Need some advice!

so0830February 17, 2009

My husband and I have a 19month old daughter, he has a daugther that is 17 yrs. old. When we told her we were expecting she was excited, as soon as we knew it was going to be a baby girl, she picked up her cellphone and called biomom and cried and cried. My husband and I looked at her in complete shock, she told her mom how upset she was that she wouldn't be the "girl" anymore. As I said, our daughter is 19months old now and the 17yr. old has seen her 3 times, she's stopped coming over on weekends and stopped calling her dad. Some time ago, we spoke to biomom on the phone and she said "well, what do you expect? she's ur little girl and now you go and have another child -- you better not think this absolves you of any money support for her!" Needless to say, we are STUPIFIED! We continue to pay support and for parochial school, but she will be 18 yrs. old in March 09. My thought is to finish support at that point, there is no order stating that we have to continue after she graduates h.s. -- this will happen in about 3 months. He's tried to call, write letters and her mom has cut off her cell phone and says that he has to only speak to her from now more talking one on one with his daughter. HUH???? I think she needs some counseling. Any thoughts?

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Wow. I think a little background is needed.

how long have your husband and his ex been divorced? How long have you two been married? To what extent has he been involved in his older daughter's life?

I think all of these things are relevant in getting to the bottom of why your SD is so hurt and feeling displaced.

Counseling for your husband and his daughter sounds like a good idea.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2009 at 11:30PM
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He was never married, he and his exgirlfriend dated when they were 19 and they had a daughter. He and his daughter have had a good relationship, albeit peppered with alot of issues with her mom. Example: whenever my husband would "date" women, her mom had a problem with it..always asking the daughter the what, when, how, what if. I have been in the picture since 2002 and his daughter has been around alot, at least two weekends a month, every vacation we've taken together, we took her too. She and I would go to the movies together or shopping alone, without anyone else often. Issues always stemmed around her mom -- she would ask questions about my "job" about my "salary" and why it was that I owned a home alone. I've always felt that her mom had alot of problems with the fact that I didn't "NEED" my husband to help me financially. Some years ago she made a comment to me that was something like this: "i guess you wont have kids and now we all share Samantha", my response was "well, im not sure if kids are out of the picture, i'm just not quite ready yet, we'll see" and she responded "well, u better be ready cause samantha is your responsibility as well as Bob's responsibility and she's got to be number 1"
I'll never forget that, it was the strangest thing...We've seen samantha a couple times in the last 19months, but it is strained. Her mom has requested an xtra 1,000 dollars because prom is coming up and graduation expenses, her mom left a message on our voicemail saying that it was our duty to look out for his daughter, to not be forgotten just because he has another daughter. It is freakin' baffling.

    Bookmark   February 17, 2009 at 11:40PM
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It sounds to me as if BM has been grooming DD toward this type of reaction to your baby being a girl.

I would suggest that DH take his DD17 out, alone, for some one on one time. Then, if the ice can be broken, he could explain to her that a parent's heart is not limited in the amount of love it has for a parent's children. The heart grows with each child to accommodate the love that is felt for each one. Having 2 daughters does not spilt his love it doubles it. If DD17 has friends with sisters he could use them as examples. Does she feel that her girlfriends parents feel less love for the first child each time another one was born? It would also be important to tell her that the first born child holds a special place in his heart. She is the one that made him a parent for the very first time.

I think you are battling a very vindictive BM but that would not stop me from trying to get through to DD17. If he can't speak to her, if she won't do that then he should write her a letter.

BM sounds very jealous. The point she makes about all three of you being responsible for DD17 could be carried out to a much better end if all three adults would respect one another and work together for the good of DD17. It does not sound like BM wants to go that far.

I feel for all of you. How miserable BM must be. How confused DD17 must feel. How sad that the birth of your DD has this attached to it. I hope that DD17 can be convinced that it will be her behavior that determines her relationship with her dad. If she continues to act this way she most certainly will not be a part of your family. Very sad.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 1:11AM
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It is sad, I recall when we all found out at the ultrasound that our child would be a girl and when my SD17, cried and cried. I felt sad, hurt, pissed off and you're right, I felt like I couldn't fully enjoy the upcoming birth. I should say, I allowed it to get in the way for me. Now at 19 months, I have to be honest, hardly any contact after many attempts on our part, I just feel as if I "don't give a rat's ass"..of course, I do, they are sisters . Last week I sent some photos in the mail to her and we've gotten no response.My husband sent a letter in the mail over a month ago to his daughter and the only response he got was from the X asking fro 1,000 bucks for senior high school social events. He asked to talk to Samantha on the phone and her mom said she wasn't available. Samantha's cell phone is no longer activated, her mom said that she no longer has one. My husband doesn't know what else to do, he's been thinking of meeting her after school to see if they can talk alone.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 9:08AM
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I really don't see what's so baffling, stupefying or mystifying about it. It's incredibly difficult for a kid from a previous marriage to experience the birth of a new step-sibling, especially after a certain age and with so many years between them and especially after so many years that the older kid was the 'only child'. Imagine normal, intact-family sibling rivalry and ratchet it up about 100 orders of magnitude.

I'm by no means saying that blended families should never have additional children, or that they should feel forever guilty over it. Just that it is a very sensitive issue, for what should be obvious reasons, and requires a lot of awareness and empathy to make it work.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 9:08AM
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I think his meeting her afterschool is a good idea. While it may be that BM is largely behind SD's unapproachable stance, all the more reason for her Dad to not give up on her. In that kind of situation, if the other bio-parent is exacerbating a wedge (or anytime you have anyone exacerbating a wedge), it's especially hard, ambivalent and downright confusing for the kid in question. It becomes easier for them to just avoid the situation that is seen as being the source of all the conflict and trouble. That explains, in large part, why kids withdraw. She needs the unconditional love and effort of her Dad, especially in a situation like this. I think it would be good for him to make the effort to see her separately. All he has to do is tell her he loves her and that he understands she might be feeling mixed up and upset about the new situation and that he wants to be there for her to listen, and not judge herfor her feelings, and to be her Dad. That's all. It may not "take" the first time, or even the second or third time, but if he consistently shows her he cares and that nothing will make him give up on her, she will come around. Her biggest fear is abandonment & replacement. People often have a tendency to pre-emptively bring about their biggest fears by doing things that ironically create the circumstances they fear. That's another part of what explains when kids in these situations withdraw. They don't want to be the ones who are abandoned/replaced because they are the more powerless/vulnerable ones and they imagine it's far too painful, so they remove themselves. Her Dad needs to be stronger than that, stronger than her young & confused psychological defense mechanisms. He is the adult, the parent, he needs to have the awareness and maturity to weather those storms, especially since they are very predictable storms.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 9:46AM
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Serentiy I think you were a bit harsh. The daughters reaction is not that unusual with the crying etc. The bm's reaction is what is baffling!! Not allowing her daughter to talk to the dad and antagonizing this distance because of the new baby! I find it to be a tactic of alienation.....similar to the way your own stepmom alienated your dad from you.

I do like the idea of meeting his daughter afterschool. At 17 there is not much else he can do. Soon she will be 18 and no judge will force visitation or anything. He only has a few months to try to reconnect with her or he chances losing her forever! I suggest having him write her a letter that it worded very carefully and kind. The letter should state his love for her and his saddness over not speaking to her. It should also state that she was in no way replaced by the new baby....that his love for her has never changed. Have this letter ready to give to her in case she refuses to talk to him when he goes to her school.

And when going to the school I suggest getting there like 10 min before the end of the day and going to the office to have her paged. Unless he knows exactly where to find her right after school...

Either that or just show up at bm's home to see her. If he has a court order is it possible that he can show up and bring the police with him and tell them that bm has been ignoring the court order for 18 months and force the daughter to go with him??? I know this sounds drastic, but bm cutting off all communication is also drastic.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 9:51AM
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I didn't mean to be harsh, and I don't approve of the BM making such a big stink... Just wanted to urgently drive home the point that no matter what DH shouldn't give up because this *is* such a sensitive point in time... and there is a really big risk that the father-daughter relationship could be ruined at this juncture. Which will ripple out and effect everyone in a negative way, not even just the two of them. I'm just saying please don't let the alienation tactics win!

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 10:02AM
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Can I suggest that you don't send pictures of your baby to her? If she is having a problem with it, that might be throwing fuel on the fire... putting it in her face so to speak. For the time being, your DH should be working on his relationship with her and in time, she may come around in regard to your daughter. Expecting her to share in your joy and feel like a big sister might be asking too much when there is such a big age difference. There is sometimes feelings of jealousy from an older child when a baby is born in an intact family. Add to your situation, a BM that is encouraging her daughter's angst and feelings of displacement in the family and it's going to be that much harder to fix. Sending her pictures of the baby may just be adding to her feelings of being pushed aside for the new 'daughter'.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 10:11AM
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He's tried to call, write letters and her mom has cut off her cell phone How about contacting her online? Is there a 17-year-old alive that doesn't have a Facebook or Myspace account? Send her a short note that he misses her etc and if she has a new cell # he'd love to have it so he can call. Or whatever seems appropriate, but on the chance that BM is hiding from her the fact that he's been trying to contact her, this would have a better chance of getting through.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 10:21AM
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I love these ideas, the Myspace page is a great source, he knows it and he certainly can send her a note/letter of some sort to her. As far as any other email account, we aren't aware of any that she has. Also, the baby photos, i think you guys might be right..unless requested, I won't be sending anymore photos to her. We considered writing her a letter so that she/her dad and the baby could get a family photo together..he's on the fence about it, but I thought it was a good idea. Biomom also told him that he won't be welcome at the graduation service (tickets are given to all students..max. of 5 tix) if he does not pay the 1,000 bucks she's requesting for her senior yr.
He says it seems like extortion and to be honest, it does to me too. What you all think about the money situation?

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 11:42AM
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Along these lines (but much more exaggerated, of course), has anyone seen "Blow" with Johnny Depp playing George Jung the Miami drug kingpin? As it happens, I watched it about a month ago and ended up bawling my eyes out, primarily over what happens between he and his daughter. Now granted, partly this was just an unanticipated grief response because it had to do with a divorced Dad & daughter and my Dad had died about two months earlier. My mom was never the "parental alienation" type so we didn't really have the problem like with Penelope Cruz (the mom), but nonetheless that aspect of the movie touched me so hard, and there was this realization of the preciousness of the parent-child relationship and how devastating it is when it's gone.

The interesting thing about my reaction is that I am the daughter (also the SD, to my Dad's wife) and my sympathies were with the drug-addled, locked-up Dad and I found myself very angry with his daughter for refusing to visit him in prison for so long. It was like this raw reaction I had, like "how could you torment and deny your father like this?" I just thought that was kind of interesting because I'm a daughter, and because I have a natural inclination to hold adults/parents a lot more accountable for things than children and I usually have a ton more sympathy for the kids.

But in thinking about it, I guess my reaction was not so much person or role specific as it was a reaction against *anyone* who is inflexible, excessively judgmental, anyone who unduly punishes someone else, especially someone who is in one way or another crying out for love and acceptance. In this case, it happened to be the daughter... though I did feel sorry for her too. I understood why as a child and young adult she was so dramatically hurt and abandoned and brainwashed and split in half, and her mother was "parental alientation" to the absolute extreme. But something about the passing of all those years where she wouldn't make any acknowledgement of her father at all made me upset. But even that story had a small bright spot at the end, as I read on Wikipedia that she had finally gone to see her Dad in jail. I guess it just took her a very long time to grow up and have enough detachment to see what had gone on and to let go of some of the judgment of him and be strong enough to put her vulnerability out there again. Sometimes it happens that way. It was a very sad parent-child story, but one thing that was positive about it was that it showed that even in these extremely dramatic situations, deep down parents and children don't want to stay alienated from each other, and most often eventually they both "come around".

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 11:58AM
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"There is sometimes feelings of jealousy from an older child when a baby is born in an intact family."

I think there is a lot of this coming into play. If dad and BM were never married, were young when DD was born, etc. then DD never really did get to grow up in a "normal" nuclear family. While that does NOT mean her parents love her any less, it does mean she did not get the "typical" childhood that many kids do get. These issues may have risen to the surface when your own DD was born; now older DD is seeing her much younger baby sister get the childhood and intact family SHE never had. That has to hurt. :(

I think your DH needs to focus on his relationship with his DD, and not allow himself to be cut out of her life. Myspace contact or school visits are both really good ways for him to show her that he LOVES her and wants to be in her life.

The fact that BM feels so strongly about you guys having a baby is pretty baffling to me. She sounds a little loopy and like she has MAJOR insecurity issues. It sounds like it has been a LONG time since she and your DH were together; for her to have not moved past it by now is kind of kooky!

I do think the Bm in my situation would have FLIPPED if DH and I had another baby----were it not for the fact that SHE had a baby herself 14 months ago. I think that really opened her eyes to the fact that your only child is not the SOLE focus of your life once you have another. I am really glad she did have her baby first because if/when DH and I have one of our own, I think BM will not be angry or jealous about it.

I take it the BM in your case does not have any other children?

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 12:26PM
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here's the crazy thing, biomom married about 14 yrs. ago and has two children with her husband (so, there is an intact under one roof family). What I noticed when I came into the picture was certainly an over-the-top concern about what me and my husband did on weekends, why we bought a house together..strange things like that. To me, never having been married or had kids, I thought this was way over the line of boundaries and some years back, I told biomom the very same thing. I told her that what we do with our lives was our business and not hers. That didn't go well, after that, we barely spoke. Samantha continued coming to our house on weekends, we had her decorate her own room, set up a computer in there and she even had friends stay overnight. As soon as we told her about the baby, she was thrilled..then we found out it was going to be a girl, she cried and cried. Her dad tried to talk to her about it, how he loves her, nothing changes about his feelings for her etc. etc. Samantha told him that things will be different forever and she won't be "his little girl"...Like I said, Samantha will be 18 yrs. old in March and our daughter is 19 months old, I just wasn't expecting this reaction from a young woman, who is almost of age. Maybe I'm having a hard time getting it, I'm trying and we'll see what happens.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 12:51PM
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Really, the fact that Samantha is the age she is makes it *especially* hard. I'm not trying to make you feel guilty, just to understand. She's almost 18, which means almost time to go to college (I presume she's going), almost time when 'the law' defines a person as an adult. From her perspective, it feels like now that she is almost 'of age', Dad is done with her. Onto the next little girl. Now she's just a big old dud, not a cute attention-magnet like a little baby. Now Dad has "started all over again", with a "brand-new little girl" and a "brand-new life".

Even though these thoughts and feelings are a bit irrational and without basis (at least, if everything goes right they are irrational and without basis), people have thoughts like that. People of all ages, no matter how juvenile it sounds put into words. Yes, your husband's words to his daughter are good, they're what parents are supposed to say definitely, but they are just words. On an subconscious level, Samantha is probably "testing" these words a bit to see how sincere they are, to see if they are really going to be backed up long-term with real action and attitude... mainly that actions/attitudes won't change too much. especially the actions and attitudes of caring, attention and LOVE. This doesn't make her a bad person or even all that much more insecure or immature than any of the rest of us were we to be put in a situation of similar emotional significance. No matter what age we are.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 1:04PM
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got it. It does make sense, and I come from a mom/dad household..I never had to deal with separate homes, this is not something I relate to and have difficulty understanding the "i don't feel loved" concept or the push/pull of two parents in different households. I know my husband is very upset about all of this and can't make heads or tails of it. He's planning a visit to school next week. We'll see how it goes

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 3:33PM
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I usually don't agree with the catch-phrase "guilt parenting", at least not the way it's often applied, but I will say this... The key is for you both (but especially him, as her Dad) to not let yourselves feel *guilty*. I say this NOT to suggest anyone be insensitive or unfeeling (actually quite the opposite) but mainly because when people feel guilty they tend to really, really hate feeling that way. Thus to get rid of the guilty feelings they will often do things that aren't always healthy or productive. Either they'll overindulge (this is where a lot of the complaints one hears about "guilt parenting" come in, as in indulging a kid who could use more discipline) or the opposite: they will develop an overly cold/harsh approach and deflect blame so that it becomes all someone else's fault (this is especially sad when it is the kid). Simply because they soooooo cannot bear the idea of having done something "wrong", or something that had some less-than-perfect side effect. Both reactions to feeling *guilty* cause problems, and both mean there will be someone who feels short-changed, or like the scapegoat. This type of guilt feeling is based on the idea that the choice someone made (in your husband's case: having an additional child) was "wrong", and furthermore that being "wrong" is simply unacceptable.

Instead, the idea should be to feel *responsible*, which yes, does mean being *accountable* and owning the choice, but it has a positive aspect that guilt feelings don't: a person can be *responsible* in a good way, and they also have some power to control the effects of a situation for the good. If your husband can draw the important distinction between taking *responsibility* for the choice he made to have another child and the additional efforts he will have to make to ensure it goes smoothly for everyone vs. feeling *guilty* about his choice (which there is no un-doing now), he will realize that improving the situation isn't hopeless and therefore he will be less upset about it. He'll also be able to make more sense of what is actually going on psychologically in the situation and what he needs to do and say when he is able to face it and say "okay, here's where the issue is" without being afraid to face it because deep down he's afraid he made an irrevocable "wrong" decision. If it's just a FACT of life, as opposed to some supposed evil deed, it will be like any other situation where there's just certain responsibilities that can be anticipated and controlled that go along with the choice. It's not really that different than getting a new kitten when you already have a cat. Nobody should or would feel guilty for that (as long as they can adequately take care of both), it's just like: "well here's what we need to do for the introductory/transition period" and as we know, that involves anticipating that the older cat will be hissy and/or disappear for a while and will need to be reassured that s/he is not being replaced. No guilt, no judgment, just the facts of what to expect you're going to have to deal with when you get another cat. The humans aren't bad humans and the cats aren't bad cats, the situation just is what it is and requires specific steps.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 4:06PM
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"BM has been grooming DD"

yep, & not just for the birth of the baby.

The grooming has been going on for a very long time (asking you about your income, etc).

Hubs needs to put a stop to the mother's interference in his relationship with his daughter.

(sounds easy if you say it fast!)

Best luck!

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 4:32PM
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serenity i hear what you are saying but I think this type of reaction is not very normal. DD was very excited when her first brother was born, and then again very excited when her second brother was born. She was the only child, and for me she still is my only child, but she always wanted to have siblings, it was and is a very happy thing for her that her dad has more children. It never occured to her that she gets less attention or less money. I would assume most well adjusted teens and young adults are happy to have bigger families.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 4:43PM
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so0830, I am concerned that you are planning on cutting support when she turns 18. Who is going to help with college? Even wiht loans she will need help, do you expect mom to do everything? Even if there is no order saying otherwise why her father is not planning to help her at least first year in college?

saying that of course mom's reaction to child's birth is bizzare, but I wonder if she trully worries that dad won't help his daughter in time of need. I of course do not justify mom's beahvior, just trying to understand.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 4:49PM
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I don't know Fine, my SD went both ways. She was thrilled when I had both boys (and bugs for another baby, dream on!) but not so thrilled when she found out mom was pregnant, and less so when it was a girl. She was able to explain her feelings pretty well though.
1) She knows she is not her mom's first priority. Though mom says things like 'you're my #1' all the time, as SD says she shows with her actions that isn't true, and actions speak louder than words.
2)She worries that her mom and step dad will break up like her mom and dad did, and her sister will have to go through the crap she did. Being that they threaten to monthly, this is a valid fear!

SD's mom did try to poison the births, but we were lucky that SD lives with us and we were able to combat that. I think you will just have to do everything in your power (you and DH) to show her, not tell her, she is just as much of the family as before. Starting with after school is a good thing. Showing her that you will go out of your way to make time just for her should make an impression.

I think Fine may also be onto something - if mom is telling SD that once she turns 18 support is gone and she's on her own she's probably got some fear as to what her future will hold. It likely makes her feel disposable, and mom will feed into that fear. It's probably past time to figure out what her plan is so that she doesn't feel so uncertain.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 5:49PM
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We plan to help her with college, at this point we pay support checks to her biomom and the catholic school tuition goes straight to the school. We have not been involved in any way in the past year as far as what monies are involved with "college prep". We know applications have been handled , but only because we are both assuming that they've been handled, not because we heard it from either biomom or samantha. We currently pay about 5K a yr. for catholic HS, we plan to continue doing that, but when she turns 18 and graduates from HS in 3 months, We will no no longer be paying weekly checks to biomom. My husband has told biomom that we plan to help with college, but biomom told him that she doesn't know where she'll wind up at. It's now Feb. and no word whatsoever about any school decisions.

    Bookmark   February 18, 2009 at 11:05PM
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Maybe it's time to quit waiting for them to come to you and go to them . . . and keep going until you get an answer. You can't just wait to BE involved, you have to GET involved.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2009 at 1:35AM
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I think your husband needs to sit his daughter down and explain that just because he has another daughter doesn't make her less important to him in his life or that he loves her any less. She will always be his first born nothing can change that.
That is exactly what we said to my Sd when i was pregnant. But we had a boy. so the jealousy fell on my SS. He got over it because he cames eow and he would constantly be spoken to. Unfortunately Bm was awful during this time and would state daddy now wont love u anymore and now the baby is more important. WE, me and my Dh would enforce it with the kids that its an evil thing to say and its wrong for anyone to tell them that their dad will no longer love them. Its untrue and anyone saying that has personal issues and obviously is not happy with the birth of a new baby. How good is that person to state awful things? It was not said ever again our household. Though in the years that have past, the daughter would always use my son against her dad and he would basically put her in her place and say nope that not reality. SS , no matter what bm has said to him, has completely bonded now with his brother and is stuck to him like glue.
Sd wants me ot have a girl but i'm not sure if her reaction will be happy after the birth. Ifshe uses my son against her dad, i can bet that she will be acting much like your daughter when my daughter is born. BUT, its normal for my Sd age. She's very young.
But your SD is almost 18 and i think her mother has preened her to be #1 and to be at the top and when she doesn't get that, she shuts her dad out. VEry wrong, VERRRy wrong.
Ther eis nothing you can do if bm has encouraged to cut off communications. I think your husband should approach her after high school for a talk and if that fails then back off and let time pass.
But i dont think he should shell out 1000 bucks if she is behaving like this. I think he shoudl give some money but not that much. Sorry, he's not a bank. SHe's almost an adult and should respect her father. All these years he has supported her and spent time with her and then in one swoop she drops him like a rock? She needs a dose of reality and a good talking to. And if the meeting at the high school is not successful. Send a bit of cahs to say he's given some but 1000 is over the top. its doesn't cost that much to buy a prom dress....mine was about 200 bucks..and shoes another about 250 $ to help and throw in a gift and that it.
IF she doesn't come around after so much effort that you guys have put in then she needs counciling and you can't force her. You guys need to let go.
19 months of trying to me is more than enough time. You Dh has to speak to her and tell her its been over 1 1/2 years now and if that is what she wants then so be it but its on her shoulders and that you guys tried. Good luck, call me when you are ready to be part of our lives. We didn't shut you out. You did that on your own. ITs too bad your sister will miss you and you wont have a chance to be her big sister.

    Bookmark   February 19, 2009 at 9:06AM
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This opinion probably won't be too popular but here it goes....SD17 needs to grow up.

My step children are twin five year olds and when their sister was born they were as happy as larks. If two "daddy's girls" five year olds can handle a new sister what's this girls problem? She is old enough that the relationship she has with her father will be nothing like that with an infant anyway. She is old enough to understand the concept of "The world doesn't revolve around me"

I don't mean to sound harsh here. I just think it's ridiculous that the poster fely guilt about having a baby when the other "child" involved is seventeen. If it was a younger child I would unndrstand. You should never feel guilty about having a baby. That should be a happy time.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2009 at 3:46PM
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I think it is father's job to get involved with education and such. SD's reaction seems bizzare but when you think of it...My DD was happy because the birth of new children didn't effect her realtionship wiht her father. But if it would be otherwise, maybe she would be upset.

It seems that OP's statements such as "WE think there should be no support anymore" or "MY thoughts are not to pay support anymore" etc might be upsetting for SD and her mother. And they might be connecting such statements to dad being influenced by a new wife and having a new baby. They might feel resentful. Is it right? no. But it could be understandable.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2009 at 4:21PM
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