to stop it???

mom2emallOctober 4, 2010

We are having a big issue with ss lying lately. He lies about everything! Last week he wanted to have a friend over afterschool. I asked him if he had homework. He said no. (If he had homework he would have to do it before his friend could come over). So we let him call and invite his friend over. They played. Later that night I was asking sd if she was finished with her homework and ss said "I still have to do my homework!". DH and I both looked at him and reminded him he said he had no homework. He began lying saying he never said that.

The other day he knocked something over...I saw him do it. He even looked at the item when it hit the floor. When he didn't stop to pick it up I called him back to the room. I asked him if he knocked the item over. He denied it. I told him I saw him and he kept lying saying he did not do it!

Today he lied about something else! We are at our witts end with this. We have tried punishing him for lying. We have tried telling him that the truth will keep him out of trouble. We have tried just talking to him. Nothing seems to be working! HELP!!

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My mom used soap. That's right!!! She warned me and warned me but I still kept lying (about really stupid things) so the first time (I was obviously a very slow learner!!) she rubbed bar soap on my teeth (front and back). Chunks of soap stuck in my teeth and I was not allowed to eat or drink anything to help remove it for 1/2 an hour. YUCK! The second time she actually gave me the option - bar soap or liquid dish soap. Since I already knew bar soaped sucked - I choose the liquid dish soap. WRONG CHOICE! It permeated every crevice in my mouth and there was no possible escape. I tasted it for days and days. I never lied again to her (well, at least I made absolutely positively sure that she would never bust me for it!!!!).

Barbaric? Yes. Effective?? Absolutely!

    Bookmark   October 4, 2010 at 11:09PM
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I was given a choice, soap or belt spanking. For me, all it took was the mere mention of those consequences & I chose to just not lie... I have never been able to lie well anyway so I knew I'd get caught. IF I got away with the lie, my own guilt was tormenting anyway... paranoid that they were going to find out, can they see it on my face?, it was horrible.

We have had an ongoing problem with SD lying about EVERYTHING for a few years now. We have decided that natural consequences are all we can do.

"did you do your homework?" "I didn't have any" "sure, you can play/watch TV." Bedtime: "I need to finish my homework" "sorry, you said you didn't have any... I guess you will get a zero or work on it in the morning on the bus" And remember, if you don't pass your classes, you'll repeat this grade next year. If you're grades aren't passing, you can't go to ___________.

SD has told us her work was already turned in, she didn't have any work, it's already done (she hardly uses that one unless she thinks we don't have time to check) and she has decided to just not write down her homework assignments in her journal so we don't know she has homework (last week, she actually wrote NONE on all subjects because it was Friday & she was with us that weekend... she didn't want to spend any part of her weekend doing homework.)

"I'm not hungry anymore" (when she eats everything but her veggies) "ok, we won't have dessert tonight since you are full"

and if you see him do it, don't ask "did you _____", ask him "why didn't you pick up the lamp when you knocked it over?" or simply "get back in here & pick up that lamp you just knocked over" When you ask them if they did something that you KNOW they did, it only opens up the opportunity to lie about it & get caught. If they think you aren't sure they did it, of course they may lie to get out of trouble. But if you acknowledge that you already know the truth, then if they want to stand by their story, they have to basically call you a liar at the same time... & I have no problem asking "do you think I just made that up?" "why would I lie about it if I just saw you do it?" & of course, I tell her "I'm going to check with your teachers via email & online" and it's the fear of getting caught that usually makes her fess up. She KNOWS when I say I am going to email her teacher, I DO.

    Bookmark   October 5, 2010 at 1:03AM
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SS had his lying bout over the summer; the punishment that worked for him ended up being copying out appropriate stories from his children's bible. He hates it, but it is not very time-consuming if he chooses to just do it and get it over with (it's just boring). The last time he told a serious lie was on a really hot day; I'd started work early because we were going to go to the pool after work. Instead of copying his story he dawdled and sat and stared into space; I was unhappy because it was in the 90's and I was stuck at home with him - until my epiphany. We went to the pool. I went swimming and SS sat on the beach towel finishing up his story before he was allowed in. It took him 4 1/2 hours to write the first half of the story, 45 minutes for the second half!

During that time we just checked up on everything that SS said; if he said he'd brushed his teeth, we checked the toothbrush. If he said he'd put his bike away, we checked. And we never told him how we knew he was lying, just that we knew. It didn't take too many times for him to stop denying he'd lied because if he did, another punishment was added (once for the original lie and once for the follow-up).

    Bookmark   October 5, 2010 at 9:05AM
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I think children lie for a reason, it is their defense mechanism, their attempt to gain control, their way of avoiding punishment, avoiding getting their parents upset, avoiding lectures (LOL) or whatever else. whatever that is, I would try to find out what it is.

I think shoving soap in chidlren's mouth is abusive, it is also detrimental to their health, it is not designed to be in anyone's mouth.

    Bookmark   October 5, 2010 at 8:43PM
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"I think shoving soap in chidlren's mouth is abusive, it is also detrimental to their health, it is not designed to be in anyone's mouth."

Well, in my mother's defense, this was WAY before anti-bacterial everything so it was just gross, not necessarily detrimental to my health. And my mother was far from abusive - sometimes she just needed to do something off-the-wall to get my attention (I could be slightly stubborn and thought that everything I said should be the way it was!!). Like I said, I was a bit of a slow learner, however, the second time around it sure got my attention! No harm done - just an amusing story to laugh about at family dinners - at my own expense for not learning the first time!

    Bookmark   October 5, 2010 at 9:37PM
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I do think that ss lies to stay out of trouble, though he is rarely in trouble! We are trying to convey to him that lying gets you in more trouble than admitting you did something wrong. What really bothers me is that he is lying about stupid things and he is really convincing about it!

Last night we ended up sending him to bed after dinner for his lying. WE told him that because he was honest with us after a while he got to stay up long enough to eat dinner with us......if he would have not admitted the truth he would have gone to bed before dinner and then had to come eat dinner alone after we were done and then go back to bed. He cried of course, but we are hoping it did some good.

    Bookmark   October 5, 2010 at 11:58PM
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DD lied to me about her report card in her last semester of high school (she told me she lost it and told me her grades, which weren't true), I found that report card hidden in some drawers around Christmas time, more than 6 months later. I asked why she hid it, she was already accepted to University, why lie? She said she didn't want me to be upset. Now it makes no difference anymore, but I was pretty shocked finding that report card. And she was usually honest. I guess everybody has to lie once in awhile. LOL

    Bookmark   October 6, 2010 at 8:15PM
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So why dont you just beat the crap out of the kid?

    Bookmark   October 6, 2010 at 10:39PM
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You are asking me or mom2emall, kkny? If me (my post was the last one) then I take it as a joke, I never beat anybody (used to beat my brother up though when we were kids, he claims he beat me up haha), DD was 19 by the time I found her report LOL and she was taller and bigger than me since she was 13. haha I wouldn't attempt to. Oh my. Too funny.

    Bookmark   October 7, 2010 at 6:19AM
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I also think mouth soaping falls under the realm of abuse. JMO. I understand things were different *back in the day* but it's just not sometihng I would ever feel comfortable doing.

In regards to lying, I think natural consequences are most effective, if possible. A big thing I try to teach my DD is that if she lies---or omits, which can be the same thing---then I lose trust in her. And with that loss of trust can come a loss of privileges.

As kids get older, this gets easier to enforce. You lie about something? Well, I cannot trust you anymore, you will have to EARN that trust back---and until you do, no car keys for you. Or an earlier curfew. Or whatever.

I'm not a spanking advocate by any means, but I am also not gung-ho anti spanking. I think generally there are better alternatives, but I don't think the occasional spanking is the kiss of death.

I remember reading something about Bill Cosby--who I love---and he talked about how one of his kids lied to him about something at the age of six or seven.

Bill Cosby gave him a couple swats on the backside, and then talked to his child about the lie, and how it was not acceptable, etc.

Then he said to him, "I'm not going to spank you, anymore."

And told the child he could go. As the child turned to walk away, Bill Cosby spanked him once more.

The child expressed upset and his dad said, "Now you know how it feels to be lied to."

Again--I am NOT advocating spanking one way or the other, but I thought it was an interesting approach.

    Bookmark   October 7, 2010 at 10:14AM
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I don't know what's "back in the day", I am in mid 40s, my parents are in 60s and 70s, no, no soap, and no physical punishment. My garndparents passed away but I have a feeling that my greatgrandparents didn't shove soap anywhere. It is not generational, but cultural, whatever norms are appropriate in that particular society. I'll be honest with you up until recently i have never heard of soap punishment.

yeap natural consequences, agreed. Funny about Cosby.

    Bookmark   October 7, 2010 at 5:49PM
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Parent, "back in the day' is just an expression.

I never had any mouth soaping or anything of the sort---but I did get spanked, never by my dad, but by my mom. It was never a controlled thing, though, always done when she was in a fit of anger, more of a reflex---NOT how I think spanking, if it's going to be used, should ever be done.

My mom grew up in the 50s and she had her mouth washed out with soap, her mom spanked her bare behind with a ruler, among other things. I think you're right--it is a cultural, but also generational thing.

My mom's parents were midwest Lutherans. :)

    Bookmark   October 7, 2010 at 5:55PM
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I know lovehadley, what I was trying to say that "back in the day" it was not happening either (not for everyone). It is primarilly cultural/societal IMO.

    Bookmark   October 7, 2010 at 6:00PM
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It was done in the first half of the 20th century primarily by UK, US and Australia.

I gave my DD hot sauce, a few drops mixed in with water a few times. It works.

The problem sometimes is that a person can talk until they are blue in the face, and I do talk... talk... talk. Then I started saying, this is how it is, I'm not going to talk it over anymore, just do what I say. Then I try physical labor... go out and pull weeds or use the maddock. At a few points I will simply say, DD, nothing I try is working. You are continuing X behavior, and I don't know what to do to get through to you... And she has gotten spankings, and hot sauce. I don't like it, but sometimes it's the last straw.

Like I tell DD, every child, every parent, no matter how many children they have; we are all doing this for the first time, with no instruction manual.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 12:31PM
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In the olden days.... parent's disciplined their children. Nowadays, parent's don't want to upset the child. They have less control because children are taught that if anyone does anything to them that they don't like, there is CPS or the Judge to protect them.

Yes, children need protection from ABUSE. However, abuse is a subjective thing. Some think any corporal punishment is abusive. Some think soap or threats are abusive. (The threat of soap was enough for me to do what was asked of me) But I also had respect for my parents... with just enough fear, plus I was a good natured child. Some kids don't need threats, they WANT to please. Some kids will test every ounce of patience you have. All kids are different so telling all children that spanking is off limits, well that has given some kids permission to wreak havoc. Discipline should be done with love & good intentions, not out of anger or frustration. THAT is the difference between abuse & physical discipline, in my opinion. (& yes, there are non physical ways to discipline, but they don't always work with every child. I had three with very different personalities & different methods worked on each of them)

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 1:09PM
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imamommy, in old days and new days good parents taught their children, not punished.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 5:26PM
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silvers, you put hot sauce on your child's tongue and give her good spanking and she is still lying and still being difficult. I think more you do it, more she is going to lie and misbehave and driving your crazy. More punsihment will produce more lies. You need to get to the bottom of it, why being difficult, why lying. she lies to protect herself.

For me hot sauce on child's toungue and good spanking is abusive and primitie form of parenting, you are showing your power over her, nothign else. I actually got very sad reading it, I would not want to be your child. it is just not OK.

You said previously that both DD and SD drive you crazy, could it be you have very low tolerance toward children or something is just wrong. You can't fix anything by such measures, you can scare them and make them obey out of fear. this is just sad.

She'll grow up and remember it, and you'll remember it too. this is not something people forget. It will stay with her. What for?

true, kids are different, some are very very difficult, but measures described above are not going to fix anything. they just make you to release your anger and them obey you for the time being. But in a long run? this is just too sad.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 5:36PM
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Wait, I am confused.

Where did Silver say her DD was difficult and continuing to lie???

Also, nowhere did Silver use the phrase "good spanking." In fact, she said her DD has been spanked but that she Silver) hates to do it.

I think you're projecting a bit, FD. (parent)

I completely agree with Ima that the context in which discipline is done is the line of differentiation between abuse and not abuse. I honestly---when I was growing up---ached to be spanked, but in a controlled, loving manner. As in a "this is what you did, this is why it's not okay, and I am doing this to help you be better" manner.

My mom would yank my pants down and wail away in ANGER, FURY even; sometimes she would dig her nails into my arm and draw blood. But what was worse was that she was EMOTIONALLY abusive.

My father was just distant, never physical, but he was a RAGER. He would scream and holler, and kick walls in, get in your face, his own face beet red, spit flying. It was terrifying.

I wanted to be spanked. I craved love and boundaries like you would not believe.

So---I will say---not all spanking is abusive and not all non-spanking is NON abusive. It's all about intent, love and context.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 8:38PM
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"imamommy, in old days and new days good parents taught their children, not punished."

Well, I guess it must be those cultural/societal differences again, huh? I'd LOVE to know where you grew up, Parent, it sounds positively perfect.

"Good parents" indeed. Absolutely priceless.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 9:02PM
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I think if a child needs that many various punishments like hot sauce and beatings then a child being difficult, I don't believe anyone would inflict that many various punishments including physical one on a child that is not being difficult. how does it make any sense?

I understand that many people use these methods of parenting but in my opinion it is not OK. does everyone have to agree, no, of course not. but I advocate for a child here, i don't really care how adult feels in such cases. It is not important to me.

trust me I've been around, I saw and worked with so many children of various types and kinds that i recognize it from just reading. this girl still wets her pants, struggles at tests, can't pay attention, bites her nails, does some other not age appropriate bodily function things. I recognize a bright but very stressed child living under pressure. no one needs to be that stressed at this age. good spanking is the last thing she needs unless one wants to raise completely neurotic adult. I feel awful for this kid. I would reconsider parenting methods. But of course it is just my opinion.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 10:21PM
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I'm one of the oldest people here, and my parents never hit, and rarely raised a voice. They taught by example. The natural consequence of being less than truthful is that one is not believed and that one hurts friends and family.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 10:43PM
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lonepiper, I never said we are perfect, we just don't punish. DD was a difficult teenager at 15-16. Maybe she deserved good spanking LOL Kidding, no one deserves being physical/emotional pain inflicted on them.
I meant not necessarily culturally different in terms of geographical regions, but rather cultures within the the same geographical region. I am very selective who i associate with, so some of the things mentioned here sound just plain ridiculous, nobody ever put anything in anyone's mouth in my life (not in my circles for sure).

It does not matter where i grew up, like i said it is not geographical, I already said it here I am a Jew from a relatively small/medium size country in Europe, i currently live in the US (but in the US i do not associate with people who spank and do silly stuff like soap in anyone's mouth either). But it is really irrelevant. My SO is Muslim (moderate)from the Asia Minor and he would cut his hand to raise a hand on a child, his parents never did either, and putting junk into kid's mouth? Huh?

are we all perfect? no, but our kids are decent and successful, they grew up just fine without soap and good spankings. DD22 is a very kind young woman.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 10:44PM
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OK lovehadley, it is "spanking" not good spanking, my bad,... like it hurts a child any less.

Lovehadley, physical and emotional abuse is not "love". Children become confused and seek abusive relationships when they grow up because they associate love with physical or emotional pain inflicted on them by their parents. Boundaries and love have nothing to do with pain, emotional or physical.

I don't know how any intelligent human being can say they show their love or teach boundaries by physically hurting a child or doing dumb stuff to them (can't get over putting junk in kids mouth LOL).

I understand that I would not convert anyone here, we are just too different. And I don't care if I offended anyone here, i advocate for children.

Even if they won't change their parenting ways, they will think about it, I know they will. I hope.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 10:54PM
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kkny I just realized that we already had this discussion in the past and again we were the only ones who had different opinion. Hope our mother and DD are doing OK, haven't heard from you for awhile (former finedreams :)) had to change worrying about identity, too similar to my email address)

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 10:59PM
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Yes, thanks mom is much better, DD doing great.

    Bookmark   October 8, 2010 at 11:01PM
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"I don't know how any intelligent human being can say they show their love or teach boundaries by physically hurting a child or doing dumb stuff to them (can't get over putting junk in kids mouth LOL)."

Are you implying that my mother is unintelligent?! Just so you know, it is a HUGE no-no to talk trash about someone else's momma. Didn't anyone within your select circle teach you manners?

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 12:14AM
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lonepiper, I do not happen to know your momma, so I can't possibly be talking about her. True, I don't believe it is intelligent decision to beat kids up professing your love for them. I also do not think it is good manners. LOL Not cool. But like I said I do not happen to know your momma. I don't condone inflicting pain on defenseless children, if it upsets adults, well I can deal with it. But they'll think next time they will raise their hand, it is good enough for me.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 12:51AM
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FD (sorry POO just doesn't work for me, hope you don't mind, I prefer FD) be 'fair', I think you're misundering 'older times/older generation' in some of the places some posters here were raised.

No, I am not a spanker, no my parents were not spankers, but yes I got my first real spanking at age 6 in 1966. Not at home, but at school by the principal. Yep. Two swats on the rear with a paddle for throwing rocks at recess. Public school and guidelines set forth by the State's Board of Education.

I was shocked ( had no idea such a thing was coming) and my mother was livid. I just barely remember overhearing the discussion between my parents that evening. Something along the lines of hearing my father mumble "I'm going over there and kick his butt" and mother reminding him that violence in the way of 'teaching' a lesson is what they (mom and dad) were currently discussing and he was doing no such thing.

Anyway, just repeating what was indeed in this country at one time thought of as an ok thing to do. No I don't think it's an ok thing to do and I think the nonacceptance of it has come a long long way in 40 plus years...but with all that said, I can't judge a 1950-1970 parent for spanking a child, nor saying they were uneducated. Misinformed maybe, but some physical punishment was not the total isolated thing in this country and only occuring in set circles.

Sure, you can say "well was not that way in my home country or in my home" , but for many at one time in this country it was not thought of as child abuse. Yeah, it actually might should have been and a school would likely get the hell sued outta them for such a thing now...but I'm just trying to point out that some ideas on punishment in this country was different than what is acceptable as proper forms of discipline now.

Oh, and you will be happy to know my parents did not ever put items in my mouth nor turn me over their knees, but I can realize that other parents 'of that time' might have and then therefore realize that their children's children get the idea.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 9:30AM
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"Boundaries and love have nothing to do with pain, emotional or physical."

Parent, that is exactly the point I was trying to make.

You are equating physical discipline with abuse and I am saying that emotional abuse can be JUST as damamging, if not more so, than physical abuse. Abuse does not have to be physical in nature to be abuse.

I was emotionally abused growing up: my mother is (I think) a narcissist; she is an alcoholic and I think she has a form of attachment disorder. My father is a rage-a-holic. HAHA, I use that term sort of jokingly, but it is also quite true. He was (is) a screamer, throwing things, kicking walls, yelling, just being terrifying.

I have a mental illness that formed because of the environment in whihc I was raised, and I now know it set me up to seek out and accept a lot of things in my own life. I'm trying to unwind and unravel the damage that was done.

I was not spanked often at all---and, like I said, the handful of times I WAS, it was my mom pissed off and angry, not in a controlled manner.

I am not a *spanking advocate* but, like I said, I think gentle, firm, but loving spankings can happen and NOT be damaging. It is all in intent.

My aunt and uncle are gentle, loving Christians who spanked all five of their children. By spanking, I mean a few swats on a clothed bottom. THey did it out of love, and because they felt it was what the Bible says to do.

Their kids--my cousins--are some of the most well adjusted, confident, loving I now know, ranging in ages 31 all the way down to 11.

I respect your views but when you start using the words spanking and beating interchangeably, that's a problem.

Trust me---if someone had taken the time to care about me, and love me, as long as it had been done consistently, I would not have minded in the least.

I'm in intense therapy now, trying to heal my emotional bruises, and even my doctor says that consistency is better than inconsistency. He said it's better for parents to be *consistently dogmatic* than it is to be inconsistent and all over the map.

The WORST kind of parenting is parenting that's unpredicatable.

EEveryone has to make decisions about what is best for THEIR families and even each individual child. Choosing spanking is NOT an automatic qulaification for abuse. I understand you might not agree with it, but that doesn't mean it is inherently wrong, either.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 10:03AM
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I wanted to add---my doctor was saying it's NOT good for parents to be completely dogmatic, BUT that if it's going to be that way, it's better to be consistent than inconsistent.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 10:07AM
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I understand that my views might differ from others, and I am not trying (and am not capable) of converting anyone but I stick to my convictions. You stick to yours.

Love, I never said emotional abuse is better than physical, neither one is acceptable.

justmetoo, it is nothing to do with home country. I live in the US and am very familiar with people of different geographical regions and cultures. People I associate with do not spank or put gross stuff in kids mouth neither in the US nor anywhere else. Like I said it is not geographical at all. There are people in a Europe as well as the US as well as in Africa or in Asia who beat the crap out of their kids, such people exist everywhere in the world. And there are people who don't. Nothing to do with homecountry at all. I only said where I am from because someone asked, it makes no difference in the context at all. Culture is not geographical in this context.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 10:42AM
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justmetoo, I am not concerned about what happened in 1950s that much (can't fix the past). people were saying they spank and put unpleasant things in the mouth of their kids now in 2010. I find it shocking and am convinced that most problems they children are having are because of that and it is going to get worse over time. If my opinion upsets some adults, that's fine with me.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 10:46AM
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LH reminded me of our next door neighbor kids when I was a kid. Yes, my parents spanked me. No, it wasn't often at all. I was usually given a choice, be grounded or take a spanking, which consisted of me having to lay across the knee of my parent while I got four or five 'spanks' that stung... I was always aware of the reason & never felt like I hadn't done something wrong.. I knew I had done the wrong thing & I often took the spanking because I hated being grounded. I remember one time picking 'grounding' & having to go to my room. It was an awful feeling, banished to my room ~ laying there listening to the rest of the family chat, laugh & watch TV without me. I felt like nobody cared about my agony of being left out.. how can they go on laughing as if there isn't a problem here... for me, THAT was worse than a few swats & getting to join in on the family nights.

But, back to my neighbor's children. Their parents were strict school teachers & they didn't believe in spanking a child. They also didn't allow their children to be unhappy. If, for any reason, their kids would cry... they got in trouble. They had to put powder on their eyes to get rid of any puffiness or redness & stay in their room until they could come out & smile, laugh & be happy. I can only imagine what kind of emotional problems they must have today... or problems showing emotions. There were ALL sorts of parents when I was a kid... I'm not saying they all spanked, but it was acceptable to spank then & as justmetoo pointed out, even schools were allowed to inflict corporal punishment. My Principal had a paddle hanging on his wall. I remember dad telling the Principal in front of me that if I get out of line, he has full permission to use it on me. Whether that would ever have happened, I don't know. My parents went ballistic when my brother's teacher hit him with an eraser... but just knowing that my parents & the school were united & were not going to let me misbehave was enough to keep me in line.

As for today, I don't advocate spanking at all. But, I also think there is less authority in schools & homes because kids have been given more rights (maybe they deserve more rights) but then we have more vandalism, more problem children than decades ago.. gang violence, drugs, kids having sex at school, girls dressing trashy, guys wearing pants that barely stay up, etc. There are so many more problems today than decades ago & I can't help but believe there is a correlation. Of course, divorce & people choosing to be single parents has also impacted family values, it has become more acceptable to admit homosexuality at younger ages, it has become more acceptable to dress little children like slutty teen idols, the lyrics in popular songs, still shocks me... and movies have to have a range of ratings.. and even newer G rated Disney movies have questionable innuendo in them. Society in general has deteriorated in many ways.

There are bigger problems in the world than thinking a few swats on the butt when a kid has done something wrong are going to cause a lifetime of problems for the child... or to say it's abusive. Sure, there may be other ways to deal with discipline.. but we learn how to be parents from our own parents & if you weren't as lucky as FD/PO1 to have a family that was so level headed that they knew spankings would scar a child for life so they had alternative methods of discipline, too bad for you then. If I had to live my life over again, I would still take a spanking over a time out. I do not feel I was ever abused or unloved by my parents when I was a small child. My mother did spank me inappropriately as a teenager, out of anger/frustration & when she had been drinking. THAT is clearly different than the 'spankings' I received before I was 9-10 to correct my behavior.

FD/PO1 ~ I'm very happy for you that you were raised in a home where you were not spanked & you learned how to raise your child without spanking. Maybe you can write a book on how to parent without spanking for those that weren't taught that spanking is wrong.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 10:58AM
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" but I can realize that other parents 'of that time' might have and then therefore realize that their children's children get the idea. "

I understand justmetoo, that's what i meant by it being cultural (not in geographical sense), culture is passed from generation to generation.

Their children's children use the same parenting methods that were used by older generations because it is cultural.

I understand WHY they do it, but don't find it acceptable as a parenting method. In fact I find putting gross stuff in kids mouth as punishment is even more abusive than spanking, it is humiliating and just kind of bizarre in my opinion. I wouldn't even do it to my cat let alone a kid. "open your mouth I will put something in there". I did ask my SO over the phone this morning if he heard of it(he is on a business trip) and he said I am making it up, nobody does that. LOL He is of a completely different culture than me (same parenting style though)but his DDs were born and raised in the MidWest and his ex is American. So it is nothing to do with geography.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 10:59AM
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I am not a writer imamommy, I won't write a book. We didn't do time outs either by the way.

I don't think there is a correlation at all imamommy. My DD didn't do drugs or was involved in gangs or had sex in school or looked trashy (although i think she wears skirts that are a bit too short LOL). I don't think we have more drugs or violence than generations ago. when I was growing up, there were people who did drugs or were in gangs or girls were trashy or had sex underage, and it happened when my parents grew up, and it is happening now. It is more in the media now. But it is no less or more than before. I don't see any correlation at all. By this logic parents who don't spank would consistently produce troubled children, this is just not the case. I think there are other parenting methods to avoid kids joining gangs for example. Sagging pants is clothing style among certain groups of teenagers. My nephew does not wear sagging pants and never did and he is 20. But frankly if he did, I don't see it a s a big issue. I don't see how DD would join a gang, what for.

"it has become more acceptable to dress little children like slutty teen idols" acceptable where and by whom? these are not very deep thinking people, and they always existed no more or less.

"it has become more acceptable to admit homosexuality at younger ages" yes because society finally is becoming a bit more tolerant.

i don't see how this is a negative thing. of course here is still a long way to go, but at least some steps are made.

You don't think it should be acceptable to admit who you are? You admitted you were heterosexual at young age why should it be different for homosexual? Publicly describing sex acts would unacceptable for homosexuals or heterosexuals alike.

You don't think that homosexuals feel more safe to come out at earlier age because "Society in general has deteriorated in many ways.", do you? Or because society is less hostile to minorities? Somewhat at least

i don't see how society deteriorated, same type of people who dropped out of schools, had underage sex, did drugs, slept around, joined gangs, were violent, wear trashy clothes 50 years ago do it now in 2010. We hear more about it, but those are still same type of people.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 11:42AM
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--"I wouldn't even do it to my cat let alone a kid. "open your mouth I will put something in there".--

This is really quit an image,LOL.

I would not have a face left if I attempted to put hot sauce or such in Kitty's mouth. She is an lovable, gentle cat, but when taken by surprise ...well, there is a reason she has the nick name of "Eddie" aka for Edward Scissor Hands.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 11:54AM
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After thinking some more I am convinced that our society improved rather than deteriorated. I'd rather live and raise kids now than in the past. We do have a less rigid, less dogmatic, less discriminating, less sexist, less intolerant, less hostile society now than even 20 years ago. Still long way to go.

Saying that even if there some groups in our society that are deteriorating, it is parental responsibility to raise children appropriately and in appropriate environment and according to priorities.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 12:10PM
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Yes, FD, my daughter and my stepdaughter drive me CRAZY. So does my husband, traffic, my parents and those little sticky things on DVD's. LMAO.

Thank you Love, for making sure PO1 didn't shove even more words in my mouth. I have only "hot sauced" my dd 2-3 times. It's a drop or two of hot sauce (like tabasco) in a small glass of water. It's barely a burn, but it's a reminder. DON'T ____________. My parents emotionally and verbally abused me. I do not lecture, or scream or throw tantrums of my own. I am doing my best, and I tell DD that often. We are the products of our environment, and I do my best to make sure DD has a healthy environment. I do not beat my child. I have given her spankings, yes. I do not think it is abuse, but has the potential for abuse, always.

Being self-righteous could work... I suppose... but I prefer to be honest. I'm doing my best. I'm working with what I have. And I'm not going to pretend I'm a perfect parent because I'm absolutely not.

But my DD is always invited back to people's homes. She is invited to homes where there are no children because adults enjoy spending time with her. She is kind to animals, she is a good student, she is praised for telling the truth and she rarely lies or gets in to trouble. She is independent and from the age of 5 flying alone the stewardesses would go out of their way to tell me how well behaved she is. My daughter is an absolute joy, and my SD is being raised pretty well too.

And, kids drive me crazy.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 12:13PM
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LOL My SO made some wings recently(who knows why, we normally don't make that type of food, we are both trying to eat very healthy, he lost his mind) and he put so much hot sauce on it that it burned my eyes. I love spicy foods but hate Hot sauce. It would be a good punishment for me. lol

Our cat is very sweet but she is rather dumb so if you give her hot sauce or soap she'll eat that LOL . Right now she lies on top of papers that I am grading and pushes me with her paws and stares at the laptop screen "are you talking about me???" LOL Seriously she looks like she is reading. haha I wish I could take a picture of her now.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 12:18PM
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Nobody is perfect silvers, I am not either, never said I was.

I consider described methods as somewhat bizarre but you are free to do what you please. You don't have to agree at all. I understand my level of tolerance and patience is relatively high, otherwise I would choose a different profession or ended up in psychiatric ward long time ago. LOL Minor things don't get me bent out of shape because everything is relative.

I just think that some things you cannot undo, like you cannot "unspank" her or "undo" hot sauce in her mouth (mixed with water? eeww, it sounds like I would throw up if you give me this concoction). I understand it might not be a big deal but I just wish you don't do that. Well, I can wish.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 12:33PM
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silvers your DD sounds like a very sweet child, and I have no doubts about that, that's why I see even less reasons to employ harsh parenting techniques with her. She is my niece's age and my niece is so sweet too, what a great age. If i knew my brother or his wife raised their hands on her or gave her something in her mouth (they would never ever do, my brother doesn't even raises his voice), I would be heartbroken. I am picking her tomorrow for a day to have some fun. I love kids, can't help that.

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 12:43PM
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See, I don't see it as harsh parenting techniques. My dd is very strong willed.

Example of one occasion she was spanked. We were in a busy parking lot. I had been telling her to stand next to me. From the time she was tiny tiny I'd say, "touch the door" and she would stand next to the car, touching the car, and I'd know she was safe. This time she walked right out the door and around the back of the car even though I asked her to stay in. I shouted (to get her attention) and she gave me lip. I explained, busy parking lot, etc. I turned my back for a second, and she was GONE. She had walked around the back of the car again and was on the other side, where I couldn't see her. When I got to her, I swatted her backside, and we did not do the activity we had planned. Instead we drove home and talked about what had happened. I think it was perfectly effective. She has not done it since.

That's great that your brother does not raise his voice or his hand. He must have really good parenting skills. Either that, or he has a COMPLETELY different A) child and B) history and C) life than I do.

My child is extremely hard headed and strong willed. I do not want to break her of those, I think they are good traits. But that does not mean she can bulldoze me. She was such a good baby, good child, never had to put locks on anything, could take her anywhere and she wouldn't destroy other's property, never childproofed, etc. I didn't spank her until she was 6 years old. And that was because NOTHING else was working. I tried time outs. I tried taking things away. I tried the corner, physical labor, etc. I tried talking.... talking... talking. I rarely yell. And if I do, it's something like "aaaahhhh I'm so frustrated!" rather than something directed at my kid.

You're right, I cannot unspank my kid. I also cannot put her parent's marriage back together again. There are a bazillion things I wish I had done different, or I wish I had known back then what I know know. That's the beauty of getting older. The guilt compounds the older I get.

I stand by my spanking her and hot saucing her though. They were appropriate, and not done in anger, and I explained to her it was because the other methods (listed here) did not work, and it was not ok for her to continue her behavior. Period. My parents did not spank me often, but every time I did get spanked I fully deserved it.

And it's just a sip of hot sauce water, not a whole glass that has to be drunk. Just enough to get a bit of hot on the lips as a reminder. Kinda like soap...

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 6:22PM
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"That's great that your brother does not raise his voice or his hand. He must have really good parenting skills. Either that, or he has a COMPLETELY different A) child and B) history and C) life than I do."

I wouldn't say he has great parenting skills, he wouldn't say that either, he struggles raising kids and has a a pretty stressful life, he has two kids 21 and 9, intact family.

He is a very classy guy, I cannot imagine him doing any of the stuff. He just has a lot of class.

But he sure can get physical just not with the child or a woman or anyone who is weaker. He lost his cool once and physically attacked a guy who made awful anti-semitic comment -at work believe me or not (he didn't know my brother is a Jew, he just looks Italian), the guy said too bad they killed only 6mil at WWII, should get rid of all of them, they took over everything. My brother jumped on a guy. He managed to hit him but not too bad because 5 people had to hold my brother, and he isn't even that big. Anyways, he is not a sissy, just not the type. He is also very protective of women. I start seeing same traits in my nephew, hope he takes after his dad.

saying all that my brother can be a pain in a read end, like any man. LOL

    Bookmark   October 9, 2010 at 10:31PM
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"After thinking some more I am convinced that our society improved rather than deteriorated. I'd rather live and raise kids now than in the past."

Really? How has it improved? I'll admit, there is less racism (though it seems race has been brought up more since the last Presidential election), it IS more acceptable for people to come out as homosexuals, but it has also become more acceptable to be a single parent... without marriage. It has become more acceptable to divorce for no reason at all... people wake up one day & decide they aren't "happy" so they break up a family. It has become more acceptable to have a teenage pregnancy. Children are dealing with lock downs because of school shootings, gang violence in schools, drugs are easy to obtain, & try to find regular ol' jeans (for a preteen) with the whole zipper anymore... I dare you! I can't find 'em anywhere. Osh Kosh discontinued their line of girls size 14-16 for lack of sales. So yes, girls want to dress trashy & be like Brittany Spears, Katy Perry, or the flavor of the month. It may not be in YOUR family, but what happens in your family is not necessarily indicative of society as a whole. It's great that today we have the technology we have. I get to talk to my son while he's at war.. he gets to see his son grow through pictures & videos taken almost daily. But, I am making the baby a Batman comforter & googled "batman fabric" & ended up with pornographic images on my screen. What if my stepdaughter was helping me search & that pops up. Later, I was told there is a control to filter out porn, but I didn't know that & stuff like that is being exposed to children everyday... they are exposed to so much more than we were. (when I was a kid, boys had to swipe a playboy magazine to see naked ladies... now you need only have a computer) I find that to be a deterioration of the family & society. I don't see it as an improvement... I see there have been significant improvements in some things, but as a whole... they don't call them the good ol' days for nothing. Life used to be so much simpler... and kids didn't have to be medicated. If you don't see a correlation between the advances (good & bad) and the results, maybe it's time to take off the rose colored glasses. I'm not saying everyone is plagued by these problems, but they do exist outside of YOUR world. To say "well, I never had that happen in MY family so it's not really a problem" is fairly ignorant.

"We do have a less rigid, less dogmatic, less discriminating, less sexist, less intolerant, less hostile society now than even 20 years ago. Still long way to go."

Really? You think we live in a less hostile society? Today, terrorism is a household word. Have you compared the rate of homicide? Rape? Violent crimes? How many shows are now on TV, promoting hostility. Lots of court shows now, lots of forensic crime shows, lots of bride/wedding shows. Bridezillas is one of them. I work in the wedding industry & find brides coming in to order things... they are sometimes rude, hostile, demanding. Shouldn't a bride be planning her marriage, not just the wedding day? They can be the rudest, meanest customers. But, besides brides... what about school shootings? I'd say there are more hostile kids today than in the 1950's.

Sure, there were all the same problems back then, but it was not acceptable to be a slut... today it has become acceptable. Back then, if a girl got "in trouble" or "was in the family way" she got married or went away to have the baby. Sure, it is an improvement that today girls no longer have the stigma of being "one of THOSE girls"? Sure, but at what price? The stigma removed from girls having sex at young ages but now some teen girls plan to have babies.. then can't take care of them. Of course they can always go on welfare. That makes it societies problem.

"Saying that even if there some groups in our society that are deteriorating, it is parental responsibility to raise children appropriately and in appropriate environment and according to priorities."

And if you took a poll, you would find most parents think they are being responsible, they believe they are raising their children appropriately and in an appropriate environment.... and who is to say what is or isn't appropriate? What is unacceptable to YOU may be completely acceptable to someone else. I would find it completely unacceptable to snub someone because I find them so boring... and I would never choose to be so rude as to pick staying in, laying on the couch reading a book rather than spend an evening with a 'boring' couple... if that couple wanted to hang out with me, I would most certainly appreciate their kindness & even if they were boring, I would share my time with them. But, not everyone will always agree on what is ACCEPTABLE.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2010 at 1:29AM
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Your post about the hot sauce reminded me of when my daughter was about 8. She had a little crush on the guy that worked at Taco Bell. So, one day we are in drive thru & she asks him for a hot sauce. He hands her fire sauce, the tears it open & squeezes the whole packet into her mouth. She smiled & as we drove away, begged for a drink. That was her method of trying to impress him...

BTW, when my sister was 4 or 5, she cried & cried for chile. My mom is Mexican & eats hot chiles, sauce or salsa at many of her meals. Since my sister wouldn't stop crying, mom gave her a spoon of it.... she cried even louder & never asked for it again. haha

When I was a kid, I liked hot sauce but as I've gotten older, I now have medium or mild. I guess it would have been a reward to put hot sauce in my mouth when I was a kid.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2010 at 1:44AM
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Ima, I love hot sauce, and that's a funny story!

PO1, I don't get it... maybe I'm slow "He is a very classy guy, I cannot imagine him doing any of the stuff. He just has a lot of class.

But he sure can get physical just not with the child or a woman or anyone who is weaker. He lost his cool once and physically attacked a guy..."

That is the opposite of class, IMO. There is nothing "classy" about attacking anyone, for any reason. I'm sure you don't know how condescending your tone is coming across, but you've basically said anyone who yells at their kid is classless.

"raise kids appropriate, in appropriate environment, with priorities"

What does that even mean? My priorities are completely different, my idea of appropriate is completely different, from just about everyone I know. Of course, we all want to raise well-adjusted happy people but on a day to day, minute to minute priority scale to one person having a clean house may be a priority while to another it doesn't matter as long as they're having fun. Have you ever seen Wife Swap? Talk about different priorities!!

All of my friends grew up in households where their parents had different ideas of appropriate behavior and restrictions and yet, somehow, my friends and I all have grown up to be reasonably well adjusted adults. The one common denominator was that ... well. There wasn't one. LOL.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2010 at 2:08AM
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imaommy I agree with you that there are many things that got worse (of course media is nuts, crime and so on)and many things that got better. you know as people get older they always complain how things were better in the past and kids were better behaved. people did it 100 years ago and will do it 100 years from now. I am just putting things in perspective. society is changing it is inevitable.

silvers I just showed you an example that everyone loses their cool and temper, like my brother tried to hit much bigger guy because he made racial remarks. no one is perfect. hearing it probably triggered my brother's memory of the family we lost. Anyways just an example, not like it is his life style hurting others or he thinks it is so cool. If a parent lost their temper well no one is perfect, but when it becomes a parenting style than pardon me you damaging a child and engage ina power struggle.

silvers of course we all have different priorities, thats why we employ different parenting methods and have different family dynamics.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2010 at 3:39AM
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See, PO1, maybe this is a language barrier. I said

""That's great that your brother does not raise his voice or his hand. He must have really good parenting skills. Either that, or he has a COMPLETELY different A) child and B) history and C) life than I do."

And then you said:
"He is a very classy guy, I cannot imagine him doing any of the stuff. He just has a lot of class."

By saying that, you are indicating that he is a classy person, while I am classless. Losing one's "cool" and "temper" and beating someone up is no where near in the same classification as spanking a child. I do not strike my child in anger. Nor do I douse her mouth with hot sauce while I'm in a rage. You are indicating, through your choice of words, that my losing my temper is my "parenting style" and is damaging to my child.

I would have more fear about a man who needs five people to hold him off of another man than of a person who spanks (reasonably) or uses soap (within reason) or hot sauce (again...) as discipline for their children.

    Bookmark   October 10, 2010 at 6:17PM
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