New kitchen layout

shell820810July 14, 2014

Building a new house, so pretty flexible with layout. Can I have your opinions on work triangle etc. Measurements are in mm.

Fridge beside patio doors on left hand side or along right hand side wall. Or put second sink at patio door?

Can change island shape, orientation etc.
Sink in island, either opposite cooker/hob or nearer to fridge as in drawing?

Can also move the pantry door

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Is this a one sink kitchen? As shown, I think your work triangle is too large (assuming the fridge is by pantry - or is that double ovens???). If you move the fridge to the outer wall, you will have a barrier island (island blockade between sink and fridge).

Those sitting at the island will be facing your pantry. That's ok, if that's what you intend.

What is the area / door in the bottom corner by the pantry? garage entrance?

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 6:40PM
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Completely open to suggestions!

At the minute it's a one sink kitchen but if you can find somewhere for a second that would be fine. (Great even!)

Fridge is by the pantry. Oven is under hob.

Top right door by pantry is into utility and outside. (Door A for reference).

Bottom right door by store is to hallway/front door.

The kitchen layout is just a rough mockup the architect dud with original house plans. Not a kitchen designer.

I had thought of putting fridge by patio door and turning the island 90 degrees so sink is directly opposite hob. Or have upside down L shape island.

Or fridge in top right corner behind door A,though this will be very cramped next to window.

I want a minalmist kitchen. I think I have a decent size pantry, and a separate utility/laundry room so apart from floor to ceiling larder type units along pantry wall, I intend the rest to be under counter units only.

Sorry if the terminology is a bit off. I am in the UK.

This post was edited by shell820810 on Mon, Jul 14, 14 at 19:02

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 7:00PM
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This has to be an architect's kitchen plan because - to be blunt - it's awful.

Here's a quick revision:

I flipped the door from the side entry (where does this lead?) so that it doesn't swing up against kitchen cabs. I moved the fridge to the range wall, reduced the windows (do you have a view out this way?) to make room for the fridge, moved the main sink and DW off the island to the left wall, flipped the island 90 deg, added a prep sink and room for 3 seats.

The only dimension I could read was the width of the room, which I converted to feet and inches. If you want more feedback and usable lay-outs, you need to provide all necessary dimensional information, preferably in inches, not mm.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 7:13PM
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Thanks Lisa_a

Definitely thinking along similar lines as I was. I think I have addressed most of your points above. I will post more dimensions tomorrow, I am on my phone now.

Just to check - I am losing cupboard space along pantry wall to make more room for island?

And also worktop space is well reduced due to additional sink and relocation of fridge. Is there enough?

Some quick dimensions:

Left hand side, top corner to patio door, 102 inches

Right hand side, bottom point of pantry door to bottom corner of store,126 inches

Back wall, from left to right

37in of wall
35in of window
70in of wall (cooker)
35in of window
35in of wall

Length of room to fireplace 304in

I think we recess fireplace into wall so kitchen table can move further into living area.

This post was edited by shell820810 on Mon, Jul 14, 14 at 19:40

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 7:22PM
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I'm afraid Lisa is not wrong. It's pretty awful. Picture yourself taking food from the fridge or pantry. Where are you going to put it? There's no landing spot. Your work surfaces for prepping are on the other side of the room behind the barrier island. Lisa's plan is much better.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 7:24PM
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If you were willing to the slider patio door with a single glass door, either with sidelights, something like this:

Traditional Entry by Greenville Interior Designers & Decorators Linda McDougald Design : Postcard from Paris Home

Or a glass door with a single sidelight, something like this:

Contemporary Entry by Mercer Island Architects & Building Designers knowles ps

or just go with a single glass door and add windows elsewhere along that wall, you would gain wall space, perhaps enough to place the fridge, DW and sink on that wall. That would free up cabinet space on the range wall. You could add more windows on the sink wall to make up for the reduction of light.

Have you considered orienting the table perpendicular to how it's shown on this plan? You've got the room to do that and still have room to expand the table to 101" long with adequate aisles behind the diners. How long is your table?

If you do that, then you can expand the island to add back cabinet storage. Here's what I'm envisioning:

The island is quite large but since I curved the edge, you should be able to clean the center of it without climbing on top of it - unless you're quite vertically challenged, ;-) You may have room for 4 seats, not 3 as I show (I didn't bother to calculate the length of that seating overhang). You have base cabs facing the range, a 24" wide cab facing the pantry and a 30" wide cab facing the fridge. The X in the center denotes void space but you could always add a cabinet to store items rarely used.

The island shape would be something similar to this:

Traditional Kitchen by Denver Photographers Paul Kohlman Photography
but slightly deeper.

As for whether you will have enough storage, only you can answer that. Have you measured and tallied what you need to store and made notes of where it should be stored? If not, you should do that before you dive deeper into kitchen design.

I added a hutch type cabinet between kitchen and DR table. You can use this as a bar or buffet when you entertain.

Oops, I forgot to include a few more dimensions. I allowed 44" between table and LR, room for a 48" wide table, 68" between table and island (NKBA recommends a min of 60" between back to back diners), a 48" wide aisle between island and range and 25.5" depth for cabs and counter along range wall. You can adjust the table closer to the island or the island closer to the range wall: you've got the luxury of having the space to do that.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 9:06PM
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I like Lisa's plan much better. Next, work on eliminating the small wall that creates the angled corner between family room and dining table. I think it will be better without this small divider.

    Bookmark   July 14, 2014 at 10:44PM
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Thank you so so much for your help so far.

I have a new picture, with measurements. Some of the above measurements may be wrong as I was taking the outside wall measurements. My new measurements might be an inch or two off, I was try to work it off a scale drawing.

I have moved the fireplace flush to the wall, so there is no chimney breaking up the room.

The only comment I would make is that I would prefer to keep the patio doors the size they are (7ft). I have already reduced them from 10ft to 8ft to 7ft!

Happy to move other things, like windows, pantry door, table orientation etc

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 4:57AM
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oops just realised the main measurements need the decimal place moved! x10 for some reason!

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 5:11AM
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The fireplace is in a really weird spot. It's not in the dining room and it's not in the living room. It's just sort of stuck in a corner. Could it be back to back with the one on the other side of the wall so it's more in the dining room?

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 7:04AM
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Your kitchen layout has what is common in new construction.... too many interruptions. You have very little wall space.

Reconsider the slider. Exactly why won't a single french door work?

Consider closing up the door to the laundry and move the door to the pantry so you can create a wall of uninterrupted space.

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 7:18AM
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I want the fire place more into the living area part, which was why it was initially facing in that way. The flue/pipe has to run up the same chimney as the one on the other side of the wall, but if I put it back to back it is going to sit out into the kitchen again, and probably be an obstruction.

The lines across the living area are just notation for steel beams needed for construction, they are not walls etc, so i can easily have an armchair/sofa sitting alongside the fire as it is at the minute

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 7:20AM
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Unfortunately the door to the laundry cannot be moved. This is to the back door. I can move the pantry door, no problem.

A single french door will work, but I just prefer to have an more open look.

Given that I have a walk in pantry, and island work area/storage, I was under the impression that there was sufficient wall area for what I need?

But definitely open to suggestions.

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 7:32AM
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Hows this looking? Combining A and B above, and tidy up living area a bit?

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 8:03AM
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whats your thoughts on having the bottom of the window flush with the worktop.....

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 9:26AM
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You can have an open look with windows to the counter as shown by shell8 above and a single patio door. You lose only the bottom half of the second door's viewing area, which usually doesn't show much except decking or grass. I would do this in a minute. It could be STUNNING if you run the windows to the counter.

Another suggestion I strongly recommend: move the pantry door more or less to the center of the pantry. Then you can put shallow (8" or so) floor to ceiling shelves behind the door. You lose no storage space and gain a huge amount of wonderful accessible shelf space. I would also consider double doors into the pantry since they would each be only 15" or so wide instead of a single 24" or so wide door.

I do notice you will have almost no room for upper cabs. Does that bother you? The big pantry adjacent might make it more acceptable.

This post was edited by Bellsmom on Tue, Jul 15, 14 at 10:17

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 10:13AM
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Just considering the upper cabinets at the minute! I would be used to having cups/glasses up high. Anything else could be in lower cupboards. I suppose I would get used to it.

Did consider centering the pantry door, hadnt thought of double doors. Nice idea.

The idea of the double patio doors was to open up the whole area in the summer so that the patio can be an extension of the kitchen for entertaining etc.

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 11:25AM
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would it be worth losing the two windows from the back wall? or at least one of them, at the cooker?

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 11:55AM
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Is this a wood-burning fireplace or a gas-burning fireplace? If the latter, could you move it to the bottom wall - where you have windows - and have it vent directly outside? That placement would make more sense.

You show a sliding patio door but from what you've written, it sounds like you want double French doors so that both can be open. Is that accurate?

Next question. You wrote that the hallway to the left of the DR leads to the conservatory. Can you add additional exterior doors to the patio here? That would allow you to open up the house more but gain more wall in the kitchen.

Another alternative is to do a set of narrower French doors that together open up for a 48" to 60" opening, like this:

Traditional Entry by Charleston Interior Designers & Decorators Alix Bragg Interior Design
(The above doors are 24" each.)

Mediterranean Family Room by Dallas Home Builders TATUM BROWN CUSTOM HOMES
Not sure about the width of the above doors.

If you did this in the kitchen and then did more doors around the corner, you would have plenty of outdoor access when you want it.

In the meantime, here are two images I saved to my houzz ideabook that show lots of windows and a single door.

Traditional Kitchen by Cambridge Architects & Building Designers Frank Shirley Architects

Traditional Kitchen by Seattle Interior Designers & Decorators Jacobson Interior Design

Very open, stream-lined feel but with more wall for kitchen planning.

Could you post the plan for the entire first floor? It would be helpful to know where doors and hallways lead.

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 1:16PM
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I am out now but I will put up a floor plan later. I have a picture of the kind of look I was after

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 2:09PM
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Architect had sliding doors in but yes I think they will be french doors.

The fire is a solid fuel stove. Due to planning restrictions we cant move the fireplace.

There are also doors in the conservatory that lead out to the patio- that was the intention - the patio could be accessed from both rooms. Either for eating/entertaining from the kitchen, or just sitting in Conservatory in the evening with doors open and kids playing on patio.

Surely all I gain from going to a single door in the kitchen is one under counter cupboard?

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 2:16PM
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Floor plan

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 4:05PM
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Just measured out my existing kitchen units. I have a similar amount - about 7m, albeit in the new kitchen I will have a bigger fridge and bigger range cooker. In addition in the new kitchen I will have the island for prep area and under storage, plus the large walk in pantry.

So I think I will be fine with whats above, but do you all still think its too small?

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 4:12PM
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Room for additional pantry cabinets in red area? Could be useful for things that arent used so much, and the likes of table mats, coasters, wine glasses etc?

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 4:28PM
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Going to see if the hallway at back door can be reduced by about 24 inches and the additional space added onto the length of the back wall of the kitchen. And perhaps reduce size of windows from 36 inch to 28 inch. what would I need to allow from wall to window for the fridge so that it doesnt look too cramped?

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 5:14PM
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Do the doors from the kitchen face the backyard? Or do the doors from the sun room face the backyard? I'm trying to get oriented about which way is which. Do you have any views you'd like to take advantage of?

Would you be willing to eliminate the back door entry foyer? In other words, have the back door access go directly into the mudroom.

I'm playing around with that entry, trying to see if I can find a way to move the back door so that I can move the pantry to the top wall with the fridge recessed in the wall. That way the entry into the kitchen would come out closer to the DR than directly into the kitchen.

While doing this, I realized that the *only* way to your utility room from inside the house is through your kitchen. Are your W/D in the utility room? What is that square thing with the circle on it in the utility room? Is that the water heater? Anyhoo, if that's where your W/D are, I think you'd appreciate a doorway from the hallway into this room. Save you a bunch of steps lugging d1irty lawndry around (misspelled on purpose to avoid the nasty green underlined pop-up ads).

Do I think your kitchen is too small? Not by a long shot. It's quite a bit larger than mine. Your pantry will be *huge*! My kitchen is medium sized at 150 sq ft, not including the eat-in area. But I don't know what your needs are. Do you have a large family? Lots of cooks in the kitchen? Entertain a lot? This will affect whether your kitchen is right-sized for you.

This post was edited by lisa_a on Tue, Jul 15, 14 at 18:34

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 6:32PM
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Is there another deck attached to the deck shown? In other words is it a two level deck and this is just the upper level? The reason I ask is that between the big French doors from the sunroom and the big French doors from the kitchen you're going to have very little actual usable space on that deck. No where for an outdoor seating area or anything. You'll probably be able to fit a small table and some chairs and not much else and the people sitting on the two sides near the sunroom and kitchen may be at risk of getting hit with the doors.

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 7:17PM
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Site map attached. Deck will be sufficiently bigger than architects illustration.

I am going to take 0.5m from hallway at back door, and 0.5m from patio doors, which gives another 1m of worktop/units along main wall.

I am hesitant to enter straight into mud room. It was designed to avoid this. The washer/dryer is in here, so I dont want to be walking past baskets of washing and ironing all the time.

The box with circle is a laundry chute from upstairs, so this will avoid unnecessary walking with dirty laundry, and the kiddies can take their own clean laundry back upstairs with them at bedtime etc.

Door into hallway would be an option but means losing a bit of storage from the utility. This is where all my clutter will be stored, so wanted to maximise the wall space in this room. (this room is more important to me than the kitchen!!).

    Bookmark   July 16, 2014 at 3:34AM
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Good that the deck will be bigger, it's going to be a nice space. I like the layout of your house overall. The kitchen is an issue but you're getting good suggestions. The only other thing that jumps out at me is the foyer. It's got a lot of doors! Could the office and store room doors go around the corner into the hall? Perhaps as pocket doors? Then you'd have some nice places along that wall for a hall table, perhaps a bench and some art.

    Bookmark   July 16, 2014 at 7:29AM
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Nice suggestion Christina, hadnt even thought of that. might be an issue with getting them squeezed in, but will definitely raise it!

    Bookmark   July 16, 2014 at 11:18AM
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I was thinking along the same line as Christine. Your entry faces lots of doors and blank walls with no see-through views at all. Given the wonderful sight lines the rest of your home offers, I think that's a shame. A home feels more welcoming and larger when you don't enter and face walls and doors.

So I played with your plan a bit to create a hallway from the front to the back door.

This will visually and literally open the space up. It also eliminates laundry room traffic through the kitchen. Sure you have a laundry chute (how I'd love one!) but that doesn't help when carrying clean laundry upstairs. It also provides a more direct path from play room to kitchen so kids can easily grab a drink or a snack. The other big plus is that the path from back door to bathroom is much more direct. You've got a play room so I assume you have kids, likely young kids, so fewer steps to the potty is a very good thing!

This does mean giving up the walk-in pantry, however, I've made up for it with a 10 ft length of pull-out pantry cabs, set up something like this

Contemporary Kitchen by Stoneham Design-Build Firms Don Foote Contracting

These cabs will provide 140 sq ft or 13 sq meters of pantry storage. Your walk-in pantry looks like you plan on 24" deep shelves, which is crazy deep and inconvenient. Anyhoo, if you plan on 24" deep shelving, your pantry would provide 188 sq ft or 17.4 sq meters of storage. However, if you go with 12" deep shelving - it's much easier to access items on shallower shelving - your walk-in pantry would provide only 93.9 sq ft or 8.7 sq meters of storage. Most of your pantry space is given over to floor space, which doesn't add to useable storage in the least.

The kitchen lay-out is MOL the same as in the previous plan I posted. One change I made is that I grouped the windows in the kitchen together. It will look something like this

Traditional Kitchen by Edina Home Builders L. Cramer Builders + Remodelers

Hmm, if you mentally replace the hutch with double glass doors and put a fridge to the right of the range, give the island a piano shape, you'll have a pretty good image of what your kitchen will look like with my plan.

I also made the narrow end of the island a bit narrower to make it easier to clean the center of it. It's a bit longer on the other side so the storage balances out. The other plus this island shape offers is that you'll have nice views out all the windows and doors when sitting at the island.

Oh, I also swapped out the sliding door for double swing doors, same as you have in the sun room.

The table will seat 8 with 44" aisle behind diners at the ends. There was enough room to add 18" deep cabinets (w/ 12" deep uppers) against the left wall.

I left the fireplace as a corner fireplace. Since the flue location limits you to keeping a fireplace in this part of the family room, it makes more sense to angle it towards the FR, not have it flush against the wall. That's why I placed the DR cabinets where I did. It uses the DR side of that corner. If I'd placed the DR cabinets on the opposite wall, they would have protruded into the aisle.

I changed the door from the entry into the main part of the house from a swing door to double pocket doors. I'm assuming the door here will generally be open and pocket doors are best for that type of use. I suggest adding transom windows about the doors, too, to let light in even when the doors are shut. Like this:

Craftsman Kitchen by Seattle Home Stagers Seattle Staged to Sell LLC

If you don't have a basement - no stairs leading down under the stairs going up - don't waste that space under the stairs. Add another closet with the door facing the "store" closet. Our space under our stairs houses my walk-in pantry. It's small but it would have been even smaller if we hadn't taken advantage of what would otherwise be wasted space.

One last comment: If you are able to add storage under the stairs, you could reduce the depth of the other "store" closet to add more pantry cabs. As I wrote earlier, take a tally with measurements of all that you need to store. What you will have is easily double what I will have in my kitchen - which is more than I currently have - but I'm still not going to completely fill up all the space. And I have a lot more small appliances than I thought I had (I swear they breed in the cabs when I'm not looking, ha!).

    Bookmark   July 16, 2014 at 4:40PM
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Wow what can I say Lisa. Amazing! Why didn't I
Come here instead of hiring an architect!

    Bookmark   July 16, 2014 at 6:15PM
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Wow what can I say Lisa. Amazing! Why didn't I
Come here instead of hiring an architect!

    Bookmark   July 16, 2014 at 6:16PM
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Can see what you are saying about useable space in the pantry but I really don't want to lose my walk in pantry. It was one of my initial must haves! I was intending to do mainly 12" shelves right round apart from the opening for the door, with one or two lower 18" ones. So is it 72" wide? That allows 18" on both sides with 36" movement space between. I may also put a small under counter freezer in here at some stage(probably on store.wall). The hallway does look fab through! What width is that corridor from back door? Ooh decisions!

No basement but didn't want to close off under the stairs, for storage. We can do it at a later stage if we feel the need but prefer to keep the space open to start with.

This post was edited by shell820810 on Wed, Jul 16, 14 at 18:40

    Bookmark   July 16, 2014 at 6:34PM
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Thank you, I'm flattered you like it! But I don't proclaim to have the structural knowledge that architects do. You'll need to run changes past him or her to check whether my plan affects load bearing walls and if it does, he or she will need to address that.

I completely understand the love of a walk-in pantry. I interviewed a KD a few years back who wanted me to give up my walk-in so that I could move the fridge to its place. Unlike you, I don't have sufficient wall space to make up for all the storage my walk-in gives me. And I had told her at the beginning of our consult that giving up the walk-in was an absolute no-go. That's one reason why I didn't hire her.

But back to your situation.

You can do a walk-in pantry but you don't need it to be nearly as deep as you have it. It can be set-up more along the lines of these walk-ins:

Dimensions of following pantry: 42"Dx8'Wx9'H

Traditional Kitchen by Weymouth Closet & Home Storage Designers Marie Newton, Closets Redefined

Dimensions of following pantry: approximately 3'-1" deep by 6'-6.5" wide.

Traditional Kitchen by Millbrook Architects & Building Designers Crisp Architects

Traditional Kitchen by Saratoga General Contractors RemodelWest

Double doors allow you to use the kitchen aisle as part of the pantry aisle. You could do two of these wide, shallow pantries side by side. You will lose storage capacity but even so, you'll still have a lot of pantry storage so the trade-off may not be a problem.

Their additional depth - at least 1' more than the pantry cabs - will require that you reduce the island to maintain adequate aisles between pantry and island. You could also decrease the aisle width from 48" to 44" (keeping it at that width for clearance behind someone seated at the island) so that you don't need to reduce the size of the island the full amount you need for the walk-in pantry.

Or you relinquish the back hallway.

Or you keep the back hallway and give up a little bit of your laundry room. I did add cabinets on the bottom wall of your laundry room for more storage so it's quite possible that a small reduction in width - say a 1' - would not be an issue.

Or you do a combination of reducing the aisle, reducing the island and reducing the laundry room. Taking a little from each will make a big difference for your walk-in pantry but will minimally impact the aisle, island and laundry room, IMO.

I estimate that the width of the back hallway is at least 36" and quite possibly 42". I was going off the width of the back door but since I don't have dimensions of these spaces, it's still a guess on my part.

One last thing about your pantry. Freezers create heat so it's generally not a good idea to put a freezer, even a small one, in a pantry. Freezer drawers or an under counter freezer in the island may be a better option.

Oh, wait, I just had an idea! You could recess a below counter freezer into the wall of the pantry, facing the island. It would be like this but on a much smaller scale.

Traditional Laundry Room by Tulsa General Contractors Home Innovations

The other option is to add the freezer to your laundry room. That's where I plan to put my 2 under-counter freezers, one stacked on top of the other. (It was the only way I could get 10 cu. ft of freezer in a 24" wide space, short of buying a $$$ built-in freezer.)

I had an open staircase in my townhouse in S. Fla. It does make a space feel more airy but I wish I had added storage to make the lowest end of it functional. There's not enough head-room for much else and until I got used to it, I bumped my head on the stairs more than once when I used the desk I put underneath the taller portion.

Maybe you could keep most of it open but add storage to the lower end, like these ideas:

Craftsman Staircase by Saint Charles Home Builders Stonebreaker Builders & Remodelers

Traditional Entry by Boston Architects & Building Designers Jan Gleysteen Architects, Inc

That might allow you to keep most of the space under the stairs open long term.

    Bookmark   July 17, 2014 at 2:29PM
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Just want to say thanks for all your help. Kitchen has to take a back seat for a while. We are starting the build and I need a bit of time to get quotes etc. No doubt I will be back needing help with other aspects in the not too distant future

    Bookmark   July 19, 2014 at 5:35PM
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You're welcome! Glad to help. Good luck!

    Bookmark   July 19, 2014 at 8:01PM
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