Casements: Andersen 400 vs Sunrise

embedded_timOctober 18, 2011

Hi Window Forum!!

First time post here! My name is Tim and I'm from Rochester, NY.

Well, my wife and I plunked down a fairly large sum of money and bought what we thought was a "move-in-ready" home (built in 1990). After moving in, painting, and decorating, subtle imperfections in the home started to surface. We were fully aware that no home is 'perfect' but we assumed that no major work would need to be done within the next 5 years. Well... we were wrong.

During our Home Inspection, the Inspector noted several broken seals in the windows (Hurd: most likely builder basic). We pressed the seller to fix the windows; the best they could do was call a company that attempted to remove the condensation from the windows and 'recreate' the vacuum. It looked like it worked for a few weeks, but alas, fog reappeared. All in all, we decided to just settle with foggy windows.

A few months after moving in, we started noticing most of the ~30 casement windows weren't closing properly. When cranking the window in, the sash wouldn't align with the window opening. Most of these windows, I've had to drill a screw into the sash so I could lift the windows and pull them into place to close the lock.

We also noticed significant amounts of damaged hardware, rot at the internal hinges, and a clear ooze around the window near the spacer. This brought us to the point of interviewing companies and contractors to put replacement windows in. After talking with ~10 candidates we decided that full tear-outs would be the better option (entertaining vinyl siding the home at the same time).

I've narrowed our window options down to casements; either the Andersen 400 casement or the Sunrise vinyl casement window. I know that the Andersen is a wood vinyl-clad window and the Sunrise is a straight vinyl window but I'm interested in hearing from the pro's: given the choose, which would you recommend your son/daughter/nephew/niece put into their home??

Thanks for any input!!

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mmarse1

Sunrise is a high end window and made with a high grade vinyl.not a garden variety window.unlike vinyl cheap vinyl windows that the building supply stores carry, sunrise will never warp and always look nice. Believe it or not sunrise has much better structural as well as performance numbers than the Andersen. I prefer sunrise.

    Bookmark   October 18, 2011 at 10:13PM
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skydawggy

If you like the look of wood, go with the Andersen or take a look at Marvin.
If you decide you want vinyl, Sunrise makes an excellent casement window. IMO the best vinyl casement window on the market of any manufacturer in terms of overall performance and aesthetics.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2011 at 6:11AM
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embedded_tim

Thanks for the replies!

Any idea on where the Andersen 400 and Sunrise casements fair against each other in terms of price?

Also, given this comparison, which Marvin line would compete against the Andersen 400 or Sunrise?

Thanks!

    Bookmark   October 19, 2011 at 8:21AM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

If you aren't married to wood, the Sunrise casement is better.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2011 at 8:32AM
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skydawggy

Pricing is subjective and varies among different dealers and it can also depend on what's involved in the installation. I would suggest contacting several dealers for the windows you are interested in and getting several quotes. This would also be a good time to ask questions about installation techniques. Sometimes just asking a dealer why you should use him can produce a wealth of information. Never assume that install techniques are all the same, they aren't.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2011 at 8:34AM
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embedded_tim

Wow! Thanks for all the replies!
After looking a little more, it may be difficult to purchase Sunrise windows in my area. Apparently only one installer sells them in our area, and I'm not sure they'd be open to the cash'n-go idea.

In an effort to save money, I'd like to do the installs myself (rabid DIY). I have a contractor friend that has offered to show me the ropes on the first few windows I do. It seems like A400 can easily be purchased at any lumber yard.

What do the pro's recommend in terms of other high quality casement windows (vinyl, wood, or fiber-clad)??

Also, are there any reasons to choose wood beyond aesthetics?

Thanks so much!

    Bookmark   October 19, 2011 at 8:59AM
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mmarse1

you're going to invest all that money in new windows and yet you are having " a contractor friend show you the ropes regarding installation".. i think a smarter thing to do would be to hire a true professional who is an expert in window installations. i have yet to see a "do it yourselfer" install a window correctly. i have also not seen a "jack of all trades" contractor ever install a window correctly. you will be saving yourself alot of time and money by doing it right and leaving it up to a pro.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2011 at 9:42AM
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doug_gb

I installed an Anderson egress window (series 400) - vinyl outside - pine inside. As a amature wood worker, DIY'er, and engineer, I thought the Anderson was well constructed. No problems for the 3 yrs it's been installed, here in Minnesota.

    Bookmark   October 19, 2011 at 1:25PM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

Andersen 400 is a solid window and probably their best line.

    Bookmark   October 21, 2011 at 9:14AM
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embedded_tim

Can Sunrise casements be used in new construction??

    Bookmark   October 23, 2011 at 11:46AM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

Yes.

They should have the option of a clip in nailing fin or it may come standard and be ripped down for retrofit applications.

    Bookmark   October 23, 2011 at 12:40PM
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embedded_tim

Great!

Are there any 'gotchas' when installing wood windows vs vinyl. I know that the expansion/contraction ratio for vinyl is much higher than wood, but does this require any consideration when doing a full-install? Does the space between the rough opening and the window need to be larger for vinyl?

Thanks!

    Bookmark   October 24, 2011 at 5:04PM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

No.

Proper installation is proper installation. The differential amount of expansion between wood and vinyl would not be enough to change the required relief during a normal installation.

    Bookmark   October 25, 2011 at 3:48PM
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embedded_tim

So... I've got a local Sunrise dealer and I've priced out the windows. I didn't realize that Sunrise casements did not come with extension jambs.

When I build out the EJ, should I caulk the wood to the vinyl?

    Bookmark   October 25, 2011 at 4:33PM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

Yes and spray foam larger gaps.

    Bookmark   October 25, 2011 at 6:59PM
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DIY505

I had a recent experience with Sunrise windows that I want others to know about. The only way I heard about Sunrise was through sites like this with all the praise of Sunrise. I had a very negative experience with them. I sent a message through the contact us part of their website that I wanted an estimate on 12 replacement windows and gave them the dimensions. They pass my info along to the local dealer who wants to come out and talk. They end up sending a guy who claims to be a Sunrise ManufactureâÂÂs Rep (not a sales guy) and says he reports directly to the Sunrise President.

From the get go I tell him I do not like to make quick decisions on large purchases and that Marvin Fiberglass windows were way out of my price range. He starts referring to me as âÂÂMr. Thriftyâ at this point. He continues to spend 1.5 hours at my house going over the Verde window. It takes him well over 30 minutes to put a price together. When he does, it is written on a sheet of notebook paper and is for $12k. He pulls out an official looking form and says he will take off $2k today only if I put 50% down today. This is very close to the price Marvin quoted me (Marvin was $14k). I said this was too expensive so he said the next level down they offer is the Essentials line. Exact same window frame as the Verde, but the glass inside the window was not as energy efficient and did not come with as many color options. The today only price for it was $6700.

I tell him that I am not making a decision today, but who should I call if I want to proceed. He said âÂÂDo not bother calling anyoneâÂÂ. He tells me that I was not going to go with their window, got in his car and left.

I have several issues with this âÂÂManufactureâÂÂs RepâÂÂ:
- The form he wanted me to sign for the 1 day only discount said I needed to put their sign in my front yard, twice a year for 30 days at a time. I said we were in a neighborhood with guidelines and I did not know if that was allowed. He lied and said he already checked and it was allowed.
- He bad mouthed Marvin windows every chance he got.
- He used high pressure sales tactics to try to get me to buy that day and then left in a huff with no price quote when I would not play ball.
- He tried to say the Essential line was the same frame as the Verde with different glass. I read on Replacement Window Sites that is not the case.

The guy wasted 2 hrs of my Saturday, left without giving an official estimate, lied to me, and was rude to me. I do not do business with people like that and want others to know SunriseâÂÂs business practices to save them the trouble I went through. I would have never contacted them if I knew this is what they would do. I read Champion Windows does this type of thing as is why I will not consider Champion Windows.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2013 at 9:15AM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

I don't think Sunrise had "manufacturer's reps" that sell their product direct.

I suspect this was a salesperson for a company that is a Sunrise dealer.

Sorry about the cheesy and greasy sales approach and presentation. That is now how customers should be treated.

I would call Sunrise and let them know who you met with and about your experience. They are a top notch company and will want to know about your experience and how someone represented their product.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2013 at 10:49AM
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DIY505

Windsonwashington,
I took your advise. You are correct, Sunrise apologized and stated that it was in fact a dealer employee mis-representing themselves. It is very unfortunate because I like the product. Guess I need to look for other options. Do you know any sites that list the suggested retail price of windows? It would be nice to know.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2013 at 3:26PM
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millworkman

Why not look for another Sunrise dealer, they should be able to steer you to one? Also window prices are not available on line as there are to many variables and or options that effect the pricing so much that it would do more harm than good.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2013 at 4:14PM
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PRO
Out of the Woods Inc.- Window & Door Specialists

I would ask them for a list of dealers in the area. The only place you'll find prices online are big box stores which usually are selling very low quality windows anyways.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2013 at 5:52PM
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HomeSealed

Every window does have a retail "list" price, similar to a car's MSRP. Unfortunately, I don't know of anywhere that these prices are published other than asking a dealer. That said, these prices are ultimately irrelevant, because as mentioned above, there can be a tremendous price range on the same exact product depending on market, business model, and other factors. The only real way to compare is to get quotes... And let me also say, kudos to you for surviving the high pressure sales pitch. Sunrise IS very good, up there with Okna and Softlite. Find a company that will respect your time and intelligence.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2013 at 8:46PM
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Karateguy

Dispicable tactics. Move on.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2013 at 11:28PM
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tjfarnan11

DIY505 how did you make out with your situation. I sell Sunrise windows with a dealer in upstate NY. It really matters on who the dealer is on how he sells his product. Some dealers use scams and pressure to sell their windows. Where I work we use nothing but honesty and dignity. If you have any questions about Sunrise windows I would be glad to help. I have them in my own house and they are outstanding. The Restorations line is their best window.

    Bookmark   November 17, 2013 at 9:07PM
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susanlynn2012

The guy that sold Renewal by Anderson was here for 2.5 hours with so much pressure after his long sales pitch. For three double hung double pane windows and one sliding doors he wanted over $12,412! If I buy in two weeks, the price is $11,171 and if I buy today, the price was $9,495. I told him before he came here and before his speech that I NEVER buy the same day and I had someone coming by the next day. This was almost as bad as the Power Windows sales pitch two years ago that wanted over $24,000 with four added windows!

The dealer that sold Sunrise came here for about one hour measuring and emailed me the next morning the quote for American Jewel Vinyl Replacement Windows Triple Glaze (hope this means triple pane since that is what I wanted), Double-Hung with a new Pro-Via Heritage Series Door and a Sunrise Vinyl Replacement Patio Door for the kitchen. Then when I asked him to give me a price for Sunrise Windows, he did right away via email the next day and the price was $926/ window versus $795/window. Replacement Windows- Triple Glaze. The two quotes only differed in their windows he sent me Windows with a new door and a new patio door.

I am in a townhouse so I have to have Colonia Grids in my windows and Patio Door and the front door has to look the same. $926 - $795 = $131 more per window for Sunrise but it sounds like per this forum that it is worth it.

So for triple pane instead of Anderson's Double Pane and going with Sunrise instead of American Jewel, I save so much and I get a front door! The price is half of what it is with Anderson if I take out the door PLUS I did not have to buy that day to get the price! I am not pressured and can decide up to a year on the quote.

This company does a lot of windows for my townhouse complex and I can see why since they are local and fair.

Hence, I would not take that one salesperson as a reflection on Sunrise.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2013 at 4:07PM
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doorproz

I could never endorse american jewel, i dont care how cheap you can get it for. Sunrise is a good window ( NOT sunrise essentials though) i also really like Okna, quantum 2 windows, and soft lite' s upper end Elements window.
Provia make a great door but also look at HMI Doors, equally as nice particularly their steel doors that come with a woodgrain.
How much was the patio door and how much was the entry door?

This post was edited by doorproz on Tue, Dec 3, 13 at 17:56

    Bookmark   December 3, 2013 at 5:52PM
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HomeSealed

I'd also strongly favor the Sunrise product, right up there with the Okna, and Softlite units. Did you compare the performance data of the two products before choosing? Often times the same specs (ie: triple pane with argon) can yield dramatically different results such as several points of u-factor (actual tested thermal rating) and air leakage, etc. Kind of similar to how a V8 may get 200hp in one car, and 400hp in another. Gotta dig a little deeper.... Definitely a good choice on the entry and sliding doors though ;)

    Bookmark   December 3, 2013 at 6:59PM
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susanlynn2012

DoorProz & Homesealed, I thank you both! I have not made up my mind yet but I did know before posting, that I was not going with American Jewel and that is why I emailed the installer/store back and told them to give me a quote for the Sunrise as I knew he was a sunrise dealer since his name and store was given to me last year from Sunrise..

Tomorrow night, I have a Okna approved dealer coming by whose name was given to me last year when I was going to get windows but decided to wait as they were so much money.

I will share everything when I get my other quote and then I will make a decision. Anderson Renewal is not being considered and I do not want American Jewel windows despite the specs looking the same after doing reviews the other day.

Thank you both and everyone on this forum that posted above for sharing what you know. Anyone else who wants to give input to this thread, that would be helpful.

Homesealed, thank you for letting me know that the entry door and sliding doors is a good choice. :)

    Bookmark   December 3, 2013 at 7:19PM
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doorproz

No problem Lynn2006. I use both provia and hmi and they are both great.
I just saw the new okna patio door when i installed an HMI entry door and i was shocked as to how nice it was. Very good looking patio door and well made.
To okna's credit, they have the lowest air leakage rate of any patio door that i know of.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2013 at 7:36PM
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susanlynn2012

Doorproz, thank you for letting me know that the Okna door has the lowest air leakage rate of any patio door. I can't wait to get quotes for Okna windows and doors tomorrow.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2013 at 8:14PM
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Karateguy

The okna and sunrise doors are probably the top two out there IMO. Okna has the performance advantage and a fully welded frame, well the sunrise operates a little "lighter" if you have small children or elderly peeps.

    Bookmark   December 3, 2013 at 8:41PM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

+1 Karateguy.

Astute and correct observations.

The Okna door, while tight as a drum for a SGD, can be a tad bit tough to slide in the larger openings.

There are some tricks you can do to tweak and improve the operation but she is still a heavy beast because of the 33% thicker glass and capture weatherstripping design.

    Bookmark   December 4, 2013 at 7:31AM
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susanlynn2012

DoorProz, Homesealed, Karateguy, WindowonWashington & any other professionals or knowledgable door people:

Okna 8800 " elegante patio door

Same specs for the: okna 800 " EnviroStar" deluxe double hungs Double Pane glass Vinyl Window

$150 more for triple pane

The knowledgeable installer & salesperson wrote: "Remember, triple lane is heavy on a door. I think I would prefer you get double pane for the door and triple for the windows, the patio door is extra strength tempered glass, there will be plenty of noise reduction."
------------------------------------

Sunrise Vinyl Replacement Patio Door includes Quad 4 Layer Weather Stripping.

Sunrise Vinyl Replacement Patio Door with double pane windows is $238 more than the Okna Patio Door with the double pane glass.

Which is the better door and should I stay with double pain and not go with Triple Pane despite wanting my door to be as warm as possible as my kitchen table sits in front of the door?

    Bookmark   December 6, 2013 at 7:30PM
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doorproz

I agree with what your okna dealer is saying. I also answered your other post.

    Bookmark   December 6, 2013 at 10:03PM
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susanlynn2012

Thank you doorproz so much!

    Bookmark   December 6, 2013 at 10:13PM
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