and an all fridge-30", that Sidekick that someone on here has and likes. Then on the other end I stuck freezer drawers with a nice chunk of counter and a little prep sink or bar sink maybe?

I don't know if there is enough room in the sink/stove hole for the DWD to slide out and not get in my way at the sink, or maybe it'd be perfect to load as it would slide right up to the sink. Have to check clearances on this.

I turned Angies layout since there is more room in that direction. The sink orientation means I'm still looking out the window...just from 8' away, lol.

Just playing around. DH said, "what'cha doin'?"

"Oh, just fooling around".


    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 4:52PM
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In my case I actually changed the shape of the kitchen due to relocating a laundry, so I'm not sure the specifics are helpful. It was more just the feeling of going from an traditional open square kitchen to a design more focused on aisles between counters. I was afraid I'd dislike it, but so far I don't. I felt like the whole central area was kind of wasted in my old kitchen. However, it's quite possible somebody else would feel the new layout too constricting (I actually have to dodge a little around an island to go from the refrigerator to the sink).

Here is a link that might be useful: My kitchen thread

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 4:57PM
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What about something like this?

From [Cottage house plans](https://picasaweb.google.com/113704953485102437421/CottageHousePlans?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPLFkNLC2c3TDQ&feat=embedwebsite)

It still gives you the open feeling in the middle of the room, but you have more prep space (and a sink) by the range :)

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 5:26PM
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Lav: It's just that fridge and big sink on that wall seem to eat up all the countertop. Plus, the fridge needs like, 4" minimum clearance against a fixed wall...
I wish that wall were a little longer cause I'd love to have the fridge to the left of the sink like that. I always seem to want to prep to the left of the sink. I don't know if I can change that habit, can I? I get having a prep sink closer to the stove, but this copper sink is made for prep with the cutting board that sits on the ledge and the drain tray. Not to mention that after what that thing cost, DH will probably throw up if I mention getting another sink, lol.

Bellsmom: I was told that having the whole wall open is a problem with structural stuff. That's why DH wants a rustic railing with upright beams in part of the opening. I can't tell exactly but the island makes the walk around about 30"... seems too close to the step down for safety?

Rosie: Your words are food for thought. I am definitely a sink/window prepper. I tend to live in front of the sink for some reason. Don't really see myself doing too much between the fridge and stove (in the original layout)
And, as I said above, I tend to want to work to the left of the sink. Angie's idea is very appealing though. I like the smaller area to cook in and less walking around. I like the fridge out of the main area, so anyone can get something without, 'excuse me'. The one thing DH does is make adult beverages (killer old fashioneds for those familiar with Wisconsinites) and we're always in each others way when that happens. I thought a bar sink over by the window could double as a kind of prep sink and I'd have mondo storage over there, too. But, it does close up the room somewhat, at least for traffic, but maybe not in a bad way.
Idaho: thanks for the info and I was kinda thinking that empty corner could be a safe cubby or something like that. Keep our Cracken in there, lol.

Marcolo: are you saying to leave the fridge as it is in Angies plan? I'll have to play around with that configuration, too. Thank you...

    Bookmark   August 9, 2012 at 7:00PM
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How about putting the fridge close to the archway for groceries plunking and the DW close to the DR for easier cleanup steps? This still involves a prep sink (be armed with the (*much* lower than your big sink) price) and a lower cab run instead of the left railing discussion with DH. Lots of prep room by the window but also works for cleanup.

I'm not sure if the measurements work in this idea but I tried to get the proportions per your layout at the top of this thread.


    Bookmark   August 10, 2012 at 3:07PM
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I like Angie's layout but with a prep sink under the big window so DH can make fabulous cocktails for you over there, without getting in your way while you are in the peninsula. Having the pantry space, extra cabinets, and extra counters would be great ! And it utilizes the big wasted space in the middle of the kitchen. I don't think 48" between stove and peninsula is too narrow, but rather just right. When you turn the peninsula the other direction, it cuts off that window side of the kitchen from the rest of the space.

I don't think 36" is too narrow for the walkway between the peninsula and the opening going onto the porch/dining area. Hallways are often 36-42" wide and they are closed in with walls. The 36" here will *feel* like more because it will be open view.

On Angie's plan, I would also suggest to have a more narrow cabinet for trash where the dishwasher currently is, scoot the sink to the left next to the trash cabinet, then put the DW on the right side of the sink, with a very narrow cabinet next to the DW if there is enough space (to store cookie sheets and other vertical stuff). This would get the DW closer to the wall cabinets on the LR wall where most likely you will store all of your dishes ... easier for unloading dishes with the DW close to where the stuff goes. Also, an open DW door wouldn't be blocking the access into the peninsula area.

This kitchen would be very effiicient to work in with just one person. But also I can see 4-5 people working together easily ... 1-2 at prep sink under window, 1 at stove, 1 at main sink, 1-2 at counter on the LR wall. Clearing dishes from the dining table would be super easy right onto the peninsula, then into the dishwasher they go.

What do you have planned for corner next to desk on the porch/dining ? Could the antique hutch go there ?

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 1:44AM
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OOOoooooh! I'm pretty excited... okay I'm SUPER excited!!
I broached the whole different layout idea to DH giving full credit to the GW gang and he like, right way, saw the sense in it and he likes it and even improved upon it so the hutch can fit! And the prep sink!

I am SO glad I put it out there and I am so thankful for everyone that took the time to comment and offer thoughts. I've read over and over everyone's ideas and comments and rationale and tried to 'see' what was being explained to me and it seems there was a piece or part from everyone that made sense to the whole idea, if that makes sense to you all. Thank you all, I truly mean it. It's just a kitchen I know, but it is FINALLY starting to feel like this kitchen (and house) is going to be fun to live in and that what we're going to do with it makes sense. And today that makes me feel kinda happy.

Okay, so I'm going to draw this out and then I'll post it.

Should I start a different thread with the new layout or just keep going on this one?

!!! :)

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 1:07PM
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Deedles- I saw your new thread and I thought I'd just post this idea over here, instead. You had said you did not like the fridge crowding the window...so I thought I'd try this idea, too. If you don't like it, just disregard :)

From [Cottage house plans](https://picasaweb.google.com/113704953485102437421/CottageHousePlans?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCPLFkNLC2c3TDQ&feat=embedwebsite)

Oh, and that funny thing by the desk is supposed to be a big plant! LOL

    Bookmark   August 11, 2012 at 11:22PM
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Lav: I had messed around with that layout too, but what I end up doing is walking, walking, walking, which I'm real sick of. I'd end up prepping to the left of the big sink and then I'd be back to the traffic path in my area. I'm really liking this little cooking 'cockpit' U shaped thing more and more. I do like your plant, tho :P

    Bookmark   August 12, 2012 at 2:57AM
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I *always* vote for continuing the thread where you started it rather than starting a new one.

Mostly because I am old-school on this forum, from back when a thread used to drop off the last page and *poof* it was gone forever. Even if you had the link you could not see the old thread, it was deleted from the server. Plus, this forum moves so fast and threads drop off the last page soooo fast. Even now you can only access the old threads if you have the link, so that resource is no longer available to anyone new. Plus, I think it is better to continue the thought process in one thread.

Can't wait to see your plans !

    Bookmark   August 16, 2012 at 3:09PM
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Deedles- I'm glad you like the plant! LOL

    Bookmark   August 16, 2012 at 3:53PM
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