Need feedback on kitchen design

citadelcadetJune 6, 2014

Hi

We are remodeling our kitchen and wanted to get some feedback on a design from our kitchen designer.

I am attaching pics of the new layout from the kitchen designer plus a pic of the style we are aiming for as well

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citadelcadet

Pic #2

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 3:17PM
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citadelcadet

Pic #3

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 3:18PM
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citadelcadet

next- pic #4

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 3:19PM
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citadelcadet

A pic of the style we are going for

White Shaker

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 3:20PM
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rmtdoug

First, I would love to hear the KD's reasoning for the T-shaped island. What is your gut reaction to it?

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 4:11PM
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bluerdgddrs

Your measurements are not clear when you click to enlarge. I'm wondering what your aisle clearances are?

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 4:29PM
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rmtdoug

Blue, I'm seeing 43" on the sink side, 44 on the fridge side and I think 45 at the stove end. It looks like about 120" from fridge to sink.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 4:38PM
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citadelcadet

The KD's reason for the T shaped island is that the island we have currently is too far from the range and that we have a large open area in the kitchen. We also don have much countertop work space.
If we were to remove food from the oven, we dont have any place to place those items.
I originally just wanted to do the island but she recommended the added T portion.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 6:49PM
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citadelcadet

It would be 42" from the end of the bottom of the T portion of the island to the range.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 6:54PM
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bluerdgddrs

Do you have a picture of the space as it is now? I'm trying to envision the post and how that will look.

Do you plan on having a table in the nook? If so, what size?

Rmt- thanks for the measurements :)

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 6:55PM
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citadelcadet

here is a closer pic

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 6:59PM
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citadelcadet

The post is holding up a large beam that runs the length of the front of the home.
We will remove the arch and walls to open up the space but we need to keep a support beam on that side
Current pic attached

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 7:02PM
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citadelcadet

Also,

Should we run the cabinets to the ceiling?
The ceiling is 10'.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 7:04PM
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bluerdgddrs

Did you post when you were contemplating purchasing? For some reason the kitchen looks familiar.

So where the picture is showing that cabinet run will essentially become the t portion of the island?

Do you have anymore pictures of the whole kitchen?

Sorry just trying to get a feel for the space.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 7:11PM
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brightm

I was going to say the same thing. I've seen this kitchen!

Here is a link that might be useful: Original thread

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 7:57PM
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citadelcadet

The current kitchen will be demo'ed including the island you see in the picture earlier.
We had a little mobile cart in the middle of the kitchen since there was no workspace there. The designer recommended the shape of the island to address that missing workspace.
I am not sure what you meant by "where is the pic that shows the cabinet run that will be a part of the T of the island".
We do plan on having a table in the nook but not sure what size yet.
I am open to feedback.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 8:10PM
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bluerdgddrs

Citadel-looking at your kitchen on the original thread, I think you have too beautiful of a space to muck it up, if you will.

I think when you have just one lonely column it looks like you didn't want to depend the extra money and put a beam in.

What I'm saying is it will never look intentional.

Now you could scale back both sides like in the picture and decorate with cabinetry, then it becomes a gorgeous focal point. The kitchen as is is one anybody would be envious of. You could drop down the island between the arch to make it all one level and put a nice sized new island where the one is currently except sized to fit your needs better. Have the cabinets painted or even new doors made and there you go, instant 2014 without dropping $$$$.

Take your family on a wonderful vacation and make some family memories that will last a whole lot longer than an open concept fascination will :)

It's a beautiful space already. Try your best to honor it.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 8:17PM
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nightowlrn

Personally, I wouldn't like that T. Having to zig-zag through the kitchen would not be fun for me. I am very glad you kept that great pantry.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 9:20PM
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deedles

Also not a fan of that T. First thing that jumped out at me until you showed a pic of the kitchen as it is. Beautiful floor. Beautiful kitchen. Read your old thread, too. Can't we problem solve something between the total $$$$ redo you are considering and leaving what you have? It feels like what you are looking for is almost there already, with some tweaks.

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 9:39PM
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rmtdoug

Citadel, I've now read the original thread. You were given some very good advice there. That's some stove! Will you really cook that much, seriously? Maybe a smaller stove and opening up the archway would solve your issues.

If you decide to move the stove back 3 feet, you will have counter space to the right of it to set stuff out of the oven. As you plan currently exists, I personally would feel the stem of the T invades the space of the kitchen, especially when moving stuff from the fridge to the sink. Could you shorten the T a bit to make it less zig-zaggy?

    Bookmark   June 6, 2014 at 10:17PM
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strayerdarb

I'm not a designer, but I am a busy family cook. That T would really bother me. I honestly thought the picture above was an inspiration pic, it's so pretty as it is.

About taking the cabinets to the ceiling. I have 10' ceilings and I did it. I really didn't see a reason not to. There was just a dust-collecting ledge up there. Of course I'll have to get a ladder out to access those cabs once or twice a year.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 12:53AM
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PRO
Sophie Wheeler

The original is better than that awkward T with a post. It's a truly awful design.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 1:21AM
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may_flowers

I think this is just bad design. I especially dislike how you've intruded into a beautiful windowed breakfast area with that...well, I'll go with my first reaction:

rmtdoug: First, I would love to hear the KD's reasoning for the T-shaped island. What is your gut reaction to it?

Me: phallic symbol

What will you do with the circle if you don't put a table there?

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 9:55AM
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citadelcadet

thanks for the feedback. I do appreciate it. I did not like the T Design when she 1st presented it. The designer added it as she said the distance between the range and the current island location was too far. I think it is around 10 feet.

Let me state the goals for the kitchen remodel:

-Add more usable counterspace.
-Open up the room to the living room
-Move to a White Shaker inset cabinet design

Yes I know you guys love my current kitchen but I dont like the style of it and the lack of counterspace and that arch over the island.

Any suggestions on how I can change it to meet my style desires?

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:09AM
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citadelcadet

And yes that range is bigger than what we actually need. Not sure if selling the 60" and moving to a 48" would be worth it. I would gain an additional 12" of counterspace to the left of the range. There is only about 9" there now.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:12AM
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citadelcadet

Here is a sketch of the design without the T shaped island.

The post there in the design is not optimal but the span of the beam needed would be over 40 feet.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:17AM
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citadelcadet

Here is another sketch with the range moved to the other wall and the island in the middle

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:19AM
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Sophie Wheeler

Put the money into a steel beam to eliminate that post FIRST. Then you can worry the rest of it into shape. And eliminate that humongous range. It's stealing valuable counter space from you. And decide how you want the nook to function. Those are the 3 drivers of the awful design. If you figure those issues out, everything else can flow and work better.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:25AM
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citadelcadet

Here is the current range and countertop space

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:29AM
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citadelcadet

We are thinking about using the nook as a breakfast seating area. We would build bench seating and have a table in there.
thoughts?

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:31AM
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citadelcadet

something like this...

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:34AM
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jennifer132

I had 3 suggestions:

1. No "t" island

2. Downsize the range. It seems like too big of a piece of equipment for the space. Of course, it is a statement piece of equipment.... I get it;) On the other hand, you are going to spend a lot of money and time making this kitchen function and look better to suit your preferences. And the range is the biggest space hog you have, right where you need the counter space. Adding another prep space in the middle of the kitchen just jams up your kitchen. Even with the t island you were only getting a couple of feet of counter space, but isolated on the tip of the island. Go from 60" to 48" or 36" or induction.... You gain more contiguous counter space.

2. Create 2 zones. Make the arched island the clean up sink, dw, secondary prep space. You can open the cutout space a bit, widen and square-off the arched opening and remove the closed upper cabs, but keep a framed opening with the short backsplash to help hide any mess. You could tuck a mw in that location if the work flow works for your family. The frig is right there. That could be a great serving, clean up, snack prep location.

This gives you two separate zones and makes use of that island, connecting it and the kitchen to the living/dining beyond.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:35AM
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rmtdoug

I think that last plan is on the right track. I think you could still keep your walk-in pantry and move the fridge to the end of the wall where the stove was. Set all your aisle and workspace clearances and then tie the island into the post and make it whatever shape you want.

You should think about putting a small sink in the island or on the stove side so at least you can dump hot liquids from the stove.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:43AM
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bluerdgddrs

Have you got quotes on removing the post? What is the difference $ wise? I really don't think that if you ho through with it half-a** you will ever be happy. You will constantly look at that darn post.

See how this looks

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:50AM
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bluerdgddrs

Now compare that to this-HUGE difference

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:51AM
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nightowlrn

Sometimes posts can be moved a bit. Maybe lengthen the island in the design posted at 11:19 and then move the post to incorporate it into the design of the island? Not too long ago someone posted a redone kitchen -- it was a bit modern I think - and thanked to great people here for helping with the design. I can't find it.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 11:54AM
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citadelcadet

that pic at 11:50 by Blue with the cased out post does look bad... The one posted under it at 11:51 with the wood design does look better.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 12:06PM
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bluerdgddrs

That's what I was hoping you would think. I don't want to see you spend a bunch of money to only go 3/4 of the way and never truly love your design. I'm sure every person here is not trying to be harsh just trying to get the best design for you :)

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 12:37PM
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citadelcadet

I appreciate the feedback. We dont want to make the wrong decision. Keep the comments coming....
For the steel beam, we can check this week but from comments from a contractor, a 40' beam with the associated construction costs will be cost prohibited. If the span was 10' then no big deal.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 12:42PM
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rmtdoug

Citadel, refer to your 11:19 plan. You have the wall with the stove extended to where the beam is. Discuss with your contractor just removing the portion of the old beam to the left of that little x you have drawn on the wall and installing the new beam all the way to the outer wall in the breakfast nook. I'm guessing that would be about 18-20'. That would be a lot cheaper and plus the work would only be occurring in your existing construction zone. Piece of cake if it can be done.

This post was edited by rmtdoug on Sat, Jun 7, 14 at 16:01

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 3:40PM
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citadelcadet

that beam runs the length of the front of the home- from side to side. Not from front to back.
The floor joists for the second floor run front to back and attach onto that beam.
The blue post are what holds the beam up.
The beam is in the ceiling and joist hangers attach the 2nd floor floor joist to it.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 3:48PM
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citadelcadet

the green shapes are the floor joists that attach to the beam.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 3:51PM
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citadelcadet

the beam rests on a support post in the exterior wall of the home (the top side of the pic- you cant see the exterior wall but it is another 18' past the end of the breakfast nook) and runs the length of the front of the home. It is supported at the island by a large post (framed out with drywall) and also behind the pantry by another large post framed out in drywall.
If I remove that post at the island the beam would need to span 40 feet (from the outside wall to the post in the pantry).

This post was edited by citadelcadet on Sat, Jun 7, 14 at 15:58

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 3:55PM
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citadelcadet

If I cant get rid of the support post near is island.... (Assuming it is cost prohibitive ie. more than $10k-$15k).... I am not sure an island that runs vertically will work.
The post that would remain would only be 32-36" from the island.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 4:04PM
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rmtdoug

That was my fear. I could not see evidence in the photos that the beam ran that way. Complicated framing, your house. Yeah, you do have a problem.

Like the photos of posts in a kitchen, make the post a feature and run with it.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 4:06PM
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rmtdoug

Don't get rid of the walk-in pantry and try moving the fridge to where the stove is now. Then try different shape islands. You have octagon shapes in that part of your house. Try some angles on your island. Maybe something will click for you.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 4:11PM
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citadelcadet

Here is another idea.
I would add a post to the other side of the island to frame it out better kind of like the brown island in the post at 11:51.

I would still be light on counterspace though.
I could sell the 60" range and get a 48" range. That would get me 12" additional on the side of the range. The painful part is that the 60" range cost about $14k and if I sell it I would get $7k I estimate. Than I would pay $7k for a 48" setup.... netting 12" of extra counterspace....

Also is the distance to the island from the range too far now...
Thoughts?

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 4:13PM
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bluerdgddrs

Much better! What if you had some sort of covering made for the burners that you weren't using at the time, then that way you would keep the range but still have landing space for items? Something along these lines except with your same pretty countertop material? I agree it seems like a lot of work for 12" of countertop.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 4:50PM
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bluerdgddrs

As it stands now how much space is between the range and current arched island cabinets? Can you sketch the kitchen as it is? That might be easier then looking at kds new sketch.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 4:58PM
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brightm

You've recently moved to this house, I think. What size/type stove did you have before? How did you feel about it? What was lacking? What have you thought about this stove so far?

Going from 60" to 48" would only net you 12", but going to 36" would net you 24". There are many on here that tout the benefits of induction, maybe you could tuck a small induction hob somewhere? And maybe an additional oven?

I like the two post idea.

I saw a pic of someone with a post that was boxed in and I can't recall where. I think it was in conjunction with showing one of the mixer lifts. Maybe someone here will remember.

This post was edited by cal_quail on Sat, Jun 7, 14 at 17:07

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 5:05PM
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citadelcadet

The island in the drawing above with the 2 posts is in the same location as the current island. The previous owners had a small movable island in the open area to provide a spot to set things down.
The KD was trying to solve for the issue by making a T shaped island

This post was edited by citadelcadet on Sat, Jun 7, 14 at 18:59

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 6:47PM
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jennifer132

I'll try again w this question/suggestion.

Can you put a clean-up sink and dw on the island? With the frig nearby you could add a Mw under counter there too. This can maybe create a separate clean-up zone and secondary prep/snack zone.

Then you can maybe shift the prep sink down toward the island a bit. Now you have a dedicated prep sink and prep counter. There are different sink w cutting board set ups. This could also expand useable prep space.

Did you buy the range? Or was it there already? I assumed (always dangerous) that it was in the house.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:01PM
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citadelcadet

Hi Jennifer

Sorry I missed you comment earlier.
Are you suggesting to gain counterspace where the current sink is (under the windows by moving the main sink and dishwasher into the island?
That is interesting... I need to draw that out.
Do you think that will help with the lack of countertop space?

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:14PM
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citadelcadet

something like this?....

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:23PM
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citadelcadet

I forgot to answer your question.
The range was already in the home

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:26PM
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jennifer132

I am only sorry I can't draw something for you!

Yes, exactly. Separate prep/cooking from clean up.

Sometimes we lack counter space because other stuff/activity/people are in our way. So dedicate that "L" area by the range for prep and cooking. Then the island is clean up, and if it works for you add an under cabinet mw for a secondary prep zone there.

The range is awesome. But it is huge! If you want to keep the range then maximize creative ways to expand the counter in your footprint: prep sink w cutting board cover, there are pullout cutting boards that pull out from a top cabinet drawer, find a way to utilize part of the range top as a work surface....

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:27PM
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jennifer132

Just add back a prep sink at the end of the "L" and see what you think.

Now you have a sink near the frig on the island: drinks, snacks, salad, and sandwich making all happening away from cooking. Clean up is away from the range and closer to the dining area.

What is that aisle size between the end of the "L" and the island? What about the aisle from island to frig? Which side the dw would go on depends on measurements and dish/glass storage....

You can post specific questions about prep sinks and sink systems, pull out counter etc. I've seen lots of creative ways to add useable space on GW. (Of course I can't remember where and when!)

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:38PM
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citadelcadet

is prep area where the windows are better than prep area on the island? Asking as I kind of liked the sink in front of the windows.
It seems the prep space on the island is usabel by more people at the same time.
The distance from the island to range is 10'.
I think the distance from the L to the side of the island is 37"-39".
Island edge to the fridge is ~40".

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:49PM
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jennifer132

And last thoughts for now:

If the range is not right for you and the space, then sell it. Get a new range. And be really thankful that the old range was worth so much that it offset the cost of the new range. You are getting rid of lovely and expensive cabinets because they don't work for you. Same thing w the range.

But if you love the range don't apologize for keeping it!

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:50PM
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rantontoo

Definitely not a fan of the t-shaped island. The lack of symmetry with just one post would really bug me; I like the suggested two post island.

Are you "wed" to the stove? I would sell it and put in either a single wall oven and microwave or double wall ovens with an induction cooktop in the counter...love my induction top!

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 8:58PM
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chispa

Hard to tell how much space you have, but have you considered swapping the kitchen with breakfast area? Our last house had a great kitchen in a similar space as your breakfast area. Very few uppers, but we had a large walk-in pantry.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 9:02PM
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bluerdgddrs

How wide is it from sink to fridge? If you have 10' from range to island you could leave 4' aisles and have a 2' work island with prep sink at one end but it depends on how wide the kitchen is to determine if it would truly work.

Is the reason you don't like the temp island because it was moveable?

If you did an actual permanent island and made it beautiful, would it bother you still?

Lots of kitchens have two islands- one working, one for sitting.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 9:08PM
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jennifer132

Ok these last thoughts then I have to clean up my own kitchen;)

I would keep a sink under the windows. Right now the dw is on the island side of your sink. You won't need to keep 24" on that side of your prep sink. Ideally, I would not center the sink under the windows. I would have it under the 3d window toward the island (furthest from the corner). I would have a small drawer stack to the right of the sink so I could maximize my uninterrupted counter space from the left of that prep sink to the range. That would be my cooking and baking prep zone. I like to have a sink near my range because we eat lots of pasta and I dont like to cross the kitchen to dump hot water in the sink. And I if I had to carry things from that island 10' away to my range, I would drop, spill, curse. If you keep a sink under the windows the frig would be across from that prep sink creating a cooking triangle: frig, sink, counter, range/oven. And people won't cross your path going to the frig or dw.

Then if you had a clean up sink on the island you could also use that space for prep work. But I wouldn't want to have to rely on that as my only sink. As I said, that sink is a bit far, 10' away, from my range. And people will cross that sink to range path to get to the frig. That's a sore spot for me. Did that make sense?

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 9:20PM
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elizardbethday

I second jennifer's suggestion of a clean-up area on the island, and only a prep sink near the range. (Yes, under the windows).

Also, consider making some (or most) of the lower cabinets deeper than standard. That would give you more counterspace from front-to-back. I think it'd be especially useful on the island and on the run in front of the windows.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 9:36PM
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rmtdoug

I was also thinking of suggesting deeper counters. Your kitchen is just wide and deep enough that it's borderline too far from side to side. 28" or even 30" counters would make a huge difference in counter space on the window side of your kitchen and you can still use 24" bases for your cabinets.

    Bookmark   June 7, 2014 at 10:50PM
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citadelcadet

Is this what you are suggesting?

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 12:52AM
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citadelcadet

here is another option mentioned previously.
We could add a small island in the middle.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 1:44AM
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citadelcadet

One more design with the base of the T shortened

This post was edited by citadelcadet on Sun, Jun 8, 14 at 2:03

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 2:02AM
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bluerdgddrs

How big is the island that is currently in the space? The moveable one.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 3:21AM
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jennifer132

The first picture you posted is the general design I suggested.

Then, as suggested by elizard and rmtdoug, you build it with deeper counters on that "L". You can do this in 2 ways: 1) with deeper custom cabs and then deeper countertops over Or 2) use standard cabs pulled out from the wall a couple of inches and then lay a deeper counter over.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 8:52AM
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debrak2008

Are the layouts you posted today June 8th to scale? The area between the DW and the island looks really tight.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 9:22AM
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citadelcadet

the layouts arent to scale. I just drew them up.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 10:24AM
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citadelcadet

In the designed posted at 0:52, where would pot and pan storage go?

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 10:27AM
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jennifer132

You will have cabinet storage along the L. You could have a draw stack, sink base, a corner super susan, or more drawers, a vertical cab for trays. You show cabinet storage along the frig wall, across the aisle from the range....

But, without more exact measurements it's difficult to give specific storage and cabinet suggestions. And the cabinet storage also depends on your appliances and cooking supplies. What are your preferences? What do you have and how do you like to cook? ....

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 12:16PM
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citadelcadet

I would like to have the pots and pans drawer as close to the range as possible.
We are also not ones to keep a perfectly clean countertop. As we have a dish drying rack typically on the counter along with the toaster, coffee maker, expresso machine.
I was concerned that if we put the main sink and dishwasher in the island that it would look cluttered. We were trying to keep the island as clutter free as possible hence the desire to have the sink by the windows.
What are your thoughts on the pics from 1:44 and 2:02?

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 12:31PM
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citadelcadet

Here is an idea on the support columns for the main island

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 12:37PM
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rmtdoug

The more I think about this, the more I'm convinced you need to get rid of that stove. It's the elephant in the room. I doubt you paid 14k more for the house because of that stove and the 7k you would get for it would go a long way towards a more sensible design.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 6:09PM
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debrak2008

I tried to look through the thread but could not find a post where you really said how you feel about the range. If you are not totally in love with it,and it is not a must have in your kitchen, then sell it. No matter what you get for it, it is cash toward your kitchen.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 6:15PM
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jennifer132

I agree with the last two posts about getting rid of the range. It is oversized for your space.... But, only you can make that trade off.

It's possible you have room for a pots and pans drawer near the range. You seem to have a whole wall of full depth cabinets by the frig. Again, it's difficult to suggest more without the overall exact dimensions of the space.

For me, the big island would not be usable kitchen space without a sink. And I would do my best to make every inch useable kitchen space. Clutter and mess happen in most kitchens. We all just have different expectations.

IMHO if you want to keep all of the "mess" (dish rack, coffee pot etc) by the sink under the window you will continue to have limited usable counter space, by the range, even if you downsize the range. And that's where you would want the counter space most. The big island is great real estate to take advantage of. I would go for functional and then get creative so the form was beautiful.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 6:28PM
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elizardbethday

The layout you posted at :52 ... yes, that is what I was suggesting. The walkway between the island and the end of the window run looks tight, though. So maybe the deeper counters won't work for you. Or, maybe you could do an angled end or something.

If you include a second, smaller island where the old owners had their moveable island... that could be great pots/pans storage for you. Hard to tell for sure w/o scale-- don't want to make too much barrier btwn the window sink and the fridge.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 10:41PM
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elizardbethday

The layout you posted at :52 ... yes, that is what I was suggesting. The walkway between the island and the end of the window run looks tight, though. So maybe the deeper counters won't work for you. Or, maybe you could do an angled end or something.

If you include a second, smaller island where the old owners had their moveable island... that could be great pots/pans storage for you. Hard to tell for sure w/o scale-- don't want to make too much barrier btwn the window sink and the fridge.

    Bookmark   June 8, 2014 at 10:42PM
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