please help w/ installed cabs:are these huge fillers necessary?

Skyangel23June 26, 2014

Hi,
Our white cabinets are being installed now. We just had enough in the budget to do white and full overlay shaker, but couldn't afford the lazy susan corners. I knew fillers would be required, but had no idea they would look like THIS. Do they really need to be 3" on each side??? They are on the kitchen design, and I questioned the kitchen designer, but she said they are required and that I would barely notice them. I not only notice these, I think they look horrible! Are there any remedies or am I stuck with this?

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Skyangel23

another pic

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 10:33PM
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romy718

I don't know if they are necessary but I think they will be much less noticeable once your countertops are installed. Love your glass cabinets.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 10:45PM
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annkh_nd

The one on the angled cabinet may be a bit big, but the other one looks just right. Remember that you need enough clearance for pulls/knobs on the drawers.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 10:52PM
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silken1

I too agree that once the counter top is on, it won't look so obvious.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 10:57PM
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GreenDesigns

Pulls and knobs and drawers won't work without them.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 11:32PM
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greenhaven

romy and ann both said exactly what I was going to say. Your kitchen will be gorgeous1

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 11:47PM
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lascatx

Do you need to hear it again? ;-)

What they said.

    Bookmark   June 26, 2014 at 11:52PM
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jennifer132

Ditto.

It's stressful to see each small piece go in, especially when it looks a bit odd/out of place. It will come together, and taken as a whole it will be lovely and functional.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 12:05AM
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cloud_swift

It depends how big your knob or handle hardware is. When you pull open the drawer, it needs to not hit the handle on the other side and when you open the door 90 degrees you don't want it to hit. We had our filler cut down to 2 1/2". The drawer would probably have cleared with 2" but when you open the cabinet door the handle touches the handle on the other side when it is a little past 90 degrees.

In the right angle corner, most of the filler you have is needed and it looks fine. In the corner where the cabinets meet at a much greater than 90 degree angle, I think you could have had no filler or just a tiny bit. That is the one that looks big because the 6" of combined filler is so visible and when you pull open a drawer it isn't heading toward the drawer on the other side.

I'd be annoyed about the filler on the wide angle corner..

Here is ours:

We have a blind cabinet in the corner accessed through the sink cabinet. That still left a little filler hole a couple of inches wide. I was tempted to put in a hidden panel to access the secret compartment behind the filler, but I couldn't think of anything to put there so I didn't. :^)

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 12:23AM
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Trebruchet

As a contractor, this is a perfect example of why you'd just like people to leave until the job is finished.

Relax. Everything is fine.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 12:29AM
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akl_vdb

It will be fine once it's all done. Need room to open the doors!

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 7:29AM
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jakuvall

As noted the size is correct, you could have shaved a fraction of an inch. What should be done though with full overlay is the addition of filler overlays (or build ups). They are pieces with finished edges applied over fillers, leaving a standard reveal. They should be placed so the face is even with the doors which means that bumpers need to be put on before they are attached.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 8:43AM
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Linelle

I wouldn't have noticed or thought there was anything wrong with it.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 9:16AM
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scpalmetto

My kitchen is so tight I would love to have those fillers. Now that all is done I am sorry I did not insist on a few more inches of fillers here and there.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 9:22AM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

perhaps .... part of what you might not be seeing ... or realizing... is the symmetry with that above ...

as you know.. its a small space.. but if those spacers werent there... the cabinets above.. would look skewed.. one way or the other ...

i think ... they did they best they could ... in the space given ... in regard to both ... without be able to line them up perfectly ....

and.. as they said.. without the counter there.. its all vastly more apparent .. for NOT seeing all the structure below ... but once that disappears... i bet the 'flow' ... will help it all ...

relax.. is going to be fine ...

ken

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 9:31AM
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OOTM_Mom

...is that...the ...equivalent...of...stuttering while...typing? Lol. No offense meant, its just the first thing I thought when I saw all the dots and I thought it was funny. Or maybe it's a similar hiccup to the one that turns all the inch marks into foot marks. (Double quotes to single quotation marks)

As for the cabinet spacing, I think it will be different once counters are in, but of course it's a pain to change anything at that point. I think it looks good now, so will only get even better!

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 9:50AM
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brightm

It's hard to see in cloud_swift's pic because of the beautiful variation in the cherry, but you can see the filler overlay/buildup that jakuvall talked about in that pic, I think.

I've ordered them for the places where I'll have fillers, I think. It's one of the nagging things that I have thought about as we added this or that, but not enough to go line by line through my invoice before they get here.

I'm assuming they're something that can be added after the fact if desired, right?

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 10:14AM
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jellytoast

"..is that...the ...equivalent...of...stuttering while...typing? Lol. No offense meant ..."

I hope the poster doesn't take offense but rather takes your observation as helpful and constructive criticism. It is really hard to read with that odd punctuation.

Re: the fillers, I don't think they look that bad, though the angled one looks like it doesn't have to be THAT big.

"As a contractor, this is a perfect example of why you'd just like people to leave until the job is finished."

Isn't it better that a customer discovers something that they might possibly want changed BEFORE the countertops go in and it's too late? I've witnessed too many contractor screw- ups to just leave and come back when the job is completed. Contractors are not perfect and they make mistakes. Plenty of them! Better to catch them before moving on to the next phase of the job.

This post was edited by jellytoast on Fri, Jun 27, 14 at 12:51

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 12:45PM
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Linelle

OOTM and Jellytoast, thank you so much.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 12:54PM
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kompy

I agree. Filler overlays are optional....but can make a huge difference in appearance. Definitely get them!

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 2:33PM
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shannonaz

I have filler overlays and they make all the difference! Luckily they are easy to add, I would think!

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 4:18PM
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shannonaz

I don't have great pics, but here are my overlays:

In my bathroom:

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 4:30PM
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snookums2

They do look unusually large to me. It probably doesn't help that it is such a short run, so that cabinet is framed by them. I would consider having them reduce the one on the right angled counter and add the overlays.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 5:21PM
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live_wire_oak

Overlays need to be used with full width fillers. They are profiled all the way around and can't really be successfully trimmed in the middle of a run. So, you have to have a full 3" filler for each side of the angle to be able to use 2 filler overlays there. The fillers can't be trimmed.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 5:23PM
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Skyangel23

Ok, sorry for the delay in responding. I was out shopping for carpet all day, and though I read all your posts on my phone, both yesterday and today, I could only post now.
First, thank you for all the support. You really talked me down off the ledge.

So this is a semi-custom build, so I did not have freedom on where to go or the brand of cabinets to order. I talked to the KD today and she said that because the cabinets come in three inch increments, she could only do 3" filler or no filler, and the angle of course needed at least some filler.

So if there is nothing to do about them, then I would definitely like overlays like Shannonaz and cloudswift (beautiful cabinets, btw, and thanks for sharing pics). However, the brand is Merillat, and the KD said they do not offer them.

Is there anyway to DIY some full overlays for these angled corners? They are full 3" on each side, so as live_wire_oak said, they should work in that respect. I can order the cabinet paint color, if that would help.

I just think with the full overlay doors that we paid for to not have huge gaps, and we now have huge gaps.... I do believe you all that it will be less noticeable after the counter top goes in, but I think it will still be noticeable. I know I will keep noticing it.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 6:08PM
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cloud_swift

Yes, we have a filler overlay. I don't have a close-up enough picture to make it obvious. Basically, it is a piece of cherry which is fastened to the filler to make the surface in the corner flush with the drawer fronts and doors.

The filler is the lighter wood in the corner. (The piece for it was ordered and installed after we discussed concern about the corner not looking right so the cherry hadn't darkened yet. The filler aged to match the cabinets over a couple of months.)

If it was my kitchen, I'd want the filler on the wide angle to be much less - maybe half the filler on the right angle. That corner doesn't need much filler to allow for clearances. When you look at the cabinet between the two corners, you see twice the amount of filler to the right as to the left because on the right you see two filler pieces. It looks unbalanced the way it is.

Trebruchet, your comment is condescending to your customers. I wouldn't work with a contractor who gave me that attitude. As jellytoast mentions, there were mistakes we caught and corrected that would have cost much more to correct if we hadn't been there and they had to be corrected later.

When we had the original fireplace demo'ed, we found that a roof joist had been cut through and a section removed because it was in the way of the chimney - no boards to connect the cut ends to adjacent joists or anything - just ends of the joists hanging on either side of the hole. There were also wire junctions just hanging in air behind the hearth. That's a contractor who counted on his clients not being there while the work was underway and just seeing the finished project.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 6:24PM
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shannonaz

The fillers in my kitchen were trimmed and mitered in the middle on site...

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 6:29PM
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jakuvall

They can be added later. In that case in painted kitchens, they need to be packed out with wood instead of bumpers. Glued and held with a minimum of pins preferably 23 gauge. Hi end brands make them already thicker so no packing is needed to align with doors.

In corners I order wider than 3" in to avoid issues with cutting. Many companies offer special ones for corners, I don't get those, installers hate em.

Don't use them on fillers an inch or narrower, or on traditional overlay.

I suppose they are "optional" as Kompy says but I always include them, always, just like molding. It's one of those things that may be missing when you're trying to figure out why one quote is less than another.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 8:21PM
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Skyangel23

So, jakuvall or anyone else, can fillers be added from a different brand, or custom made by a local cabinet shop, as long as we have matching paint?

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 8:47PM
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GreenDesigns

No trim really looks like original cabinet compant supplied trim. The ''paint'' used on cabinets isn't really paint. It's a high solids lacquer that needs to be sprayed and then clearcoated to really match. Filler overlays have the exat same outside prfile of your door rather than being a random piece of wood.

Filler overlays aren't expensive. Get them from your cabinet company.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 9:48PM
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jellytoast

"Filler overlays aren't expensive. Get them from your cabinet company."

The OP's cabinet company doesn't supply them, so she's looking for alternatives.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 10:51PM
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GreenDesigns

Even the cheapest lines have filler overlays.

    Bookmark   June 27, 2014 at 11:55PM
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Skyangel23

I looked at the Merillat Classic specs. It looks like they have overlays for ONE wood door style (and one thermofoil), in Somerton Hill. None of their other door styles.

That's just irritating.

Mine is Portrait, a very plain shaker style. I could get the overlay in the same factory applied color, but I believe the edges are more detailed, and I don't know if that would look funny. Thoughts?
Here is the only overlay option they have, also in a single three:

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 12:27AM
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Skyangel23

And the pictures of my door/drawer style are above, and here.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 12:30AM
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ken_adrian Adrian MI cold Z5

stuttering ... naw...

its my version of guy talk .. leave out all the superfluous ... lol

no offense taken...

have a great day

ken

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 7:33AM
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detroit_burb

I had the carpenter make filler overlays from a 12" base door front. It looks more built in/custom than the way it was before I insisted on the overlay.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 8:58AM
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kompy

I would order two replacement drawer fronts for a 30" wide cabinet....and have them cut to fit. It should work fine....reveals might be off depending on the cabinet line and how they are built.....But I think this is your best option!

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 10:19AM
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snookums2

I would still have them trim back the fillers on the right with the wide angle so it reads like the left side. It looks much too wide and different than the left.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 11:28AM
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jellytoast

" I would still have them trim back the fillers on the right with the wide angle so it reads like the left side. It looks much too wide and different than the left."

I agree with snookums. To me, trimming that one wide angle would make the whole thing look better.

I like detroit_burbs and kompys ideas, too!

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 12:27PM
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GreenDesigns

Page 92 in the spec book. Base filler overlays. Easily found on the net, so I'd expect the KD to dust off the copy of the spec book and quit relying on trying to find things in 20/20. Every designer should design with their spec book open.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 2:06PM
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jakuvall

Oops Green- gotta read the small print- pic attached

IF your dealer has access to Merrilat Masterpiece it can be ordered from them, colors will be the same. Else use Kompy's solution.
Redoing?- seriously- that is a can of worms, affect the layout along the angled wall AND I assume you signed off on the layout before ordering?

If 1/2" discrepancy is going to drive someone crazy they need to work in a line that allows sizes. That is not the case here. Add the overlays and it will be fine.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 3:03PM
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Skyangel23

Thank you ALL for helping me figure out a way through this.
Jakuval, yes I think trimming them would affect the layout negatively. I've posted the peninsula below, and shortening one end will affect the other. ...

I am with a builder who is not custom and wouldn't allow me to go elsewhere for cabinets. Also, although I signed off on the layout I expressed my concern about the size of the fillers a couple times before signing off, and I was told there was nothing that could be done and I would barely notice them. Not being a kitchen design professional, I did not know any better.

Snookups, the fillers on the left and right sides of the middle cabinet are the same size, but the right angle makes them look smaller on the left. The 45 degree angle makes them look huge, imo.

Kompy, excuse my ignorance, but if they cut one side of a drawer front installed sideways, won't that side be raw wood then?

Detroit burb, so did your installer cut the door lengthwise into a few peices? What about the raw edges? Just paint them and they won't be very noticeable?

Jackuval, she does have access to the Masterpiece line. Do you know what door front and paint finish is comparable to the Portrait door in the Classic line in Chiffon paint?

Here is the full peninsula, with two (!!!) areas with the overlarge fillers. I think trimming them would mess up the layout. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

thank you all for your help. I want to go to her on Monday knowing what we're going to do to make this better.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 4:25PM
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Skyangel23

detroit_burb, can you share pictures of your custom overlays? :-)

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 4:48PM
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jakuvall

I don't know door or color, but your KD should or can find out. Color is likely the same name in both. The catalogs are on line if you want to take a look.

Overlays in corners always need to be trimmed, always. The overlays are placed against each other in the corner. A reveal is left between the fillers and the adjacent doors ; no reveal is used between the two corner overlays-so NO raw edges will show. In corners I always order them for 6" and plan on having them cut.

Your link didn't show up but I had taken a quick look at some of your earlier layout threads. My guess is that the KD was likely correct that "nothing can be done" without affecting something else in the layout.

The only alternative would have been sizing cabinets- even then you would have at least 2.5" fillers in square corner. Now you could get away with a smaller filler in the angled corner but then you would be looking at the relationship of that filler to the square corner- pick your poison. I suppose you could pick a point of view and adjust the angled corner to appear to match the others- from one point of view but that is silly.

I'm as finicky as anyone and do lots of hi end full custom specking to 1/16", even my semi brand allows 1/8's (I'm spoiled :)
I'd size the fillers in the angled corner based on the square corner and keeping them all equal. I might cheat them all down to 2 1/2" but no less. It will be just as it should be when your done.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 4:51PM
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Skyangel23

jakuvall,
thank you so much. I don't know why that pic didn't post, I'll try again. I will definitely be talking with the KD Monday morning.
Now, can these filler overlays be put on after the countertop is in (laminate), or does it have to be before? It could delay things a bit, so I just want to be prepared. :-)

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 7:43PM
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cloud_swift

Our overlays were put in after the counter was on. As I mentioned, the GC didn't order them to begin with and ordered them when we felt the corner didn't look right without them. I didn't remember that but when I was looking to see if I had a closer picture of them, the only close up of the corner I found had the counter on and the overlays not there.

Our overlays came in a standard width and the GC's installer trimmed the width to fit. The unfinished edges of the fillers are against each other so you only see finished wood.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 8:36PM
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Trebruchet

"Trebruchet, your comment is condescending to your customers."

cloud_swift:

Fair enough.

Perhaps I should have qualified my perspective a bit. I do mostly repairs and it's really better if customers don't watch, because things usually look much worse before and during than after.

Sometimes I have to finish breaking a top to decontaminate and be able to administer enough adhesive. People flip if you do this in front of them. They think I'm nuts until it's finished and they can't find the crack.

    Bookmark   June 28, 2014 at 8:47PM
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Skyangel23

Okay, last question so I know exactly what I need when I talk to the KD. So, I want to do filler overlays for sure on the three lower corners. For the uppers, there is one right angle corner. Should I request an overlay for that too?

    Bookmark   June 29, 2014 at 12:57PM
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susanlynn2012

Shannaz, I just love your kitchen so much!

What granite is your counter? I also love your cabinets. Can you please share information about them. Do they have a glaze? They really look perfect with the counters. Thank you!

Your fillers look intentional and look right! I think the post just needs the counter to be installed and the fillers will no longer bother her.

    Bookmark   June 29, 2014 at 1:19PM
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Skyangel23

Just a quick bump because I still would like to know if I should request a filler overlay for the one upper 90 degree corner. Thanks for all the help so far!!!

    Bookmark   June 30, 2014 at 11:33AM
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jakuvall

yes-two

    Bookmark   June 30, 2014 at 12:25PM
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Skyangel23

Hi,
So, updated. My lovely kitchen designer (loosely labeled) has stated that the cabinet company (Merillat) will not warranty the cabinets if she cuts into drawer fronts to "cut and paste" filler overlays, and that I signed off on the cabinet plans so any changes I want to make should be done after closing on the house.
Okay. So.
It looks like my choices are to a) use Merillat Classic's ONLY full overlay style, Somerton Hill, which is a different style then my own, pics further up in the thread. I looked at the Masterpiece line and couldn't find a match to the Chiffon paint color.
OR after close either B) hire someone or c) try to DIY the drawer fronts turned sideways and hacked into filler overlays plan.
I am very appreciative of any and all advice.
Thank you.

    Bookmark   July 2, 2014 at 7:03PM
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jakuvall

Horse hockey, the warranty would only be void on the cut parts, and even then...nonsense.

    Bookmark   July 2, 2014 at 7:58PM
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Skyangel23

Ok, I am pushing back in continuing to ask for the overlays. Now, for my own edification, with the 45 degree angles, did we really need the fillers at all? Or would a filler on one side only have worked? I know we needed them for the 90 corner.

This builder's kitchen designer has not seemed to know what she was doing at other times, and I'm wondering if I have any grounds to argue that the fillers should be shortened/removed altogether, even if that means ordering larger cabinets in a couple of places?

I think the cabinet doors have 3/16" reveals between doors. They are not as tight as some other brands.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2014 at 9:41AM
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kompy

Ohmigosh this is ridiculous. Tell her you will pay for two 30" drawer fronts and just get them ordered and you will have someone put them on for you.

If she still fusses with you....find another Merillat dealer and order from them. This is not that complicated and she should be taking care of you.

Are tops on yet? You can still apply them, just more invasive....using a nailier and filling the nail holes.

Because of the bumper pads on the doors make the doors stick out a tad deeper....you might want to shim them out some to be totally flush....your choice. Maybe a 1/4" thick scrap toekick piece placed behind it.

Without seeing the rest of your kitchen....it can be tough at times to get the filler reveals the same. But it can be done...takes a bit of math calculations. But what is done in your kitchen isn't that bad and will look fine once you get the overlays done. Don't go with a different edge profile that what you doors have...that will look awful.

What I normally do, to preserve interior cabinet space. For the angled cabinet, I will do 3" wide stiles. This just reduces the opening and your side cabinet rails become the filler. Then the cabinets adjacent, I usually order loose fillers with a full overlay cabinet. If partial overlay or inset, I will do an extended stile.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2014 at 12:31PM
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Skyangel23

Kompy,
Thank you for responding. Tops are not on yet, which is why I thought it would be easier now. It's good to know that it can be done after, since this KD is being so difficult. I did get my builder in on it yesterday, so we will see if he falls on our side or sticks with the KD who says she can't do it.

If she still won't, I will follow your advice and order the drawer fronts from another Merillat dealer.

Thanks. -Kyla

    Bookmark   July 3, 2014 at 12:45PM
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jakuvall

"I'm wondering if I have any grounds to argue that the fillers should be shortened/removed altogether, even if that means ordering larger cabinets in a couple of places?"
No, not really.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2014 at 12:46PM
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Skyangel23

ok, thanks. What I needed to know. I will focus on the filler overlays. I think that will help immensely.

    Bookmark   July 3, 2014 at 1:10PM
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ajc71

Much easier and cleaner to do before counters are in, and then messing with something that is face nailed and puttied

3/16 is on the larger side, but I do not know the specs that your cab company follows....

    Bookmark   July 3, 2014 at 1:21PM
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Skyangel23

Since the reveals are 3/16th anyway, wider than other brands, are fillers necessary in those two 45 degree angles at all? I've seen several pics on houzz and pinterest where it appears no fillers were used in 45 degree angles. Maybe I will ask them to remove the filler and pay for the larger cabinets myself. This was a lot of money and I want it to be right.

    Bookmark   July 6, 2014 at 3:53PM
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snookums2

I found pictures where they were not used or very wide too. Keep working at the problem. I think you are probably right that they don't have to be like that and replacing a cabinet would be worth it, imo. I agree that they look unusually wide. Too much money to not get things right, the way you like it. Keep all the other angles in mind as you plan.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Mon, Jul 7, 14 at 1:07

    Bookmark   July 6, 2014 at 11:49PM
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gr8daygw

Here is the way mine are installed. It only has a filler on one side.

    Bookmark   July 7, 2014 at 7:49AM
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PRO
Sophie Wheeler

Yes, but if that DW had a protruding handle, that install wouldn't work. You coukdn't open the drawers r te DW. The fillers ARE necessary.

    Bookmark   July 7, 2014 at 7:55AM
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snookums2

That's not the situation with the op's kitchen though.

She will have to verify clearances with her own layout and hardware selections.

Ask the KD the reason they did this in your particular kitchen.

    Bookmark   July 7, 2014 at 8:59AM
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Skyangel23

Thank you all for continuing to help me. I totally understand the clearances for 90 degree corners. But for 45 degree corners ... when I look at my peninsula angles I don't see how the doors could bump into each other any more than a straight run.
Door hardware is knobs for the doors and typical cup pulls for drawers. However, those parts of the doors/drawers would never be near each other when opened at a 45 degree angle, unlike actual 90 degree corners.

The KD does not seem to be very knowledgeable. When I questioned her during the design phase because it didn't make sense to me then either, she just said fillers are required on all corners on two sides and they can't be cut down because cabs come in 3" sizes. There was no distinction made between a 90 or 45 corner.

At the very most it seems one 3" on one side would have been the most needed, such as gr8day (thx for the pic) and Shannonz's.

Here is an example of one of the pics I found online w/no fillers it appears on 45 corners. It seems like this would work fine, unless I'm missing something here. Again, we paid a lot of money to these people and I feel like it lowers the aesthetic look of the cabinets, not to mention if I could have had 3" larger cabinets on one or both sides of the two 45 degree angles.

    Bookmark   July 7, 2014 at 11:31AM
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Skyangel23

Or this:

    Bookmark   July 7, 2014 at 11:32AM
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Skyangel23

Quick update: The builder's KD finally agree to set up a meeting with me to discuss the cabinet issues. Any last minute advice on what I should say is greatly appreciated!

Countertops were messed up and will be replaced, but even with them on I think the fillers are still excessively large and unattractive, and noticeable.

    Bookmark   July 15, 2014 at 12:44PM
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Skyangel23

Update:
I wanted to thank everyone for their help re: fillers. KD used the idea that Kompy (thank you so much!) gave me about using 30" drawer fronts as filler overlays and went ahead and did the 45 degree angles. It looks so much better and I am very happy (well, wish I didn't have the fillers at all but it is a good solution without spending a ton more money).
Interestingly, they didn't do the 90 angle, I guess because I wasn't complaining about that one. We will find someone to do that after close.
Thank you so much for all the creative ideas and brilliant minds helping folks like me who need it.

    Bookmark   August 22, 2014 at 8:49PM
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