the theory is a little beyond me, but from my limited search, these seem real. does anyone have any experience with them?
google or look here for some info http://www.saveenergyllc.com/
Never heard of it till now. For a residential service, I'd say you're wasting your money. The initial inrush of current when a motor starts (A/C, compressor, fridge) is so short in duration that a wire wouldn't heat up significantly. That's what capacitive start motors are for.
That's my take on it. I'm sure Brickeye could give you a lot more detail and insight. He's an electrical engineer who's done/seen it all.
I had not heard of this particular unit, but a visit to their website shows up several of the features common to many 'electrical scam' sites : 1) they make extravagant claims about how it is possible to save many % off your power account, 2) they offer a few tantalising hints as to how their particular brand of magic works, 3)they are very short on specifics as to how their magic machine actually works, 4) they offer an impressive range of apparent endorsements from organisations that sound impressive but which have probably never actually heard of the products on offer : Nasa, EPA, UL and so on.
In almost every case the products either do not work, or if they do, they will almost never produce results anything like as good as what is claimed.
You can only save energy that is being wasted. In this case, the explanation of how the product works is so vague that it is not clear just what mechanism is at work. It could be a power-factor correction device, and if so the power savings would be absolutely tiny - pennies. They mention the current peaks drawn by motors when they start, but this too is a very small amount of energy, and in any case all of the techniques for reducing these peaks only smoothes them out a little, they do not really save any power.
I believe that the products on offer at www.saveenergyllc.com are most probably a scam, or at very least will not deliver anything like the results offered.
Naturally, if the proprietors of this business can provide some detailed explanation of how their product actually works to achieve the results claimed, and if their explanation stacks up, then I will change my opinion.
FWIW, I am an electrical engineer who works in the power industry. I think I can claim to be reasonably knowledgeable about electrical distribution systems and motors.
Almost certainly a scam.
If you Google the company name, you'll get no hits except its own website. If you Google the phone number, you'll find at least three other businesses using that number: one that sells packing material, a delivery service, and a warehousing service. I'd stay away.
Hey paulusgnome61, I see you're a Kiwi. I worked in Auckland years ago but left right before the big downtown power outage in 1998. Was that you?
The KVAR Power Factor 1200 is an Electrical Fine Tuning System that increases power factor by reducing the amount of reactive power that the load draws from the utility company. The system reduces heat generation and amperage resulting in reduced consumption of electricity while increasing the life of the inductive equipments (appliances, electronics...) in residential homes, businesses and industries. When installed, the system increases the capacity to the electrical panel by making it run cooler, and by protecting said inductive equipments from electrical surges.
that is from that website. from what it states, it is a capacitor for power correction. Now the thing is, in most residential systems, this will not save a thing by PF correction since a residential power supply is not charged for poor PF.
The only other claim, reduces heat, might be true to a very small extent but in reality, the savings would be imperceptable. The other thing that yo must take note of is to correct PF, the caps need to be sized for the load. In an industrial setting, the loads are usually consistant so the proper cap size can be determined. In a residence, they change so much so often that a single PF correction device would be nearly useless. What do you size it for? The well pump that runs 2 minutes each hour or the furnace that might run 10 minutes each hour but remeber that is only in the cold season.
That thing is a waste.
If it really worked - which as Dozer suggests will be only under very specific circumstances - it would be a good thing to do, but wouldn't save you any money.
The principle is different, but this reminds me of the "Green Plugs" that the big box stores sold about 15 years ago. They had some theoretical benefit, but not for most modern appliances. Besides, the demonstration gadgets were rigged, and in my book that's a big "no way" right there.
I'd say that if you really want to try one, wait 5-7 years. By then the company will have gone on to some other money makng scheme. Then you should be able to buy one for $5 or $10 from a surplus store, or maybe on Ebay.
here's a few links for to look at....
this one has a "demonstration video" http://www.kvarhydrosave.com/
OK, here are a couple of quotes from the sites linked to in the above post. First, from the Georgian College, Ontario : "This typical motor runs at only 33% efficiency (248W/744VA) under full load". Sorry, but whoever wrote this is in need of a lesson in electrical theory. The POWER FACTOR is 0.33, but this is NOT a measure of the efficiency of the motor. The efficiency of the motor is the ratio of mechanical power delivered to the load (watts) to electrical power consumed (watts) The VA only affects efficiency in that the extra current will result in a small amount of extra heat being generated in the motor and the wiring connecting it to the supply. To mis-represent power factor as a measure of efficiency like this is just plain wrong, perhaps it was a mistake, or perhaps it was deliberate?
Next, the report from teh Energy Savers Initiative on the West Edmonton Mall : "The first stage of this retrofit, completed in 1988, resulted in energy savings of 4457 kilovars (kVAR) per year. " Again this is wrong. The term KVAR is short for Kilo Volt-Amperes Reactive, and is a measure of the reactive, or non-energy component of the current drawn by the installation. It is in no way a measure of energy, quite the opposite. It is a measure of the extra current drawn when the power factor is less than 1. This extra current does no work, consumes no energy, and the power companies do not charge domestic consumers for it.
Power factor correction does have its place, usually in large installations where it helps to make better use of the distribution cabling and transformers by reducing the KVARs and hence the line currents. It is, however, of very doubtful value to the domestic consumer who is being targeted by the company this system is being sold by.
My advice to anyone considering buying this system is that it will not deliver any worthwhile saving of any kind to the domestic electricity consumer. It is a waste of money and a scam.
boy, that must be a BIG cap to take more than just a second to charge. did you have to park your car outside the garage after that?
Won't be long before someone comes out with a generator/appliance that burns water and backfeed the grid... that'll take all the load off those meters - attach hose here.
Here is a link that might be useful: Turn down the radio, please
Color me skeptical. This sounds like the trick the "over unity" nutcases use to "prove" their Rube Goldberg gadgets make more energy than they consume. A typical ammeter (especially the clamp on type) is fooled by weird waveforms.
The kWh meter tells the story. Turn everything else off in the house (open the breakers). Note the meter reading and run your aircon for an hour straight without the gadget. Note again. Put the gadget online and repeat. See how much difference in measured consumption there really is.
Wonder what happens when it fails? I've seen PF capacitors cause current imbalances on 3 phase motor circuits when they go bad.
Here is the site that makes these units. http://www.kvarenergysavings.com/
If a power factor of .77-.85 can be increased to .95-.99 and draw less amps in a circuit panel, Why would this not decrease your kilowatt hrs? The unit also offers surge protection of 2000 joules (How many volts is that?) I have been hearing alot about this unit and it claims to save 6-15% guaranteed kilowatt hrs charged. It saves on inductive loads used in a building which I assume means motorized equipment.
--claims to save 6-15% guaranteed--
Please define guaranteed:
Is there a monetary fine, a refund, in other words what do you get if the savings don't result as stated.
As a home customer with no power factor penalties I would like someone to explain to me or post a link how power factor correction saves me money. From my theory school days (30 years ago) I seem to remember that poor power factor would register less on a watt meter. The current is out of phase with volts and thus watts measured is less than true VA used. That is why in industrial metering power factor is monitored and you pay a penatly based on your poor power factor. Correcting the power factor would cost you more money in home.
"If a power factor of .77-.85 can be increased to .95-.99 and draw less amps in a circuit panel, Why would this not decrease your kilowatt hrs?"
Because amps x volts is NOT watts for a load with a power factor other than 1.00.
Watts = Amps x Volts x Power Factor
Residential customers are not charged based on power factor.
It would be to your actual advantage to have a lousy power factor (and the utilities DISadvantage).
While the generators and wiring are sized to the actual current flowing, with a lousy power factor some of the current does no work and cannot be billed to a residential customer.
"The unit also offers surge protection of 2000 joules (How many volts is that?)"
A Joule is a unit all by itself and measures the amount of energy the device can absorb (note that energy is NOT power).
2000 joule's is equal to the energy one person gets from drinking 20 drops of beer.
Here is a link that might be useful: ../wiki/Joules
"Watts = Amps x Volts x Power Factor
Residential customers are not charged based on power factor.
It would be to your actual advantage to have a lousy power factor (and the utilities DISadvantage).
While the generators and wiring are sized to the actual current flowing, with a lousy power factor some of the current does no work and cannot be billed to a residential customer."
This is what I always thought and can't undstand why this unit(if it did work) would reduce your bill. If anything it would increase your bill.
Can any one explain this to some one who is not an electrical engineer?
Depending upon the rate structure of your electric utility, you may be able to save a substantial amount of money on your electric bill. Pay-back period for an equipment purchase including installation cost may be six months up to three years. Utility rate structures that account for reactive power consumption, by either a KVA or var demand usage, or a power factor penalty are the ones that can provide this pay-back. Other ancillary benefits to be gained by optimizing power factor are, lower energy losses, better voltage regulation and released system capacity. This page explains the fundamentals of power factor and how KEC UNITs can benefit you.
All electric equipment requires "vars" - a term used by electric power engineers to describe the reactive or magnetizing power required by the inductive characteristics of electrical equipment. These inductive characteristics are more pronounced in motors and transformers, and therefore, can be quite significant in industrial facilities. The flow of vars, or reactive power, through a watt-hour meter will not effect the meter reading, but the flow of vars through the power system will result in energy losses on both the utility and the industrial facility. Some utilities charge for these vars in the form of a penalty, or KVA demand charge, to justify the cost for lost energy and the additional conductor and transformer capacity required to carry the vars. In addition to energy losses, var flow can also cause excessive voltage drop, which may have to be optimized by either the application of KEC Units, or other more expensive equipment, such as load-tap changing transformers, synchronous motors, and synchronous condensers.
Figure 1 - Power Factor Triangle
The power triangle shown in figure 1, is the simplest way to understand the effects of reactive power. The figure illustrates the relationship of active (real) and reactive (imaginary or magnetizing) power. The active power (represented by the horizontal leg) is the actual power, or watts that produces real work. This component, is the energy transfer component, which represents fuel burned at the power plant. The reactive power, or magnetizing power, (represented by the vertical leg of the upper or lower triangle) is the power required to produce the magnetic fields to enable the real work to be done. Without magnetizing power, transformers, conductors, motors, and even resistors and capacitors would not be able to operate. Reactive power is normally supplied by generators, capacitors and synchronous motors. The longest leg of the triangle (on the upper or lower triangle), labeled total power, represents the vector sum of the reactive power and real power components. Mathematically, this is equal to:
Electric power engineers often call total power, kVA, MVA, apparent power, or complex power. Some utilities measure this total power, (usually averaged over a 15 minute load period) and charge a monthly fee or tariff for the highest fifteen minute average load reading in the month. This tariff is usually added to the energy charge or kilowatt-hour charge. This type of billing is often called kva demand billing and can be quite costly to an industrial facility. KEC UNITs can save your company money by decreasing your reactive power component supplied by the utility to near zero vars.
The power triangle and the equation above show, that as the reactive power component is decreased by adding KEC UNITs, the total power will also decrease. This is shown by the decreased length of the dashed lines in the power triangle as the reactive power component approaches zero. Therefore, adding KEC UNITs, which will supply reactive power locally, can reduce your total power and monthly kva demand charge.
The angle "phi" in the power triangle is called the power factor angle and is mathematically equal to:
The ratio of the real power to the total power in the equation above (or the cos of phi) is called power factor. As the angle gets larger (caused by increasing reactive power) the power factor gets smaller. In fact, the power factor can vary from 0 to 1, and can be either inductive (lagging) or capacitive (leading). Capacitive loads are drawn down, and inductive loads are drawn up on the power triangle. Most industrials normally operate on the upper triangle (inductive or lagging triangle). As an industrial adds capacitors, the length of reactive (inductive) power leg is shortened by the number of capacitive KEC that were added. If the number of capacitive KEC added exceeds the industrials inductive KEC load, operation occurs on the lower triangle. This is commonly referred to as over compensation.
Utilities charge for reactive power in a countless number of ways. Some utilities charge for KEC demand, while others charge a strait fee for a power factor less than their target. To fully understand the benefits of the KEC UNIT, you must acquire your electric billing rate structure. This rate structure will describe how cost for poor power factor are added to your monthly bills
You could put the KEC UNIT anywhere on the system as shown (between the transformer and load and not only at Points A, B, and C) and achieve unity power factor for the system. The utility company will perceive this power system as having a unity power factor no matter where it is located on the distribution line as long as it's sized correctly to deliver the proper amount of KEC.
However, optimum efficiency and economics will be achieved if the KEC UNIT bank is located as close to the load as possible.
The reason for this is because when you optimize power factor, you can reduce the total line current to the load and therefore you reduce the total losses in the line conductor and decrease the voltage drop in the line. This decrease in voltage drop will only occur if you locate the KEC UNIT close to the load, as explained below.
Assume the load is a motor. A motor uses KW to perform work. It uses KEC to magnetize its coil windings. (We will refer to the magnetic requirements of the motor's windings as the motor's "inductance". It is this inductance that utilizes the KEC.)
The motor load draws a line current that has two components. The first component is the amperage that supplies the KW to the load, so that the motor can perform work such as lifting an object. The second part supplies the amperage to provide the load with KEC which in the case of the motor is the power necessary to energize the magnetic fields in the motor's windings. Together the two amounts of current supply the total KVA to the load.
Normally the system generator or transformer supplies all this current. But when a KEC UNIT is used to optimize the power factor, the KEC UNIT supplies the KEC reactive current component to the load. The KEC UNIT is, in effect, a reactive power generator. (Remember, the KEC UNIT stores energy. The KEC UNIT stores reactive energy in its electric field when it charges up, and releases it when it discharges.)
The generator (or transformer) must still supply the load's KW requirements.
The reactive current component is now supplied by the KEC UNIT and not the generator. By moving the KEC UNIT closer to the load, the reactive current does not have to travel as far through the line conductors to get to the load.
If the KEC UNIT is placed at the load, the reactive current only needs to travel through a short distance (e.g. the lead length of connecting wire) to get to the load. Since this reactive current component no longer travels through the conductor line from the generator to the load, it does not travel through the impedances in the line conductor.
Since this reactive current no longer flows through the line impedances, there is less heating of the line, less losses (in the form of heat), and less voltage drop across these in - line impedances (which reduces the overall voltage drop from generator to load).
The KW current component is all that the generator has to supply to the motor. Therefore the generator now runs at unity power factor and allows the KEC UNIT to supply the KEC requirement of the motor's inductive windings.
The energy "contained" in the KEC current component is transferred back and forth between the KEC UNIT and the motor 2 times for every voltage sine wave cycle (i.e. at 120 times a second).
This reactive energy is never consumed by either the KEC UNIT or the motor. (NOTE: The KW energy, on the other hand, performs real work and is totally consumed.)
Rather, the reactive energy is only "BORROWED" half of the time by the KEC UNIT and half of the time by the motor. The energy is used to charge the AC electric field of the KEC UNIT and to energize and create the AC magnetic fields contained in the motor's windings.
A KEC UNIT absorbs this energy from the power system and stores this energy in its electric field when it charges up (120 times a second). The KEC UNIT releases this energy back into the power when it discharges (120 times a second).
The motor's inductance absorbs the reactive energy from the power system and stores this energy in its windings' magnetic fields when the fields are expanding (120 times a second). The inductance releases this energy back into the power system when the windings magnetic fields are collapsing (120 times a second).
The secret is that when the motor's inductance requires reactive energy to expand its magnetic field, the KEC UNIT discharges to supply the energy. And when the magnetic field in the motor's inductive windings is collapsing and returning energy to the system, the KEC UNIT uses this energy to charge up.
So the capacitance in the KEC UNIT and the inductance in the motor's windings "slinky" this reactive energy back and forth 120 times a second, each supplying the others needs. The reactive current of the KEC UNIT is 180 degrees out of phase with the reactive current of the inductance. When one is giving, the other is taking and vice versa.
Again, the reactive energy is never consumed (except for some small and usually insignificant losses); it is only borrowed. The generator needs to supply the original reactive KEC energy only once when the system is first energized. After that, this amount of energy is simply transferred back and forth between inductance and capacitance.
Power Factor is a measurement of how much of the KVA is actually in the form of KW. The advantage of a high power factor is that line currents can be reduced which will in turn reduce voltage drop and decrease line losses. This saves money. It also means that since equipment such as transformers will supply only KW, the KVA rating of the equipment can be reduced, or alternatively, more load can be added to the system without purchasing larger equipment.
The KVA rating of a transformer is based on the transformers ability to supply power either all in KW or all in KEC or in a combination of both. Drawing more than rated KVA from a transformer is easily done, but the transformer's life will be reduced due to increasing heat which destroys the transformer's winding insulation.
By increasing the power factor, all of a transformer's KVA can be utilized to supply KW in order to perform useful work rather than to supply KEC just to energize electric and magnetic fields.
Increasing the power factor seen by the transformer creates "room" on the transformer for adding more load. Room can also be created on circuit breakers. Since line current is reduced by increasing power factor, load can be added to the system without upgrading the breaker to a larger size.
"Utility rate structures that account for reactive power consumption, by either a KVA or var demand usage, or a power factor penalty are the ones that can provide this pay-back.":
Call your POCO up and ask then how much your rate will be adjusted if you install power factor correction equipment.
They are going to tell you ZERO.
Sigh. IF (is that "if" big enough?) the gadget under discussion actually provided calculated power factor correction, using it could be considered a "Social Good." Poor power factor increases heating and loss in the power grid. It is wasteful and correcting for it is a good thing to do.
If you want to do that, I say bravo. Most people don't care because poor power factor doesn't cost them anything in a residential setting. That may change someday, and "someday" may be accelerated by the increasing number of switchmode and "light dimmer" style power supplies in appliances. Those cheap "electronic transformers" used for some kinds of low voltage lighting are the sort I'm talking about.
However, so far, all the kiloWatt hour meters (that's the meter on the side of your house) I know of ignore low or poor power factor, billing you as if it didn't exist. Nor do I know of any power company that will give you a lower rate or otherwise financially reward you for Doing The Right Thing and applying power factor correction. So if you do it, you do it for your own personal satisfaction.
This isn't true everywhere. I seem to recall reading that the EU (and maybe Canada, I'm not sure) now requires that certain appliances have improved power factor - computers for example. PF correction apparently helps reduce carbon emissions from powerplants, though how much I can't say. Yes, this does cost more. It requires additional circuitry.
But now we come back to that big IF. The gadget under discussion here does not sound like an effective power factor correction device. Therefore, not only do I not think it will save you money on your power bill, you will be fooling yourself if you feel virtuous about your "real" energy savings and carbon emissions reduction.
If you really want to improve your power factor, don't spend your money on this gimmick. Spent $25 or so and get a Kill-A-Watt or similar consumption meter which measures power factor. Plug your appliances into it, and see which ones have the lowest power factor. Use them less. Take the meter along when you shop for appliances and look first for the Energy Star appliances, then check each with your meter.
Just for grins, try your shiny new power factor meter on a couple of cheap compact fluorescent lamps, then on some better CFs, and finally on a couple of high quality electronic ballast fluorescents. I think you'll find the results intriguing.
But I suggest that you not waste your money on this KVAR gadget.
In Canada there is no residential requirements or measument of power factor.
Residential power is NOT billed based on power factor.
Improving power factor does NOT reduce the REAL power dissipated in loads.
Adjustments to power factor are made for large industrial loads since the high reactive power demand requires the POCO to install larger equipment and then NOT be able to bill for it.
Adjusting power factor does NOT save power on your meter.
The very slight change in losses in residential wiring is very small.
I^2 * R losses occur for the reactive power, and only when the load is actually running.
I am not here to sell this item nor do I want to discourage it. I have a pu1200 kvar box on my home in Florida. It was installed well over a month ago. For the first time this year my monthly kilowatt hrs went below what it was last year at this time, with the same amount of billing days. My bills have been averaging $325.00-$350.00 per month for the summer. This past bill was $287.00. I did not achieve a huge savings but it was a savings. As far as installing a box on a home that has less than $250.00 month bill I personally would not bother for the investment would take years to recover. These boxes can be purchased on Ebay for less than $300.00. It appears as though some people are selling them for alot more. In Florida an a/c unit, pool pump, irrigation pump runs year round if you have them, plus all the other inductive loads in a house, yes they do not run as frequently December- February but they are on most of the year. I dont think some one living in the North would benefit as much during the long winters. I will keep every one posted on how well this unit works FOR ME! I certainly think I will need more bills to compare for the next year but so far it appears to be working. As far as the surge protection this has, (2000 Joules) it is not much more than a $8.00 power strip offers, but it protects your entire house.
"...with the same amount of billing days..."
To bad you are billed by the kW-hr and not by days.
You have no idea if the loads are the same this year as last.
You could try to compare them by looking up the degree-cooling days for your location.
fwiw. Just got a power bill yesterday.
I'm in St Pete Florida - central florida on the gulf.
My neighbor called me earlier today. I forget exactly what her last months power bill was but she had called me and told me like she does every month, comparing & complaining why hers is so much more than mine ... Her bill was something just under $400 last month.
Today I told her my bill was about $80 bucks less than last months - To which she replied, hers was $84 less.
So anyways, cooler nights this past month are helping reduce the cost of running the a/c.
My KWH's on the bill say the reflect 81% less per day than the comparable same time last month,,, according to my power bill.
Wish I had one of those Kvar or whatever you want to call them hooked to my shallow well pump. It costs me about 5 kwh times 13cents every sunday to water the lawn. If I had one on the refridge that uses 1.67kwh's per day - & one on the dehumidifier that uses about 3kwh's per day.... it all adds up. Hey - Maybe it could save me money!
Hi Guys, just for fun:
Is it possible to lower my PF on purpose? Using coils? Can my appliances or electrical loads support that low PF? Will I be charged less by the POCO?
It's interesting reading all of your comments, brings back memories from school.
UTILITY DOES NOT BILL RESIDENTIAL CUSTOMERS ON poor PF.
From what I remember from theory class 30 years ago poor PF is to the advantage of the home owner. The meter only measures watts and poor PF would cause it to read lower. That is why I keep saying this unit is of no use to the residential homeowner. In my opioin it would cost you money.
"I forget exactly what her last months power bill was but she had called me and told me like she does every month, comparing & complaining why hers is so much more than mine ..."
Most likely because she keeps the AC lower or has a different sun exposure on the house.
Did you know that lot placement and surrounding vegetation directly affects the cooling load on a house?
I will repeat it again,
Residential electric rates are NOT based on power factor.
As I said way back when - PFC would be a good thing to do. You'd be doing the power company a favor. You might even say it's sort of "green," so it's something of a social good. But it wouldn't save you any money.
You can't get something for free. Energy in equals engery out. You can't put in 300 watts and get 500 watts out.
I need a highly technical expanation to convice me how this thing is going save money.
Power Factor correction will not do it in residential.
aboutmt- Nobody believes your product works. I don't believe it either, but I do have an open mind. Comp me a unit and I'll run some real life tests on it for you. Not any of this "I saved $77 last month" crud. I'll report back how much it saves me running the A/C per hour, over an average day, etc, etc. No? That's what I thought.
That KVAR unit must be really great. My electrical use in Aug, 06 was 771 kwh and Aug. o7 was 624 kwh plus my gas use went from 12 ccf to 6 ccf.
The most remarkable thing is that I don't even have a KVAR unit.
He answered every question and the selling point for me were the faces on the electricians when he was done with the presentation.
No offense to anyone here, but not many electricians are electrical engineers. Convince a roomful of PEs, and then maybe I'll sit up and take notice.
I did a little snooping. Interestingly, Greg Taylor is himself not an engineer. Far from it. He is an "electrical energy management consultant." He attended school not at MIT or Cal Tech, but at Vo-Tech in Florida and Georgia Institute of Standards and Technology.
But he has a patent! Of course, the patent office doesn't require proof of efficacy ...
Power factor correct works for very large loads were the I^2R losses can get large.
In vary large loads it can even become a wire size issue.
The POCO likes large users to have a good power factor since transformers have to be sized based on VARs, not watts.
The transformer must supply the required current, even if the load does not need it for the entire cycle.
Industrial users pay rates based on power factor, and sometimes peak power factor (actually minimum since lower PF is worse).
Some large users are not even metered.
An annual measurement is taken on the power they draw over a week (typically), the power factor (or peak factor) measured, and the bill computed based on these readings.
In some places they can even get a discount for running there backup systems if they are placed under POCO control.
Wheb teh demand gets to high, the POCO switches the service over to the backup to relieve the demand on the system.
The overall grid looks very inductive, even if it did not have inductive loads. All those miles of distribution wiring. Capacitors are used i the distribution system to help control surges and try to at least moderate the reactive power.
A serious problem occurs if the load actually swings to capacitive. The whole system is designed for inductive power factor from the generators (actually alternators) on.
Most large load PF correction is on the load side of the on-off switch so the capacitors are disconnected from the power when the load is not operating.
Residential customers pay for kW-hours, and that is real dissipated power. They do not pay for having a lousy power factor directly, but it is built into the rates charged. No discount is offered if you have a 'better' PF.
The watt-hour meter uses a voltage winding and a current winding together to produce the driving torque to the measuring system.
If these waves are out of phase only the overlapping portion produces torque to turn the meter.
This allows it to measure only real power, watts, and ignore reactive power.
Reactive power does no work, and reducing the reactive current will ONLY reduce parasitic losses in the wiring.
Except that amps are NOT power.
Power is amps * volts * POWER FACTOR.
By adjusting the power factor with capacitors the drawn amps WILL be reduced since you have INCREASED the power factor.
There is NO change in the real power drawn (and metered) to the motor.
Induction motors run at a worse power factor when lightly loaded, and the power factor INCREASES as the motor is loaded down and is required to perform more work.
Residential customers are NOT charged by power factor.
You only pay for REAL POWER.
Large customers ARE billed by power factor.
It is to their advantage to have a good power factor (closer to unity) to reduce the charge for the power they DO USE.
These units are USELESS for a residential customer who is NOT BILLED by power factor.
Washing machine motors don't have brushes either. So get all gobblty gook facts straight you try and push one past us.
Here's my 2 cents. I have run into these and the school system has installed them with great success according to the facilities manager. I too was skeptical knowing most utilities don't charge for power correction . This thing is only a capacitor. This thing is presented in a little suitcase with 3 meters the kvar cap and a motor.I was skeptical of the meters. I went to the panel and removed the cover and tested the current there. with little motor running I read 5.9 amps after turning on kvar it dropped to 2.9 amps. I know of people who are claiming 10-20% savings.
This is another old thread that has been resurrected so someone can push their business or product.
Check out the date of membership.
"I went to the panel and removed the cover and tested the current there. with little motor running I read 5.9 amps after turning on kvar it dropped to 2.9 amps. I know of people who are claiming 10-20% savings."
AMPS ARE NOT POWER.
How many times does this have to be pointed out?
Power is measured in watts.
It is the product of amps * volts * POWER FACTOR
You are changing the power factor (making it closer to one).
This will decrease the current (AMPS) but has NO EFFECT on the power being dissipated.
Doesn't V*I=W So less current less Watts?
"Doesn't V*I=W So less current less Watts?"
ONLY for a purely resistive load.
Motors are an inductive load.
By placing a capacitor in parallel with the motor the NET power factor is adjusted.
For users billed by power factor (industrial users) it is to there benefit to get a lower rate per watt by adjusting the power factor.
Power factor shows up in UPS devices also.
Most now quote a VA they support.
Computer power supplies also look inductive because of the step down transformer used.
There have been newer standards that have required the power supplies to add some power factor correction.
A pure inductor would dissipate zero power.
The current and voltage waveforms are 90 degrees apart.
The power factor would be 0 (cos 90 = ZERO).
There is a small loss in the resistance of the wire in a practical inductor, but the power factor remains very small.
I have installed capacitors in some plants with large inductive loads, and I remember Xc canceling Xl to increase power factor. These large plants are penalized for poor power factor. But in the above example with removing the cover, that was a single phase service and not charged for poor power factor. I'm still not understanding that in that case if his current draw is decreased why wouldn't his kilowatt usage not decrease?
Because the load is still going to consume the same amount of real power. Nothing has changed at the point between the load and the correcting device.
The power factor correction device absorbs/supplies reactive current from/to the load during the AC cycle. Thus it reduces the reactive current flowing between the meter and the correcting device, but doesn't change the actual power consumed in the load. Since the meter doesn't charge for the reactive current/power it doesn't change the meter reading.
In the equation Power = Volts * (Amps * PF) at the meter, the product in parenthesis has not changed even though amps and PF have.
The only (trivial) savings is the reduced I-squared R loss in the wire between the meter and correcting device.
i am very familiar with the school distric in delaware they sent back over 20 units alone because of bad capacitors,the distric is no longer having this brand of unit installed because of the product failure rate.ya great product...lol
"...no need to respond with another negative comment about how much this product doesn't work though..."
Every reason to since you are selling bovine scatology.
PF is NOT a measure of efficiency.
Residential users are NOT charged by PF, just real dissipated power.
"(use a meter and measure how much power you draw with a unit and with out...)- but also your real current is decreasing because you are only supplying enough current to keep the electrical motors running which is much less current than to magnetize the coils in the inductive elements."
The only meter that works for this is a true watt-hour meter.
You cannot measure voltage and current and obtain dissipated power.
If the waveform for current is a sine wave, you can measure the power factor and compute dissipated power.
If the waveform is NOT a sine wave (a rather common occurrence with many electronic loads) you need a watt-hour meter.
There are some electronic models (big $$), but they still have accuracy problems with non-sinusoidal waveforms, and the more distorted the waveform the more the error.
The only way to use them for accurate measurements is to verify the current waveform is within the units capabilities.
PF correction has NO advantage to a homeowner.
It will not save you enough money on the I^2*R losses to ever pay for the unit, or the slight losses IT has.
Capacitors 'leak' and dissipate a very small amount of power asll by themselves.
I thought/hoped this topic was long since laid to rest. I guess not.
It must be a zombie topic.
It simply refuses to die.
It has a use for a home owner who has a large number of inductive loads. Keep raving about how much this is spam and how much this doesn't work... The best way for people to save money on the bill is just to stop using as much... i.e. raise your thermostat - but for those people who have big houses and need several AC units, and who have a spa motor and who have a pool motor... etc... I'm telling you - this helps.
BTW - I literally watched the meter slow down on most recent unit installed. (yes you can quote this and come up with something to say about it - maybe like 'well where's the video' or 'he's so full of it...'.) I'm not posting on here to be argumentative but just to challenge this misconception that consumers are not charged based on powerfactor - they are not charged penalties for low pf, no. But if your equipment draws more real current to makeup for the KVa not supplied by the utility company due to distribution limitations - this will translate to more power.
You can go to wikipedia also - there was a good article on it there as well. Yes - a non sinusoidal wave form (like circuits with AC to DC rectifiers in it) can't have the pf corrected with capacitance alone due to resonance/harmonic changes in the wave form (according to wiki - I haven't went back to electromagnetic fields text book).
Here's a quote from wiki also...
For example, to get 1 kW of real power, if the power factor is unity, 1 kVA of apparent power needs to be transferred (1 kW 1 = 1 kVA). At low values of power factor, more apparent power needs to be transferred to get the same real power. To get 1 kW of real power at 0.2 power factor, 5 kVA of apparent power needs to be transferred (1 kW Ã· 0.2 = 5 kVA). This apparent power must be produced and transmitted to the load in the conventional fashion, and is subject to the usual distributed losses in the production and transmission processes.
I think on the next one I see I'll do a video of the meter - I think that would put this to rest...
Like I said - I'm not an engineer or someone who has worked in the power industry. I'm just making notes based on observation. Spam? or raising awareness? Whatever you want to call it.
Here is a link that might be useful: PF per Wiki
Give it up. If these things actually "slowed" a typical household KWHr meter, they would either be (A)illegal or (B)installed on 99.44% of homes already.
"This apparent power must be produced and transmitted to the load in the conventional fashion, and is subject to the usual distributed losses in the production and transmission processes."
And these losses DO NOT appear directly on your bill since your meter is AFTER the "production and transmission processes".
These losses ARE why large users are billed for poor power factor.
It costs the utility money to install the larger equipment to meet the V-A demand, and increases the distribution losses.
Unless the POCO wants to give you a price break for a better PF and not contributing to the network losses, why should you spend money solely for their benefit?
"And these losses DO NOT appear directly on your bill since your meter is AFTER the "production and transmission processes".
Unless the POCO wants to give you a price break for a better PF and not contributing to the network losses, why should you spend money solely for their benefit?"
Sorry - I've done a search for this acronym "POCO" - what is that again?
The main thing your leaving out of consideration is that line loss isn't the only source of savings... the source of savings is where the electric motor pulls less energy (in the form of current) to constantly spin the motor and keep/create the EM Field established around the coil.
Even the department of energy has talked about this very issue - here's a quote:
[Why Improve Your Power Factor?
Some of the benefits of improving your power factor are as follows:
Your utility bill will be smaller. Low power factor requires an increase in the electric utilitys generation and
transmission capacity to handle the reactive power component caused by inductive loads. Utilities usually
charge a penalty fee to customers with power factors less than 0.95. You can avoid this additional fee by
increasing your power factor.
Your electrical systems branch capacity will increase. Uncorrected power factor will cause power losses in your
distribution system. You may experience voltage drops as power losses increase. Excessive voltage drops can
cause overheating and premature failure of motors and other inductive equipment.]
The overheating of motors they are talking about in the last sentence is from the over supply of real current since it does not provide reactive current to most customers (excepting industrial or large commercial that have that expensive equipment your talking about). What the device in question does is charge a capacitor, supply the motor as it needs reactive current locally (at the box or motor), then exchanges this current between the inductive(motors)/capacitive(KVAR unit) elements.
Bottom line - if your bill is under $250 a month I wouldn't even think about buying one of these units. If its more - it may be something to think about. Not to sound too much like a salesman (I really do want to help people and the environment - thats why I'm behind this product line and concept)- it doesn't only supply reactive current locally but a modest surge protection - for your whole house if installed at the box.
The case I mentioned had a bill over $500/ month in electricity (big AC unit, local well pump, those big Washer/Dryer units, Refrigerator, Freezer - I think thats it) - We just tested it with the AC on not any other loads - with and without the unit. Like I said the amount the meter turned over the course of (1) hour decreased.
Do you see what I'm saying as far as supplying reactive current (for non-linear - i.e. inductive loads) locally so the Utility doesn't have to over-supply real current or do you disagree with that statement?
I am not looking to save money with this device.
I was wondering if this device might help with the lights dimming when my air conditioner starts. When the ac starts, all the light in my house dim. I was thinking that since this device is a capacitor, it might help with this.
Any thoughts? If not, are there other options/solutions to help with this.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
It is a given that the purveyors of these devices will continue with their specious arguments, obfuscating language, and will continue to find gullible purchasers. The same type people tout the fuel saving devices for automobiles and find their purchasers in the same group. Anyone interested in a magic cream that increases the size of some of the more private parts of the human anatomy? Same (lack of) integrity involved in such marketing. I will not buy PF correction equipment until the POCO (Power Company) offers residential rates are favorable for such equipment. Read this and keep your money in your pocket.
Here is a link that might be useful: Power factor
Lights dim because the startup current is large, but a lot of it is in-phase current that represents true power. I doubt that even perfect power factor correction would reduce the surge enough to matter on your lights.
Lets take this in pieces
"Sorry - I've done a search for this acronym "POCO" - what is that again?"
"The main thing your leaving out of consideration is that line loss isn't the only source of savings... the source of savings is where the electric motor pulls less energy (in the form of current) to constantly spin the motor and keep/create the EM Field established around the coil."
Current is NOT power.
Power = Current x Voltage x Power Factor.
Reducing current does not necessarily reduce real power.
"Even the department of energy has talked about this very issue - here's a quote:
[Why Improve Your Power Factor?
Some of the benefits of improving your power factor are as follows:
Your utility bill will be smaller. Low power factor requires an increase in the electric utilitys generation and
transmission capacity to handle the reactive power component caused by inductive loads. Utilities usually
charge a penalty fee to customers with power factors less than 0.95. You can avoid this additional fee by
increasing your power factor.
NOT TRUE for residential customers.
You are NOT billed for power factor.
" Your electrical systems branch capacity will increase. Uncorrected power factor will cause power losses in your
distribution system. You may experience voltage drops as power losses increase. Excessive voltage drops can
cause overheating and premature failure of motors and other inductive equipment.] "
Notice the word "distribution system"?
You are not billed directly for distribution losses, and will NOT receive a credit for reducing them.
They are included in your rate and are NOT adjusted for residential users.
"The overheating of motors they are talking about in the last sentence is from the over supply of real current since it does not provide reactive current to most customers (excepting industrial or large commercial that have that expensive equipment your talking about)."
You cannot have an "over supply of real current."
Loads pull current based on their impedance on the POCO grid impedance (not a factor for residential loads).
"What the device in question does is charge a capacitor, supply the motor as it needs reactive current locally (at the box or motor), then exchanges this current between the inductive(motors)/capacitive(KVAR unit) elements."
What the device does is place a capacitor n series with your line to adjust the phase of the overall load.
It does NOT "supply the motor as it needs reactive current locally."
It adjusts the phase by adding capacitive reactance to the inductive load.
IF the load is inductive.
"Bottom line - if your bill is under $250 a month I wouldn't even think about buying one of these units. If its more - it may be something to think about. Not to sound too much like a salesman (I really do want to help people and the environment - thats why I'm behind this product line and concept)- it doesn't only supply reactive current locally but a modest surge protection - for your whole house if installed at the box."
"The case I mentioned had a bill over $500/ month in electricity (big AC unit, local well pump, those big Washer/Dryer units, Refrigerator, Freezer - I think thats it) - We just tested it with the AC on not any other loads - with and without the unit. Like I said the amount the meter turned over the course of (1) hour decreased."
"Do you see what I'm saying as far as supplying reactive current (for non-linear - i.e. inductive loads) locally so the Utility doesn't have to over-supply real current or do you disagree with that statement? "
The utility must size the equipment (mostly pole transformers) fort the V-A load present.
They do NOT give you a price break for helping reduce the reactive power in residential billing.
While reactive power increases the utilities expenses and losses, you are not paying for them directly.
They are NOT measured by a watt-hour meter.
Watt-hour meters measure REAL power.
The reactive component is out of phase in the meter windings and does NOT register.
There are meters that can measure reactive power but they are not used in single family residential.
They are used in industrial and very occasionally apartment buildings.
"Do you see what I'm saying as far as supplying reactive current (for non-linear - i.e. inductive loads)"
Brickeyee has covered most of this really well. I'll add that reactive loads are linear. Power-factor correction of the sort being discussed in this thread does little to nothing for nonlinear loads, even when the POCO is charging you for power factor.
Will this topic never die? Here is my contribution toward that goal.
I'd like to read Brickeye's opinion of the Gesper. He's an electrical engineer who knows all about this stuff. Otherwise it's just more of the same nonsense to me. How it can draw 2A line side and provide 2.5A load side at the same voltage is better than perpetual motion. I'm thinking it doesn't maintain voltage but lowers it on the secondary side. Again, with so little technical info from the company on how it works it seems very suspicious to me.
"G.E.S.P.E.R. (green energy surge protection energy reducer)"
Surges do not even register on a kW-hr meter.
They are voltage surges, and while they can do damage to electronics there is no current with the voltage surge until something fails.
The current that then flows is far outside the capacity of a kW-hr meter to register it has ZERO effect on the power measured.
kW-hr meters are small electric motors with a specific combination of current and voltage to turn the dials in the meter.
High frequency anomalies on the power line are unable to overcome the inertia of the mechanical portions of the meter (or the time constants in a completely electronic meter)and do not register
cjake8 registered for these forums just before posting as above. The claimed savings do not exist. So I suspect that cjake8 really does have a personal profit motive in the post.
How is an electric bill reduced? Usually you pay for less KWH per month. Is that not right?
In response to bus driver, How do you know savings do not exist? Have you ever used or looked at a gesper? What makes you an expert on savings?
If I had a unit, I would send it to brickeyee today.
So you have personal experience with these devices where they have been used throughout US and Mexico, but you don't sell them or have any interest in marketing them? And you've known about these great savings for years but haven't bought one yourself?
Please tell us how you could have such extensive experience with them? What line of business are you in? Or do you just take vacation time and travel all over the US and Mexico talking to people about their experience with these units just for fun? Personally I'd rather spend my vacation on a beach sipping margaritas, but I guess to each his own.
I have forgone my 401(K) and other investments and instead have purchased items like this and the water4gas.com devices for my car. Together with the $20 per month I save on paper towels (Hey Vince spells it out in the commercial) by using ShamWows and I'm one the easy road to riches....
I also purchased the automotive throttle tornado thing that causes a vortex in your intake to save like 50% on your gas mileage. Right now between the hydrolizer, gas tornado, and magnetic fuel filter my car makes gas going down the road. I'm sticking it to BIG OIL!
I'm glad to see a product out there that will allow me to screw the utility company too! I can't wait to get one (or a dozen) of these!
That being said I feel guilty for continuing this thread......
Lets examione some claims right off the DESPER web site.
"GESPER will eliminate most of the static electricity that can cause major damage to electronics. This makes your power supply more energy efficient."
Static electricity is generated in a number of ways.
After walking across the carpet the sprak you get when touching metallic objects (even is they are not grounded) is static electricity.
GESPER cannot protect, prevent, or "eliminate" this source.
If they are referring to lightning as "static electricity" they are sort of right, but surge suppressors are all about the same. MOV (Metal Oxide Varistors) are the most common protection device.
They start to conduct at a voltage above the normal operating voltage of a circuit, and thus clamp the voltage by dumping current to ground.
There are other devices like spark gaps, TVS diodes, and zener diodes (and others) that can perform the same function
They all have applications in certain places.
There is NO information about what devices are in a "GESPER."
None of these devices are absolute protection, and in things like TELCO woring at the central office a cascade of devices are used to provide protection from lightning strikes.
Spark gaps can handle larger voltages and currents, but still allow a significant rise downstream.
MOVs are the next line of defense. They can clamp at lower voltages, but are damaged each time they break over and conduct.
TVS or zener diodes are often the next line, since they can operate at even lower break over voltages, but without the other devices in front are easily damaged by high current.
"With the improved efficiency, the GESPER also offers savings on the kWh (energy) consumed by improving the current (amps), voltage, power factor, kVAR, and reduce harmonics."
Residential power is NOT billed for V-A (reactive power). Poor power factor does not increase a residential bill to any degree. The wire loses from a poor power factor after the meter are not significant.
Reducing the current is NOT reducing the power.
Improving the power factor does NOT reduce the power used.
Harmonics do NOT register on a Watt-hour meter.
There is an entire market aimed at ripping off people who do not understand electricity and how it is measured and delivered.
This is another one of those products.
I'm confused if the KVAR units don't save any money what should we do with the average 23% savings we've achieved in the last 6 months. E-mail me and i'll direct you to a site where we show a dramatic amperage drop. If amps times volts equals watts, guess what? Stop with the double reverse, mumbo gumbo and lets call a spade a spade. Maybe we should use the money to educate the nay-sayers about reactive energy and how it wastes electricity. Rich
Can't this thread die yet?
Stop with the double reverse, mumbo gumbo and lets call a spade a spade.
Yah, stop talking about scientific facts and look at a bit of anecdotal evidence created by marketing teams looking to make a quick buck.
Threads die after 150 posts. So I guess this one will keep popping up for a while.
greg h Do you have any idea what reactive energy is? Get your "scientific facts" together and find out what happens when you eliminate reactive energy through capacitance. Thats why they refer to reactive energy as imaginary power so you guys can wonder what happenened instead of trying to figure out how it happened.
Brickyee has a PHD in Electrical engineering. He does not post "mumbo gumbo." Ok, lets go another direction. Since the metering and billing for residential service does not measure reactive power and reactive power does not affect residential meters, please explain how these devices help lower power bills. Technical explanation, please. And for the Gesper, how are reactive power and surges related to each other?
Here is #90.
"If amps times volts equals watts ..."
ONLY for a resistance load.
For all other loads (especially motors) power = amps * volts * POWER FACTOR.
The power factor accounts for the electrical angle between the voltage waveform and the current waveform.
A perfect iductor would have ZERO power dissipated since its power factor (PF) would be ZERO.
The same applies to a perfect capacitor, PF = 0.
It seems very easy to slap a capacitor across the lines when an inductive load is present (and most loads look inductive) and then show the current has decreased.
The current has decreased by the same amount as the power factor has been improved.
There is NO CHANGE in the real power being measured by the meter.
Brickeyee or anyone intrested please e-mail me ar email@example.com and I will direct you to a website where we conducted a residential, commercial and industrial sizing using the patented KVAR power factor optimization equippment. The meters don't lie! In addition why would our local power company CL-P be offering power factor improvement rebate incentives if this technoogy does not work?
OK. All of you out there actually have NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!
You are billed in kilo-watt-hours. This means Volts*Amps=Watts; you are billed by how many Thousand (hence the kilo part) Watts you consume PER HOUR!!!
Power factor correction installed at the panel (yes it's capacitors installed in parallel to your entire electrical system) help balance out the power factor imbalance in your system, allowing your inductive motors to draw LESS on the SUPPLY SIDE while still drawing the same amount of power from the system (supplemented by the capacitors), therefore drawing LESS AMPERAGE (see above for explanation of what KWA is), therefore WILL lower your electric bill because the meter "sees" less watts being consumed.
Capacitors STOP charging when they are fully charged, and DO NOT DRAW ANY POWER WHEN FULLY CHARGED!!!
So before I get all the hate mail, etc from all of you 'experts' on this topic, let me state I was one of the skeptics, I bought one & installed it in my house, used it for a YEAR, reduced my overall consumption by 12.5%, and I live in SE PA. I am an electrician, and I sell & install them. As such, I DO NOT SELL OR RECOMMEND INSTALLATION OF ANY PRODUCT UNLESS I HAVE TESTED OR CURRENTLY USE IT MY OWN HOME!!!!
If you don't believe, then feel free to do your own ACTUAL TESTING of a product before you anecdotally slam it!!!
If you have ACTUALLY TESTED IT (brickeyee - if power factor was 'Zero' then you'd have an extremely INEFFICIENT MOTOR - A PF of 1 is actually the MOST EFFICIENT, so you've got your numbers, and your theory backwards!!), then let's hear back from you, as to why you do or don't recommend the product, huh???
As always, "Live Safe Electrically".
vacman; can you list that website here please? I'm not interested in sending my e-mail address to anyone in a forum.
I'll give you the website with the understanding that these videos are for education only. I don't want the folks at I Village to think I'm trying to pull a fast one over on them by not signing up as a business affiliate, but I'm new to this and I'm confused on how to set-up an account. The videos are on www.powerfactorsplus.com and we created this site to help people understand how this technoogy works and how it can help you.
What do you mean "DO NOT DRAW ANY POWER WHEN FULLY CHARGED!!!"?? Unless your house runs on DC, that logic is flawed. My house is wired for 120/240 AC like 99 percent of those in the US.
pa electricman registered for this forum today. And his post is baloney.
Here is a legitimate, professional study of residential power factor correction. No one disputes that it is potentially beneficial- to the power company. Read the last sentence in the next to last paragraph on page 13. It sums up what Brickyee and others have been saying. Notice on page 11 that the study included using KVAR meters retrofitted to two homes. The homes, like all typical homes, did not previously have KVAR meters.
At long last, have you KVAR charlatans no shame at all! Stop trying to victimize the gullible!
Here is a link that might be useful: PDF
Guys lets end this nonsense. You must be like the guys who stood on the shore and laughed so hard about "Fultons Folly" that when they finally stopped laughing and looked around something was missing. Go to you tube and have some laughs with kvar energy saving units. A word to the wise is sufficient don't miss the boat!
hey bus driver it's all about balance. When one of your tires is low it affects the balance of the entire bus, right? Well, when your power factor is low your motors require much more energy and they tend to upset the balance of the grid. That's why progressive utility companies offer power factor improvement incentive programs while the laggards intitute a power factor penalty. How is this possible am I missing something. Go to you tube you boob. Sorry had to direct you Take care Rich
here is one more.
Hey bus driver - stick to driving buses - it's probably the only thing you are almost competent at!!!
The only reason I posted was I'm tiored of reading all of your anecdotal slamming of proiducts you haven't tried.
Like I said - HAVE ANY OF YOU NAY-SAYERS TESTED ANY OF THESE UNITS IN YOUR OWN HOME???
UNTIL THEN, LET'S SHUT THE PIE HOLE AND LET THE PUBLIC THAT'S SAVING REAL MONEY CONTINUE TO DO SO WITHOUT HAVING TO READ ALL THE CRAP OFF YOUR KEYBOARD!!!
TEST IT YOURSELF OR SHUT UP!!!!
As always - 'Live Safe Electrically'
Residential power is NOT billed for power factor.
Decreasing current to a motor by adjusting power factor does NOT change the total power drawn.
'Case studies' are a BS way to create hype in engineering.
Notice there is no independent lab testing showing the benefit of these device?
Power factor costs the utility money since transformers are sized for the volt-ampere load they must support.
Even if some of the power is reactive and NOT dissipated and billable, it creates losses in the grid.
If the POCO offers you a rate cut for correcting your power factor then it might be worth doing some adjustment.
Very large users often pay based on both peak real power AND worst power factor.
It is worthwhile to adjust if the rate for dissipated (AKA 'real') power is based on power factor and you have large loads (typically inductive motors).
For about the tenth time, power is amps * volts * power factor.
When you adjust the power factor of a motor by adding capacitors the current goes down, but it is by the same proportion the power factor goes UP.
We are not required to test the claims of vendors selling bovine scatology.
It is up to the vendor to provide verifiable third party lab test results backing the claims being made.
Notice that the man from pa uses the time-tested method of shouting when he has nothing to say.
Brickeye I want you to go to you tube and type kvar energy savings units I want you to go to the residential applications "Show me the money" I want uou to look at the video showing the savings on the actual bills and then I want you to tell what to do with with the money they saved!
I know, we should use it to get you an education because I'm sure the roughest years three years of your life was the fifth grade. If you ever do get to understand how this technology works I expect an apology to all those whose intelligence you have insulted. Your living proof that "ignorence is bliss."
From an electrical pro forum.
Here is a link that might be useful: Professional electricians
YouTube has opposing claims about everything. Wonder why this TV station has not been sued by the makers and sellers of this device?
Here is a link that might be useful: YouTube
Check out the links within this web page as well as the information on the page.
Here is a link that might be useful: KVAR scams
Read through these messages.
Here is a link that might be useful: Contractor talk.
PA Electric Man and Vacman 20008 : you stoop to insulting electrical professionals, including one with a PhD in electrical engineering, so that you can hawk worthless pieces of junk for money far in excess of their worth.
There is no way that these capacitors in fancy boxes that you are pushing can have the effect that you claim, and this is something that is well understood by electricians and electrical engineers. These are such basic concepts that testing would serve little purpose as it would only confirm what is already well understood.
Your continued, strident repetitions of an obviously-incorrect understanding of basic AC/capacitor theory goes well beyond simple ignorance - you know that you are wrong, but you deliberately repeating it anyway in the hope that you will convince uneducated people into parting with their hard-earned money. This makes you both scammers of the very worst type.
Now please go away and peddle your crap somewhere else.
Here is number 112.
Bus driver i want to thank for the pdf file from the whitby hydro energy services corp. It's very informative and it proves how effective power factor improvement can benefit both the customer and the grid. It's a shame you couldn't understand it. Your electrician buddy tiny tim is grouping all power factor improvement products together and this proves how shollow and short sided his views are. Until you go to you tube and visit kvar energy savings unit residential application and learn how this suff works please don't post anymore oppinions because it's obvious you got your head up your ass!
More real information.
Here is a link that might be useful: From a power company
More from pros.
Here is a link that might be useful: Another forum
Credibility? This Old House or YouTube?
Here is a link that might be useful: This Old House
Here is a link that might be useful: The Watt
Newspaper names scammer.
Here is a link that might be useful: The Tampa Tribune
Bus driver, boy do you know how to optimize the stupid factor. I find it hard to believe that you read something that is pro-kvar and you mis-interpret it and refer to some idiot who posted a responce to the article. Please explain how you could have mis-understood this quote from the article "THE BETTER BUSINESS BUREAU and the ATTORNEY GENERALS OFFICE have recieved NO complaints against Southern Energy Concepts or the products manufacturer,Kvar energy savings of Port Orange." "We have a file on Kvar energy savings," claims Judy Pepper president and CEO of the central Florida Better Business Bureau. "This year we've had about 71 inquiries, not complaints." O.K I can't wait to hear you spin on this.
Energy Star website.
Here is a link that might be useful: Energy Star
It's simple, they market it as a surge supressor and their claims are valid
"It's simple, they market it as a surge supressor(sic) and their claims are valid"
Who is "they"? Was this response intended for a different thread?
"Amperage surge protection for all your home equipment'
All of them hype it, KEC for one
There is some proven validity to their advertisements
For several months, zl700 has posted on several forums answers that are helpful and serious. But this claim that KVAR units and surge protectors are the same thing does not match any technical data with which I am familiar. Obviously, a device could include both functions. But most of them do not, in their hype, claim to perform both functions. And the post of Mon, Sep 22, 08 at 14:59: "--their claims are valid" and the post of Tue, Sep 23, 08 at 10:01: "There is some proven validity to their advertisements".
Surge protectors are available from legitimate suppliers, SquareD and Woods, for example, for far less than the $349.00 than one purveyor asks for his device.
The fact remains that utilities do not measure, nor bill for, power factor for residential customers. And the YouTube demonstrations of the power factor of electric motors are not realistic. The motor they show has no load, is doing no work. Motors that are loaded have better power factors and are at their best when fully loaded. No one deliberately runs a motor in their home without a load for more than a few moments. Refrigeration devices such as air conditioners, heat pumps, refrigerators, and freezers are designed and built to have the motors fully loaded. That results in maximum efficiency and lower manufacturing cost. Oversized motors cost more.
One KVAR marketer even contends that their unit lowers the cost of operating an electric water heater. The water heater has a power factor of 1, perfection. No device can improve on that. The hype is baloney.
Let's suppose for a moment that the power billing at your residence did measure and bill based on power factor. These devices, as manufactured and installed at present, might increase your power bill. A perfect power factor is 1 (unity). A less-than perfect power factor is less than 1, expressed as a decimal, .85pf for example. Inductance (motors, computer loads, fluorescent lights) causes the current (amperage) to lag the voltage. Capacitance causes the current to lead the voltage, the opposite effect. These devices use capacitors and recommend installing so they they are online 24/7. If no offsetting and matching inductance loads are online, the capacitors alone cause as much problem for the power factor as do the inductive loads alone. The only improvement for power factor is when lagging and leading devices are matched and are online only at the same times.
Interestingly, synchronous motors have the same effect on power factor as do capacitors, which is the opposite of induction motors. Other than for clocks, synchronous motors are nor practical for household use. But for industry where motors run for long hours without stopping, some of the machinery may use synchronous motors to both power that machinery and improve power factor.
Once again, I have a unit installed on my panel.
My electric usage patterns have increased last year, due to more A/C, laundry, dishwasher, well pump, all due to a second child.
My BILL has gone DOWN since installing this unit. (Yes - even after adjusting for temperature variances from last year)
SO - Explain again how "It doesn't work, etc.etc.etc.etc.."
Try it youself, or SHUT THE PIE HOLE!!!
BTW - I STILL WON"T SELL A PRODUCT TO MY CUSTOMERS THAT DOESN'T WORK!!! AND THIS DOES!!!!!
Anyone who want's copies of my BILLS...JUST LET ME KNOW!!!
Your command does not become my imperative. Your power bills do not concern me. The fleecing of gullible consumers does concern me. There is sufficient information on this thread and at the links provided to clarify the issue for those who honestly seek enlightenment.
My electric bill is less than it was last year too. I guess someone has covertly installed one of these units in my house, I had better go look for it...#128
Busdriver the problem with posting is you can't read the delivery, I was poking fun.
However, by theory a capacitor can absorb energy so is it a surge protector?
:-) ;-) :-)
And, in review, a few choice quotes from the KVAR/GESPER borg...
I know, we should use it to get you an education because I'm sure the roughest years three years [sic] of your life was [sic] the fifth grade.
Hey bus driver - stick to driving buses - it's probably the only thing you are almost competent at!!!
Your electrician buddy tiny tim is grouping all power factor improvement products together and this proves how shollow [sic] and short sided [sic] his views are.
Bus driver, boy do you know how to optimize the stupid factor.
Try it youself, [sic] or SHUT THE PIE HOLE!!!
...please don't post anymore oppinions [sic] because it's obvious you got your head up your ass!
Go to you tube you boob.
And the pity of it is that the borg seems clueless about why its arguments are gaining no traction here.
Enough of these insulting, unjustified and childish personal attacks aimed at well-respected contributors to this forum who regularly give of their time to answer electrical wiring questions raised by DIYers in good faith. PLEASE!
Bus Driver I am asking a favor from you. Plase go to you tube and type in "Kvar energy savings unit" you will see the videos that Rob and I went out of our way record. The most important aspect of the videos is how open and honest we were while taping. When I first became aware of KVAR I was more skepticle then you. So before I ever considered selling these I had to be convinced myself. Now give me about 20 minutes and watch the videos. I want you to be fair and objective but I also want your honest opinion. How would uou explain what's happening here? Thanks, Rich.
I went and watched some of your video... To be honest I didn't even make it through the first one that came up in my search when I typed in "Kvar energy savings unit.
I suggest you guys at least get your terminology right while doing your little presentations.
Without very defined control of the load you have NOTHING.
My power bill, in kW-hr, was lower this year also.
A lower A/C load this summer resulted in far fewer degree-cooling days.
Engineering does not work on 'case studies' or any other BS of adjusting power factor to save kW-hr on te meter.
A capacitor across the power lines will have a limited ability to reduce voltage surges.
Compared to the typical POCO disturbance it is ineffective for any normal load.
Search for 'CBEMA curve' and then figure out what capacitance would be required to produce any effective surge protection.
You cannot afford it.
Surges are dealt with by clamping the line voltage, most commonly with MOV (Meta Oxide Varistor) devices.
They are a series of junctions set to break down above the normal operating voltage.
The problem is that there is no current limit, and every time they break over they are damaged.
Some portion of the junctions fuse, and no longer have any break over voltage.
Eventually the break over voltage is so low that the device conducts at regular operating voltages and is quickly destroyed.
While P. T. Barnum is often credited with "There's a sucker born every minute" you are trying to keep up with him.
Hexus Thanks for your advice. Your right I should have been more specific go to "kvar energy saving unit" and go to any videos entered by vacman. (I'm the good looking guy) I would appreciate your comments as well. Brikeyee I know you'll want to get in on this so have fun.
# 134, sixteen to go. If the utility co. says they don,t measure that way for residentual, then why.....?
#136 Guess I'm a slow poster.
#137 Is it really true that this thread will turn into a pumpkin when it hits 150? Oh, I hope so.
To answer the original post...yes
Is it exactly 150, or is it adjusted for power factor?
Yikes, Wayne, you snuck in there on me. So my last post should have been 140, right? And this one 141?
This higher math is so confusing.
I have looked all over the house and cannot find a "KVAR unit", however my electric bill is lower. Could it be hidden in my wife's hairdryer?
If you wire 143 KVAR's in parallel how much will you save?
Hmmm. I think the conservative projection is 143 x 12.5%, or 1785.5%--even more if you don't have an electric hot water heater or oven/range.
The real question is this: How many wire nuts will it take? These need to be amortized and depreciated over the expected life of the KVAR.
Wayne: Your wife still has hair? I really envy you, man, but I seriously doubt you have a KVAR.
When I put in my KVAR, my wife's hair fell out within a few weeks. But the good news is that we've saved an average of 51.8% on our monthly shampoo bill.
There is a KVAR Distributor in Florida with 145 units listed for sale, CHEAP
Gee.....the technology & equipment is (ready here it comes) UL Listed & Tested, CSA Approved, CE Approved, NASA Tested, Cleaner & Greener Certified, ROHS Certified (Look it all up if you don't believe me - the Internet is a wonderful thing).....Do you really think the EU & Canada would allow these things to be sold & installed if they weren't tested & approved??? Nope - they don't!!!....here's a little light reading if you're so inclined......
And there's plenty more out there too.....
BTW - Still waiting for one of you bloviators to post the links to all those blogs out there from ACTUAL people that used the devices & had to get their money back......still waiting...........still.........waiting.........
Theory is one thing....application is another one altogether......"He who can, does. He who can't, teaches"
They work......try it.........they all have a money-back guarantee if they don't work......
Wait a minute....cooler temps??? Are you saying that Al Gore is wrong & that global warming is nothing but a scam??? And I thought it was warmer this summer where I was.......
Have you read any of the links that bus driver posted?
Here's another one. This guy has tested several devices that reader's have sent him and none of them worked. And he talked to a couple of different people at different utility companies that told him that they don't work for residential users.
Is that good enough? It's exactly what you asked for.
Here is a link that might be useful: KVAR units don't work
No, it's actually not. He's onlt had the one you plug in at the receptacle. I agree that those are junk. I read this "expert's" blog, and he's obviously biased. He won't do any "impartial" testing unless he's sent one for free. Sorry, but if I gave one to every skeptic that wanted to "test" it, then I'd go broke. I have yet to have a customer ask for money back on this product.
As I said before, I WAS a skeptic, until I purchased one for MY HOME, and it worked FOR ME!
Has ANYONE on this thread ACTUALLY used one in their OWN RESIDENCE?
Like I said before...Theory & applications are two totally different things.
All the "examples" left between bus stops read this way - "these things don't APPEAR to be feasible", "I THINK these are scams", theory says they SHOULDN'T work", etc.
I have yet to see someone actually say they purchased the unit and had to get their money back.
Do a search for (including quotes) "KVAR didn't work for me", "Power Saver didn't work for me" and see what you get.
Theory & applications are two totally different things.
No, actually, they are not two totally different things.
If you know anything at all about the scientific method, surely you must know that a theory is refuted if conflicting empirical results can be demonstrated under measurable and replicable conditions.
What Brickeyee, Bus Driver and others have based their arguments upon are well-accepted scientific theories constituting testable models verified through empirical observation. They are not mere conjecture or hypotheses in the nature of personal opinions or beliefs. Nor are they mere ideals that have no relationship to actual fact.
If you, by virtue of uncontrolled "experiments" in your garage, can demonstrate that any of these theories do not comport with your replicable empirical evidence, I'd say you have a Nobel Prize in your future.
For more information on what is meant by a scientific theory, try the link below.
149....Be my guest.
Here is a link that might be useful: Primer on scientific theories
And here is 150.
151 Beers on the wall, 151 beers........
Will this bovine scatology never die?
Hey guys, I'm in shock. Not one person has written anything negative about my videos on YOU TUBE "kvar energy savings unit" Not one person has posted anything negative. It's lonely at the top. It would be nice if some of you guys would man-up and apologize. Bus driver I hope your not asleep at the wheel. Love,Rich the Vac-man
Apparently this previous link post was ignored by these scammers. Why not demand an apology from the US Government?
"About ENERGY STAR
ENERGY STAR is a joint program of the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency and the U.S. Department of Energy helping us all save money and protect the environment through energy efficient products and practices."
Do Power Factor Correction Devices (sometimes called Amp Reduction Units or KVAR) really save money? Can they earn the ENERGY STAR label?
ENERGY STAR does not qualify any Power Factor Correction Devices. Please send us an email at firstname.lastname@example.org if you see one that claims to be ENERGY STAR certified.
Power Factor Correction Devices claim to reduce residential energy bills and to prolong the productive life cycles of motors and appliances by reducing the reactive power (kVAR) that is needed from the electric utility.
We have not seen any data that proves these types of products for residential use accomplish what they claim. Power factor correction devices improve power quality but do not generally improve energy efficiency (meaning they won't reduce your energy bill). There are several reasons why their energy efficiency claims could be exaggerated. First, residential customers are not charged for KVA-hour usage, but by kilowatt-hour usage. This means that any savings in energy demand will not directly result in lowering a residential user's utility bill. Second, the only potential for real power savings would occur if the product were only put in the circuit while a reactive load (such as a motor) were running, and taken out of the circuit when the motor is not running. This is impractical, given that there are several motors in a typical home that can come on at any time (refrigerator, air conditioner, HVAC blower, vacuum cleaner, etc.), but the unit itself is intended for permanent, unattended connection near the house breaker panel."
UL Listed & Tested, CSA Approved,
All that means is it has been tested as safe. It won't burn down your house or electrocute you. They don't test whether the unit actually does what it claims.
Darn, I guess this forum doesn't have the 150 post limit. I know other forums on GardenWeb do.
I woke up this morning and drank a cup of tea that I have never tried before. Not long after that, an ambulance pulled up in front of my neighbours house and I found out that he had died of a heart attack at exactly the same time that I finished my cup of tea. I guess I should throw out the rest of those teabags, because I don't want to cause anyone else's death. There is no scientific proof that my drinking the tea caused his death, but according to pa_electric_man, anecdotal evidence trumps science. That's too bad because it was really tasty tea.
"Hey guys, I'm in shock. Not one person has written anything negative about my videos..."
I'd be in shock if anyone here had written anything positive about your videos. Where are the rave reviews? Did I miss something?
Maybe you guys should buy a couple of six-packs and a value carton of Cheetos and register another bogus newbie account so you can post a testimonial endorsing your videos. Oh yeah, and have fun giggling while you're making it up.
Darn, I guess this forum doesn't have the 150 post limit.
That theory has been disproven by actual evidence.
Since we're on the subject of Googling for the truth, I just Googled 'KVAR scam'. Guess what?
The first hit I got was this thread.
Did you really set out to Google-bomb yourselves, Rich and Rob? Heh, the more people who locate this thread and read it, the better, IMO.
(I love the pairing of your names: Rich and Rob. What could better sum up your motivations as you continue to spam this forum?)
Let's see.....I dug out some of my old books.....
For example, a 1kW inductive load will try to do 1kW of work. That is, if the PF decreases, the current will increase in an attempt to maintain the required level of work (Ohms Law).
If you have 1kw of work to be done, the meter will see 1 Kw if the power factor is 1. If the power factor is less than 1, then the meter will see more than 1 kw for 1 kw of work, due to the increase of current (amps).
Power Factor is a unitless ratio of work (real power) / apparent power (volts * amps). For a resistive load the power factor is 1 and work = apparent power. Assuming work is a constant, and the power factor is less than 1, then the volts * amps must be greater than actual work. Since voltage is constant (assuming no voltage drop on feeders) the current increases. A single phase Kwh meter sees the volts * amps.
The meter does not see the power factor of any load. All the meter sees is the increased current of a load with a power factor lower than 1 which means more watts. If you have a motor with a PF of .6 and replace it with a motor with a PF of 1.0 the meter will see less current and thus less power.
Assuming a 5 amp draw on a continuous-run induction motor:
120V * .6PF * 5A = Meter sees 360W
Raise the power factor with a new motor:
120V * 1.0PF * 3A = Meter sees 360W
Assume the motor is the same motor (lousy PF), if you correct the power factor on the LINE side, the LOAD side remains the same, but the LINE side is reduced by 3 amps.
Seems like pretty simple math to me.....but I'm just a lowly electrician that's seeing lower electric bills, not a high-falutin phd!!??!!
As always: "Live Safe Electrically"
Is that an electricians test meter or the POCO meter? Name the book, please, title and publisher.
On one of the cited YouTube videos, the presenter shows a motor running drawing approx 8 amps. Then the claim is made that with the KVAR device switched on, the POCO supplies approx 5 amps and the KVAR supplies approx 3 amps. It is obvious that a real power saving would be to get a 3 amp motor and power it from the KVAR alone. Tell the POCO to take long walk off a short pier.
In the post above "-- but the LINE side is reduced by 3 amps." This math may be simple, but it cannot be correct from the claimed meter readings above.
I met the inventor at the World Energy Engineering Congress in Washington DC this month. I am not an electrician or an engineer. The inventor shared with me the actual patent and supporting documentation. Also he shared with me the NEC 2008 where is shows a similar device.
Anyone have any un-insulting comments regarding a similar device shown in the NEC book?
3 months ago, I seen an advertisement for this product on budbook.org
Being that i use 11 - 1000 hps ballasts, 2 - 24k btu air conditioners, 3 dehumidifiers and multiple fans i thought that i could use this product!
I Purchased the kvar unit and my electricity bill WENT DOWN! I averaged $1400 a month EVERY MONTH for the last 3 years! After purchasing this Kvar device, my electric bill for the for the last 2 months ended up being $1087 and $1062 respectively!
I WOULD RECOMMEND THIS PRODUCT TO ALL INDOOR GROWERS! Not only has it saved me money, but it actually lowered the amperage reading on ALL of my equipment. Before the kvar installation, my 1000 watt 220 volt HPS ballast was drawing 5.4 amps. AFTER the installation of the kvar unit, the same ballast drew 2.8 amps! THAT IS HUGE! Now i am not scared of my breakers popping or of the electrical system overheating and causing fire!
Not ony has the kvar unit paid for itself in its first month of use..... But, Just having the piece of mind knowing that the overall amperage load is reduced which means my breakers wont overload and either pop or cause a fire..... IS PRICELESS...
Is this product be good for the average home owner PROBABLY NOT..... IS this product good for the average indoor grower? DEFINITELY!
I work in the Brandeis University High Energy Physics Lab. We did a study of the KVAR Energy Controller. Here are our results:
Here is a link that might be useful: KVAR Energy Controller Study
I live in MN. I had a unit installed on my AC condenser unit about 3 years ago. The unit is wired so it is only on when the AC runs. I had an Energy Switch unit that the Electric company installed to cycle on/off the AC to save energy during peak times. (For their ability to cycle my AC they gave me a 15% total energy bill savings per summer mounth.) After I had the KVAR unit installed, I had the Electric company remove their equipment and my monthly bills were consistently lower than the bill with the 15% discount. Based on that, I must say the unit works well and my AC stays on when I want it on! A happy customer.
OK, I've read the entire thread, and I cannot speak for the actual devices being discussed, but for the non-mathematical out there, let me try to explain...
We are considering AC-Alternating Current- in which the voltage is constantly varying from a positive peak value to a negative peak value, and back again, in a smooth curve called a Sine wave. If the load is resistive, like a water heater or even a standard light bulb, the peak voltage and peak current occur at the same instant, so the (peak) power is the product of these two. VA=Watts, PF=1
In an inductive load, the peak current occurs later than the voltage peak, so the current is lower when the voltage is max, and the voltage is lower when the current is max. Since voltmeters and ammeters do not know about each other, they will both read a value (the RMS value, which is similar to an "average) related to the peak of each parameter, but the actual product or real power at any given instant is less than the product of the two peak values since they do not peak at the same time.
For a capacitive load, the current peak occurs before the voltage peak, but the result is the same, since the peak voltage and peak current do not occur at the same instant.
The product of the two independent meter readings is Volts * Amps, or volt-amps. The actual product of all the instantaneous values is Watts. The power factor is the ratio of these two, and can never be greater than 1.
I hope this is useful in helping understanding of AC power.
This is a test of posting to a locked thread and just having an email address instead of a username as "Posted by".
A final test of posting to a locked thread, with just an email address, using a different username.