240V euro washer installation questions

clean_laundry_loverDecember 6, 2012

Hello,

I've just purchased a Miele W1213 washer and have a few installation questions. So, here goes:

1.) I'm repurposing an old stove outlet for use with this 240V machine. I've already replaced the outlet to the correct one. Now my question is at the fuse box. It takes cartridge fuses and right now has two 40V cartridges. Now Miele asks for a 15A circuit. So, do I replace the cartridges with 15A ones or with 7.5A ones or something different all together? Also, on the serial plate it reads: Max ampacity: L1 12A L2 12A. This would seem to go with my latter choice but I honestly don't know.

1a.) Do both these cartridges trip if there is a fault? Or is this dangerous somehow? And if they both don't trip is there some sort of retrofit to cause them both to trip or make it safer?

That's all I can think of for now. Thanks for any help.

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Ron Natalie

You'd replace the fuses with 15A. The big question is if you can find 15A cartridges that fit that block. A fuse has a metal link inside that melts when there is too much current. That's how it "trips." You reset it (and here's the rub) by installing a new fuse.

Before you ask, it is not legal to put a receptacle that this washer is expecting on the circuit with 40A fuses in place.

You have bigger issues. Older stove circuits typically did not have a ground. Without a proper grounding conductor you can not use this circuit.

You should have an electrician come out an evaluate your options. We can't tell at a distance.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 8:51AM
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brickeyee

If he has 3 wires (hot-hot-ground) he is fine.

European 240 V is one hot to a neutral, but out two hots works just fine.

The 60 Hz may throw off any motors, but 50 Hz motors just run faster on 60 Hz.

60 Hz motor on 50 Hz often just burn out.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 12:51PM
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mike_kaiser_gw

My reading of the manual is the W1213 requires a 120/240 volt, 15 amp, 60 Hz. circuit.

Brick - the washer is designed for the U.S. market. These washers heat the water, hence the need for 240v.

Laundry Lover - you're going to need 4 wires (two hots, neutral, ground). If the current circuit doesn't have 4 wires, you'll need to pull new cable or wires. You might want to think about calling an electrician.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 1:20PM
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clean_laundry_lover

Yes, although this machine is 240V it was made for N. America 60Hz so there is no issue with that.

I think we have proper ground as the receptical is new and had a ground wire. How would I test if the ground went anywhere (i.e.: that its actually attached to Ground)?

Could I wire it for the Neutral if there is no proper Ground as this machine though wired 4-Wire doesn't actually use the neutral, it is not attached inside the machine? What I mean is use the Neutral as a Ground. Or is there an electrical reason why this would be bad?

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 1:33PM
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ionized_gw

The info is right in the manual. It will be easiest to install if there is a neutral and a ground available. If only 240 is available, no neutral, it can be done, but you might need to buy more equipment from Miele. At the very least, you need to look at the kit from Miele:

The washing machine is supplied with a 5� 3" long, 4 wire cord, ending in a NEMA 14-30 P plug, ready for connection to a 120/208-240 V, 15 A, 60 Hz, AC power supply.
The proper outlet can be purchased from an electrical supply dealer or from the Miele Technical Service Department (request a NEMA 14-30 R receptacle).
"EASY INSTALLATION KIT"
If a dedicated 4 wire, 120/208-240 V,
15 Amp line is not available for this appliance, an optional "Easy Installation Kit" will allow you to connect to a 240 V, 30 Amp line .
This dual receptacle, wall mounted connection box can ONLY be used for connecting a Miele clothes washer and a Miele clothes dryer to an existing
30 Amp (NEMA 10-30R) outlet.
For more information on .....

You can reduce the capacity of the fuses in your fuse box to match the receptacle. You can not increase the capacity of the fuses over the rating of the cable.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 2:25PM
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clean_laundry_lover

Yes, I could go with that $270 box and a NEMA 14-30R (receptical) (~$20) which I've done or just the receptical and some 15A fuses. Total cost: ~$25. I think I'll choose the later option.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 2:35PM
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weedmeister

Understand that you NEED the neutral if you don't use their converter box.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 3:42PM
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ionized_gw

I'd like to see what is in that precious box. Chatter on the web, however, indicates that it is not available anyway. Do you suppose that they had low demand at that price?

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 4:35PM
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brickeyee

"I'd like to see what is in that precious box. "
Could be an isolation transformer.

If the appliance is made for the US market and labeled as 120/240 V it requires a four wire feed.

3-wire feeds for dryers and ranges have not been allowed for new work for many years now.

he actual European units are straight 240 V loads, and a 3-wire feed is all they need (hot-hot-ground).

The European feed is hot-neutral-ground, but since they do not ground the neutral in the appliance (they are not that strange) it works just fine on a US 240 V split phase feed.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 5:49PM
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mike_kaiser_gw

I'd like to see what is in that precious box.

German engineering. It's the word Miele on the outside of the box that really adds to the price. ;-) From what I could gather, this washer had a MSRP of $2000. Is it reasonable to assume that accessories for it would be any less expensive?

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 5:50PM
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Ron Natalie

As stated, he almost certainly doesn't have a GROUND here.

As already pointed out by ion, this requires a four wire 240 cord.
Who gives a rats ass what the eurpoean version of this is, the sold in the US version requires a 4 wire connection.

If he has a delivered for Europe version, he's got other issues. The thing almost certainly will have a 50Hz motor in it.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 6:00PM
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clean_laundry_lover

I'm actually in Canada, this machine is both CSA and UL listed and the manufacturer, although attaching a 4-wire plug does not have the neutral connected in the machine. In fact the wiring diagram provided inside doesn't even mention the neutral and at the attachment point inside the machine there is no place for the neutral to attach.

So, I want to be perfectly clear, no matter what plug is attached to this machine, it will only EVER use Hot, Hot, & Ground--end of story. This is perfectly safe and government certified. The Hots are at 180 deg. to each other negating the need for the Neutral.

So, again my question is: because the previous stove receptacle was also a 4-wire configuration and I'm just changing one pin really (an L-shaped one from a straight one) if for some reason there is actually no ground (or it doesn't go anywhere) can I swap the neutral and Ground pins so the the washer would use the Neutral as a Ground instead of the Ground, or is this not safe (and why)?

Although I do like the above debate, I would really like some help with my specific question.

Thank you.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2012 at 11:01PM
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Ron Natalie

If you had a four wire stove hook up then it may indeed have a ground (are all four pins connected to individual wires)?

If so, then you can indeed just change the receptacle and drop the fuses down to 15A.

If the receptacle was kludged in and there are really only three wires feeding it, then you need to find out if the third wire is connected to an acceptable ground.
Most likely in older wiring it is because the fusebox is also the service entrance where the neutrals and grounds are bonded, but you need to make sure.

Washing machines are one of the places you don't want a dubious ground.

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 8:26AM
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stinkytiger

Hi,

Ah Miele.... The one I sort of "crave" over is a Miele PW 6065. Could not justify the cost though at about $US 4,000. This is a commercial unit. Hmm ... maybe something wrong with me, most sane people look at Mustangs or Corvettes :)

Best, Mike.

Here is a link that might be useful: Miele PW 6065

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 9:10AM
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brickeyee

"If he has a delivered for Europe version, he's got other issues. The thing almost certainly will have a 50Hz motor in it."

50 Hz motors work fine on 60 Hz as long as the speed increase (about 20%) does not bother the equipment.

Some pumps are on the 'edge' enough to not run well at increased speed.

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 12:49PM
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Ron Natalie

...yeah yeah... and things don't overheat. That's frequently a problem running euro 50hz stuff on 60hz power here.

    Bookmark   December 7, 2012 at 6:03PM
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brickeyee

Just dp npt attept a 60 Hz motor n a 50 Hz supply.

There is rarely enough iron' in a 60 Hz motor to avoid saturation and rapid burnout running a 60 Hz on 50 Hz.

A large number of smaller induction motors are designed for 50/60 Hz operation, even many not marked that way.

The ones marked often cost more since they have been tested to work on either frequency.

Sealed hermetic compressors are commonly designed this way.
There are actually painfully few factories for them worldwide, so running on either frequency is pretty much required to support sales volume.

When we needed a support cart to cool aircraft equipment on the ground worldwide it was a bit of a nightmare.

We finally found hermetic compressors and tested them ourselves fr frequency, and then had to use multiple buck-boost transformers for all the voltage standards (though many of the 240 V systems overlap enough to be usable).

We did have to add valves to throttle flow based on operating frequency and resulting pump speeds.
And as much as possible it had to be automatic.

Hook up the voltage and it works.

    Bookmark   December 8, 2012 at 12:48PM
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clean_laundry_lover

Hey all. Thanks for the help. I've ordered the fuse reducers and fuses. Ive also ordered a multimeter to test whether we have a connected ground.

And again, don't worry about the 60/50 Hz thing. This machine is designed for 60 Hz.

    Bookmark   December 9, 2012 at 2:20PM
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