Really frustrated and fed up

lovehadleyAugust 23, 2010

I do not know what to do. I'm sick to my stomach.

My husband lied to me--AGAIN. He is out of town on a car buying trip and I have had to talk to his business partner a few times about some business info.

He brought up the car deal with BM and asked me for her email because I guess she had called HIM needing some kind of titling info. Whatever.

I gave it to him and he made some comment about how BM had dropped off a gift certificate for me and DH--a restaurant one, as a way of saying thanks. That is a nice gesture, right?

Well then partner opens his big mouth, inserts foot, and says "Hopefully, this will smooth things all over with her, I know that's what your DH was trying to do by getting her this van."

Immediately---immediately---I KNEW. I said innocently, "how much did DH make on this deal?" and his partner said "nothing, sold it at wholesale value."

Then I said "oh, that's funny, he told me he made $600."

And then his partner fumbled all over for words "oh, maybe, I don't know."

So my DH is a liar. And I don't really care the reason or whatever, he has LIED to me about stuff pertaining to BM and I am FURIOUS.

After all we have been through regarding his relationship/friendship with her, after telling me he wouldn't get involved, he has lied.

Seriously---I am so upset.

This kills me. He is my hubby and I LOVE him, but I feel like this is just all a waste of time; he should not be acting like this.

If it were me---honstly, I think I would leave---but there is my sweet girl who calls him DADDY, loves him, has honestly forgotten he is not her bio-dad. When I contemplated divorce last spring, even my own FAMILY said it would not be easy to do b/c it would devastate DD and that I should do everything to make the marriage work, if not for me, then for HER.

DH told me last spring--and has repeated it in counseling--that he would absolutely still be her dad, would adopt her, have her as much time as I would allow. There is no doubt in my mind about that---I would have to allow that because he IS her dad, and I could never take that from her. It's hard to understand if you've not been in a situation like this, but he adores her, and her him. She does not have another father, just him. He is all she has known since she was TWO YEARS OLD, and she is now EIGHT.

These lies make me think our marriage is beyond repair. I mean, what is the point of all the stupid counseling we are doing, if he is going to act like that?

UGH. Every time I bring up divorce---he begs and pleads and says he has never loved anyone like me. And 90% of the time, he is great. It's BM---and that issue---his lack of boundaries. Not that we don't bicker over stupid stuff but ALL of our FIGHTS are over THAT.

Thoughts? Am I over reacting again?

To make my morning all the worse, BM sent me a facebook message, the ONE place I never blocked her--knowing DH is out of town and saying that we have some school form at our house (???) for lunch money on SS's account and I absolutely need to meet her to give it to her today.

She packed his lunch but he just cannot survive the day without lunch money??? And I am sure that if she went into the school office, they would have given her a new form! She could have EASILY done that when she dropped SS off at school this morning.

I wrote back a brief email and said I did not have time to meet her anywhere, nor was it appropriate for her to ask; and she needed to wait until DH was back in town, which is LATE TONIGHT. I told her she could talk to him in the morning or get a new copy from the school secretary and to please not email me again.

UGHHHH. I wish I had renewed my restraining order and as far as DH goes...I do not even know what to think or do.

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Oh Love. For goodness sake. No, you're not overreacting. If he'll lie about the little things he'll lie about the big things.

My ex lied about little things. I finally got fed up, and that's why we divorced. After we divorced I found out he had lied about "real" stuff... "big" stuff. Stuff that I would have divorced him in a hot second for, had I known.

People told me to stay for the sake of DD, who is his bio child. I'm so glad I didn't. I would have been miserable. And kids can tell.

The school has extra forms. I just sent DD in with a check today made out to the school district for her lunch. They can figure it out. BM can figure it out. She needs to put her big-girl panties on.

They have some weird co-dependence thing going on. If he's never loved anyone like you (of course, because there is only one you, right?? and if by that you meant "as much as you" then pity the fool he loved even less than he's showing you.... because love is respect, and he has NO respect for you that I can see) then he needs to make you #1 after his child, and the #1 adult in his life. He's not. That's telling.

1. He said he wouldn't
2. He did, and didn't talk to you about it
3. He waited to get caught, then acted like a child "go ahead and get mad, I know you will"
4. He lied, and said he made money
5. He just got caught.

He wants to get caught. He's a bad liar. He's not on your side.

Get the heck out of there.


    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 1:14PM
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I think he lies because he knows you get angry if he says the truth. I think he only has two options: get into arguments with you or lie, he chooses lying, many people would do the same. I don't condone it but am trying to understand...of course there is the third option: avoid doing favors for BM, but he is not choosing that option for whatever reason.

I put up with a lot of crap from my ex to avoid confrontation or to keep DD out of drama. I put up with stuff that others probably wouldn't...That's what your DH is doing, avoiding confrontation with BM and with you, he is probably lying to both of you.

Your DH probably not telling you about gift certificate or her stopping by or not making deals of her as to avoid arguments with you.

It is really wrong of him to lie, but I could kinda see why he feels like lying, it is easier.

I don't always mention to SO if i talked to ex, or what we talked about, plus SO sometimes acts like he is jealous of ex (silly really). I understand we aren't married, it is different, but sometimes it is easier to omit information. my mom doesn't always tell my dad how much things cost because he believes everything is too expensive and it easier to lie than listen to him nagging about her spending too much.

I am not saying it is right, but your DH withholds info or lies in order to shut you up.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 1:33PM
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I'm so sorry. You must be very upset right now, and I can understand why.

You've said that your DH really hates confrontation, I think? And you've also said that BM tends to just completely go off because of stupid things? I suspect that DH was not lying to you for reasons that you or I might lie, but rather just out of, basically, cowardice and fear. It was wrong of him, and I'd be angry too - but I'd guess his reasons were exactly what everyone already thought (that if BM has a van she won't cancel all the time); the only difference is that he lied about making $600.

In fairness, how angry would you have been if you'd found out that he'd made no money on the sale from him? Do you tend to draw a line in the sand with BM and want no one to cross it? (I'd understand if you do with all you've been through!) Do you think it might be understandable, if not excusable, as to why DH would feel the urge to withhold information / lie regarding the van from you?

Kudos on telling BM to pound salt regarding whatever form she wants. She's just trying to pull your strings and see if she can make you dance - congrats on not allowing it.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 1:33PM
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I am with mattie on this, he lies out of fear, not only fear of BM messing things up but also fear of you being angry. he is afraid of people being angry at him, it possibly comes from how he was raised. he does anything he can to avoid people being angry at him. i think he needs individual therapy to get to the bottom of it. I don't think he lies to hurt you.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 1:39PM
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I agree with Mattie and PO1 in the aspect that he THINKS it's easier to lie.

Like a kid. Just spank me and get it over with.

He's avoiding confrontation but creating division. My dad used to do this with my SM and I. He'd be on "both teams", telling each one they are right, defending the two of us against the other one. And we'd both get angry with him. It's monkey in the middle. No one wins.

DH needs to grow a pair, make decisions and stop lying. The lies are not ok. IMO, lying about how much something cost is not ok. It means, I'm not old enough or mature enough for you to think I can manage money, so you're going to come down on me, so I'm going to lie because it's easier.

That's BS, IMO. It's not mature, it's not healthy. It may be "normal" but it's not the kind of relationship I want to have.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 2:04PM
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I may not have the back-story straight; BM has alcoholic rages, I think? If DH started this lying at that time, it is completely understandable. Unless/until you've had the (dis)pleasure of listening to someone literally screaming and crying for 45 minutes about how you hate them and want to ruin their life because you took the last ice cube from the tray, it's harder to understand why someone might take to lying ("Ice cube? No, honey, the space aliens took it") rather than the truth - after all, it's not like the screamer is going to remember it the next day either way.

Of course, that would not excuse DH's continuing to behave that way now. I don't know, if he is overall a really good guy I'd be inclined to cut him some slack on this one. He may have had every intention of telling Love the truth... in a little bit... soon; and then somehow he got caught off guard, panicked, reverted to previous behavior and out came the lie.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 2:38PM
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I would not toss his clothes out into the front yard yet.But I also would not totally write it off. I think the entire incident...from initial "I won't get invovled" and right on up to "I made $600" is something worth discussing and sorting over at your counseling session.

If he's great 90% of the time and you don't distrust him in any other areas (other than the BM crap) then I think if you believe your problems all stem to BM and his warped relationship with and concerning her, then it's worth a shot to delve in and see if the two of you can't come to understand the whys and hows and get to the overcome part.

Only you know what your relationship is and whether are not you want to continue to work on it.

And yeah, good move on the message from BM. Let her figure it out.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 2:56PM
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I think what is frustrating about this particular lie is that DH thinks it is OK to lie to his wife but not OK to say "no" to his exwife. It is almost like is the peace with exwife more important than peace with current wife, you know what i mean?

i feel the same as justmetoo on this, i think what he did is a serious offense and needs to be discussed on a serious level but I would not divorce over it right away.

he is clearly scared of ex. SO's ex only recently stopped calling hysterically screaming or sending angry all capitals emails, or snail mail letters about nothing (really nothing, like how dared he allow sick SD bake cookies or other nonsense), and he kept quiet, just said "please don't scream". I cannot imagine him tolerating anyone else hysterically screaming at him.

i think DH is afraid Bm will make his life hell, so he goes with the flow and lies to love to avoid confrontation. he needs individual therapy, besides marriage therapy.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 5:24PM
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I abhor how the word divorce is cast about in these situations.
I believe that EVERY couple should have the discussion about the divorce as in it will never be brought up in the relationship unless you plan on marching right on out the door and signing the papers that day.
Makes me ill that our society views of divorce have become so blase'.
With Loves post today I'm getting a clearer picture of why her hubby is evasive, fibs, omits...I'd probably fib too if I thought I was being censored and got a tongue lashing every time I had contact with my ex.
I'd wanted to be on your "side" Love...but the comment you made : "UGH. Every time I bring up divorce---he begs and pleads and says he has never loved anyone like me." changed my mind.
I think where your hubby needs to grow bigger ones is to put the two women who want to control him in both of their places.
Seems he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Poor fellow.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 5:29PM
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I'm almost positive I'll get a tongue lashing from my post...but if it saves the lions share of negative energy going to your hubs...all the better.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 5:31PM
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He is trying to keep peace with BOTH women. Giving ex what she wants (so she'll leave him alone or get along) and lying to (keeping in the dark) DW ~ or maybe he likes to think of it as "what love doesn't know won't hurt her" and HIS life is much easier.

Saying no to ex will get him nothing but grief, so he tries to appease her. Lying to 'love' gets him peace, until she finds out... then he's willing to let her be angry (because he knows it wrong) but hey, she loves him still, right? She'll forgive him, ex won't. It's what our kids do too.... they know we will still love them at the end of the day.

and deborah ps: No tongue lashing here.... I think the same way. I have to admit that sometimes these situations seem hopeless to us, but we are all hearing the cr@p stuff that irritates us or makes us mad... not all the good stuff that really outweighs the bad. **and of course we tend to write a post when we are emotionally charged over whatever situation is aggravating us on that day**

I really think the "game playing" needs to be addressed. Hubby is playing a game of juggling to keep everyone at peace and he's gonna end up with his balls on the floor ~

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 9:01PM
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We HAVE discussed divorce--we separated for part of last spring and are in marriage counseling over this issue. Divorce has been discussed in our counseling sessions!

I am not "for" divorce but I also have to be realistic that our marriage may not work, and a lot of that IMO is due to his relationship with BM.

He has cheated on me with her.

She attacked me when she was drunk.

She reported me for child abuse---false allegations.

Today, she sent me a slew of nasty messages after I said I wouldn't meet her. Told me to stop getting HER son's fathe to play my daughter's dad, and that I need to understand THEIR relationship is way deeper than my marriage ever will be. I'm ugly, fat and my daughter pisses the bed. And SS hates me, hates my mom, hates my grandma, hates DD.

This woman has made our lives a living hell and MY STUPID DH will not draw and set boundaries. And to me, it is like HOW MUCH am I supposed to take?

I DO tell DH that I feel fed up, that this marriage is not working like this. THAT is when he tells me he loves me, wants it to work ETC but he shows me NO actions about that.

And yeah...I do vent on this forum..but seriously, my marriage is in the crapper and I am dead serious when I say MY issue is HIS lack of boundaries with her.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 9:09PM
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UGH. Deborah, I hear you, but you do not know the history here. This makes me sad because I NEVER wanted to be in this situation, I believe in love and committment....BUT what happens when the other person isn't doing what they're supposed to do? Multiple calls from BM a day to DH? She is constantly in our lives BY HIS CHOICE because he will not keep the relationship cordial but not too friendly.

And he always promises to make it better....our COUNSELOR has told him he needs to enforce his boundaries with her, decide if his marriage or ex is more important. And he does for awhile and then slides right back into it again.

And I don't want to lose him but at the same time--HOW MUCH is too much? I don't know. I ask him that all the time. What would he do/think in my shoes? How would he feel?

I agree in theory divorce should not be on the table but I have to be honest with my DH about what I am willing to accept. A friendship with the woman he cheated on me with, the woman who assaulted me, and has done awful horrid things over the years is NOT okay with me.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 9:15PM
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I have been mulling this over and I DO respect your opinion. I NEVER thought I would be contemplating divorce. EVER.

So, what advice would you give me?

I am truly curious, not being sarcastic or anything. I am just wondering. If you were in my shoes, and felt so unhappy, and like you and DH weren't on the same wavelength, what would you do?

I don't know. It is sad. I sometimes feel like maybe we are just incompatible. I can't accept his relationship with BM, he can't change, it is what it is.

But how do you know when it's time to quit? Or keep trying?

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 9:35PM
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"I really think the "game playing" needs to be addressed. Hubby is playing a game of juggling to keep everyone at peace and he's gonna end up with his balls on the floor ~ "

The above quote is courtest of Ima. It's gotta be THE BEST closing sentence I have ever read!!!!!

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 9:43PM
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I was so tempted to say "screw cordial"... cordial works if BOTH sides can be so. She obviously CAN'T. But, that really isn't the problem at hand (well, partially it is). The problem is that your DH isn't willing or able to have boundaries with her, for whatever reason.

Some people, you cannot be cordial with. At one time, we were cordial, even friendly with SD's BM. Over time, she proved that she would only be friendly if WE were doing things FOR HER. She never reciprocated & when she was told no, there was hell to pay. It was ALL one way. We are at the point with her that ALL communication is via text or email. When we are picking up SD, if she behaves herself (if she is cordial), we are cordial but it's certainly not friendly. With my son's father, it got to the point where we sent someone else to do exchanges so we NEVER had to see them (his wife created scenes during the exchanges). It's great if people can get along and play nice, but when it starts to affect things like your marriage, your health, your sanity... something needs to change. Love's DH needs to decide if his marriage if more important than keeping his ex happy. Love will need to decide if her marriage (as it currently is) is more important than her sanity/happiness/etc.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 10:11PM
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If it were me---honstly, I think I would leave---but there is my sweet girl who calls him DADDY, loves him, has honestly forgotten he is not her bio-dad. When I contemplated divorce last spring, even my own FAMILY said it would not be easy to do b/c it would devastate DD and that I should do everything to make the marriage work, if not for me, then for HER.

DH told me last spring--and has repeated it in counseling--that he would absolutely still be her dad, would adopt her, have her as much time as I would allow.

Hypothetically, if you were to divorce, is this what would be best for your daughter? Legally, can he do so, or is it not possible because of her bio-father? If both those answers are yes, then I would actually do the adoption, the sooner the better, in all honesty that you don't know where the marriage is going to end up but you think it is in her best interests to have him as a dad. No, that would not mean you wouldn't still consider how a divorce would affect your daughter, but it would resolve the uncertainty of whether or not you would be taking away her father and brother. That would leave you a bit more clarity to evaluate the marriage and your relationship with him on its own merits and less need to do so out of fear for your daughter. Who knows whether that would tell you to leave or to redouble your efforts to save the marriage *for yourself*, but it would at least give you a different viewpoint and more importantly would provide certainty to his and your daughter's relationship.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 11:04PM
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"don't know where the marriage is going to end up but you think it is in her best interests to have him as a dad.

This is what I think and know in my heart is best for her. He has been in her life as a father figure since she was not quite two. She has called him daddy for almost three years now. She adores him and he her.

I think this is a good idea because, you are right, it takes the uncertainty out of the equation and you are right, would give me a better standing. I would feel like we could work on our marriage of its own accord, for each other, and not me doing it so DD can have a the back of my mind.


Thanks ladies. Your insight is always good.

    Bookmark   August 23, 2010 at 11:32PM
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Love, I sincerely apologize since I posted without knowing significant issues in your marriage.
I do understand what it feels like when your hubby doesn't have your back. Like sand shifting beneath your feet. And the frustration of trying to communicate how devastating his actions are in growing a trusting future with him.
I get not wanting a divorce, yet knowing full well that is exactly where the marriage is headed. And hating that for the future of your child and the future of his.

Again, I'm sorry I miss spoke.
I'm wishing you peace in this time of strife.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 5:46AM
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would biodad allow adoption? you know how some evil people are, don't see their kids yet wouldn't want someone else to be the father. good decision to do the adoption right now.

i know it is your decision and i in all honesty believe things can work better and your marriage can survive all this (everything else seems to be working fine it is just BM's issue), but do not stay in marriage for the children, don't.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 7:14AM
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--"Today, she sent me a slew of nasty messages after I said I wouldn't meet her. Told me to stop getting HER son's fathe to play my daughter's dad, and that I need to understand THEIR relationship is way deeper than my marriage ever will be. I'm ugly, fat and my daughter pisses the bed. And SS hates me, hates my mom, hates my grandma, hates DD"--

Is this the also what BM does to your DH when BM does not get what she wants from him? If so, it might account to why he tries to be strong/set boundaries but in the end fails to do so and/or ends up going eventually to doing so. What an abusive manipulative witch that seems to know every hot button to push! Is it possible this is what he faces each time he displeases her?

From the emails, it seems pretty clear BM still habors a lot of hate and emotional rage towards you. Watch your back, I wish you would have renewed your RO, this lady dislikes your very existance and the thought that you and your daughter share Mr. Love and SS's life.

While I get the thought of DH adopting your daughter because of the loving bond between DH/son and her, think long and hard on it. The first thought I had...which may be far off base...was what happens after the divorce (if there is one) and Love can't control what is happening in her daughter's life. For example, afternoon outings with DH and also BM and SS. DH jumps when this lady snaps and I'd think she'd like to rub in Love's face the 'hey, lookie me B%tch, I got him to share YOUR daughter with ME'.

I don't know. I guess I'm just afraid that while you're trying to do what is right and fair towards and for your daughter, that as long as DH is this sickly tied to BM that it might be asking for a whole another can of worms and one you would not get much input in. I'd hate to think of your daughter being subjected to this woman and all her hate and dysfunction.

The BM in your case, scares me, she's extremely unstable. Not trying to be an alarmist or borrow trouble where none may actually exist, just think you need to look at everything before you make any long term decisions.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 7:40AM
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Those are good points, justmetoo. Good food for thought.

And, no, bio-dad would not have a problem with DH adopting DD. I think he would be glad, actually.

It just sucks all around, though.

I know DH loves DD and would do anything for her--but he won't protect me and our marriage from BM issues, heck, he won't even protect his own son sometimes! It is easier for him to roll along with her than be firm and cause a fight.

I think she is frightening, too. I spent yesterday afternoon in tears over the stupid emails, forwarding them to my DH and then I ended up SCREAMING at him on the phone "WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT THIS?!!!!!"

I feel awful when I get that upset over things, but yesterday was terrible. That was pretty much the first contact I'd had with BM since the RO expired in May. And all because I wouldn't meet her to give her a stupid form? It wasn't that--it was because she felt rejected.

See, she has this sick love/hate thing with me. She has tried numerous times since the RO expired to get me to talk to her on the phone (DH's, she doesn't have my cell) and I always refuse. And she tells DH "oh, I just need her advice about this or that" or "I need a friend to listen."

The woman has no friends. Can you imagine that???? HA.

DH supports me in me not wanting to talk to her BUT there are times he acts--and some of this may be me projecting---like I am being dramatic. He certainly did get irritable with me over the RO issues, and when BM violated a couple times, he expected me to ignore it for "SS's sake" and to keep the peace.

I don't know. What bothers me is her deep-seeded resentment and jealousy and hatred towards me. It's like she desperately wants me to like her but then I show an ounce of boundaries and she can't stand that!

It is weird and creepy.

Oh, she also said that SS is *terrified* of DH because DH drank a beer on the boat on our vacation. This is true, DH had two beers out on the lake in the course of a five hour boat trip---and my DH is a big guy, 200+ lbs.

But supposedly SS told his mom that his dad drank beer and shouldn't have? SS views alcohol as "bad"---and WHOSE fault is that? But of course BM ran with it and told SS (supposedly) that his dad should not drink around him, and that she would do something about it. (Or so she told me, who knows what she really told SS.)

UGHHH. DH laughed last night and said she is just jealous b/c the parenting plan forbids HER from consuming alcohol. My DH is not a drinker---the fact that SS was apparently upset by the beers kind of highlights the point that he is not. I mean, occasionally, we have a bottle of wine in the fridge and now and then DH will buy a pack of Coronas, but that's about it. Not on a daily basis or anything---more of a Sunday afternoon/BBQ/couple beers or glass of wine w/dinner basis.

I'm antsy over how irrational she was---her emails were exactly the way she used to be before she quit drinking---just off the wall, angry etc.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 7:58AM
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Maybe the insane emails are actually going to be a good thing. Your DH just went out of his way to help her out with the van, his partner said he did it to smooth things over with her - and she turns right around and behaves appallingly again, immediately afterward. I can only hope at some point, one of these times, the stadium floodlights suddenly turn on over your DH's head. Maybe this will be the time.

I can't remember; is this woman mentally ill as well? I'm starting to wonder if the drinking is a symptom and not the cause. Is there some underlying mental illness that sometimes flares up and which she is self-medicating for (with alcohol)?

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 8:09AM
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"is this woman mentally ill as well?"

I think so. DH has always said she has "hormonal issues." Apparently, her mom has the same problems and even wears some kind of hormone patch. I don't know what that means, though.

What is the diff between mental illness and hormone probs? The latter sounds like a made-up excuse.

BM IS on Lexapro--she calls it her miracle drug. After the assault and subsequent RO and then having the addendum preventing her drinking added to the parenting plan, she started seeing a psychiatrist and went on Lexapro.

She has told DH many times how great it is for her, how she needs it to remain calm and stable.

And, really, for the past year, she HAS been smooth and calm---a teeny flare up here and there but nothing like this.

So I don't know if she went off of it---if she is drinking again (don't think so) or who knows.

I think she really viewed the van issue as DH being her friend, and then she took the opportunity to approach me--like thinking things were smoothed over and we could be friendly? I don't know WHY she would think that, anyway, because---regardless--DH was the one who helped with the car, NOT ME.

I really am not sure.

She could also be set off about other issues---that is typically what used to cause her moods. A lot, a lot, a lot of it is jealousy--she is jealous b/c DH and I do a lot of things with the kids that she cannot do with SS. It's not even really us---my family take us on wonderful trips.

She was saying something to DH aobut it while we were at the lake---about how she felt bad b/c we've been to Colorado, Chicago, Michigan, Florida, the Carribbean, and Table Rock with SS, and she's never taken him anywhere.

I know she is *jealous* or threatened or whatever. I could even have empathy for that, and I do---I know I wouldn't like it--but she misdirects HER feelings of inadequacy and turns it to hatred and resentment.

I think that is why she made such a fuss over the beer issue---truly, I think SHE wishes she could have been on a boat in the sun, having a couple drinks!

I don't know--the problem is she is unstable all the way around and it's disturbing.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 8:23AM
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save her emails, will come handy one day

if she is an alcoholic but is currently not drinking, it explains her outbursts

or maybe she still drinks just not around SS, i bet you angry emails where in her intoxicated state

yes, justmetto is onto something, if DH adopts DD and something happens with your marriage (hope not), BM will be in DD's and your life forever...evil woman

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 8:27AM
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"she has this sick love/hate thing with me. She has tried numerous times since the RO expired to get me to talk to her on the phone (DH's, she doesn't have my cell) and I always refuse. And she tells DH "oh, I just need her advice about this or that" or "I need a friend to listen."

She tries to get you to talk to her because she is testing you. She wants to know if you are going to cave (like DH) and talk to her. To your DH, she plays innocent, "I'm just lonely", "I don't know why love can't get over the past", & admitting you are smart & have information she needs but won't give her, emphasizes how she is trying to play nice & you won't... I wrote the next paragraph before this one, so look at what I say about her being in control. Her doing this is a way for her to maintain control.... she is saying to your DH "okay fine, I am trying my best to get along with love but SHE is the difficult one!" Coincidentally, my SD11 has been doing this. She has taken her dad aside and TOLD him that she's trying her best to get along with me but I am the one not getting along with HER. The truth: She now says "hi" when she comes in the room.... then goes back to ignoring me. Maybe that is the best she can do, but she feels like I should bend over backward to get along with HER. That's kinda what it sounds like your DH's ex is doing.

"What bothers me is her deep-seeded resentment and jealousy and hatred towards me. It's like she desperately wants me to like her but then I show an ounce of boundaries and she can't stand that!"

She doesn't WANT you to like her... she wants to feel/be in control. As long as you are playing nice to her & she's getting what she wants (and it may seem she wants your friendship), she feels in control. Setting boundaries shifts the control to YOU. Now she feels powerless & alone. YOU are in charge. She doesn't like that. Reminds me of some high school girls that always had "their girls" but they were always the "leader" in the group... and nobody wanted to cross the leader.

What I would tell your DH:

Do you really think what she is doing is in your son's best interest? Your son is witness to her bouts of anger/hate when she doesn't get her way. Your son is learning how to deal with someone like that by watching YOU! He is learning that when someone bullies him, he should just give them what they want so they will stop bullying him... but then they don't. They will just leave him alone until the next time. He is learning how to be a man by watching you and is this really what you want for him?

You chose to have a relationship with this woman, I DIDN'T! I have tolerated her because it was part of the package and I love you & SS. I have tried to be cordial and respectful of the fact she is your son's mother, but she has done everything she can to make OUR life hell, while she goes on about her own life... getting married & having another family. We don't get involved in HER life, we don't send HER nasty emails, we don't ask her for favors and if we do ask her for something & she can't do it, we do not go ballistic. This is destroying OUR marriage and I don't want that to happen. I love you and married you because I want a life with you and want to grow old with you. I can't have a life with someone I cannot trust. It would be easier to deal with your ex's crazy behavior if I knew I could trust you and that we are functioning as a team. But, when you go behind my back and lie to me, that destroys the trust I have in you. Then I have to wonder what else you have lied about. That is not something easy for me. I NEED to feel secure, but that creates insecurity. Our marriage has to be your priority & at the moment, I don't feel it is."

That's what I would tell him, or something to that effect. It's really about his son... what he's doing is not good for his son. and it's about his commitment to your marriage. Ranting to him with all the things she's done is probably going to put him in a defensive mode. He ends up feeling like the referee... ex saying look at me try to get along, wife saying look what she's done to me. But how can he argue with his wife wanting to save her marriage? and how can he argue that what his son has been exposed to isn't going to have lasting effects on his son's life & relationships?

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 9:04AM
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Hi Love,

1. I agree with the above. Don't bring up divorce. Ever. Unless you're ready to sign papers. That said, I can see why you would. If someone assulted me on my property and tried to take a child, any child, in my care or not, into a car when they'd been drinking, and then my DH took their side. Well. You're a nicer person than I am, let's just leave it at that.

2. Three is a crowd. BM is the third wheel, except that DH is trying to ride a tricycle and you prefer a bike.

3. BM lost. She's a sore loser. Someone mentioned here somewhere that BM's "always" want SM's to feel they are lesser than, that the BM's relationship was bigger, stronger, better, whatever. I don't think that's true, but I do see the point.

4. Honestly, I don't care if you ARE 'fishwifing' DH. He's a big boy. If he can't maintain a relationship with the mother of his son, and maintain a healthy marriage with the woman with whom he took vows I have little sympathy for the poor guy who is caught between two women.(I'm assuming you said the whole 'forsaking all others' and 'cleaving unto each other' bit).

HE needs to set boundaries. HE needs to MAN-UP and create a healthy relationship with his ex-wife with boundaries. HE has created this "Love will help us raise our son, Love will step in and fill the need, Love is BASICALLY our babysitter because she has absolutely no rights, no say, in what happens".

He doesn't "have your back". He's not "in your corner". He's playing both teams. It's not cool, it's not right. I don't care if you're screaming at him every night. If that's not acceptable to him he needs to put his foot down. Period.

BUT, it doesn't seem like screaming/crying/cajoling works with him. Someone, I believe on the marriage forum, said that it's time to change the dance. If what you are doing is not working, try a different tact.

Do not get involved with BM anymore. Put DH on notice that the lying is not acceptable. Unless you are violent there is no reason for any adult not to be able to say "I did this, I made a choice, I'm sorry if you don't like it but I felt it was necessary". And then discuss.

If he is unable to conduct that simple of a discussion/debate/conversation there are some serious issues going on.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 11:28AM
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". BM lost. She's a sore loser. Someone mentioned here somewhere that BM's "always" want SM's to feel they are lesser than, that the BM's relationship was bigger, stronger, better, whatever. I don't think that's true, but I do see the point. "

Yeah, it is a weird, weird thing. I wouldn't necessarily say she has *feelings* for DH, not, like romantic feelings anymore, BUT there is this competitive sense with her, like she feels I took her place or something.

I do think she is jealous that we are married. She and DH were together off and on for six-ish years (19-25 or so) and he never even so much as proposed, not even after they had a child together.

I mean, I know he looks at her now and isn't attracted to her or anything like that. He is even grossed out by her. She is 33--looks about 45, not kidding. Heavy smoker, and all her drinking/clubbing/partying old ways give her a "rough look." Add the fact that she's popped out two more kids, is on welfare, and well...DH just doesn't have anything for her.

BUT he has something and I agree, it is some kind of deep-seeded fear of her, avoidance of confrontation, wanting to be a peacekeeper, etc. It is a codependant relationship and BM still wants to be *more important* than me.

One of her countless messages said something about how I will never understand or come close to their bond, THEY have a child together, I don't have a child with him.

I don't get these women who use their kids as leverage and as an excuse to stay in and cause drama in their ex's life?

I mean, she is MARRIED and has two more children. Isn't it time to MOVE ON, live and let live? that is what just dumbfounds me.

I also know what you all mean about not bringing up divorce. We did agree to take it off the table in arguments; it's not acceptable to toss the word out in the heat of the moment, and I *try* to not do that, although I am not successful all of the time. I am a lot better about it, though, since we began counseling.

When it does come up, it is me who says it, but it is said in more of a "I don't know how much more I can take, please make some changes" kind of way.

I just think he honestly does NOT get it. Our counselor is good but I do think that you all may be right in saying DH needs some individual therapy to address deeper issues.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 11:48AM
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I have been following this thread over the last day and love you have a mess on your hands. You have a dh who has no backbone with his ex, but seems to find it with you. He tries to keep his ex happy at the expense of your happiness. He needs to make a choice, whose happiness is more important to him?? The ex or his and yours??

The lying HAS to stop. The giving into bm has to stop!

I do not think you are wrong in bringing up divorce because what is going on are things you can't and should not have to live with and settle for! He either needs to make you and your dd a priority above bm or say goodbye to you. He can not have this sick friendship with bm and a marriage to you. It is not healthy for anyone involved. And poor ss has to wittness this all. How will that boy ever have a healthy relationship when his model is this situation??

As for adoption, I would NOT allow dh to adopt dd. If he wants to be her dad he can be. But do not put yourself into a situation you may later regret because once you let him adopt her you have no control over what he does with her during his time if you split up. And sad to say it seems like that time could include bm.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 11:56AM
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I know mom2emall, I know what you mean about the adoption.

My DH has said numerous times--in counseling and with me---that if it came to divorce, he would spend as much time with DD as I allow. I truly do not believe he would abandon her, he ADORES her. I know he considers her his child, and even if we split, and another woman came along, I don't see him *dropping* her any more than he would drop his son. He truly considers her his child, the same as his son.

He has a GOOD GOOD heart in so many ways. I love him dearly. And our marriage is great 90% of the time, but it is this BM issue and his lack of control of the situation that's drowning us.

I cannot tell you all how much I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 12:06PM
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I'm so sorry.

I think you know the answer but you're sabotaging & defeating yourself by circular argument;
both of them are treating you like dirt, but you're hanging in there so he (this guy who treats you badly) will remain in your daughter's life.

not that you're the only one, it's what every woman, & especially every abused woman, tells herself, not realizing that her children are like little sponges, absorbing everything that happens.

& the constant lies & promises are classic abuser techniques.

better for a child to have no father than one who treats her mother badly.

I wish you the best.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 1:24PM
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Hi, Love. I am chiming in kind of late here. I wanted to share that my DH and I had a somewhat similar dynamic going on early in our marriage (and occasional relapses to this day). In our case, BM is not abusive or mentally ill. She is pretty reasonable. And yet still, even though he doesn't like to spend time with her, he to this day feels, I think, a sense of responsibility toward her, both as the mother of his daughters and as someone he once loved.

We are now in a good place about it for the most part. It still troubles me how friendly his conversations with her sound, even though he will do just about anything to avoid having them. He does wish her well. And if I think of it rationally, that's not only OK but desirable. It's important to her that he be friendly; it's important to her to "stake her claim" periodically about having been first in his life, the mother of his children, etc. The only thing that makes that OK for me, and lets it not tear DH and me apart, is that we are now on the same page, and he now understands what she is doing. Transparency is EVERYTHING.

Early in our marriage, I constantly felt that he was being untruthful. And that he was defending her and that she could do no wrong in his eyes, even though he had divorced her. We had a great counselor, who helped me see that DH genuinely thought he was protecting me when he sugarcoated her behavior. For example, in the early days she was very dismissive of me and my children. We would all meet for her to drop off her girls and she would say nothing to me or my children. If I pointed it out, DH would say "Oh, she's just shy." It was very hurtful. Working with the counselor, he was able to articulate his experience which was that he thought if he put BM's behavior in the best light, it wouldn't hurt me as much. Bless his heart! Wrong! Or, worse, if she called or they met, he "just wouldn't mention it," because "it was nothing and I didn't want you to feel bad."

Gradually we arrived at our current way of handling it--friendly as possible to BM, both of us, and then download later. It brings us together. AND, the #1 rule: total truth. Total. Sometimes I'm like "OK, that's enough detail," but I never say it out loud.

Anyway, boiled down my thought is, if your DH isn't being deceptive because he cares more for her than he does you, then he might just be trying to "protect" you--of course, that really means he's trying to protect his own cowardly self, ha!

And also, my DH actually DID get BM to back off quite a bit, and he had to behave in a way that was hard for him, in terms of hurting her feelings and making her feel rejected. But, now she knows that she needs to deal with both of us for the friendliness to happen.

Have you confronted your DH with the lie yet? I would be a volcano about that one. Best wishes.

    Bookmark   August 24, 2010 at 5:57PM
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I really doubt she is jealous DH goes on fancy vacations with SS, should she be happy SS goes somewhere with whoever can afford (plus really it is not even DH but your dad who can afford it).

On the other hand if she knows DH takes SS on vacations that your family is paying for she might be building resentment against you. I don't know...

My SO's ex just got huge inheritance, both of her parents passed in one year, they were wealthy and left her $1mil, so all of a sudden she is doing this and that for the kids. And all they talk about is BM and how much money she got. When SO is in bad mood LOL he goes and on how grandparents never ever did anything for the kids (true) and how BM was uninvolved mother (true) then all of a sudden she is doing everything and kids only talk about how mom is so great and want to be with mom all the time.

I know your situation is different but sometimes people feel resentment for weird reasons, and if BM is crazy then maybe she feels angry that your family is taking SS places.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 7:58AM
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"I really doubt she is jealous DH goes on fancy vacations with SS, should she be happy SS goes somewhere with whoever can afford"

That would be true if you are dealing with normal, rational people. But, love's DH's ex is not "normal". I am astounded by my SD's mother, who is also not "normal".... she doesn't want to do things with her daughter, but she doesn't want ME to do things with her either. Years ago, we planned a family cruise a few months after we got married. We had taken a couple of days after the wedding to go out of town as a honeymoon, but we wanted to take a longer trip & include the kids. At first, BM said she was SOOOO happy SD could get to go on such a trip because SHE could never afford such a trip. The day we were to leave on the trip, BM tried to say SD was sick ~ SD shouldn't go. When DH suggested that SD stay home with BM or my dad, all of a sudden BM relented and said SD 'miraculously' got better. I picked her up & she was fine the whole trip. It was a thinly veiled plan for BM to thwart our trip... she fully expected DH to cancel the trip or stay behind. When the option of leaving SD with BM came up, that changed everything. (That was at the point in BM's life where she was single & going out to nightclubs every weekend... and keeping SD would have ruined HER plans) At the time, I kinda figured she was testing to see if she could get DH to cancel. A few times since then, she has thrown it up at DH that if he can afford such trips (we've been on a few nice trips with SD), then how can HE expect HER to pay child support? After all, he has enough money to pay for vacations and she isn't even working. That is the mentality of some people. I've wondered if BM is jealous of our life when her life seems to be a constant struggle.

Another not 'normal' mom is my DIL. She told the court investigator in our guardianship case that "currently she did not want custody because she needed time to get on her feet, but she did not want ME to have full custody". Of course the court gave me DGS so now she is angry that I have him, maybe she would rather see him in foster care? My point is that Parent of One doesn't seem to have ever dealt with one of these 'abnormal' people. But, the example of how the SO feels now that BM has her inheritance & has become mother of the year (until the money is gone, I'm sure) is how a lot of parents that do the 'grunt' work feel when the 'lazy' (for lack of a better word) parent is treated like royalty when they finally DO something out of character... especially when the parent that feels they did all the work feels taken for granted. (ie. DH is raising SD, he goes to conferences, I take her to the doctor & BM does NOTHING. BM comes to ONE track meet & all of a sudden she is the hero & SD is on cloud nine.... forget the fact that she made excuses to not come to any other events.)

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 9:09AM
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"I really doubt she is jealous DH goes on fancy vacations with SS, should she be happy SS goes somewhere with whoever can afford (plus really it is not even DH but your dad who can afford it)."

First of, I didn't say "fancy vacations," just family trips with lots of fun and quality time.

And she is jealous or threatened or whatever, she has said it many times; the night she punched me, she cried about it.As she cried in my kitchen, she told me about how SS had made a book of memories and all the pictures he drew were of activities and trips he'd done with us. She was sobbing and saying how it made her so sad that we did all the thing she wanted to do with him.

Maybe jealousy is the wrong word, but it harps on her feelings of inadequacy, like she feels she is not experiencing enough with him. "Should" is the operative word here. A normal, emotionally healthy parent would be happy for their child getting to travel and see new places; but BM is not a normal, emotionally healthy parent.

Until you have dealt with a co-parent like this, parent-of-one, you really cannot understand their behaviors and reactions because they just seem so illogical.

I do think there is some issue on BM's part with my family. She has accused them of *overstepping* which I think is just CRAZY. SS adores my mom and especially my grandma; he is considered one of the grandchildren and treated as such. Everytime my grandma calls, she asks to speak on the phone to both DD and SS; she tells him she loves him at the end of phone conversations, as in "I love you, sweet boy." Hugs and kisses to him all the time. And he absolutely adores my grandma! He recently told DH he was so worried she might die soon because she is old and wrinkly, and then he got all teary and said he didn't want her to die. My cousin and his fiancee babysit for us sometimes and, again, SS loves them, asks when they can babysit again, when can he see them, etc. He loves my family.
A *normal* parent would be happy to have more loving people in their child's life but BM sees it as some sort of competition or threat. I don't get it.

But you can't apply logic to irrational people.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 9:31AM
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"She told the court investigator in our guardianship case that "currently she did not want custody because she needed time to get on her feet, but she did not want ME to have full custody".

This is exactly the kind of crazy behavior and irrational logic I am talking about, the kind we see displayed by BM time and time again.

Until you've dealt with it, it is just so crazy, it's hard to even fathom.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 9:41AM
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"I really doubt she is jealous DH goes on fancy vacations with SS, should she be happy SS goes somewhere with whoever can afford"

Ima, SS' BM is the same way, except possibly worse! We took SS on our honeymoon; we couldn't trust BM to not no-show; DH's parents were not physically able to watch a young boy, and, while my mom was willing SS didn't know her all that well yet so we decided to have a "family" trip rather than any real honeymoon. So we went to Disney. BM actually told SS that it wasn't fair that he got to go because she'd never been there. Not that she was upset that she hadn't gotten to take him herself, but that she had never gotten to go (maybe she thought we should take her on our honeymoon as well?!) So of course SS felt guilty half the time there because he was getting to enjoy something that his poor deprived mother had never gotten to do.

We are going back for a few days next month. SS has decided to not tell his mother about the trip yet because he says she'll get angry. I have absolutely zero doubt that she's going to flip out when she finds out about it, because it's the same month that her CS will start. Except.... I am paying for the trip - all of it. I make good money, I plan and search for great deals, and it is none of her business what I choose to spend my money on. But we are fully expecting a screaming phone call "SS doesn't need to go! He's going twice and I've never even been there once!" Something in her just does not work the same way as it does for other people.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 9:55AM
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"But we are fully expecting a screaming phone call "SS doesn't need to go! He's going twice and I've never even been there once!"

I would be ready with a fully ready answer, "He's a kid, doesn't he deserve to go as often as possible?" and to her "I've never been", I'd probably tell her she should check it out, it's a real fun place... but that kind of retort only makes things worse with those types. When BM blasted DH because we drive new cars, I opened my mouth & said "well, we both work TWO jobs" and she got offended by me pointing that out. She doesn't even want one part time job.. she wants everyone else to take care of things so she has time to hang out at the pool. (well, now she goes to the river, but her days are spent 'relaxing'. How dare anyone ask her to work & support her daughter... let alone expect her to fund her own trips. I might also point out that she has a cell phone, smokes, used to go out night clubbing, and traded in two paid off cars to buy a truck, in her mother's name of course, so now she has a payment... but she can't afford to help support her DD... so she has another baby? CRAZY!!!)

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 12:11PM
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"that kind of retort only makes things worse with those types"

Yep. It's so funny how when logic or reason is presented to these kinds of people, it only seems to throw fuel on the fire.

BM lit into DH last night about how awful and unhelpful I was by not meeting her with the school form, and then she started ranting about how it is "the least I could do," after all, SHE has to drive 30+ minutes each way to SS's school and "what does Love do to help out?"

EXCUSE ME? Last time I checked, I didn't give birth to SS, and I'm not on ANY of the court papers doling out custody and responsibilities. Not sure when I became the third parent in this, as in responsible for part of BM's stuff??? WOW.

As BM herself has so often pointed out: I AM NOT HIS MOTHER. I'm not his parent, but somehow when it's convenient for her, I'm expected to "help out" in raising "their son." OF COURSE I do help raise him happily---I help DH, NOT BM!--but I find it incredibly ballsy that she would accuse ME of not helping enough!

And God forbid I try to do a book reading in his classroom or volunteer at the book fair, both of which I did last year with diasastrous results-then I'm an over-reaching, over stepping psycho who needs to BUTT out of this kid's life. Then she is all over the fact that I am NOT his mother.

Mattie---enjoy Disney! How fun!

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 12:54PM
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Oh yeah, the job thing is always fun. BM gets very cranky because DH and I both make more than she does (when she works), and it's just not fair! See, I'm kind of thinking that maybe the reason why we make more is that we've both worked our entire adult lives, we both went to college, we both have spent years working OT, weekends, attending continuing education on our own time and at our expense to get where we are now - all while BM flitted from one part-time minimum wage job to another, with long periods of no employment between them. But of course she doesn't see that - she just sees that we have jobs that pay more than the ones she can get and it's not fair.

"She was sobbing and saying how it made her so sad that we did all the thing she wanted to do with him." And what exactly is stopping her from doing fun things with him? I swear these people have no grasp of cause and effect at all. They want their kids to have happy memories of fun activities with them, except they don't want to go to the effort of planning/participating in fun activities. They want to have great jobs paying lots of money, but they also want to work if/when they choose. They want to be the number one most important person in the world in their kids' lives - but they want someone else to do the day to day work of raising them. They want their kids to be like the light in the refrigerator when the door is shut; turned off and patiently waiting for them to get their act together in case they might decide to actually act like a parent.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 1:11PM
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I have a friend whose brother is the same way with trips....if he can't go that he does not want his child to go either! My friends brother fathered 2 children by 2 different women within 2 months of eachother. One woman had him sign his rights away a year later and let her husband adopt the child. The other woman is still in love with him and uses the 4 year old child as a pawn to try to get him back. Luckily she lets my friend take the child for the weekend often...too bad the reason is so she can go out and party.

My friend is the best aunt ever. She has taken the child to places the child would have never gone with his parents, even simple places like the park, zoo, circus, etc. She has taught him how to play games, count, his letters, swimming, etc.

Well my friend and I had a trip planned to drive to Chicago for a few days with my kids, her kids, and her nephew. The biomom said yes, but my friends brother said no because he was not able to afford to go. He actually told my friend if she was not going to pay for him to go then she could not take his son! And then he preceded to yell at his ex for saying their son could go to Chicago without his consent and started a big fight about it.

So the 4 year old missed out on a fun trip to Chicago because his dad was jealous.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 1:34PM
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hahah Love, she asked what do you do to help out with her son??? hahahahah that's too funny, what did your DH say? hahaha this is stupid, just stupid.

and how dare any of you go to Disney, neither i nor my DD ever been there. it is unfair hahaha

on a serious note some people truly cannot afford vacations nowadays, but that does not mean they shouldn't be happy if their kids get to go with other family members. DD went on trips with her dad, my brothers family, my parents, my XMIl (dad paid) etc and it was happening when i was unable to take any vacations, i was very happy DD got to go. DD went to places and did things I frankly still cannot afford and I make decent money.

some people are just crazy, cant change them, cant divorce them twice LOL

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 2:19PM
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Love, words fail me. Meeting her with a school form is the "least you could do"? No, actually the least you could reasonably do is - nothing. Because, as she so often points out, it's not your child! What gall.

BM didn't seem very concerned as to whether it was "fair" that we had to bring a child on our honeymoon, because of her unreliability. (SS kept telling everyone that "we", as in the three of us, were on "our" honeymoon - it was so cute!)

I just cannot imagine anyone being jealous of a child getting to do something they haven't, or not allowing the child to experience something. How can anyone seriously tell a kid that they can't go if you can't?! Isn't that what grandparents, aunts and uncles are for, to take kids places the parents can't afford?!

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 3:29PM
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I wonder if it would not be best for a while if you did not ask what BM is b^tching about. Not that it is really none of your business (it involves you it IS your business) but instead because it serves to keep your fires fueled.

Really, does it matter what the witch is ranting about and accusing ...if it's not one thing, it will be another, it always is. Just pick a 'thing' out of a hat, any thing, you're a terrible rotten person that does not jump high enough, love her son enough nor correctly blah blah.

Do you really want or need to hear what the latest crap fest is? I'm just thinking that you know it's all BS, you know it's her pushing your/DH's buttons...but in listening to it repeated and repeated kinda just keeps you unnecessarily riled up.

So she called, she she did her usual roar\rant. But then you and DH spend the next following moments rehashing it. Might be better and serve as a more relaxing evening all around if you just strike it up to 'who the h$ll cares what she's whining over now'.

I also rather wonder if DH can't start working at not speaking to her during the calls when she starts in. "I'm sorry, you may call me back when or if you have something of importance to tell me and can do it in a civil manner, until there I'm not listening to this, goodbye".

The witch keeps your household in upset. Take the power of it away from her.

I assume SS got his lunch even if you did not jump. I assume it is not your fault she has chosen to live 30 minutes away from SS's school. Let it roll off, who cares what she says...just don't listen to it and don't ask for it to be repeated to you.

I don't give a rats behind if she has never been to Disney World or anywhere else, let her blame her parents for failing to provide the childhood she thinks she missed out's not your fault and it's not your problem. DH needs to tell her to stop guilt tripping his son.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 4:52PM
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"BM didn't seem very concerned as to whether it was "fair" that we had to bring a child on our honeymoon,"

Shocker, Mattie. :) I am so glad you were a sport about it and had fun with SS, even though it wasn't what you were probably expecting in your first week of marriage! That says a lot about you.

Justmetoo---you are exactly right! That is why I am mad at myself--I had not had ANY contact with BM in, like, 15 months, and I had stopped allowing her stuff to affect me. This latest episode was the first *contact* we've had and it did completely get me riled up. You're right. :) I need to adopt a don't ask, don't tell policy with BM, and I need DH to do it, too.

I REALLY wish he'd stop taking her damn calls.

    Bookmark   August 25, 2010 at 7:21PM
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You just can't reason with crazy.

I think you should print out those emails, go get the R.O. renewed-tell your DH he must explain/confess the lies to the marriage counselor next session then decide how much longer you're going to put up with this.

I certainly would not entertain the idea of him adopting your DD at this time, it just keeps you sucked into a realationship with him when you are trying to decide whether or not you want to be married to him any longer. She is young, she will be fine growing up with a strong mommy.

Think it through, try to detach from the chaos and look at things from an outsiders point of view (difficult!).

Frankly you sounded much happier emotionally when you were seperated and YOU were the one controlling what happened in your life.

The only reason I my marriage is still intact is because I completely removed myself from the dysfunctional chaos and terminated my relationship with DH's adult kids. It's a tough thing to do, but when people are abusing and manipulating you, you have to take your life back.

((Hugs)) I feel for you, I really do..


    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 12:01AM
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We met with our counselor this morning and have a game plan. I feel btter in that I feel *validated* and we have set some ground rules.

DH is going to stop taking BM's incessant calls. We discussed at legnth how intrusive it is, and how he always stops for awhile, but slips right back into it with her and before you know, she's calling multiple times a day.

DH is going to limit their communication to email or text messages from now on, save for the TRUE urgent call.(He has said he would do this before and then he doesn't abide by it, but I think hearing someone else say it was helpful.)

I recognize they DO need to occasionally communicate about SS but the way it's done now is crazy. Just a typical example: tomorrow SS has his first soccer practice after school; he's with us now, so we will be sending him in the morning, but BM will be picking up from practice.

SS needs his cleats, water bottle, guards, etc. DH and BM are BOTH on the email parent roster and both got the email specifiying what the kids need to bring.

BM called DH last night and left him a voicemail reminding him. DH didn't take the call because it was after 10 pm. Then this morning--while we were in session--she called two more times leaving messages about how they NEED to talk so she can make sure he is sending SS with the proper gear.

The counselor explained that BM and DH BOTH need to leave all parenting up to the other parent when SS is with them. BM needs to trust that DH will do what he needs to do as a dad---she knows he has the information--and she does not need to ride his @$$ about it. And the same goes for DH. (But he already does this--he does not bug BM when SS is with her.)

So DH just texted BM back and said "I know, got it handled" and then BM texted back that she STILL needed to talk to him and would he please call her.

It is any excuse to talk.

He is just going to ignore it from now on. If it is a true emergency, she can explain and he can call her back but these stupid messages about how she just HAS to talk to him ASAP need to be ignored.

It really is the sort of thing where he has to TRAIN BM to stop calling so much. She calls incessantly because he eventually answers...and because she can. If he would TRULY limit their conversations to urgent things pertaining to SS (ie--he is sick, problem at schoool, etc) the remainder of stuff CAN and should be handled via email. NO REASON to talk on the phone daily.

The counselor also helped ME articulate my feelings, why it bothered me so much about the car deal. I was able to identify that the BIG reason I was upset is because I feel it makes it out like DH is BM's friend and *I* am the big, bad stepmom who won't get along. Like the two of them are friends and I am the third wheel.

so we talked about how DH and I are a team, and need to have a united front, even when it comes to BM. The first soccer game is coming up and BM sent DH a nasty text a couple days ago about how I better not be anywhere near that game.

We discussed how it is important for SS to see me supporting him in his athletics, school, etc. (I realize some may disagree with this but you have to understand I am responsible for him A LOT; I pick him up from school two or three days a week, I am with him until DH gets home, all day on Saturdays, etc. I am not an EOW stepmom, I am a pretty big parent *figure* in his life and that needs to apply to everything for him. I will not let BM try to drive a wedge in between us. I completely respect that she is his mom---hence, that's why I do not attend parent/teacher conferences, etc. But I need to show SS that I support him and part of that is presence. It's not good for OUR relationship for him to see me constantly going to DD's school events and not his.

So we are to do exactly what we did last year, starting with soccer----DH, DD and I set up our chairs on the opposite side of the field from BM. If BM approaches, it is DH's job to get up, head her off and explain to her that our family is sitting by itself, and for SS's sake the situation needs to be calm.

This worked last year---SS was fine, just skipped up to us after the game for hugs and then skipped off to see BM and her DH and his grandparents. He doesn't need to see everyone sitting together and playing big happy family to know that everyone is there to support him.

All in all it was good. We didn't address the lies too much, other than DH does it with me to avoid a fight, a confrontation. The bigger issue is the lack of boundaries with the ex, and that's what we're working on.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 11:26AM
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"BM called DH last night and left him a voicemail reminding him. DH didn't take the call because it was after 10 pm. Then this morning--while we were in session--she called two more times leaving messages about how they NEED to talk so she can make sure he is sending SS with the proper gear."

Doesn't that make your husband feel that BM has absolutely NO faith in his ability as a parent? We used to get those reminder calls, so I asked DH "does she think you are going to send SD to school barefoot & without lunch?" I mean WTH? Good that was addressed in counseling.

BM also demands that we provide her with info on everything. I would completely understand having to give her info she can't get herself... like what did SD's doctor say during the visit. But, she asked for school info that is available on the school website. Look it up lady, we'd have to look it up to tell her so she can look it up herself. She always calls us when we are on our way to her house to pick up SD... What time are you going to be here? Uh, it's the same time every week! If we are going to be late, DH will let her know. Most of the calls are unnecessary... and it's worse when none of the calls are about things we would agree would be worth discussing, like SD's grades or behavior problems. She doesn't want to discuss those things. Fortunately for me, I don't have to worry about her trying to ban me from SD's activities since she won't bother to come to them.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 12:41PM
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Thanks, Love! I figured I could either sulk that my honeymoon was not what I had expected that it would be, or make the best of the situation being what it was. I had a great time and one of these days DH and I will go on a romantic trip with just the two of us. I can't complain anyway; SS is very proud of his manners and likes to be chivalrous so on my honeymoon I got two "men" to hold the door for me, tell me I looked pretty, and "Ladies first!" Some women, even on their honeymoon, get none!

I'm so glad that you are feeling better. Your counselor sounds great. So is DH just not going to accept any calls, but only return them if the voice mail/text indicates a true emergency? What a messed up woman she sounds like; using their child as an excuse to try to control your DH's life.

And she said you can't come to his soccer games?! So you are fine to be around SS when you have to pick him up from school because she is irresponsible, you should drop everything to rush over some form that SS may or may not need to her, but all the sudden you shouldn't be allowed at his games?! She's out of her mind. I don't know how you keep it together when you've got such a lunatic to deal with.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 12:48PM
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Ima, that is exactly what it's like, all the million little phone calls for this stupid reason or that. I swear, your BM and mine are twins!

And it never seems to end with either of them, does it? Good grief. How old is SD's BM's baby now? I don't get these women---mothers--that have other kids and STILL find the time and mental energy to harrass their exes and their spouses. Good grief.

Mattie, your honeymoon sounds awesome! SS sounds like a sweet little boy :)

"And she said you can't come to his soccer games?!"

Oh my, that is the least of what she has said over the years. My personal favorite was when she said if I came to SS's winter music program, she would claw my eyes out.

Last soccer season was when I had my RO on her, and she had the gall to tell DH that I was to be nowhere near that game; I actually did not go to most of the season, but towards the end, Dh laid some ground rules---FINALLY---with BM and said I was coming, and we sat off to one side of the field by ourselves. I guess BM tried to raise some hell and even her own mother, who was there, told her to chill out.

The woman is just really hot/cold. This is the same woman who allowed ME to take HER son to the Carribbean for spring break by myself--DH did not go. BM said she knew he wanted to go and she trusted me and knew he would be in good hands, so she let him go.

She KNOWS I am a great mother/stepmother, but her wacky control insecure ways surface and make her act INSANE.

I personally think something is going on with her---something deeper, like she went off her medicine, or she's having problems with her DH or they're broke as all get out...SOMETHING is making her act crazy. Who knows-maybe she is drinking again, certainly seems like it.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 1:29PM
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I know this might sound ridiculous, but does BM actually need to have your DH's cell phone number? If there is an emergency, she can leave a message on your house phone. No??? Should there be an emergency at the school, make sure the school has instructions to contact DH on his cell phone. It's just seems like the texts and the calls are an addiction for both of them. I only include your DH because he feels so compelled to answer those calls.

Sometimes I think cell phones and being able to contact anyone at any moment have created a lot of impatient lunatics (not implying DH is one of them). Aside from the obvious family disruption and lies, just think how much these calls and texts interrupt your husbands day. I'm sure there must be a lot nonproductive moments during his work day because of these, and essentially this cuts into money for the family. Get him a new phone number.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 2:16PM
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"Sometimes I think cell phones and being able to contact anyone at any moment have created a lot of impatient lunatics (not implying DH is one of them)."

Totally. My DD was sick at school last year and I got a phone call (on my cell) to pick her up. They said please be here within 30 mins. Now---I obviously was rushing to get her, and didn't need them saying that; BUT it brought me back to MY school days before cell phones.

When I was sick, and the school called my mom, if they couldn't reach her because she was at the grocery store or whatever, I had to lie in the nurse's office until she arrived. It wasn't *expected* that she would be reach-able right away.

Times have certainly changed.

Our *house phone* runs through the computer. BM does have that # and when DH is not home, she calls SS on it. We didn't used to even have a home number, just our cells, and even that was an issue---because since BM didn't have MY number, she moaned and complained that she couldn't get in touch w/SS when DH was at work.

Our home phone through the computer is pretty much just used for that now.

Unfortunately, even if DH were to change his cell #, BM would easily be able to get it---he has a business website where he lists his cars for sale and his cell is on there b/c he needs customers to be able to get in touch.

She'd look his new # up in a heartbeat if he changed it.

But I know what you mean. It is really intrusive.


    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 2:41PM
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"My personal favorite was when she said if I came to SS's winter music program, she would claw my eyes out." I know it's not funny, but I just envisioned someone standing up right in the middle of a nice peaceful music program, shrieking and attacking someone else - like a horror movie when people suddenly go crazy. :)

I think gerina has a great point. Have you looked into Google Voice? Apparently it assigns you a phone number, which DH would then give to BM, and it forwards calls to that number as you specify, so it can ring to a husband and wife's cell phones and the home phone at the same time. More importantly for you, it can also forward calls from specified numbers directly to voice mail! Apparently it also does some spiffy other things like record calls (if you live in a state where it is legal to do so) which could be useful for you if you need to get another restraining order.

BM rarely calls, but when she does, if DH does not immediately answer his mobile phone, she'll call the house phone, then text the mobile, then call it again, then call the house again... it's very annoying when we're in the middle of dinner (we don't answer the phone during dinner) to hear all the phones buzzing, vibrating, beeping and dinging because she cannot wait ten minutes to discuss some totally trivial matter with DH.

(Almost every time when she does call, when DH asks if she wants to talk to SS she says no, she's got to go, but to tell him hi for her. SS knows it's her on the phone; I cannot imagine how he must feel. Last time she spoke with SS on the phone was five months ago.)

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 3:16PM
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That's horrible Mattie. I think I'd start having SS answer the phone. And then have DH be in the bathroom when he's ready to get off so BM can't get on the phone with him :)

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 6:26PM
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If you get your R.O. renewed (& I think you should), I would include DH's cell number on your order of protection. (I would list it as "not contact my cell phone" and specify HIS number on the order. (I would not list the number on the request for the order, but if the order is granted, I would include the specific numbers you do not want her to call... that way she cannot say she didn't know she wasn't allowed to call this number or that number) I assume you both are listed on the contract for your phones, and even if you are not... once there is an order specifying she cannot call that number, she will have to call him on the house phone and I assume he has an office phone that works too. It would eliminate the annoying text messages too.

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 7:13PM
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"(Almost every time when she does call, when DH asks if she wants to talk to SS she says no, she's got to go, but to tell him hi for her. SS knows it's her on the phone; I cannot imagine how he must feel. Last time she spoke with SS on the phone was five months ago.)"

Don't you love how all these quacks have different MOs? SS's BM, I will give her a credit, does care immensely about SS. (Although I feel she puts him in the middle and uses him as a pawn...but she does care about him, I think her actions are sometimes out of immaturity and ignorance.) But our problem with her talking to him is the opposite: just yesterday, for example, I picked DD and SS up from school, and we went to the pool for a couple hours. Got home and had FOUR missed calls on the home line--all from BM. Four calls from 3:30-5:30. Sigh.

In addition, she had also called DH on his cell at work a few times, too.

So I dialed her # and handed SS the phone. I was in the kitchen cooking dinner and as soon as he got on the phone, I could hear his answers:

"Sorry, Mom...we went to the pool."

"I know, I'm sorry."

"Mom, there wasn't a phone at the pool."

This is just how she is. It's ridiculous.

Then she called again to say goodnight to him at 8 pm---and that was a good night!

But I have to say--I think your SS's BM's lack of caring for her son is worse. :( How sad for him. Does he seem bothered by it or is he just loved at your house, and it doesn't much phase him? How long have you been in his life?

    Bookmark   August 26, 2010 at 7:16PM
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I think SS is confused and torn. I've been with DH for several years so SS barely remembers life before me (just random memories of things like kids have). It's hard for him because he knows what a Mom is, and what a Mom does, and how she behaves. But then he sees someone who has the title of "Mom" who doesn't act that way at all, while I do.

It was never my intention to be Mom figure in the beginning; SS was the one who kept trying to put me into it. My choices seemed to be to either refuse to do so out of deference to an absentee mother, or to try to be the best pseudo-mom/custodial step-mom/whatever that I can be.

Given the circumstances, (DH has had custody of SS since he was a year old or so, and the 90 minute travel distance), it would be really tough for BM to have formed/maintained a close relationship even if everyone involved was very committed and outstanding parents, I'd think. At this point, he doesn't seem to have any real bond with her, and I don't see much chance of one being formed without extensive effort (including family counseling for BM and SS) and I just don't see that happening. BM's attitude seems to be that she deserves SS' love and admiration because she is his egg donor, sorry, I mean mother, and so he should be the one to change, not her.

So he's left in this situation where he knows that she's a poor excuse for a mother, yet she (and the courts) insist that because she is his mother, her behavior, by default, is perfectly fine. And we cannot talk to him about it; God forbid we'd agree with him (out loud) when he says that she doesn't want him there but makes him go, or that she's a liar, or any other charming sentiments. (He is in counseling so presumably he is talking to the counselor about it.)

So no, he is very pragmatic about it. He's never known her to behave any differently so he does not seem to even expect that she might want to talk to him on the phone, or show up for one of his events, or go to the doctor when he is sick, or anything else.

I wish she'd just go away. I honestly do not see this situation getting any better. I wish that SS wasn't being made to feel that he was obligated to love and care for someone who does not seem to love and care for him.

Sorry, I've gone completely off-topic. It's been a rough summer. :(

    Bookmark   August 27, 2010 at 10:42AM
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