Marvin replacements/tempered glass?

pcwearySeptember 12, 2012

I have just received the quote for 6 Marvin Ultimate replacement windows, 72x42. The price is what I expected but I have the choice of going with tempered glass or not. Since no inspector will be issuing an ok, why should I concern myself with going with the tempered glass?

The saving is $900 and in this 50yr. old home, I ask why do I need to do this. I realize that it is code for any new construction but should I make the investment?

Your comments are really appreciated....

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EcoStarRemodel

Is tempered glass required by code for this job?

    Bookmark   September 12, 2012 at 11:03PM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

Regardless of inspection/inspector, use tempered glass if the code calls for it.

If/when you sell the home, you will be required to change it at that point if a qualified home inspector identifies that you did not use it where it should have been indicated.

It is code for a reason and is intended to be a safety provision.

Where are the windows going where tempered is being suggested? If it is within 18" from the floor, the individual sash must also be greater than 9 sq/ft. At a window size of 42" wide by 72" tall, it is not likely that the actual glass (not entire sash but the glass section) is 9 sq/ft.

I also know that tempered glass is cheaper than a plastic surgeon or trip to the hospital.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 7:12AM
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pcweary

Your input has been helpful but I am still pondering over this. Each sash is 39x43 inches with 12 panes of 9.5" x 12" per sash. The windows are just a few inches off the floor. It is my understanding that the Marvins insert replacements are considered ordinary repair, not new construction, and therefore, no permit or inspection is required.

The installation is being done by a highly reputable Marvin dealer who has done work for me before. Their installers are the best. I was told that the tempered glass for me would be an option. These windows are all across the front of my ranch home.

The sale of my home is possible within the next 5 yrs.,but I have not ever heard of this issue coming up as a result of a home inspection on existing home sales, where there have been no changes to the structure, such as an addition.

I am just trying to justify the expense, since it is an option.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 9:17AM
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EcoStarRemodel

Let me try and be a little clearer here.

First of all, if the windows are required to have tempered glass per code and you do not follow it, you are in violation of National Code. It does not matter whether the installer is certified by Marvin or anyone else. It also doesn't matter if you think you will not get caught when selling. The law is the law. If those windows are required to have tempered glass and you and/or the dealer ignore that fact, and 5 years from now you sell the house to a young couple with children and one of them is severely injured by broken glass, you and the dealer who sold them to you will lose everything you have in the ensuing lawsuit. Building Codes are set up to remove personal opinions and attempts to save a buck when it comes to safety.

Now, with that said, if the glass on those windows are within 18" of the floor AND the glass in the lower sash is greater than 9 sq.Ft. AND they are 36" or less from a doorway, sidewalk, patio or deck, then the National Building Code requires them to have tempered glass. I would strongly suggest that IF this is the case and the dealer is telling you something different, that you find another dealer because he either doesn't understand the code or he is perfectly willing to violate it. In either case you would NOT be well served to take his advice or to have him perform any work that could leave you a huge liability. BTW, that liability doesn't go away if you sell the house and nobody notices the violation at the time. You will forever be liable because it is your house and you knowingly did something you knew was against the law.

How would you feel if someone sold you a used car and that person knew that something had been done to the brakes that made that car unsafe to drive? If, due to their negligence, you were seriously injured, would you just say "oh, well" or would you be looking for a very aggressive personal injury attorney?

Hopefully, this clears it up for you.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 10:51AM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

Code is code regardless of insert or new construction.

If the window is 42" by 72" tall, is likely that it does not meet the 9 sq/ft minimum to require tempering in applications that are less than 18" from the floor and within 36" of a walking surface.

A 42" wide insert window would have less than 36" of glass (in most cases) and the 72" in total height would translate to less than 36" of height of the glass in the sash.

Both of these would equal out to less than 9 square feet and therefore not meet all 4 parts of the code requiring tempered glass.

As Eco mentioned, you gotta stay with code and your dealer should already be providing you with this information. This is not up to your or their discretion.

Here is a link that might be useful: Tempered glass code

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 12:03PM
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EcoStarRemodel

I agree the windows likely do not require tempered glass per code. But, it is very close and the OP needs to be absolutely sure before proceeding. I am shocked sometimes at the cavalier attitude sometimes shown by contractors regarding safety. Too often they let their personal biases interfere with offering the best advice to a homeowner whether it be tempered glass codes or lead paint containment.

In this case I would inform the homeowner that they were very close to the limits of the code if that turns out to be the case, but would still recommend they use tempered glass even if it wasn't required by code.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 12:15PM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

I agree 100% Eco.

Tempered glass is cheap insurance as I mentioned in 3rd post under yours.

When in question, temper it.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 3:22PM
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pcweary

Thank you, Eco and others...the quote was emailed to me yesterday and since then the company has contacted me to discuss in detail the quote.
They, too, advised me that even though I was not required, I should seriously consider having the tempered glass for safety and liability. Much of what you told me.

This was something I did not expect, as I was unaware. Now I know. Thanks again to all who posted. My new Ultimates will have the tempered glass.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 3:53PM
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PRO
Windows on Washington Ltd

Good.

At that size and proximity to the floor, it is usually a good idea.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 4:34PM
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EcoStarRemodel

I agree. In my own home, I put tempered glass everywhere there is any possibility someone could slip and fall into the glass. I consider it very cheap insurance.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 4:50PM
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brickeyee

"you are in violation of National Code"

What national code?

Building codes are state/county/city creations.

The 'national codes' are MODEL codes that localities can adopt, with whatever changes and variations they desire.

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 8:55PM
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EcoStarRemodel

ANSI Z97.1 standards were adopted by CPSC 16 cfr 1201 and apply Nationally. Can you name anywhere in the U.S where the CPSC/ANSI standards for tempered glass do not apply?

    Bookmark   September 13, 2012 at 9:29PM
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toddinmn

They do not not enforce tempered codes in Minneapolis for storm windows nor for modifications made to windows. If I cross the river into Saint Paul they do but typically would not check.I have not heard of anyone selling a house being made to bring glass to current IBC code nor have I seen it called out in a home inspection.Both of these Cities also have conflicting enforcement on egress windows as well.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 9:54AM
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EcoStarRemodel

IBC and IRC enforcement is a local issue. Most jurisdictions have adopted these standards and thus, they are the law. If the building inspectors are not enforcing the code, they are also subjecting themselves and their localities to potential lawsuits and should be reported to the State Attorney General. I suspect most of these types of injuries receive an out of court settlement and therefore stay out of the newspapers.

I can assure you that most people who had a child seriously injured and/or permanently scarred for life due to crashing into a window that was required to be tempered glass, would be looking for a very aggressive attorney to start filing lawsuits against any and everyone who was responsible.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 10:39AM
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brickeyee

"ANSI Z97.1 standards were adopted by CPSC 16 cfr 1201 and apply Nationally. Can you name anywhere in the U.S where the CPSC/ANSI standards for tempered glass do not apply?"

Did you read the standard?

Do you understand how it is applied?

"To test and identify glasses as safety glazing which will be used in locations where required in building codes."

It does not mandate the locations, just the standards the glass is required to meet.

BUILDING CODES mandate the locations.

Run by states and localities.

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 2:46PM
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EcoStarRemodel

I already covered that. I said it was adopted by localities and the enforcement was local. Can you name somewhere that it doesn't apply?

    Bookmark   September 14, 2012 at 4:53PM
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brickeyee

"I already covered that."

No you doid nbot,

You alluded to the ANSI standrd as covering far more than it does.

It is simply a glass standard with defined testing.

Many localities have not adopted every provision of the model codes.

Proving a negative ("Can you name somewhere that it doesn't apply?") is a fools errand and not worthy of anyone's time.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 3:09PM
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EcoStarRemodel

"Proving a negative ("Can you name somewhere that it doesn't apply?") is a fools errand and not worthy of anyone's time."

That's the usual response when someone can't back up what they claim or just want to be argumentative.

Fact is, nowhere in the U.S. that I am aware of, and apparently you aren't either, does the IBC code in regards to tempered glass not apply. That's why you can't answer the question.

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 7:23PM
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EcoStarRemodel

I will correct one thing I said. The Tempered Glass requirement comes from the IRC.

But as usual, rather than trying to be helpful, you choose to be argumentative.

You win, feel superior now?

Here is a link that might be useful: IRC Tempered glass

    Bookmark   September 15, 2012 at 7:38PM
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pcweary

Well now I am really confused! It is like looking at an abstract with six squares but someone else sees 12 cubes.

" 7.1. Exposed area of an individual pane is greater than 9 sq. ft."

My individual pane would be 12" high by 9.5" wide. There are 12 panes to a sash and there are two sashes. The individual pane is certainly not 9 sq. ft. .??? What am I missing here?

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 9:29AM
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EcoStarRemodel

No, when using grids between the glass, you are creating the "look" of individual panes of glass. The entire sash is actually one piece of glass. Even if you chose SDL's it would still just be the illusion of individual panes.

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 9:38AM
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pcweary

Thanks, Eco. That defines it better for me.

    Bookmark   September 16, 2012 at 9:51AM
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