Replacement Window Help

apbnashMarch 29, 2011

Ok, I know that there have been several threads already on replacement windows but I wanted to give the specifics of my situation.

We live in a 16 year old home in the Nashville, TN area so a relatively mild climate, although we can get a bit of snow in the winter and it gets HOT in the summer. The sun rises on the front of our house and so those windows in particular take a lot of abuse as there is basically no shade. We have lived here for 10.5 years now and for at least the last 8.5 years have constantly been in a state of upkeep in regards to our windows. For the most part, they are the original builder grade, all wood windows. I admit that we are not do it yourselfers so we have been paying a painter/carpenter to caulk, paint and repair our windows as needed over the years. Our carpenter has replaced, piece-meal, a lot of our window sills and has even wrapped some of the glass in vinyl frames where warranted. We have done all of this as opposed to just replacing them with all new vinyl windows, as some of our neighbors have been doing. But, some of the seals have recently gone bad in our windows now and moisture is getting between the two panes of glass. And, we have a newly discovered dry rot situation where the glass has separated from the frame. We really have tried to keep our windows well maintained but I just feel like ultimately this is a losing battle.

So, I had our trusty painter/carpenter out today and he really feels like we are at the point of replacement for several of our windows and he really does not want to get into that. I am obviously frustrated as we have probably spent $6,000 to $7,000 over the last 8 + years to keep our existing windows maintained. Hindsight being 20/20 maybe we should have just replaced them all years ago when they first started into this vicious cycle of peeling paint and rotting wood.

So, now we are in the situation of needing to look at replacing our windows to stop the financial bleeding of the constant maintenance and repair of these wood windows. I am pretty much adamant about wanting wood on the inside as I feel it could lower the property value/appearance to have all vinyl windows. Our house is probably worth about $400,000 ish in the current depressed real estate market and we do live in one of the more affluent suburbs of Nashville so I am trying to have my updates in keeping with what potential buyers will expect in the future for a home in this area. However, I am interested in low maintenance and so I would like the windows to be vinyl or aluminum clad on the exterior. I gather that this exterior vinyl can be painted to match the house trim as we have tan gutters, garage doors, etc?? I am not at all opposed to replacing a few windows at a time to spread out the cost but would want them to all match, color wise so that it would not be obvious that we had some old and some new.

From what I have read on here, Marvin has the best reputation but they can be costly and do they even make vinyl clad wood or is it only Andersen? I DO NOT want wood on the exterior as that is what got me into this mess in the first place and I do not feel that exterior vinyl is an issue in terms of looks and home resale value. Also aware that fiberglass is an option and we have a fiberglass front door that looks just like wood. But, I am hearing that fiberglass is very pricey and that vinyl is really as good.

I do not so much care about how energy efficient they are because I figure no matter what we get they will be an improvement over what we currently have. Our house is approx. 3500 sq. feet but fortunately has no windows on either end of the house. On the front, we have 6 standard sized windows which open and two large windows with sidelights and transom(one in foyer and one in bonus room) that do not open. These are all on the front of the house. On the back of the house we have three small fixed windows in bathrooms and laundry room, one of which has already been replaced with all vinyl, which again I would not want anywhere else for aesthetic reasons. In addition, there is 1 standard size window which opens, 2 large opening double windows in the den and a fairly large bay window in our kitchen, which contains one fixed window in the middle and two smaller functional windows on the sides. The windows on the front of the house are in the worst shape and would need to be replaced first.

I do not want to spend an arm and a leg but do not want to ever have to replace these windows again. We look to be in this house another 5 years but that could be longer, you never know, and I don't want to leave the next person with a bad situation so I really do want good windows which will last long term. I want to also put windows in which are appropriate to the value of our home. We are not in a million dollar property but we are also in an area which contains lots of pricey homes which we will be competing with in the real estate market at some point.

So, please give me your opinions. No sales pitch or spam - just honest advice about what you would do considering all the facts I've provided. If I have left something out then please let me know and I'll answer as best I can.

Thanks in advance and sorry for the lengthiness!


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I meant to say that we have 8 standard size windows on the front of our house, not 6.

    Bookmark   March 29, 2011 at 2:40PM
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Oops, I meant 10 standard sized windows on the front, NOT 8 or 6!

    Bookmark   March 29, 2011 at 3:19PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

Exterior vinyl cladding cannot be painted.

Marvin exterior cladding on their wood window is an extruded aluminum that is factory pre-finished. You do not want to choose a window that is going to require painting. Get the window in the color that you want and get a factory color.

Fiberglass windows do not have the grain on the exterior that you see commonly on fiberglass doors. You can get fiberglass windows that have either a real wood interior or a faux wood interior laminate.

Fiberglass is going to be more expensive than vinyl by comparison.

I would encourage you to look at all of the materials in question and figure out what looks good to you. Premium materials in all of the above categories look great. It just depends on what looks good to you.

    Bookmark   March 29, 2011 at 9:55PM
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I have a Marvin rep coming over on Thursday to give some pricing. I talked to her on the phone today for awhile and I gather from what she said they prefer to do a full replacement as opposed to just an insert. Considering my husband and I feel like nearly all of our window frames have at least a little dry rot that is probably wise. She indicated that the full replacements would cost between $1,000 to $1,200 installed for a standard sized double hung window. I am guessing she was referring to the Ultimate. Does that price sound reasonable??

A question about the Ultimates versus Integrity. We will need to choose a tan to match our existing gutters, etc. So, would the tan colors for the Ultimate match the Integrity or would they differ? I'm asking because I was wondering about the possibility of doing some of both Integrity and Ultimate, depending on the location. Or, I may go all the way with Integrity. Do they look the same or can you tell the difference between the Aluminum clad and Fiberglass? They are both wood on the inside from what I understand which is very important to me. Due to the fact that we've already spent thousands maintaining our all wood windows and the fact that Marvin is pricey we will only be replacing a few windows at a time. The rep said that she has lots of people doing that so she does not have a problem with it and I know is not going to hard sell me on doing a complete replacement of all windows at once. I'm strongly leaning towards Marvin due to the opinions both on this board and also on the fact they are the top rated windows according to consumer reports. We've had so much trouble with our windows that something completely maintenance free (except for caulking I suppose) sounds wonderful and I don't ever want to have to replace the windows again. Andersen would be my second choice but we don't have a Renewal by Andersen dealer here locally and the only dealers I could find for Andersen were the big box stores such as Home Depot and another large locally owned sash and door store that carries multiple brands. I like that Marvin has a dedicated Marvin showroom and a rep who can come out and price. And, she worked for Andersen prior to that for 14 years so she knows both companies well.

Is there an advantage to aluminum clad versus vinyl? I understand that Marvin used to have vinyl clad but had lots of issues and switched to aluminum. Also, what is the opinion on the Infinity windows? I gather they are replacement only and are either all fiberglass or fiberglass exterior with a wood laminate on the inside.

Sorry for so many questions but as I said I am only doing this once and need to get it right the first time. So tired of spending $$ on windows. I feel I might as well be throwing it out the window, no pun intended, lol!

Thanks for your response Windows!!

    Bookmark   March 29, 2011 at 11:48PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

The $1,000 to $1,200 is probably for the Integrity as the Ultimate is not cheap.

The color offerings for the Integrity should be consistent with the Ultimate but the Ultimate will have more options.

There will be differences in the exterior projection on the two windows but the finishes will look similar.

I prefer the aluminum cladding (extruded not roll formed) because of its ability to have more colors and hold the color. Vinyl is not as paint friendly and you must use very specific paints and procedures to make it work.

I think you need to go to a Marvin Window and Door Showplace to take a look.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2011 at 11:08AM
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Thanks WOW for your reply!

I am pretty sure she was quoting Ultimate prices since that is primarily what she is trying to sell me. $1,000 to $1,200 per window sounds steep enough. That was the pricing for a complete window replacement though, not just the inserts. She said the inserts would be around $800 each. I cannot imagine it being much higher....

If I like what I see and hear tomorrow then I do plan to visit a Marvin showroom to take a look at their window display. I'm not in a huge rush so am just taking this slow so that I make a good decision. We will for sure be doing this in phases as it's way too expensive to do the entire house at once with as many windows as we have, approx. 22, some of them large.

Are you saying you prefer the aluminum clad to the fiberglass or just when compared to vinyl clad? I am very open to a fiberglass option, especially if it will save money, if they have a color that will match our existing tan gutters, garage door, etc. But, for our larger windows the fiberglass may not be an option, depending on the selection they have available so we might have to mix and match. That's why I was wondering if it would look odd to have both the Ultimate and Integrity on the same house but in different locations. I would think if the color matched one would not really notice a difference. Thoughts???

    Bookmark   March 30, 2011 at 12:26PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

I prefer the aluminum over vinyl.

Fiberglass is plenty strong for larger openings. Marvin will not make a window if it will not be rated for its size. No manufacturer will do that for that matter.

I think you are going to want to choose one window and stay with that throughout.

Infinity may be a good option as well if you are going with pocket inserts vs. full tear outs.

There is nothing wrong with an insert window if done properly. It will likely be your least expensive option and when properly wrapped on the exterior, will give you just a clean and maintenance free a look.

    Bookmark   March 30, 2011 at 1:17PM
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I had the Marvin rep out today and was very impressed. She brought along a sample of an Ultimate Clad Double Hung window. She really feels like the Ultimate is the best choice for our needs as opposed to the Integrity or Infinity. She says the Integrity does not come with a brick moulding so we would have to get a separate piece from another source since we will be doing a complete replacement. She also was very honest about Marvin being a high end, more expensive window and that if we were only going to be in our house another 5 to 10 years, we may not get the full value out of the cost of the windows. She was also not only open to but also suggesting that we replace our windows only on an as needed basis rather than replacing the entire house at once. I so appreciated her honesty and the fact that she was not pushy. She has 20 years of experience in selling windows so was also able to compare the other major window companies without it feeling like she was bashing them. She was with Andersen for 14 years before Marvin and still maintains that they are a good product and that I should get quotes from them and Pella. I found that refreshing, although it is tempting to just go with Marvin because in my mind they are the one to beat. I do not have a firm quote yet but she has maintained the standard double hungs would be around $1,000 per window. We don't currently have grills and so would maintain that plainer look going forward, especially since we would only replace a few at a time. This also saves some on cost as the grills are more pricey. We have lived here for over a decade and so I am used to the plainer look and might have trouble getting used to something different. We would also go with the standard hardware. Probably satin finish.

I hate wasting anyone's time but perhaps I should have Pella and Andersen come out just for comparison sake. We don't have an exclusive Andersen dealer in the Nashville area though and don't have Renewal by Andersen at all. Some on this board have actually received a lower quote from Marvin so maybe it could happen that they will be the cheapest of the three. That would be wonderful and make my decision so much easier.

Thoughts anyone?

    Bookmark   March 31, 2011 at 2:59PM
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Renewal by Andersen is a replacement type window so I don't believe and their sales pitch is very high pressure and Pella is marginal at best so I would stay away from both of those.

    Bookmark   March 31, 2011 at 7:22PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

Renewal by Anderson is a Fibrex composite window (70% vinyl and 30% wood material). It is a high pressure sell and does not look as good as the Infinity in my opinion.

Why are you doing full tear outs again?

If you are going wood, the Marvin is your best bet.

    Bookmark   March 31, 2011 at 11:17PM
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We are doing full tear outs because we have repeatedly had a problem with rot in sections of the majority of our windows. Some of them have even leaked as a result, despite our diligence with painting and caulking, every few years. Our house faces East and so the rising sun falls on the front of our house. We have no large trees to offer shade in the front or rear yard so there is a lot of exposure all the way around. We are just afraid that if we don't do complete replacements we will regret it down the road. My husband feels that all of our window frames have some degree of rot. Plus, if we went with the inserts the Marvin rep said we would still have our exterior wood trim and sills which would still need to be maintained. That alone is enough of a reason in my book. With 24 window openings that is a lot to keep up with year in and year out. We really feel like whatever window we end up going with a complete replacement is the safest option. Really, the inserts are not that much less and you would make up the difference in no time with the additional maintenance required on the original trim that would remain. I'm really looking for virtually maintenance free here. Do not mind wood on the inside though since it is very seldom that one has to repaint the interior. So, those in a nutshell are our reasons for opting for a complete replacement.

    Bookmark   April 1, 2011 at 9:13PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

I assure you that rot is not a problem that is not addressed in a standard "Pocket/Insert" replacement. A good insert window should be just as maintenance free over its lifetime as well.

Sill rot is very common and can be easily addressed and repair on a more surgical level during and insert installation. You also have the added expense of all new interior trim with a full tear out.

If the rot is consistent and extensive, the repair of that opening can be more expensive than a full tear out in some cases.

With a full tear out, you should be installing that new construction window with a full perimeter nailing flange and it should be properly flashed and taped.

What is the exterior of the home? If it is brick, would be hesitant on the full tear out methodology because you will not be able to put in a proper nailing flange and tape/flash.

I don't want to appear as if I am anti-full tear out. I am not and we do quite a few of them. I just want to make sure you understand the benefits and shortcomings of both installation methods and that sill rot does not automatically necessitate a full tear out.

An insert Infinity might serve your purposes just as well and for less money.

    Bookmark   April 2, 2011 at 9:12AM
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The Marvin rep said that the interior trim is very carefully removed and will be replaced after the window is installed. We have plantation shutters on a good number of our windows but they are attached to our interior trim and not the window itself.

Yes, our home is brick. We have not only had sill rot (the most common) but also the trim around some of the windows rotting themselves. We have fogged glass in a couple of our windows. I'm not trying to overdo it on the windows but I feel pretty confident that the majority of our window frames have at least some rot and either we will end up paying way more down the road because we covered up rot/dry rot or will end up getting into more cost and extensive patching if trying to go the insert route. I don't want to order inserts only to find out during installation that it really would have been better for us to go the full replacement route. We have really tried to keep up with our maintenance and while we don't get the brutal winters of the North we can have brutal summers and also quite a bit of precipitation. The wood used in most windows around here is soft pine and it's just made to fail eventually. Your statement about the repair of the opening being more costly than a full tearout is exactly the reason I think we need to do a complete replacement. In trying to save $ I have a feeling we would pay more.

The Marvin rep really strongly suggested total replacement. She said that inserts are more a bandaid approach considering the problems we have had. And, I don't think she was saying that just to sell us the more expensive option. She was very honest in saying that she does not have Marvin windows in her $150,000 home because she would never get her money back and even told us that we should only replace a few windows at a time because the majority of them don't look that bad. Again, this is because we have kept them fairly well maintained. She even went so far as to say that if we were only going to be here another 5 to 10 years that we may not get the money back out of what we have spent on the new windows. That honesty I greatly appreciate.

But, it does concern me that some of what you are saying is the polar opposite of what she has been telling me. I will ask her about your comment regarding full replacement not working well with brick. She told me the opposite. She said that inserts would not work well with brick because there is no brick moulding on the integrity and we would have to get it from another source and you also lose quite a bit of glass with the inserts. I do think she knows her stuff because she has been selling windows for 20 years but I am sure you know your facts too. Could it be regional or installation differences? It may not be standard to reuse the interior trim where you are but I am positive she said that we would reuse the trim because she mentioned they might need to be painted again to cover up some nail holes although she said they try to put them in the same places. No biggie on the painting cause we have never repainted our window trim on the majority of our windows and we are going to have to have the interior of the window painted anyway and I would want it all to match, color wise and freshness wise too.

I am really not trying to go overboard on the replacement but we have been burned before by rot/dry rot and I just want to do this right the first time and basically have no maintenance except for the occasional caulking.

    Bookmark   April 2, 2011 at 2:45PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

The issue with a full tear out in brick is that you are not going to be setting the new window with a nailing flange and therefore not replace the water drainage assembly.

The nailing flange is an integral component to the water management around the window. The fact that you have brick is less problematic as compared to a home with siding but still a concern.

We don't even pull the frame on commercial block wall buildings because of the potential issues with drainage in some applications.

Inserts are not a band-aid approach. Despite her experience, she is incorrect, respectfully.

Trim rot is totally normal.

If you are happy with the company and product, I would say proceed as normal.

    Bookmark   April 2, 2011 at 8:18PM
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So WOW, are you saying that we would actually make our problems worse if we did a complete replacement, as opposed to the inserts? And, that we would still have our existing sills and exterior trim? That is the part that I really don't like about inserts. We would have pricey inserts and then still have the exterior maintenance issues. Is what she said about not having the brick moulding with inserts not accurate?

I will ask her about this nail/flange issue on Monday and let you know of her reply. I have not been on the window forum before so WOW what is your background? Installer, sales or some of both? Or is it in construction? Just curious in case she asks.

Overall, you prefer the aluminum clad inserts I gather? What about the fact you lose some glass doing it that way? I just still don't like the idea of having maintenance on the exterior. Ugh, sorta confused about what to do...


    Bookmark   April 2, 2011 at 8:53PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

Sills and trim would come out with a full tear out. You are ripping the window out to the stud and installing to the stud.

In an insert, you are installing into the wood buck frame of the old wood window.

Inserts are almost always capped as part of a standard installation and the exterior trim, once repaired, is wrapped with an aluminum coil to compliment the trim color or color of customer choosing.

You could replace every piece of trim and the sill with an azek or similar PVC composite material that will never rot. That is probably overkill as the aluminum trim coil wrapping on a standard installation protects the exterior quite well if done properly.

My background is all of the above.

What I prefer as the insert depends entirely on what the customer prefers. Most customers prefer some sort of maintenance free exterior whether it is aluminum clad, fiberglass, vinyl, composite, vinyl clad, etc.

A standard insert application will be maintenance free when completed.

Glass loss depends on what you are going from and what you are going to. In some cases, Marvin Infinity installations yield the customer more glass than before.

    Bookmark   April 2, 2011 at 11:50PM
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I'm curious who this "Marvin rep'" that you are talking to is? I didn't think Marvin installed windows - does she really work for Marvin? Or is she from a distributor (like a lumber yard) that has a crew that installs windows? Or are they subcontracting the installation?

I would take a look at Andersen - it's always good to have alternatives to compare. This will also let you get another opinion on the installation method. When I was replacing windows I liked the Marvin Ultimate the best but went with Andersen Woodwright because they were considerably less expensive and still seemed to be well designed/constructed. You are probably going to get a better choice of exterior factory colors with the Ultimates. I would NOT use Renewal by Andersen.

I didn't really like the Pella windows so I never got a quote from them. I don't know if Pella has their own crews or if they subcontract. They did have a fancy showroom and fancy salespeople :-) .

I would also get another opinion on new construction vs. insert windows. You can still replace damaged exterior trim with the inserts - but you won't have to redo the interior trim. But I don't know much about windows in brick construction.

    Bookmark   April 3, 2011 at 9:40AM
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The Marvin rep works for Dale, Inc. but the only windows and doors they sell are Marvin. I suppose there is some variety in the methods they use for install as I know that with a complete tear out this company reuses the old interior trim.

I do plan to get a quote on Andersen 400's, although we don't have a dedicated Andersen dealer in Nashville. They are sold at either Home Depot or window/door companies that represent multiple lines. The Consumer Reports article actually recommended the Andersen 400's over Marvin, I suppose because they were priced better. Are the 400's the same as Woodright series? What are they made of?? The Marvin Ultimates were rated #1 and Integrity #2 but Andersen wasn't far behind. I'm sorta partial to aluminum clad though and I think that Andersen is Vinyl clad. With as much sun exposure as we get I feel like the color will fade pretty quickly.

The Infinity's are replacement inserts only right? Are they fiberglass or aluminum clad? Must be wood inside as I don't care for the look of interior vinyl. Also, I wonder if they have a lot of color choices. Ultimate cashmere matches almost perfectly with our existing gutters. We have all wood currently (except for where rotted places have been replaced with vinyl) and I feel it would be a step down to go for all vinyl and I have heard it can be harder to paint and I would want my interior trim and window to all be one color. The two tone look would not be appealing.

I am supposed to be getting my Marvin estimate tomorrow and I plan to bring up the issues presented above about doing a total replacement. I still really lean that way because I am afraid to be wrapping something which could potentially rot down the road. But, I also don't want to make my windows more vulnerable to water damage because I did a complete replacement. So hard to know what to do. We are only doing a few at a time so it's not like we are about the redo our entire home. But, once we start I'm sure we'll want to stick with the same window so that it all looks the same.

    Bookmark   April 3, 2011 at 1:51PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

Infinity is all Ultrex (Fiberglass interior and exterior) with an optional wood (Everwood) interior laminate.

The Ultrex interior on the Infinity is miles away from looking like a vinyl interior. The mitre construction makes the window look very wood like.

The color in the Infinity is not a paint in the classically thought of form. It is a cohesive acrylic coating.

If the insert and capping methodology of installation is going to allow the window to rot, there are going to be millions of upset customers over the next 10 years.

Nothing about full tear out means that you window trim is less likely to rot than a properly done insert window.

Here is a link that might be useful: Infinity Colors

    Bookmark   April 3, 2011 at 4:30PM
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But, does a full tear out mean the new window will be more likely to rot as opposed to just an insert? That is ultimately the question. Thoughts??

    Bookmark   April 3, 2011 at 10:11PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

The two have nothing to do with each other.

Your full tear out will be clad and that is going to be very protected from rot. The brick moulding on the exterior can just as easily rot as it does not unless they used a synthetic.

An insert will also clad the exterior wood around the opening and protect it as well.

    Bookmark   April 4, 2011 at 1:42AM
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Got my estimate from Marvin today. $20,000 on the windows, nearly $2,000 on tax and $10,000 on labor. This is for 24 openings, most of them standard double hung (no grills) and the rest of them either smaller or larger than standard. We have 4 customer circular windows too and 4 sidelites included in that pricing. This price is for complete tear outs on the Marvin Ultimate Wood Clad windows. Sound reasonable? $32,000 for the entire house sounds high (I was expecting no more than $25,000). Will get pricing from Andersen too.

    Bookmark   April 4, 2011 at 4:41PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

That is about normal pricing for the Ultimate as I referenced in an early post. I have not seen them sold for $1,000-$1,200 before.

An Infinity insert job would likely be between $18,000-$22,000 based on their math.

    Bookmark   April 5, 2011 at 8:36AM
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I talked to the Marvin rep today about other, less pricey options. The Integrity windows will not work for me since they do not come with brick moulding and they are for new construction. The Infinity windows could work but she priced them on the phone and they would actually be more expensive because they are custom sizes. If we went with Infinity inserts it would save a little bit of money per window but the additional that we would spend to have our existing exterior wrapped would almost make up the difference.

She has quoted me the labor prices for their best installer if I pay him direct, which would save us quite a bit on the labor costs. $225 for singles, $400 for twins and $500 for triples. That sound reasonable for complete tear outs??

I am getting a quote from Andersen on the 400 woodright but probably won't have it til the end of the week. They are much more limited on color choices though so that may be a deal breaker. Just wanted another price on a similar quality window for comparison sake.

So, I feel like if I go with Marvin I will end up having to do the Ultimate. She did quote me contractor pricing on the windows. That is probably why they seem cheaper to you than usual. With labor they end up being $1,000 to $1,200 per window.

She is very low pressure and encouraging us to do this in phases to spread out the cost.

I sort of have a feeling we will end up going with Marvin cause I do feel they are the very best windows and will offer us more color options to match our existing gutters and trim.

    Bookmark   April 5, 2011 at 10:51AM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

There is no "custom" upcharge for Infinity windows. They are intended for the replacement market and therefore are made to any size required. The difference in installation work required between a full tear out and an insert is significant by comparison and is not zeroed out by capping.

I think you are missing my point. If you are doing a full tear out, it should be new construction. If not, you are going to disturb the original flashing and water management detail that was installed (connection between the window and the exterior sheathing of the home), you need to put that back.

If you are doing this in a brick opening, you cannot re-flash the opening properly or at all. It is not as critical on a brick opening but water most certainly does get behind brick. If you have a leak at an upper window, it is going to come into the lower window.

I am not trying to sell you against the person that you have dealt with at the Marvin dealer, but I am trying to explain the facts of the installation methodology you are intending on choosing.

So your quote just dropped nearly 18% ($6,000) and that does not bother you? Who warrants the work now that the installer is doing it and you are paying them directly? What if there is a problem, who do you call?

If you are happy with the company and product, I think you should move forward. I just wanted to make sure that your decisions were based on facts and there were some gaps in your posts and what you were being told.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2011 at 12:06AM
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Ok, I think I am definitely confused. Isn't a full tear out basically a new construction window?

With paying the installer directly we would lose the 1 year warranty from Dale on the installation work. It would not affect the warranties from Marvin on the windows themselves. She was saying that this installer is the best one (better than the ones at Dale) and she is using him on her own home. He has worked with them for a long time and there have not been any problems with his work. The quote dropped by $4,000, not $6,000. It would be $6,000 to install the windows versus $10,000.

I don't know that she meant there was an upcharge for Infinity. She just meant that our windows were custom sizes according to Infinity. A Ultimate double hung is $602 and the Infinity is more closer to $700. That is for a full tear out. It would of course be less for inserts but then with the wrap and cap it would end up making up some of the difference.

She has offered to bring the installer out here to meet us and discuss this all in greater detail so I don't believe that she is trying to do anything underhanded here. I might have the installer out after I get a quote from Andersen and decide how I'm going to proceed.

I for sure don't understand all the mechanics of window installation. It would be much easier for me to understand if I could see drawings.

If I am not worse off doing a full replacement then that is definitely my preference. Especially since it does not sound like it will be more expensive in the end.

Oh, and just yesterday I was in my daughter's room and noticed that on one side of her window, the wallpaper was pulling away a bit from the interior window sill trim. I felt of it and it was a bit squishy. This wasn't even one of the windows we were concerned about. It's an upper window right under an overhang so should be fairly well protected. There is just no telling what is behind that window frame. We have had that with several of our windows. I just don't feel comfortable wrapping these and covering them up. I think I would regret that in the long run....

    Bookmark   April 6, 2011 at 4:00PM
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Windows on Washington Ltd

No, new construction does not me full tear out. You reference this in the post April 5th that the Integrity won't work for your application because it is "new construction"

New Construction = Nailing fin

Full Tear out does not mean nailing fin. It just means that the frame is coming out.

There is no "custom" size Infinity as they are price according to UI (united inch) and not specific size. They are intended for the replacement market. If her pricing is higher on the Infinity, that is not correct. The Infinity does not approach the cost of the Ultimate.

I used the pricing you quote in the previous threat at $1,000 to $1,200 and split the difference at $1,100. That equals a project total that is $5,600 less than your $32,000 quote or 17.5% drop.

I just said that if you installer does not take special care to not disturb the existing window flashing, you may, in fact, be worse off with a full tear out.

If a window is leaking at the head, you need to look at the windows above it and and the roof.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2011 at 5:06PM
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Our roof was replaced 2.5 years ago and we have had not problems with it since that time. We did have roof issues prior that that though. The window in my daughter's room has no windows above it. Just the overhang from the roof. I have no idea how long it has been like that. Our all wood windows have been nothing but trouble. I have no idea why people are still using them. Most of our neighbors are replacing with all vinyl inserts. I don't care for the look of them personally, although I am sure they are much cheaper than wood clad.

She was pricing the Infinity using their computer system. I'll try and copy and paste my original Ultimate quote. The Infinity was a couple hundred less if it were an insert. Maybe though she was not quoting me contractor pricing on the Infinity series. That could explain the higher price.

If/when I meet with the installer I will address the issue about the flashing not being disturbed. Still need to get pricing from Andersen for comparison.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2011 at 9:48PM
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Manufacturer: Marvin Windows & Doors
Product Line: Aluminum Clad
Glass: Low E With Argon
Grille/Divided Lite Bar Type: None
Interior Finish: Primed
Exterior Finish: Cashmere Aluminum Clad
Interior Casing: re-use existing
Exterior Casing: Aluminum Clad Brick Mould
Jamb Depth: 4-9/16"
Screen: None
Window Hardware: Satin Taupe
Page 1 of 5
Item#: 1 Location: FRONT WINDOWS Qty: 10 Unit Price: $601.92 Total: $6,019.20
Manufacturer: Marvin; Clad ultimate double hung; Call number: 2834; Rough opening: 34 3/8" x 76 7/8";
Insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with argon gas; Satin taupe sash lock; Nailing fin; 4 9/16" jamb
depth; Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick mould casing.
Item#: 2 Location: REAR TWINS Qty: 2 Unit Price: $1,005.18 Total: $2,010.36
A1 A2
Manufacturer: Marvin; Rough opening: 67 3/4" x 64 7/8" � 2 wide x 1 high multiple unit; Nailing
fin; 4 9/16" jamb depth; Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick mould
Windows A1-A2
Clad ultimate double hung; Call number: 2828; Insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with
argon gas; Satin taupe sash lock.
Item#: 3 Location: GIRLS ROOMS Qty: 2 Unit Price: $541.86 Total: $1,083.72
Manufacturer: Marvin; Clad ultimate double hung; Call number: 2828; Rough opening: 34 3/8" x 64 7/8";
Insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with argon gas; Satin taupe sash lock; Nailing fin; 4 9/16" jamb
depth; Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick mould casing.
Item#: 4 Location: LAUNDRY & BATH Qty: 2 Unit Price: $422.40 Total: $844.80
Manufacturer: Marvin; Clad ultimate double hung; Call number: 2816; Rough opening: 34 3/8" x 40 7/8";
Insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with argon gas; Satin taupe sash lock; Nailing fin; 4 9/16" jamb
depth; Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick mould casing.
1/4" = 1' 0" - All drawings are exterior views.
Page 2 of 5
Item#: 5 Location: KITCHEN BAY SIDES Qty: 2 Unit Price: $490.38 Total: $980.76
Manufacturer: Marvin; Clad ultimate double hung; Call number: 2028; Rough opening: 26 3/8" x 64 7/8";
Insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with argon gas; Satin taupe sash lock; Nailing fin; 4 9/16" jamb depth;
Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick mould casing.
Item#: 6 Location: KITCHEN BAY CENTER Qty: 1 Total: $941.16
Manufacturer: Marvin; Clad ultimate double hung picture window; Call number: 6062; Rough
opening: 62 3/8" x 64 7/8"; 1" insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with argon gas; Nailing fin; 4
9/16" jamb depth; Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick mould casing.
Item#: 7 Location: REC ROOM Qty: 2 Unit Price: $1,143.78 Total: $2,287.56
Manufacturer: Marvin; Rough opening: 34 3/8" x 73 9/16" � 1 wide x 2 high multiple unit; Nailing fin; 4
9/16" jamb depth; Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick mould casing; No interior
Window A1
Clad round top #1 (half circle) � direct glazed; Call number: 3316; 1" insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II
glass with argon gas.
Window B1
Clad ultimate double hung; Call number: 2824; Insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with argon gas;
Satin taupe sash lock.
Item#: 8 Location: REC RM & ABOVE FRONT DOOR Qty: 2 Unit Price: $2,601.72 Total: $5,203.44
Manufacturer: Marvin; Rough opening: 65 3/8" x 75 9/16" � 3 wide x 2 high multiple unit;
Nailing fin; 4 9/16" jamb depth; Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick
mould casing; No interior casing.
Window A2
Clad round top #1 (half circle) � direct glazed; Call number: 3718; 1" insulated glass � 1 lite;
Low E II glass with argon gas.
Windows B1, B3
Clad ultimate double hung picture window; Rough opening: 14 1/2" x 56 7/8"; Standard call
number: 54 (height); 1" insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with argon gas.
Window B2
Clad ultimate double hung; Call number: 3224; Insulated glass � 1 lite; Low E II glass with
argon gas; Satin taupe sash lock.
1/4" = 1' 0" - All drawings are exterior views.
Page 3 of 5
Item#: 8 Location: REC RM & ABOVE FRONT DOOR Qty: 2 Unit Price: $2,601.72 Total: $5,203.44
Assembly exceeds size limitations. Contact your marvin representative for availability and possible
additional pricing.
Item#: 9 Location: MASTER BATH ABOVE TUB Qty: 1 Total: $817.08
Manufacturer: Marvin; Clad ultimate double hung picture window; Call number: 4042; Rough opening:
42 3/8" x 44 7/8"; 1" insulated glass � 1 lite; Tempered low E II glass with argon; Nailing fin; 4 9/16"
jamb depth; Primed pine interior; Cashmere clad exterior; 1 5/16 clad brick mould casing.
Item#: 10 Location: CAULK Qty: 15 Unit Price: $15.84 Total: $237.60
11407200 silicone tube � cashmere.
Total Material $20,425.68
Sub Total $20,425.68
Sales Tax (9.25%) $1,889.38
Total Labor Cost $10,157.00
Total Installation, Material And Tax As Specified Above: $32,472.06
Payment schedule terms
$16,236.03 upon acceptance
$16,236.03 upon completion
Terms and Conditions:
The undersigned hereby agree(s) that this order is correct and final and CANNOT BE
AGREEMENTS ARE NOT VALID. Shortages, damage or discrepancies must be reported within 5
days of delivery. Dale, Inc. is hereby authorized to inquire with a credit bureau or any trade
references. Customer(s) personally and corporately guarantees payment. Purchaser(s) agrees to
pay for materials stored, ordered or delivered under terms established by Seller and, in no event,
withhold payment greater than the amount of backordered items. Purchaser(s) agrees to pay a
late payment charge of 1-1/2% per month on past due amounts and all reasonable attorney's
fees and/or collection agency fees related to collection. Purchaser(s) hereby waives any claims
against Seller for incidental, consequential liquidated or delay damages. Only Manufacturer's
written warranties apply. Glass cleaning and protection from mortar, etc., are not Seller's
responsibility. Terms are net 10th prox. on purchasers with approved credit. Otherwise terms are
cash on delivery.
1/4" = 1' 0" - All drawings are exterior views.
Page 4 of 5
Marvin products carry a 20 year warranty on insulating glass. Marvin products are additionally
warranted to be free from defects in manufacturing, materials, and workmanship for a period of 10
years from the original date of purchase. Please refer to for more specific
warranty information.
All Non-Marvin products(i.e. specialty/custom millwork) carry a 1 year warranty from the original
date of purchase.
Any labor necessary to repair or replace warranty items(Marvin or Non-Marvin)is not included and is
the customer's responsibility.
Dale Incorporated is available to provide warranty related labor services at a price to be
determined after warranty inspection.
I, as customer, agree to the terms and prices of the above contract.
This proposed contract is good for 30 days from the above date.

    Bookmark   April 6, 2011 at 9:54PM
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Let us know what the Andersen pricing looks like.

Here are some videos from Andersen on full tear out replacements.

Here is a link that might be useful: Replacement Windows - Full Frame

    Bookmark   April 9, 2011 at 3:16PM
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Andersen is coming on Tuesday morning so I am hoping to have a price by the end of this week. Marvin is the one to beat so we'll see...

    Bookmark   April 10, 2011 at 7:54PM
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Andersen rep just left. Actually, he does not strictly represent Andersen, although that is what he has in his own house. He was initially trying to sell me a different window. Can't remember the brand but they are wood on the inside and PVC on the outside. He does recommend full tear outs. When he heard that he was pricing up against Marvin I think he realized he needed to quote Andersen 400 Woodwright. He says they are the very best windows. Any Marvin fans care to disagree?? He also said that his price would be higher because he says they are a more pricey window. Consumer reports disagrees with that I think. But, he says that he needs a week so I will have to wait. He also indicated that they would prefer to replace the interior trim instead of re use. Marvin never even offer to replace with new. I was given the impression that re using the old was standard with that installer. I certainly like the cost savings of re using the old, although I am sure I would paint it again to match the window. One big issue with Andersen is they only have 4 colors. Eagle has over 50 but I have heard they are not great. Marvin has 19 colors. Hmmmm.....

    Bookmark   April 12, 2011 at 12:37PM
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I would completely disagree that they are the best and undoubtedly Marvin Ultimate's are hands down a better unit and I don't think anyone would argue that point.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2011 at 4:10PM
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That's pretty much what I think too, based on Consumer reports and this forum. Oh, and I forgot to mention that the rep who came today did NOT even bring a window sample! He just assumed I had already been in the showroom and when I asked if he brought one he replied, "those windows are heavy". Um, the Marvin rep who DID bring a sample last week was a LADY and she was carrying one of those "heavy" windows. This guy today was not awful but I definitely did not gel with him as much as with the Marvin rep last week. I actually hope that his pricing is higher so I can easily justify going with Marvin, lol!

    Bookmark   April 12, 2011 at 5:17PM
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Finally got the quote from Andersen today, nearly two weeks after having the rep out to measure. The bid was only two sheets and it did not break out the price, per window, as the Marvin quote did. The entire house would cost $35,250 so that is $3,000 more than the initial Marvin quote. I believe this is also contractor pricing. But, with Marvin, if I pay the installer directly I can save about $4,000 overall which makes Marvin about $7,000 less than Andersen. I'm actually happy the Andersen quote came in higher because it makes my decision that much easier.

Thoughts anyone??

    Bookmark   April 25, 2011 at 10:41PM
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    Bookmark   April 26, 2011 at 12:13AM
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Marvin definitely.

    Bookmark   April 26, 2011 at 7:23AM
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I'd definitely go with Marvin. I have more confidence in the aluminum exterior and the release mechanism for tilting the lower sash was a much better design than the Andersen one. I would have gone with Marvin if they hadn't been so much more expensive than Marvin.

    Bookmark   April 28, 2011 at 5:26PM
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Sheeze Louise, have you made my mind spin, just when I was ready to sign the dotted line with Marvin for full tear outs! Time to think it out much more.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2011 at 9:21PM
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I've done my homework and am very bummed out. I have learned ALL windows made today for replacement or tear out, no matter the maker or price, have limited life spans and begin to ROT after 10 to 15 years. I'd post a couple links but don't have current access. If you want, Google the brand you are considering and "Complaint" or "Review." If still in doubt, let me know and I'll try to post links asap.

The people who aren't after money, i.e., not some people on this very link trolling for customers, will advise you to do whatever you can to save your existing windows, IF you live in a home built in 1970 or earlier that has original wood windows.

If not, they will advise you to get the cheapest windows you can find with the longest warranty. Semco looked kind of good, but, sadly, I've also seen many complaints with those. I found 100s of complaints re. Marvin line, especialy the Ultimate, but the complaints (general and court filings) run rampant throughout the industry. I know Pella is or was the subject of a class action, and even the very high end Rohl and Rohl has had rot complaints. The Integrity has reportedly been designed 3 times, not the best advert for a quality product. I have yet to see before and after photos of any replacements that don't reflect perceptibly smaller window openings.

Aside from asthetic issues and loss of size and light with the replacements, the apparent problem is poor quality of wood used in construction. No manufacturer has access to old wood from which windows were once made to last a lifetime.

I am not happy to post any of this. We wanted new windows. Now, we hope to find a window refurbisher and pay whatever we need to preserve and protect what we have. Unfortunately for us, most cos. that do this work are located in North East states.

    Bookmark   May 27, 2011 at 5:55PM
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Catherine - sorry that you are so unhappy. But why did you want new windows if you already had ones that will last a lifetime?

    Bookmark   May 28, 2011 at 8:43AM
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