Critique my kitchen layout, please!

nadya1972June 17, 2014

Let me start by saying that I'm a longtime lurker and have learned so much from people on this forum. We are finally gearing up to expand our house, which is a rather modest rambler. We'll be pushing one wall of the house out by 8 ft, which will gain us a bigger kitchen and an additional bedroom.

I think I have most of my layout under control but what do I know?? I would be really, really grateful if you kitchen gurus look this over and tells me if something doesn't make sense. Here is what we know:

The kitchen will be approx 19 x 11 ft. It's an L-shape with a very long vertical line and a very short horizontal one. There is a small island.

I want ample prep space (which is accomplished by a stretch of counter (39'') plus the island. I plan for all drawers, no upper cabinets, and some fancy backsplash tile to serve as a focal point.

On the short line of L will be the fridge with cabinets on top and open shelving (where upper cabinets usually would be) to house a microwave and cookbooks/knick-knacks.

There is a bay window bump-out, into which a U-shaped booth will be fitted. The booth will be flanked by 18''-wide drawer stacks with glassfront cabinets on top.

I love to cook and bake, but presently my crap kitchen doesn't allow for much of it, and it makes me unhappy.

As for the looks, I am planning white shaker style cabinets (IKEA! Here I come!), undecided on countertop, hardwood, and I am in love with Moorish tiles for the backsplash. I am going to post some inspiration pics separately.

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Inspiration pictures

    Bookmark   June 17, 2014 at 10:38PM
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I have one you already have the bump out window in the kitchen? If you want a banquette (like the inspiration picture above) then I would not have the U-shape banquette. It will be more difficult to slide into (especially for adults) and I think a single banquette between the built-ins (like above) will be easier.

Okay...sorry, two more questions :) Do you plan to have seating at the island? Are you going to have any storage on that long wall behind it?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 12:53AM
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Do you have enough wide storage? 15" and 18" drawer stacks dont seem wide enough for a lot of things. Maybe your island has wider stacks?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 7:41AM
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Agreed: for such a good size kitchen, you have really small non-functional (like the corner susan) cabinets
Also, I would definitely remove the DW between the range/sink: that's my main prep area.
Where's your trash and microwave?

Quick idea for starter:
- this is a kitchen where you can't afford real estate for a wall oven.
- get a range (including oven under it)
- put a 2nd oven or MW in the island
- put the fridge where you have the WO
- put the range where you have the fridge
- slide the DW/sink closer to bay window
- deadcorner the corner where you have the susan, so you can have a 3-drawer base cab (which is way easier to use than a lazy susan) for pots/pans, etc.
- trash under the left side of the 36" sink base

good luck,
keep tweaking,

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 8:31AM
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Can you provide info on what surrounds the kitchen? Exterior walls and flow through the house will impact your layout.

Are you planning on venting to the outside?

Are you planning on a counter depth frig? Or are you able to recess the frig into the wall in that location?

Is there a reason you have a cooktop and wall oven? Were you hoping for a double oven?

I agree with many of the above comments especially getting the dw out of your prep space. With more information we can offer more input.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 9:37AM
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Thanks, everyone!

Lavender lass: I did think about the difficulty of sliding into the U-shape. I am hoping that its length (a whopping 8 ft) will help mitigate it. I don't have the bumpout yet but it's in the plan because without these two extra feet, I don't have a good enough clearance between the island and the booth (assuming there will be a chair facing the window too).

There is no seating planned on the island, just two stacks of 24'' drawers and 12'' deep cabinets on the side of the island facing the wall. There is no storage on the wall - no room! Barely enough for a walkway.

OOTM Mom - I think storage would be adequate. I have two stacks of 24'' drawers in the island plus cabinets on the other side. There are 18'' drawers flanking the booth. There is a full-height pantry plus a broom closet. There are 30'' drawers under the cooktop. Plus two 15'' stacks. Do you think that's not enough?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 9:42AM
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Jennifer, I am going to post the full layout. Briefly, to the left of the kitchen is an existing great room with two steps down. There is an existing glass door to the terrace (over which the addition will be built) that will be closed off.

To the right is the hallway to three bedrooms.

Yes, planning on a counterdepth fridge. I want a cooktop and a wall oven for two reasons: a) to gain drawer storage underneath the cooktop, and b) I bake a ton and it kills my back.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 9:52AM
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Will you have an additional eating/dining area in the great room?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:07AM
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Yes, there is a dining area to the left of the steps in the great room.

Amanda - thanks so much. I did think about reversing the kitchen this way but that would mean anyone who comes into the kitchen for a quick drink or snack from the fridge would have to go in all the way. With the current setup they can get it at the entry to the kitchen and be gone.

The trash is planned under the sink and the MW on the shelf above the counter by the fridge (near the corner). I am hesitant to put the MW in the island because my 4-year old son has never met a door he didn't like to slam. He'd be parked by the MW all day opening and slamming it.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:16AM
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We have a corner in our kitchen with a very similar arrangement of yours by your sink. The sink and fridge are in the same spot you've got (our fridge wall is a couple inches longer, I think).

Is the 15" pantry by the fridge full height? We proposed a plan like this at one point and were told that'd make a 'dark corner'. We were trying to get the microwave over there into a wall cabinet, so our proposal was for something a bit wider, but we were cautioned against anything tall over there.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:30AM
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I agree that the DW should not be between the sink and range. I also agree that one 30" drawer is much more useful than two 15" drawers - you spend twice as much on hardware, and lose space. I have an 18" drawer stack, and I wouldn't want to go any smaller if I had a choice.

With no upper cabinets, where do you plan to store dishes? What about food and small appliances?

I think your corner will be crowded with the pantry you've shown next to the fridge. Since that's the only wall with stuff going to the ceiling, I wonder if you could use that corner as a small walk-in pantry, with an opening where you show the pantry, and floor to ceiling shelves on the east wall (assuming the top of the drawing is north). You could hang a broom on the south wall, and free up 15" at the other end.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:52AM
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What is the objection to having a dishwasher between the sink and cooktop?

Currently we are a one-cook family but I hope with a bigger kitchen it will change. I do think that we don't usually clean AND cook at the same time. We cook first, then someone cleans up.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 11:11AM
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Annkh - I agree that larger drawers are better. Currently the plan is for 30'' drawers under the cooktop, 2 x 24'' drawer stacks in the island (which I suppose can be easily changed to a 30'' stack plus a 15'' stack), and at least one 30'' drawer in the wall oven tower.

I thought dishes would go into the island drawers (planned to be across from the dishwasher for easier unloading). Food will go into the tall pantry plus 12'' deep cabinets on the other side of the island. Small appliances can go into the corner cabinet with a lazy susan (that would be the juicer, waffle iron, griddle, bread baking machine maybe), and coffeemaker plus toaster will always be on the counter.

Do I understand correctly that in your walk-in pantry idea the fridge should be going somewhere else? Where?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 11:16AM
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Nadya, we are primarily a one cook kitchen and I usually cook then clean up. If I lived all alone then dw in prep would be fine. But, I don't. My 3 littles are 5, 7, and 8 years old. They like to help mom in the kitchen and they have chores: unloading dw in the morning, making lunch for school, loading dw after dinner. And DH likes to make family breakfast on the weekend. So very quickly my very small kitchen gets filled with lots of people doing stuff. Having a separate clean up zone allows me to task kids with a job while I cook. It also is a great secondary prep spot for my helpers.

If you have the space it's worth it to consider how quickly your use of the kitchen will change. (The wee littles dont stay wee little very long! Though my 5 year old still is a door slammer he already likes to cook dinner with me....)

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 11:27AM
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I have 24", 27", and 33" drawer stacks. I like the 27" best I think. 24 is fine for my utensil stack, 27 is a good size, and 33 is very roomy.

Only you know how much wider stuff you have. I have a lot of wide baking dishes and pyrex, so 15" and 18" wide drawers would not work for me. I would try to find a way to get wider stacks.

I am not sure putting the range where the fridge is would work well, it seems a little too short for comfort, and I like the idea of tucking your MW in that corner, no one will see it behind the fridge. Although, your 4 yo will grow out of that (hopefully), so if you think undercounter is better in the long run, keep that in mind.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 11:39AM
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One other question (at least for now):

Where the sliding glass door is currently will be a solid wall? In other words, the kitchen wall that is shared with the great room will not be open other than the entrance by the foyer?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 12:07PM
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nadya, I'm just throwing out ideas - one of the great things about this forum is that with so many different people thinking about your kitchen, you get some off-the-wall ideas. I'm certainly no expert!

My pantry idea is probably idiotic - I don't think I've seen anything like it. I'm always thinking of ways to maximize space - especially in a corner. My thought was to leave the fridge as is, and have an opening (pocket door?) next to the fridge (you have about 27"). Once inside, if your back was to the fridge, you would see shelves in front of you - maybe 18" deep (much deeper and you'll lose things in the back). You could even put your MW in there. If you went with a standard fridge, you could make it 30" wide.

If you do go with a susan in the corner, get a super susan, where the turntables sit on shelves instead of a pole. It increases the available space and weight limit. FYI, my breadmaker would never fit in my super susan (but it's really old - perhaps they're smaller now). I put mine in a diagonal cabinet, so the turntables are full circles. I keep small appliances there - mixer, crock pot, rice cooker, waffle maker, small electric grill - as well as colanders, since it's next to the sink. The diagonal also allowed me to put a drawer in the top. I have a little MW that sits on the counter, in the corner.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 12:36PM
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Jennifer, yes, the sliding glass door will go and the kitchen won't be connected to the great room. I originally wanted to leave an opening there so people can come in right by the booth and sit, but got talked out of it. I am not a big fan of the open plan per se. Do you think there SHOULD be an opening there?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 1:40PM
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If I have to move the DW to the other side of the sink, I suppose that can be done. So to gain these extra 24 inches, I could do the following:

- remove the broom cabinet from the long run of cabinets and relocate to where the 15'' pantry currently is. This will gain 15 inches on the counter run

- reduce the size of sink base cabinet to 30'' instead of 36'' (would that still be functional?)

- reduce the length of prep space (currently 39'') to 36''. This will, in total, add up to 24 required inches for the DW while still keeping the corner cabinet and the wall oven.

- OR, I could locate the DW directly adjacent to the corner. That means I will need to get rid of the corner cabinet, dead-corner that space and put it a 12'' pull-out on the short side.

I think a pantry is nice but perhaps not a must have as I can find storage elsewhere. What do you all think?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 5:00PM
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I would like to have access to the great room and dining area from the kitchen without having to walk out into the foyer so I'd like to keep an opening where the sliders are, but reduce the size of it.

Do you ever grill outside or dine outside in the back yard? If you do you need to consider how to get there from the kitchen and preferably a shorter route. Where is your access from the house to the backyard?

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 5:38PM
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Lyfia - we do use the backyard but there is sadly no access to the backyard or outside from the kitchen. The backyard is adjacent to the family room, which is adjacent to the great room. There is no way to put the kitchen in a way that would open to the patio - just the quirks of this old house.

Currently the dining area is in the great room but across from the kitchen, not adjacent to it. I could possibly reorient it (not easy) but it's possible, I suppose. I can see keeping the opening if that happens. The way the dining area is set up right now, keeping the opening into the great room would not help (because it's closer to the foyer than the kitchen).

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 7:13PM
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I just noticed how large your foyer is.
Could you build a walk-in pantry there next to the foyer closet, enclosing the hotwaterheater?
Then you don't need the 2 15"pantry/broom closet in the kitchen.
I love my 2 walk-in pantries. Even though one of them is on the other side of the bathroom, that location still works fine.


    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 8:04PM
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So to get to the back yard do you have to go through the great room? And the dinning area is in the great room?

Why do you have that small alcove in the bedroom? (Behind the kitchen.) Are you doing a small built in desk? Just curious because it's otherwise kitchen space....

What size/type of table are you planning on using with the "u" shaped banquet?

I agree about building a second closet/pantry or at least broom storage in the foyer.

Also, have you tried the ikea planner? It will help to visualize your space.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 8:25PM
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I would make an opening from the kitchen into the great room on the bump out end of the kitchen, roughly in the location of the current sliders. You will still have separate space. But it seems from your layout, with a dining area in the great room and backyard access in that direction, that another opening is warranted. The second opening will aide the traffic flow from the kitchen to great room, dinning room, and the backyard. Right now the kitchen to great room connection is only through the foyer. That seems to make the kitchen more enclosed and separate than the house flow needs. Also, your inspiration picture is open and flooded with natural light. I am not sure from the drawing where windows are in the great room, but having an opening by the banquet will give that area breathing room at least.

Then I would switch the wall oven and frig location. I am not sure you need or want that tall storage between the frig and banquet. You should analyze adding a closet/additional storage in the entry/foyer. Then have dw, sink, prep space, cooktop.... I would give you more detail but I am not clear on the length of that cab/counter run. Also, think about a mw and wall oven stack? Or I would do shelves or cabs from the wall oven stack to the perpendicular wall, and put the mw on shelf or in upper cab there. You may want to look at mw options bc they can be tricky.

The sink base depends on the sink size you want and the amount of stuff you want underneath, eg garbage pullout, food disposal, filters, etc....

Other thoughts: do you want the island lower, baking table height,since you bake a lot? You could maybe do double wall oven....

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:04PM
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Jennifer - yes, to get to the back yard, we have to go through the great room AND the family room! Long trek. The dining area is in the great room but behind foyer wall, not kitchen wall. I can possibly reorient it (and that would make sense), but the great room layout would make that awkward.

That small alcove in the bedroom is the product of my desire to not deal with corners. I don't see a productive way to use that corner in the kitchen, because I simply must have my booth flanked by drawer stacks with glass front cabs on top. I figured the bedroom can use this space for bookshelves or whatnot.

The table for the booth would be about 50'' by 40'' (overhanging the booth by a couple of inches as recommended).

I totally agree with moving the broom closet to the foyer closet. We can spare the space, and to be honest, I rarely clean so not having the broom at my fingertips won't break my heart.

I can possibly lose the 15'' pantry by the fridge too, replacing it with a 12'' pullout cabinet. This will make the corner less cramped. I can use shallow cabinets on the other side of the island as pantry space.

I just did a back-of-the-napkin math and it seems there is 10'' of space between the end of broom closet and front of 18'' drawer stacks flanking the booth. Perhaps we can extend the counter run all the way by 10'', which together with 15'' broom closet will give us the space to push the dishwasher to the other side of the sink. Whee!

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:06PM
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Id swap out sink/ Dwasher combo with stove/ oven combo.

Think while one is cooking, it works best for range to be in middle of both.

One has reasonably close access to both food from pantry / fridge food on one side and minimize mess putting dirty pots / untensils to sink /Dwasher on other side.

Loving the seating area setup!

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:19PM
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RNmomof2 zone 5

How about keeping the door to the great room there but make it smaller than current. Then move the fridge down towards the table where it will be much more convenient at meal time. Then narrow the doorway from the entry hall to the kitchen buying more wall space at that end of the kitchen. (Perhaps also extend the great room wall farther along the step, closing off the kitchen view from the dining area in the great room.)

I would also figure out dimensions of a table and see if the island could be made longer. If you bake, there is not a large area of usable uninterrupted counter space with the current plan.

On the new longer wall where the fridge is currently, wall ovens could anchor the end towards the great room. This closes off the view somewhat into the prep/sink area. Would the cook top fit on this wall, leaving a long area for prep and storage between new fridge location and sink?

Just some things to bat around!

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:30PM
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My kitchen is small. You have good space to work with. And the good news is small changes can make a big difference.

With the double opening you give the little guy a good path to loop around, riding toys, matchbox cars, soccer balls etc. I do think it would add breathing room to the banquet.

I am sorry I am not handy w apps or paper to draw up ideas. Perhaps if you post alternative updated ideas then you will get more feedback on those plans. Good luck!

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 10:32PM
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For those of you recommending that I switch positions of WO and fridge, how would the fridge open if it's right next to the wall? Wouldn't that mean that I will be locked into a particular fridge style? single door, swings the opposite way type thing?

I cannot narrow down the entry from the foyer to the kitchen -it's only 3 1/2 ft as it is, I was actually thinking it's too narrow already.

Jaynes - I like that idea as it would actually mean the range hood can be SOMEWHAT centered on the wall. However, it would also mean that when you get something from the fridge, you need to walk past the range to the sink to wash it, and I think it's not logical. The logical sequence of cooking is get stuff from the fridge, wash it in the sink, cook it on the range. For that, the sink has to be the next nearest thing to the fridge so that you don't take a scenic route from the fridge to the sink. It can work on a triangle but not on a semi galley set up like mine. i think.

    Bookmark   June 18, 2014 at 11:39PM
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On the plan, it seems like the foyer/kitchen opening is approx. 5 1/2' wide.

Fwiw: If the wall is 24" deep next to the frig then the frig doors and hinges would likely sit proud of the wall. Even a counter depth frig usually has doors that would sit proud of that wall bc the case is 24" deep. Then the frig would open bc the door/hinge clear the wall. You could keep a 12' pullout pantry between the frig and wall too. But, often that is done bc the frig cannot be positioned closer to the wall bc the wall impedes the door swing. That would likely not be the case here, at least that's what it appears like on the plan.

Perhaps our measurements are off? Some dimensions we have assumed.... How long is the long counter space! 16'? It seems like the kitchen is 13'1" ?

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 12:25AM
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Hi Jennifer,

you're right, and I'm wrong. The opening from the foyer to the kitchen is about 5 1/2 ft. wide. Can definitely afford to steal another foot or so.

I may be dumb but still don't get how the fridge door would open if it is against the wall. I mean, I get how it would open, but I don't get how it would open all the way out. Wouldn't the door hit the wall, or in this case, the glassfront cabinet (especially if I extend the counter run all the way to the corner)?

Actually you all made me think of a philosophical question. What should be closer to the eating area: the fridge or the cooktop? There are good arguments to be made for both. Fridge in proximity means people can easily get up from the table to reach for a drink or something. BUT, cooktop in proximity means that whoever is serving the food would not have to cross the kitchen to get it to the table. Right now I'm leaning toward cooktop in proximity because at least in theory, you don't HAVE to go to the fridge during the meal. But getting of food from cooking surface to the table has to happen Every.Single.Time.

What do you think?

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 10:04AM
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Are you open to considering something totally different? Like making this into a wide galley style.
Put the fridge and wall ovens and wall pantry on the left side between the 2 openings to the great room. Center the entrance to the kitchen, maybe french doors or sliding doors to close off from the foyer or open up when it's pretty and you want to see the banquette? No island, but you'll get counter space back near the range and eliminate the lazy susan corner and get a big drawer stack instead. You would have to move the entrance to the great room closest to the foyer a little further down as well but since you're already bumping out your house I figured you were open to moving walls ;)
I'm weird about symmetry and the idea of coming into the house and facing a wall with an entrance to the kitchen to the side is off to me.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 12:16PM
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I'm at work, so just a quick sketch. Can you open up that wall to the great room and add a second step down? This would give you a LOT more storage and maybe even room for a narrow table/work island. It shows you have 11' from the wall to the front of the cabinets, so an island/table should fit. Just a few ideas :) From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Thu, Jun 19, 14 at 14:49

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 12:25PM
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RNmomof2 zone 5

The main problem with the last floor plan is that upon entering the house that whole row of cabinets with main clean up area sink is directly in front of you. If door is moved from left hand to center that would help.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 3:08PM
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With a deep sink, I don't think that would be a problem. It really depends on how fast the dishes are done :)

I am not always a clean cook, so being honest about how you live is important...but a deep sink and even a second dishwasher can make a huge difference!

Having the sink on that side, allows more light and views between the spaces...and clean up to be out of the way of the main prep area.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 3:14PM
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I agree with the importance of acknowledging the reality of how you live.

I am intrigued with the galley kitchen idea. My thoughts:

I can see doing a second opening into the great room (where the sliding glass door is currently, next to the future booth), but the taking down of the wall (if I read your sketch correctly, you suggest opening the wall in front of sink?) is not happening. I dislike great room/kitchen combos very much and need to maintain them as separate areas.

Lavender lass, you are right that the width of the galley would be 11 feet. So, doing a quick calculation, 24'' for cabinet depth, 42'' clearances on both sides, the max width of the island would be only 2 feet. I think that's kind of skimpy, no?

The other thing is that I am being honest with myself that no one will be cleaning WHILE I am cooking. I can see sending DH or DS to clean when I'm done with cooking, but for someone to clean WHILE I am cooking will not happen. Likewise, I don't see doing all the cooking and prepping on the countertop near the cooktop, and THEN moving all the dirty dishes across the room to the dishwasher, either across the isle, or with a stop over the island. That's a hassle. I really feel that all the cooking, cleaning and prepping needs to happen on one line to be efficient.

One galley layout I see happening is to move the fridge, wall oven and pantry to the wall adjacent to the great room (all closed cabinetry, no mess). Then shorten the wall where the fridge currently is to house only a dishwasher. So on the long counter run it would be cooktop, sink, corner, dishwasher. And I would have to decide how much I want the island.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 3:54PM
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In LL's version with the clean-up in the view from the front. I think I'd want to move the opening some and add a wall at the end of the cabinet run. Then put the Fridge where the ovens are and the oven in the corner area instead of a corner cabinets.

Then if the opening could be centered so that from the foyer you see the island and the banquet on the far end.

I would want an opening to the great room near the banquet. Just from a traffic flow perspective, always nice to not have a single entry point when you have the space. Just picture you calling dinner is ready. Where would people come from? If the great room (since dining is opposite side) then it is a natural way to get to the kitchen and the table and not have to walk through the kitchen to get there. No dead ends. I think a 42" opening would be a nice size without being too big.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 3:59PM
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Your last paragraph was pretty much what I was trying to describe. You'll have to decide if you want an island since by moving the wall ovens and pantries you will have more counter space near the cooktop and sink but less floor space for an island. Keep in mind that this will give you the use of the whole wall for floor to ceiling cabinets for extra storage. I'm from the same camp that I would not want to take all the dirty cooking stuff and move it all the way across the room to put into the sink.

Do you like islands in general and envision doing prep behind while standing in front of the cook top?
Another thought is that if you don't have an island, you can have a bigger table or be able to extend that table further into the kitchen if you need to accommodate more people - cookie decorating party with the little ones etc.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 4:04PM
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Like this - and this is just my chicken scratching.

Couple of things to note. I like that the short wall is getting shorter and therefore more open (to the foyer). I like that the wall of cabinetry you will see from the foyer has zero potential for mess. I like that cooktop, sink and dw remain on a single cabinet run. And it actually feels like on the long run, I will have more counterspace than I will know what to do with..

And it seems that I do have room for a skinny island.

133'' (total length) - 26'' (depth of fridge/oven/pantry wall) - 38'' (clearance from fridge) - 38'' (clearance from cooktop wall) = 31 inch. Skinny but doable - see inspiration here from positano

That IS a skinny island but I do think I need something here, if not for prep, then for landing area purposes. Imagine taking things out of the oven. Or going to the fridge and needing to set a glass somewhere before pouring juice or milk.

The only issue with this is that it destroys the no-upper cabinets, airy feel I was trying to create. With one wall of floor to ceiling cabinetry, it may feel somewhat more closed-in.

What do you think?

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Thu, Jun 19, 14 at 17:09

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 5:03PM
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I like this one too. Or you can go all the way and get rid of the corner all together.
As far as the "airy feel", you don't have windows on the long walls on either side so it was never going to be totally airy, now you have a bigger opening to the foyer and the opening to the great room. If you're taking those cabinets to the ceiling, you can have glass doors on the very top with some lights behind them?

To see how it feels, maybe take a bunch of cardboard and mockup the space the wall cabinets and fridge would take up on the left wall and stand in your kitchen and see if it feels more cramped.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 5:27PM
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maybe switch the fridge w/ the panty, so that the island doesn't become a "barrier island" where you constant have to walk around the island to get to fridge.

1 more note:
- if you have the space/want a little luxury, put in a 2nd DW.
I use the 2nd daily as a drying rack (for all those plastic zippy cups, hand wash knives, etc), so my counters are completely cleared off. I love it!
and w/ parties, I can have both running/cleaning = breeze.


    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 5:54PM
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I would probably try a work table (it can move, if necessary) about 30" across. That would leave you more than 3' on each side and you could adjust as necessary.

The island works best, if it's not a barrier to the rest of the work area. If the fridge is on one side and the sink or range on the other...the island will probably just get in the way. That's why I was trying to separate work zones. I was also hoping you would have some help cleaning WHILE you were cooking. It's not too late to teach them, is it? LOL

13' for a kitchen is a lot of space for a galley...that's 9' of walking back and forth. Mine is 6' and that's almost too much, at times. Since you want a wall oven, what if you put a baking center on that wall? With a small prep sink and maybe the broom closet? Or you could have a larger pantry. Just a few ideas :) From Kitchen plans

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 7:05PM
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Lavender lass - I agree completely re: too large. I dislike gratuitously large kitchens "just because we can." I resent having to walk even one extra step when I shouldn't have to. I would rather have a compact but truly well designed and functional space than endless runs of cabinets no one uses.

In fact, I'll have you know that I gave up at least five feet of kitchen width to carve out an additional bedroom next to it. And I feel good about that.

I agree that 9 feet is a long walk to take for something you need. This is why originally everything was on one line. But you people don't want me to do that :) And since SOMETHING has to go on the opposite end of the galley, it should be the fridge because at least you can get everything you need to cook a meal out of the fridge and leave it alone for a while. I wouldn't want to carry dirty dishes across 9 ft.

Sadly, I cannot move the entrance to the great room. If I move it, we'll have to redo the two steps down. If we redo the steps, I'll need to redo the floors. It's 450 sq ft of hardwood. No thank you.

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 10:56PM
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If I was farther along, I'd show you my 30"w island. Cabinets are due in a few weeks.

I dislike 24"w islands. I wanted an island, so I put 6"d cabinets behind the 24's. One will face the pantry area and be a one-row-deep area for food stuff. One will face the sink and likely be for mugs and glasses etc. (no kids, so no problem with delicate stuff low).

Here is a link that might be useful: Thread on shallow cabinets on island

    Bookmark   June 19, 2014 at 11:42PM
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Another inspiration pic..but just priced these tiles and are out of reach, sadly.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 12:27AM
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Cal_quail - what are your clearances like?

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 12:34AM
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Off the top of my head the overall width is 158". Maybe a couple more? I seem to remember the range side of the island we had 40 or 42" planned and the sink side 38". Again, we haven't installed yet. Cabinets are due 7/7-7/11.

I know the aisles are pushing the recommendations but there are just the two of us and when I look at how little space we've worked in together for years, I figure this will seem huge and luxurious.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 12:56AM
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Okay, let's go back to your one wall kitchen :) Here's another take on it (choose whichever you prefer) with a larger table/island and a wall of pantry storage.

If you want to mix it up a bit, add some display glass cabinets or bookcases and use the entire wall for storage. I would add the other doorway (if possible) just to give you better flow through the space. Hope this helps :) From Kitchen plans

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 1:02AM
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All right!! Thanks to everyone's ideas, here's the new proposed layout. It's strictly pencil on paper and NOT to scale.

Things to note and questions:

New opening into the great room (by the booth) is 48''. Is that enough?

On the left, I am suggesting floor-to-ceiling cabinetry housing the following, in this order, nearest the foyer first: a 36'' wide fridge, a 30'' wall oven/mw stack, and a 60'' pantry-bookcase wall, exact division between them undetermined, but whatever works. Probably a skinny bookcase and pantry for the rest of the width. Whatever IKEA product fits. I am suggesting to put the fridge first so the island doesn't block it.

The new island is 30'' wide, assuming 38'' clearance aisles on both sides. Is the aisle width enough?

Can you please help me figure out how long the island can be? I am assuming that the booth table will project by 1 ft from the booth, and a 48'' clearance between the table and the island.

Can you please help me figure out the sequence of drawers/cabinets on the right? I've plotted the dw, sink and range (not cooktop, range with oven) plus whatever drawer size fitted - do you think it makes sense? For the 42'' stretch of prep space between the range and sink, I could use, for instance, a 30'' bank of drawers plus a 12''-wide pullout for cutting boards etc.

I would ideally like to sort out the configuration of drawers in a way that makes unloading of dishes from the dishwasher into the drawers easy. Or easier! Perhaps I can put the dishes into the first bank of drawers (nearest the dw) on the island?

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 3:01PM
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Good looking layout!
Is there a reason that the dishwasher is not next to the sink? I always thought it's easiest if it's right there so you can rinse and load.
If dishes are on the island which way do the drawers open? Towards the prep area? You'd have a problem of getting dishes competing with prep - but that maybe not a problem if you plate meals before serving (I don't know your meal style :)
I have no idea if this is done, but maybe for the island you can have the drawers open straight towards the foyer - is that what you meant? That will give you a 30" set of drawers on that end for dishes etc. And then you can have other drawers facing the range with pots and pans etc.
Is trash under the sink?

Sorry I asked more questions instead of providing solutions :)

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 3:24PM
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I know you said its not to scale, but if your range and or your wall oven is across from your island, 38" seems pretty tight. What sort of doors on the range? two smaller ovens with doors that dont project as far when open (Like some of the GE Cafe ranges) might still work. But I think a standard one door oven may protrude to much when open for easy maneuvering around the oven. Or is it a cooktop and not a range?

I went from 37" clearance to 43" clearance between an island and a dishwasher, it makes a huge difference! I also increased my clearance in front of my range. At first it seemed like extra steps, but I'm used to it now and appreciate the space.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 3:25PM
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I know 38'' is on the tight side. However, I can position the island so that it clears the range door (meaning it starts to right of the range, if facing the range), and there's nothing in front of the range door. Good point.

The wall oven, then I'll have to position it so that it is higher than the island surface.

Intriguing idea to have the dish drawers in the island open toward the kitchen foyer and table. And convenient (to get another dish while sitting at the table). Hmm.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 3:34PM
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OR the island can get skinnier but not by much.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 3:43PM
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Is the 38" cabinet to cabinet, or counter to counter? You'll have counter overhang of around an inch all around.

Better to have the DW next to the sink, and put a drawer stack where you show the DW. The extra 6" goes to the other side of the sink, either between sink and range, or on the other side of the range. 48" is too big for a singe drawer; the most efficient way to divide up your base cabinets around the range depends on how much stuff you have, and where you want to put it.

Consider a 12" set of shelves or cabinets facing the table, instead of opening toward the kitchen (so it's 24" wide, but 12" deep).

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 3:56PM
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Annkh - I figured 26'' deep for the banks, which should be counter to counter (24'' cabinet depth plus overhang).

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 4:17PM
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Fwiw. I would prefer to have my range/cooktop protected from traffic as much as possible. I don't want to have everyone walk by--to go get a dish or flatware or a glass, or go to the sink to wash hands, or toss something in the garbage etc--while I am prepping or while things are on the stove top. Also, I make a mess when I cook and clean up after we eat so I would want to shift the prep/cooktop mess to the other side away from my pretty table.

1 sided kitchen, I would do a modification of the plan by lavender_lass (My Page) on Fri, Jun 20, 14 at 1:02. Extend the short wall of the L and put the cooktop/range next to the wall oven on the short wall. So 24" (perp cab), 3" fill, 30" cooktop/drawers or range, 15" drawer stack/tray cab (or 18" depending on the extent you lengthen the wall and size of oven) , 33" or 30" wall oven stack (depends on 30" or 27" wall oven)....

Or if doing 2 sided kitchen, I would not have a short wall of cabs. I would put the cooktop/range on foyer side of the long wall (across from frig) and put the dw and sink on the table side of the long wall.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 8:58PM
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Jennifer - thank you. I thought of this and I agree that protecting the cooking space from traffic is a good thing, however: putting the range toward the foyer means someone getting food from the range to the table (me!) would have to travel a lot further (along the cabinet run, along the sink) to get to the table. Do you not think it is desirable to have the place of cooking food as close as possible to the place of consuming food? :)

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 9:08PM
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RNmomof2 zone 5

I think that you need to measure some distances in your current kitchen and then look at what the same distance would be with this plan.

To me the frig and sink seem far away from the table. For the next few days, walk this new distance every time you do something in your current kitchen. Where are the dishes going? There doesn't appear to be much storage near the DW. Will you be carrying the dishes somewhere to put them away and then another distance to the table?

Think of cooking in the kitchen. Make the trip to the fridge, back to where your cooking tools are, to the range, to the oven, etc. It seems like a lot of walking. Picture feeding breakfast to your family. What paths will you be taking?

It seems to me that there may be a more functional layout.

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 9:26PM
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I agree w rnmomof2. I did a lot of mock ups and tried living in the space with different options. It helped a lot. It's really important to get a feel for space and how your family functions, including how that will change as everyone ages.

Every family functions differently. Some folks plate food then bring it to the table, others serve family style at the table, and others don't sit at a table!
That's why I try to explain why I would make certain decisions, so posters can say, "what? We don't do that. No, way!"

Even at 5 yo my DS is expected to help set the table, and help bring food to the table, and clear his plate etc. Though these are mostly just expectations now, time goes so very quickly and mom will not always be the doer of all things. At least that's my plan /hope! ;)

    Bookmark   June 20, 2014 at 9:38PM
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Well, another evening of reiteration! The new layout is posted in form of chicken scratching, NOT TO SCALE.

Lenzai - my DH loved your idea of symmetrical opening into the kitchen.

Jennifer - very good point on the importance of cooking in peace without foot traffic around you.

So, the new layout. We eliminated the short wall and shortened the overall length of kitchen from 236 to 210 inches, which is fine. Now, when one enters the foyer, one will see an uninterrupted vista of the island leading to the booth and window. Very nice. Thank you for the idea.

We opt not to move the great room entrance because of the extra work.

On the left wall, in this order: frig, pantry+bookcase, wall oven/mw combo.

On the right wall: 15'' pullout, 30'' range, 48'' of drawer stacks with prep on top, 36'' sink, 24'' dw, 24'' drawer.

The island length will need to be sorted out but the important thing is that it should be positioned past the doors of both fridge, range, oven and dishwasher, so that not a single appliance opens into the island.

Advantages of this setup:
- nice visual from the foyer
- range is protected from traffic
- can open appliance doors without running into anything
- can unload groceries close to the entry door
- sink is closer to table
- fridge is close to cooking area. I don't care about the fridge being close to the table as we rarely get anything from the table when we're eating
- I am not sure the sink has to be open to anyone other than the person cooking or cleaning. We don't wash hands in the kitchen sink. Anyone wanting a glass of water can get it from the fridge.


- need to think about optimal place to store dishes close to the dishwasher and table
- it would be nifty to have some dish storage close to the fridge, too. Right now someone wanting a glass of something from the fridge would need to travel to get the glass. Which is fine if it has to be, but if it doesn't...
- need to figure out optimal placement of trash. Natural place is under the sink, but that means some traffic in the cooking aisle. As a compromise, I can put an additional small trash can for paper waste etc. in the 15'' pullout on the right of the range - so that someone wanting to toss someone unrelated to cooking or prepping doesn't bother the cook. On the other hand, it IS close to the range anyway.

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 10:50AM
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In addition, I will ask the designer to see if we can steal about 5'' from the adjacent bedrooms so the aisle clearances can be 40" instead of 38''.

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 10:59AM
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I've been following this post for some time, reading comments and mulling over ideas for your kitchen. It's been some time since I read all the posts but hopefully I've kept all details straight.

My first reaction was that your inspiration kitchen is light and bright and lovely. However, your planned kitchen has only 2 windows, approx 4' wide in total, for the entire large space. I'm not sure the net result will reflect your inspiration pic as well as you hope it will.

I agree with LL that a straight banquette bench is preferable over a U-shaped banquette. In a U-banquette, 2 people are always going to be "trapped" in the bench. Not so with a straight bench.

So here's my take on your inspiration and your kitchen.

I bumped out the entire wall to give you more room around the table and wider cabs at each end. This comes very close to your inspiration photo. Notice that I also decreased the depth of the cabs at each end ala the inspiration pic. This will make it easier to slide on and off the bench.

The table is a standard size so you won't need to go custom as your plan requires. That will save you money.

You have plenty of room for a much longer island so I moved the sink and DW to the island, freeing up the perimeter counter for cooking and baking prep. If you store dishes and glasses in the cab to the right of the sink, there's no need to cross the cooking zone to set the table (a good kid chore). It's also a quick trip to clear off the table, moving dirty dishes to the sink and DW, another good kid chore.

(I saw that you have a 4 yr old so maybe you'll only want plastic glasses in the base cab next to the sink until he or she is older. Glass glasses can go in the upper cab between fridge and cook top until then.)

The backside of the island has 12" deep cabs for pantry goods, small appliances and seldom used items.

There's a 18" wide pull-out pantry next to the wall oven cab. I put this at the end so that anyone coming around the corner won't accidentally run into an open oven door.

I moved the fridge to the end closest to the table, so that it's easy to grab items - milk, drinks, butter/margarine, ketchup, etc - to set on the table without crossing the cooking zone. It's also a pretty straight shot from the FR so it's easy for family to get drinks, too.

The MW is next to the fridge. The counter between fridge and cook top can be your snack zone. Have you considered a MW drawer? They are more money but they are easier for kids to reach and use than a MW above the counter. A MW below the counter is only a concern for a short time; 4 yr olds don't stay that age for long. ;-)

There is plenty of counter on either side of the cook top for prepping. There's also counter next to the oven for baking projects. "AG" next to the oven cab stands for appliance garage: store your stand mixer, etc here, for easy access.

I did not put upper cabs to the right of the oven so that the 36" of counter between adjacent uppers and oven cab will feel more open. It also eliminates the need for annoying upper corner cabs.

Aisles are counter to counter, counter to appliance front, and counter to wall. Numbers on counters are cab sizes (do not include counter overhang on island). I also allowed an inch for the pantry cab door so that your aisle is a true 42", not 41" in reality.

Based on your drawing, I assumed you are purchasing a free-standing, counter depth fridge. They are approx 29" deep from wall to door front (not handles). If your fridge is a standard depth, that will change clearances quite a bit but you could always recess the fridge slightly into the wall of the adjoining bedroom and still be okay. If you are purchasing a built-in fridge, you'll have a few additional inches of clearance than I spec'd on this plan.

I would not shrink the aisles to 38" on each side of an island, as your recent plans show. You have a nice sized space for your kitchen; there's no reason to be stingy on aisles, IMO.

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 1:45PM
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Lisa, thanks so much, great ideas.

However, the reality is interfering - we cannot bump out the entire wall. My zoning authority allows for only 10-ft bay windows and we are already at the minimum allowed setback at the point of the wall. The with of the booth is all that we can bump out.

I take your point about windows; we are planning to extend the windows to span the entire width of the booth. This needs structural engineer approval, so the drawing doesn't show that yet. With the 8 ft window, I think we'll be all set on the light.

Also, I don't want to do any upper cabinets at all, just something I decided I won't do. I want to do an entire wall of Moroccan-style tiles as a statement backsplash so need the space (like my second inspiration picture).


    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 3:12PM
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Okay - I went back to your original vision for your kitchen and tweaked it to function well and still give you the open feel you want. I have a large sink in my island with no regrets. I like to do most of my work facing the open room. I have prep space beside my stove, but usually use the island because working at the perimeter keeps my back to the room, making me feel isolated. Also if you have a little one you'll actually be able to watch them while you work, both prep and cleanup - mine just turned 5.

I have the DW in the island for several reasons. The first is that it allows you to have equally spaced wide drawers beside the stovetop - looks good. It also allows you to have the DW and dish drawer open @ the same time. Just take the dishes out and put in the drawer without even taking a step. It also allows people to help with clean up without getting in the way. The space it adds to the left of the sink is a great landing area for items from the fridge and pantry.

I added the full height shallow 15" pantry within easy reach of the island and fridge. You come in and easily put away the groceries. You may be able to put a small MW in this space as well. Plan a space for heavy small appliances you don't want to try to fish out of a drawer. The mixer comes to mind.

The island doesn't need to be that long, but I would maximize the work area. I have a 4'x8' island and it feels nice to work at. I do have seating for 1 across from the prep zone. I put it in for myself because I get tired of standing all the time while prepping foods that take a while. However, I usually have a little person with their butt firmly planted there chatting while I work :). I think your little person would be happy at the table as you'd be facing them while you work. You could also reduce the width to 36" and add a bank of shallow 12" pantry/bookshelves to the far wall. However I prefer it the way it is due to the symmetry with the window and table.

I would also recommend a full size fridge recessed into the closet area a bit. I have a 36" counter depth fridge and have not been able to give up the old fridge. It goes into the basement (I may stack my laundry to make room in my pantry/laundry room). There just never seems to be enough room for me, but I admit we drink a lot of milk at my house and I like to cook in large batches so I can have some meals frozen for times I don't want to cook. The term counter depth is also misleading as the fridge doors (several inches + door handles) still sticks out past the cabinets. I put it in that location because the one thing people are always coming to do while you are cooking is to get a drink. They can access the fridge and cups without coming near you, the stove or the oven.

Here is a link to ayerg73's kitchen that I find inspiring. You can see how the long island really works here.

I hope you like it :)

Here is a link that might be useful: ayerg73 Kitchen

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 3:57PM
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Wow, so many interesting ideas!

Here's one more...hope these help :) From Kitchen plans

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 5:03PM
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Hi Cam! Thanks! Will take a look.

Just a note that I see the inspiration kitchen you posted does have upper. I don't want them. No upper cabinets, no shelves, nothing but the backsplash.

Also, if you take a look at our layout, our kitchen is not open to the great room at all (except two doorways). So unless someone chooses to hang out in the kitchen while I work, I won't be able to watch anyone in the great room (and I don't want to.) I prefer kitchens separated from living spaces.

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 5:08PM
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Have you ever given skylights a thought? They would really brighten it all up. If I had to choose between pendants or skylights - I'd go with the skylights. Also add plenty of led pot-lights on dimmers and you're golden. The pendants would interrupt the view to the banquet and window area anyway.

The other idea to keep it light and open is to have the cabinets beside the banquet have glass on the sides as well as the front.

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 5:15PM
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We have skylights in the foyer and may add some over the island. Great idea on the glass cabs!

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 5:16PM
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Separate is good - I even have a door on my kitchen - and I shut it too! I just can't stand the dog around while I cook. As for the person wanting to hang out while you cook - I was thinking about your 4 yr old. My girl likes to hang out and colour while I cook. In the future I'm sure some homework will go on in the kitchen as well.

The inspiration pic was just to show how functional a long island galley style kitchen could work with the sink on the island. The shelves I put on the layout are optional (I personally put everything behind glass in my kitchen). So just remove the shelves and you have a nice open 9" wall. I also think that if you put cabinets or appliances on the left wall you won't get the feel from the banquet you want.

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 5:27PM
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RNmomof2 zone 5

Nadya, do you have a KD you are working with? I like the last plan you drew out but have a few thoughts. What about closing in the opening and making an archway or something similar to fit your home? It could still be centered on the table , framing it a little bit more. Maybe you are much neater than me, but I wouldn't want my kitchen that open to the entry way! ;-)

I think perhaps the drawer units need changed to 36 inch each. I though people had said on here, that the weight limits on the drawers was only 50-75 pounds including the drawer weight. So on a 4 foot drawer, you can store Kleenex in it to not be over the weight limit! Can anybody verify this? Seems like some one had the cabinet fall apart because the weight was too much, etc... Or perhaps rearrange for 30 inch drawers? My kitchen unfortunately is pre-drawers for dishes so I can't help.

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 9:25PM
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I didn't mean 48'' drawer stack, I meant 48'' worth of drawers :) Maybe a 30'' and a 18'', that sort of thing.

I do have a KD but it's a long story and I don't have confidence in her kitchen judgment. She is a friend of the family though, and I have no choice. So I am using her to draw the plans for the rest of the addition, and making up my own kitchen space. She is basically just telling me how wide and how long the kitchen will be, and minding the structural stuff.

Now you ladies up and did it, I am torn. I thought I drew and absolutely perfect plan with two kitchen walls,, symmetrical openings and a skinny island, and DH loved it. Which means a lot. But I was iffy on the skimpy aisle clearances and on the travel between the frig and the dishes.

And now Cam drew something even perfecter, and I like it. I like the proximity of all major work stations. I have to think about whether I can accept an island with anything on it (I have a prejudice against islands with stuff on it...I always thought of an island as a glorious uninterrupted slab of workspace).

When your little one colors or does homework on the island with a sink, does it tend to get all wet? That's my fear.

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Sun, Jun 22, 14 at 16:16

    Bookmark   June 21, 2014 at 10:17PM
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Here's my island (4' x 8'). As you can see I'm partial to the layout I provided :). It works well because the sink is really large (Interior dimensions: 27-Inch x 15-Inch
Basin depth: 8-Inch). You can have dirty things from prep stacked in it and still have room to fill a pot or wash some veggies. There is about a foot of space between the sink and the edge of her work zone. I've never had a problem with water getting everywhere. I also have garbage and compost in touch open drawers under the sink (love, love, love this!). I can even keep my little motion activated soap dispenser in there. I can wash my hands without having to touch anything (my water easily turns on with a clean wrist so I didn't bother with a tapmaster as originally planned). I do have a garbage in a spot outside my prep zone too though.

As you can see from the picture I have a good expanse of prep area on the island and a second cook can work either at the end of the island (more social) or at the perimeter beside the cooktop.

    Bookmark   June 22, 2014 at 8:37AM
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Thank you for the pic - really helpful. You know, I think I like your suggestions most of all. I have asked the KD to redraw based on the sketch and will post here when she's done. Except I think I want to get rid of the short L side (where the pantry is), and incorporate the pantry on the long run of cabinets/appliances. I am going to minimize the closet next door so we have more space to play with, and probably won't use a 36'' range (so the centering can be iffy). But I really think this should work. My KD will hate me but so what!

    Bookmark   June 23, 2014 at 5:29PM
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Like this:

    Bookmark   June 23, 2014 at 11:15PM
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A few considerations.
1. The fridge can't sit up against the wall (you won't be able to open it). Putting the 15" pantry to the right of the fridge solves this. (check ikeas specs - I think they do pantry's in 15" and 24" - I couldn't find an 18"). Also plan for some space for either side of the fridge for panels and air flow space. My fridge required 1/2" clearance on the sides for air circulation.
2. A 2nd pantry to the left of the oven stack to help pull the oven away from the people at the table. This creates pantry's at opposite ends, but the one by the oven can be used for non food items like the mixer, blender, extra lg pots etc. These things don't fit in drawers.
3. Are you having a range with oven or a cooktop? If it's a cooktop I'd still use a 36" base cabinet with a 30" cooktop (in the photo mine is only 30" too)
4. The DW may work well to the right of the sink as well. Dishes could be stored to the right of the cooktop/left of the fridge for easy access from both. This creates a larger prep area if the island is 8' long. If you have the DW to the left of the sink I think you need the extra foot on the island.

Hope this helps :)

    Bookmark   June 24, 2014 at 6:30PM
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Hi Cam,

thanks again! How about this - I tried to put my notes on the image.

- remove the short end of the L completely, so the kitchen is basically a one-line galley with the island. You will look straight onto the island from the entry foyer

- move the cabinet run as far as possible toward the booth, reducing the width of alcove in the adjacent bedroom, thus gaining some space

- I think I like the idea of DW to the left of the sink as it is removed from the cooking zone. If I put it to the right of the sink, it's too close to the range plus they open into each other. I tried to imagine what it would be like to have 3 ft of counter space to the right of the sink and it feels plenty.

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 10:11AM
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Two island looks nice in magazines, but in real life (as mentioned earlier) it can be rather messy. Are you sure you want to see it, as you walk in the front door?

Second, what are you going to do with the long wall? You'll be staring at it as you prep (no room for seating on your plan) so do you plan to have art? It seems you're leaving a lot of storage potential 'on the table' with that bare wall.

Since you like a closed off kitchen, I'm surprised you want to see it from the entry. Are you sure you don't want to take down part of that long wall and see the island from the living room? Do you have any inspiration pictures, besides the seating area?

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 10:40AM
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@Lavender lass

All great points. This is what I think:

- the thing about "walking in the front door" is that my foyer has no sources of light other than the skylight (which barely gives any). Right now it looks into the glass door of the existing wall, which will be demolished. So if the future window/booth area will be closed off by the short end of the L, I will be always walking into a darkish room, and I think I will not like it.

- Definitely do not want to take down the wall into the living room.

- I can paint the long wall a fun color or put some art. I'm not concerned about staring at it - when I prep, I stare at my knife and my fingers, not the wall in front of me. Depending on what length the island ends up being, I can certainly incorporate a couple of stools in the middle a la cam's island pic. I can also hang a high shelf on that wall for cookbooks and knickknacks.

- It's all about tradeoffs. The thing about putting storage on the long wall is that if that happens, the island will have to be skinnier, and the aisles will get narrower. Do I want additional storage badly enough to put up with that?

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 11:08AM
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Stools at the island, a shelf for cookbooks on the long wall, maybe a fun paint color and pictures...sounds like my type of kitchen. Perhaps a few pegs for fancy aprons? Okay, now I'm getting too vintage, right? :)

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 11:22AM
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A girl after my own heart!

Since you're all into vintage, I'll let you know I have a collection of small mirrors in patinated frames and I was planning to paint the wall turquoise or light blue, and put them up - to reflect the beautiful cook (me) and the fabulous tiles :)

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Wed, Jun 25, 14 at 14:41

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 11:27AM
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I've been following this thread and I think you're going to have a gorgeous kitchen - love that nook! I also love how in the latest plan the range wall ends up being symmetric.

Just to throw in my 2 cents... I get your desire to have the kitchen more open to the foyer to get more light in there. But, I think by completely removing that wall you'd lose the sense of separation between the two spaces and when you walk in the house you'd feel like you're walking straight into the kitchen. The kitchen would feel less cozy, too. My suggestion would be to make a large cased or arched entrance to the kitchen that's centered on the booth. Looks like it could be 6 to 8 ft wide or so. You'd have to narrow the current doorway from the foyer to the family room a little, but I think you said that's possible. That corner that's open to both the foyer and kitchen looks a bit awkward, anyway (at least on paper.) Since you're planning on moving that front kitchen wall back a bit to match up with the closet, the reduction in that family room opening will be pretty minimal. You'd still see the island, too. Just a thought!

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 1:47PM
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Oh, I like that idea! The cased opening would be great.

I like the turquoise wall and mirrors, too :)

    Bookmark   June 25, 2014 at 4:36PM
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All right!! Good people, thank you all for your kind contributions. Here is the latest. Note the massive improvements due to your advice! Note symmetrical drawer stacks around the range. Note reduced length of kitchen and seamless extension of the kitchen border wall to the hallway. Note the cased opening :) Note the much bigger island!

Note there are still some tweaks to be made, as noted on the image. Pantry and fridge will be flipped and pantry will be resized to 15'' to match the one by the WO. The savings of 6'' will be donated to range :) making it 36'' in width and costing much more, I'm sure :) And of course, no one is using 48'' drawers, duh. And the knee-high wall is not happening, that's just my KD pushing me to get some visual blockage of the counter from the foyer area. Not happening.

Now the only real dilemma I have is to figure out the best placement of DW in relation to the dish drawer to the R of the range. My goal is to locate them in such a manner as to make the transfer of dishes from DW to DD as painless as possible - for instance, like this: natural cherry kitchen/097_zpsf5593f1b.jpg.html?sort=2&o=46.

So I'm thinking that the only way to achieve that is to extend the island toward the foyer so that the DW, when it opens, clears the DD.

Option 2, probably, is to leave the island length as is and locate the DW on the end of the island opening toward the foyer. This will probably add a few steps to the DD trip.

Option 3 is to move the DD to the L of the range and the DW to the right of the sink. But that would place the DW squarely in the prep zone and that's a No No No.

What do you think? What am I missing?

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Tue, Jul 1, 14 at 10:04

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 9:51AM
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Here's the pantry and fridge swapped and the 36" cooktop/range. Hopefully this will help with DW placement :) From Kitchen plans

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 2:03PM
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Thank you! Clearly, the only way to make it work is to make the island longer by a foot and a half or so..

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 2:21PM
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Why not switch clean up and prep? Put the clean up toward the table and prep toward the frig? Put the dw on the right side of the sink/booth side of the island. Move the sink down toward the booth on the island as well. Have the dish drawer to the L of the range. That puts clean up and dishes closer to table. The dw countertop can serve as dish drying/dirty dish landing.

your 36" counter/cab is down toward the frig end of the island. That's good landing prep space. No dirty dish/drying dishes. No dw in the way of frig access.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 2:33PM
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Jennifer, in that configuration (DW on the end of the island nearest the booth), DW and the dish drawer will be directly opposite one another, wouldn't they? I won't be able to open them at the same time.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 2:38PM
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I like Jennifer's idea! Just place the DD to the left of sink and that will be less intrusive in your main work area. Something like this? From Kitchen plans

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 2:47PM
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Isn't 36'' quite a bit to trek with dishes? I was really hoping to get an arrangement where they are next to each other, either together or across the aise..

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 2:50PM
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I actually do like Jennifer's idea, too, as it makes sense to keep dish storage and washing close to the table, and not have to walk so far. But I do think that if DW and DD are across from the aisle from each other, I won't be able to open both at the same time.

I wonder how long the island can be pushed out...what about

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Tue, Jul 1, 14 at 15:13

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 2:55PM
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Crazy idea: what about putting dishes into the wall oven cabinet? IKEA has lots of options with drawers. Have to think of alternative placement for microwave.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 3:18PM
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Is DD dish storage? I thought it was a dishwasher if not all your dirty dishes would fit into a single dishwasher.

If that's the case, then I'd have dish storage on the other side of the sink and across. Upper cabinets would really help, here :)

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 3:26PM
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I didn't remember the size of your aisle from cooktop to island. Often the aisle is wide enough to accommodate both dd and dw being open opposite.

Where will glasses be stored? Coffee mugs etc? I know you preferred no uppers, but will you have sufficient everyday storage without any upper cabs flanking the cooktop/vent?

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 3:54PM
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The aisles are 42 inches so I don't think both dish drawer and dishwasher can be opened at the same time.

But I do love your idea of moving the dishwasher to the right of the sink closer to the table. So I'm giving serious thought of moving the dish storage into the wall oven tower drawers.

I think I'm good on storage. I am determined not to have uppers so would rather edit storage than add uppers.

    Bookmark   July 1, 2014 at 4:21PM
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it looks great. are you doing any recessed lighting?

    Bookmark   July 2, 2014 at 9:24AM
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I like lavender lass's last sketch. Just a quick thought - since the island is 4' wide you could have the DW open on the short side of the island (toward the table). The dishes could then be located to the right of the DW opening to the table side as well.

    Bookmark   July 2, 2014 at 9:48AM
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This is what I'm thinking by way of island structure. The reason is I really want to have a look of symmetry on the side that faces the wall, which is the side that people will see. So that explains the 12'' cabinet to open toward the booth (to be symmetrical with the bookshelf side on the other end.)

The working side of the island doesn't have to be symmetrical since it's not exactly on display. I put in 24'' and 12'' cabs near the sink because I think a 36'' drawer stack is too wide to be structurally sound.

Then on the open side it's symmetrical like this: 12, 30, 24, 30, 12. Clever, no :))

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Wed, Jul 2, 14 at 11:00

    Bookmark   July 2, 2014 at 10:56AM
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I like the bookcase facing the entry! No stools, though?

Is the trash going in the 12" wide base cabinet? Is that wide enough or are you putting it under the sink?

I like the overall layout a lot. As for the island, it is clever...but it's facing the wall, so who's going to see it? Since the kitchen is not open to the great room...I'd still want some stools, so I could perch and visit with the cook :)

    Bookmark   July 2, 2014 at 2:44PM
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There is no room for stools, unfortunately, with the 42'' aisle. If I put stools in, you wouldn't be able to use that aisle. Once the thing is in, if it looks like they CAN be fitted in, we can reconsider.

The thing is, though, that to put it two stools would require 48 inches of counterspace, correct? So with the overall length of 108 inches and 24 of them already committed to end 12'' cabinets, it's 108 (total) -48 (2 stools) -24 (end cabs) =36. This means the storage on the back of the island will be cut to basically 2 18'' drawer stacks, instead of big drawers now. Big loss.

I think trash will go under the sink - would be 18'' wide. I thought I would put my cutting boards into the 12'' ft cabinet. They are all so big.

You can visit with the cook!! There's an 8-ft wide booth open for your visiting pleasure!!! :)

You guys are all so wonderful.

This post was edited by nadya1972 on Wed, Jul 2, 14 at 15:34

    Bookmark   July 2, 2014 at 3:29PM
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