I don't want to live with my fiance's daughter.

silvergypsyFebruary 20, 2007

Hi everyone...I'm brand new here, but I've just read every message in the forum and now I need to vent.

My fiance is 36, and I'm 28. We've been together for 3 years. His daughter is 13 (I'll call her Amy). He didn't know Amy existed until she was 6. Throughout our relationship, Amy has stayed with us on weekends sometimes, but when she's not with her BM, she's mainly with his parents, and he sees her at their house.

BM is disgusting--5 kids by 3 different men, lives with her sister's family because she can't support herself, doesn't work, collects welfare, never taught the kids to shower or brush their teeth or wear clean clothes. There are 10 people living in their 2-bedroom apartment, and Amy's lack of hygiene skills is appalling.

We live in a 2-BR apt, and one time when Amy stayed over, the smell of her feet was so strong that I got up and left in the middle of the night and stayed at my mother's house. My fiance tells her she has to clean herself better, and she'll do it for a day or two, but then it's back to the dirtiness.

All the sudden, 2 weeks ago, BM decides that Amy should live with me and my fiance -- no explanation. Up until now, she'd been reluctant to give up the child support, but I think my fiance told her he'd continue paying her, even though Amy's living with us.

This is DRIVING ME CRAZY. I feel like I've lost control of my home. I do not want to clean up after her. When my fiance falls asleep at 9 p.m., I don't want to have her hovering around me every night. When he gets off work late or has to leave early, I don't want to have to drive her to school and back. When I come home late from work, there she is, in my chair in the living room, on my computer, and I have to hide in the kitchen until I'm ready for bed. She is not my responsibility. I get no joy out of coming home any more, because I feel like it's not my home.

The biggest problem is that I'm completely skeeved out by her. I know that a lot of it is mental, but I can't help myself. I take my own towels into the bedroom now, because I don't want her using them. And that's just one example. I'm Lysol-ing EVERYTHING, constantly. The grossest thing, by FAR, is that when she uses the toilet, she doesn't flush the toilet paper--she throws it in the wastebasket. I don't know where she picked this up, but it's nasty, and I've told my fiance before that I won't have it in my house.

Just last night, I go into my bathroom and there's a big cruddy wad of toilet paper in the basket, and the bathroom STUNK. I tried to stay calm and said to my fiance, "You need to tell her to FLUSH the toilet paper. This is not the first time. It's disgusting, and it smells, and we don't do that here." And he stared at me like I'm EVIL. This is the FIRST and only negative thing I've said about her living here, and I don't think I'm out of line on this one! He didn't say a word to her. *I* cleaned out the wastebasket, and this morning, there's a fresh wad of TP in there...with blood on it.

I'm sorry this is so gross, but I'm just so disgusted and I don't know what to do. I feel like my life has just been turned upside down, and if I say anything, I'm going to lose my fiance.

Thanks for reading, if you got this far!

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Don't know if you have a wedding date planned but if you do you seriously need to consider postponing 'cause you have a huge problem on your hands that needs to be resolved before you even THINK of marrying this man.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 2:52PM
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The first thing I would do is make sure the child is his...does he know this for sure? Sounds like BM gets around so I would make sure..not that this will or should change him being in her life. The second thing I would tell him that if she is going to live with you....he can NOT pay this BM CS! If you are marrying him...you have EVERY say so in this. The third thing I would tell him and her is the hygiene WILL improve. Tell your BF you will stay on top of her and you refuse to live in filth. If you do not do these things....it will get so much worse and 99% chance you guys will either not get married or the marriage will not last. You better speak up now so you do not hit him with all this when you are married. Chances are if you can get a handle on this - you three can probably have a great family. I would get BM out of the picture. But I stress....DO NOT let him pay her CS if she is living with you. It is not fair to you and he will regret this. Although legally she can't make him.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 2:55PM
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Thanks for your replies so far. Yup, we're supposed to get married in August, but this is NOT the life I signed up for. I know that's not fair of me, but I can't help feeling like this.

Yes, the daughter is definitely his...he had all the tests done years ago. BM lives about 5 minutes away but in a different town. Every day, he drops Amy off at BM's on the way to work, and picks her up on his way home. BM has already told him that she still needs the child support money for those 4 hours a day. Mmmm-hmmm. Never mind that the child comes home from her mother's filthy (this really bothers me), and hasn't been fed.

We were going to start looking for a home this spring, and try to get pregnant immediately after the wedding, but now I just don't know. The house would technically be mine, money-wise, but now I'm completely soured on the whole idea--it just takes all the joy out of it. And Amy has made it very clear that she'd hate having a half-brother or sister.

I feel like such a b****, but I really liked the way my life was before, and now I'm crying every day.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 3:22PM
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So really she is just a "babysitter" although not much of one...why dosen't your BF go to court? She is using the two of you. Things will not get better - do you realize that? Only much, much worse. It dosen't matter if she wants a sibling or not. But with that attitude she is going to cause you big problems. If he has primary custody - you don't have to pay her ANYTHING! Sounds to me she should not be around this kid...I would contact children services...don't let her take you for a ride...you will resent your BF.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 5:00PM
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Run like hell. Seriously. Your life and your fiance and the girl's life will be in constant upheaval and struggle if you get married to this man.

The heck with child support, custody arrangements, etc. You do not need this.

...and it doesn't matter about "fair." Do NOT, and I repeat, do NOT sign up for a life of misery. Life is too short.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 5:14PM
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I've been telling him NOT to pay any child support any more--that money should go towards all the new expenses he'll have with the child living under OUR roof. But if he gives her nothing, she'll just take her daughter back home, so she can get the money again. That's what he's trying to avoid, and I keep telling him that he's being used, but he obviously doesn't mind paying that price.

He thinks the reason why BM decided to give the daughter up is because they're afraid now of DYFS and social services...that her family may have pressured her to "get rid" of Amy so that they wouldn't get in trouble with social services, or their landlord.

I know things aren't going to get better. This whole screwed-up situation has nothing to do with me, and here I am suffering for it.

That's what I'm struggling with: I know that if I choose to live with this, I AM setting myself up for a life full of misery. No matter how much it bothers me to have her with us, all I can do is walk away. So that's hard--realizing now that I can't do this after all, and no matter how much I love him, I can't live like this. That's just a really hard step to take.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 5:53PM
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Something is very wrong here.

Why would a normal, healthy man tolerate filth in his home, & pay to have it inflicted on him?

If the child's mother loses custody, doesn't CPS or the courts normally recommend that the nearest relative take custody?

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 7:14PM
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that is what I was thinking....if her family has "maybe" threatened with child services...then he has the advantage. Call child services and they will see she is living this way and the child WILL go to the Bio father. If he is that concerned, he would not want her in this filth at all, that is what I would tell him. He as her father has the responsibility as a parent to report this. The BM does not have the advantage in this situation, your fiancee does.....I can tell you right now that if this is going on and he insists on paying HER CS - you definitely need to reconsider what his feelings are for you. This is not going to work for you.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 7:37PM
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It IS wrong, and it's driving me nuts. I don't get it, either. The worst part is that my fiance is clean and tidy to a *fault* --so he gets really upset about the filth, but it's not enough to make her clean up.

He never had a burning desire to have custody of his daughter, or to see more of her than he was, so I guess this is good enough for him--BM simply saying she should live with us. I'm sure that any court in the land would have given him full custody a long time ago, should he have gone that route, just by looking at the BM's living situation.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 7:38PM
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Very long story short---I have been there - done that and am currently living "the life I didn't sign up for". SD and BM decided that SD should live with us a few years after we got married. This 17 yoa is the bane of my existence. She is very unlike me (similar lack of hygiene issues--5 days-no bath, etc), and spent her formative years with a BM who did not teach her to hold herself accountable for anything. (I could go on and on)

I am telling you from nearly identical experience (I'm 30 with DH 39, BM has 4 by 3, cannot keep a job---the similarities are alarming)
Things may change a little, but you will continue to have issues with this girl! I have spent the last several years (She has lived with us for 4 out of the last 6 years---been here permanently since May of 05)cleaning up after her just so my home remains near my standards, using air freshner to eliminate the odor that is in the living areas of the home (again routinely goes 5 days with no bath--yuk), trying to keep our 5 yoa from repeating her foul language and picking up her argumentative, disregarding behavior etc, etc, etc.....

We have tried to love and coax her into becoming her best self. We have gotten her psychological and psychiatric care. We have done everything we know to do......nothing will undo years of poor child rearing!!!

I am sorry that I don't have some wonderful jewel of a story for you---I'm sure they're out there. If you were my friend, telling me this story, I would tell you that the pain of walking away right now cannot compare to the indefinate frustration and resentment that you will undoubtably live with.

Good Luck to you, I will check back.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 7:40PM
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This is a total disaster for you -- I'm with Vivian in saying RUN!

The odds of a good outcome are SOOOOOO small. Let's see -- You have a wacko BioMom, a daughter who disgusts you (don't think for a minute that she and your fiance don't know this), and a daughter who's at the beginning of a very difficult time in ANYONE'S life. There are complicated financial considerations, poor role models, and questionable parenting on your fiance's part. (Why hasn't HE fixed the hygeine long before now?)

Even SuperNanny would have trouble with this one...

What's the likely outcome? You make a big thing out of the hygeine and step-daughter HATES you; even fiance will think you're being a #itch. SD gets rebellious and mouthy (she's a teenager) and your patience, already stretched to the breaking point, reaches its limits. You get mad and mean - SD and fiance both blame you. Maybe you 'succeed' in getting pregnant right away. Your baby takes every last bit of your time, energy and patience. (They all do.) SD sees how much love and attention you give the baby versus how hard it is for you to even be civil to her. Makes for even more good feelings. Fiance sees how loving you are to your own child and how not-so-sweet you are to his -- thinks you are unkind and unfair. SD sees BioMom acting like a tramp, and feeling unloved and unwanted seeks 'love' from teenage boys. Predictable results...

Run. Run far, far away. No man is worth *choosing* this kind of misery.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 7:53PM
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Thank you guys so much for all this feedback. It's so good just to hear from people who have lived through this, and it's really, really wonderful that you all don't immediately think I'm terrible for feeling this way.

Jenny, I honestly think the reason he hasn't called child services so far is because the situation just didn't bother him that much, and no matter how many times he asked his daughter if she'd prefer to live with him or his parents, she said no. So he kind of figured, "Well, if she wants to live in filth, let her." I think that a part of him figures she's already a lost cause--which I agree with, though not out loud. She's spent too much of her life with her BM and with that lack of morals and proper teaching, that even weekends and summers with HIS family can't derail all the bad stuff they've taught her.

Mmommy, thank you so much for the advice. I know I'll have a hard time taking it, but I know that you're right. I feel that no matter how much time he takes trying to teach his daughter to do the right things, these problems will not go away.

What is with these mothers not teaching their children basic hygiene? I know, I'm not a mom so I can't really throw stones, but come on now! By the time I was 13 I was so conscious of my body changing that I was constantly on top of how I smelled, how I looked, and not wanting to appear "gross" to anyone. I don't get it.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 8:00PM
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You nailed the outcome....that's me in a nutshell!

YOU ARE NOT A TERRIBLE PERSON! Listen, marriage is hard enough, the melding of two different personalites, backgrounds, and philosophies. A blended situation gets convoluted. A situation like this is a train wreck waiting to happen. I've never been able to understand how our BM was able to make child rearing such a disaster (no hygiene, no manners, no regard for self or others, etc, etc)....but, sadly, the bottom line is that it does happen.

My DH, like your fiance, had really thrown in the towel prior to SD coming here. (That's a whole different thread!) But his feelings of obligation trumped all of it.

Here's how it has played out at my house.
BM and SD are one in the same.
DH won't give BM the time of day.
SD lives with us and I (the polar opposite of BM and SD, the homemaker, "mommy" of the house, significant financial contributor----chosen by DH for marriage)am made to feel like a jerk (that's mild) for not being able to tolerate the behavior from SD that DH despises in BM!!!

I feel like a fortune teller right now.

Think long and hard.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 8:23PM
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Oh God. You guys are writing the same things that have been going through my head for two weeks. sweeby, I KNOW your outcome is 100% right--that's what scares me.

My mom and sister, who I of course talk to about all of this, have been telling me to get out, get out, get out. They see how much I've started going nuts in the past couple of weeks, and since there's no solution, they're absolutely right.

It's good to hear I'm not a terrible person, because I sure feel like it sometimes. When I'm alone, I'm in my house crying and pitching fits because I'm just so frustrated. And then I hate myself, because I'm 28, I've always had a good life, and I know that because of the way my parents raised me, I have never had a fraction of the problems she has/is going to have. I keep telling myself to try to be patient and loving, and to have some sympathy for her, but I can't sustain that.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 8:45PM
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I can truly relate to what you are saying---you have been raised well; you are a productive, contributing, responsible adult. You have fallen in love with a man with a child.............now it turns out that the child has terrible issues. Of course, since your parents raised such a "whole person", you feel as though you should tap in to your sympatheic/empathetic parts. However, sympathy and empathy may not be enough. Additionally, as raised, you have clear goals and an idea of the life that you will have. This type of "X" factor will take that picture and turn it inside out. You will spend many an hour frustrated and at your wits end. Your feelings will be hurt repeatedly as fiance/DH holds steady in your life such a toxic individual. Take a good long look at BM....could you live with her? I assure you that SD may become her (if she's not already).

I am sorry if my posts come across as negative...I am just being reflective and honest. As stated earlier--I have been there, done that , and am living a "life I did not sign up for".

You are in my thoughts and I will continue to check back.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2007 at 10:48PM
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I know things aren't going to get better. This whole screwed-up situation has nothing to do with me, and here I am suffering for it.


I keep telling myself to try to be patient and loving, and to have some sympathy for her...

Stop that!

I'll add my voice to the RUN chorus (in case you need another nudge). Give yourself permission to put yourself first and don't beat yourself up about it. You tried patient and loving. It didn't work. The girl is still filthy. Let her dad cope with it. It will be painful to say goodbye to the man you love but the sooner the better. He needs to get to work raising his child without you there to do the dirty work. You need to get to work building a life without him. Buy a house anyway and have fun decorating it to your taste with no annoying compromises!

Listen to your mom.

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 2:19AM
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"a daughter who disgusts you (don't think for a minute that she and your fiance don't know this)"

What an excellent insight!

possibly the reason the wonderful fiance tolerates it?

It works for him?

puts you in your place, makes you miserable, debases you, subjects you to living in filth?

Would he stand for this *if you were not there*?

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 7:53AM
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silvergypsy...everyone is telling you the truth here. This will not go away. Distance yourself for awhile from your fiance...see how you feel. Love is a powerful thing, but it does diminish when your dealing with a stepchild that will not be the sweet girl you hoped she would. Most of all is dealing with the ex...you will feel last in your fiance's life, he will choose to deal with the BM and MOST likely do what she wants (this will eat you to the bone). He will expect you to sit and the background and take it - because "you knew the situation before you married him". I did not see anywhere about her being disrespectful but, girl if not yet...it IS coming! If this child is 13 and does not respect herself...then she will respect no one else. Please do not bring another child into this situation, it will be so much harder. Your young and right now you think this fiance is what you want and you are so much in love. Then when you get married and bad things start to happen, you will wonder where that love went.

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 8:05AM
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Getting the child the flush paper will be the easiest thing you ever accomplish. It will get worse.

If you do not have your fiance's support forget it. You are not the maid.

If she makes a mess in the kitchen do you "make" her clean it? When you discover it in the basket get her and make her flush it be persistent. Set and post rules @ 13 she old enough for chores but do not make her a cinderella, (I had to post a list of basic manners) refer to them often.

It will not happen overnight nothing does. You can change the kid if you have support do not be the bad guy. You can make a difference it takes a lot of patience.

If the kid won't do it "go on strike" I don't do anything a "mother" should do, it works wonders :D.

What helped with my daughter with hygiene issues... buying the bathing soap kits. Deordorants, powders etc. atleast she can cover up the stink.

Again, If you do not have your BFs support nothing will work!! Would you want to raise another child like she has been raised?

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 9:09AM
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I totally understand you and your feelings of not liking your fiancs daughter.

I am in the same same same situation in regards to my oldest SD's hygiene and everything else about her. I still remember to this day when she came to our cottage for a weekend and when I opened the closet door, there I found her underwear with blood all over! Sorry to gross you out but I couldn't believe it myself. I took them and threw them in her bag! To this day, this SD is exactly like her biomother. Sloppy, dirty.

I remember talking to her dad about this, but as usual he would not confront her about her hygiene and I didn't feel it was my place to do so, considering we hardly talked in the first place. It took me years and years and years to realize that I have absolutely nothing in common with this SD and the only reason I am nice to her is because she is my husband's daughter. Today, I do everything not to talk to her.

She came over at Christmas and when she came near me.....ugh....body order is all I smell. Her clothes were dirty and she smelled.

When she left, DH said ...my daugther is gaining a tremendous amount of weight and she is doing nothing about it!! I could not believe that DH would for once in 18 years say something like that about his daughter cause he never, never says anything wrong about her.

You should see her house, her car! Disgusting! In fact, I totally refuse to go to her house because of the smell. In the beginning, when she would come to our cottage, I would clean up after her, her children and her husband for the whole weekend. One day, I got sick of this and told DH I was never going back to the cottage and spend time with this people. When they do go to the cottage, I let DH go with them. It seems like he likes doing this less and less lately. Wonder why! He's getting sick and tired of picking up after her and of taking care of her kids, and everything else when she is there. She is 26 yrs! When I asked her to help me do the dishes, she looked right at me and said : I don't do dishes!
The last time I did go to the lake when she was there, I practically fainted when I walked in my place. You could not even walk into the bedroom anymore! There was clothes everywhere and the bed had not been made in a week!!!!!!!

When she left, i washed everything and I mean everything in order to get rid of her smell!

One last note : I agree with all the other posts here. If you find this situation with the SD hard to live with, believe me, it won't get any easier as she grows older. She will not be nice to you and you will feel guilty, and it will have an enormous effect on your relationship with your present partner! And having a child with him will not make the relationship with him or his daughter easier or better or better.

I know it may be hard to read this cuz I really, really know how it is when you love someone, but please take time to think about your life with this man and his daughter. Is this what you really, really want?
Keep posting.

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 10:09AM
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I can't believe how many of you relate to my situation. Thank goodness I've found this board, because I honestly need all of this help and support.

I'm going to vent out what happened last night before I go crazy.

He works 60+ hours a week. More often than not, he goes to work before 5 a.m. and gets home at 11 p.m. or later; so I have NO IDEA why he thought his daughter living with us would make any sense.

Yesterday, he told me there was no way he'd be getting off before midnight, and that he had to call BM to tell her he wouldn't be picking up his daughter. Then he says, "I don't know how I'll do this, with my job being like this...maybe I'll get a babysitter, someone to pick her up after school and bring her to our house and stay with her till I get home."

Part of me was happy he won't try to ask ME to be the babysitter/chauffer--but WHAT?!?! That means when I get home, not only is his daughter here, but so is a complete stranger? And who gets a babysitter for a 13 year old?? I couldn't even respond, I was so stunned, and he had to get back to work anyway.

I'm assuming he called BM next, and I have no clue what was said, but at TEN P.M., my cell phone starts ringing, and it's BM. I didn't pick up, but she left a message (keep in mind, I have NEVER, EVER once spoken to this woman beyond "Hi" and "Bye"). The message was: "Amy has no clothes here to wear to school tomorrow, so I'm wondering if you can bring her clothes, or pick her up and bring her to your house." She then proceeded to call EIGHT TIMES in the next half hour (I never picked up, and finally turned my cell off).

A couple of years ago, BM and Amy were in the habit of calling me when they couldn't reach her dad, and I told him to put a stop to that, which he did. I'll tell him again that this is unacceptable, but I seriously can't believe that she rang my phone off the hook like that. Calling a complete stranger? To ask for favors? Who does that???

So, yes. A long talk with my fiance is in the cards. I can't do this, but I ESPECIALLY can't do this if he hasn't even thought it through and if there's no real way for HIM to make this work, with his schedule. Part of me feels bad that I'm not being more of helpful for him, but I know if I start helping, I'll never be able to stop or set limits.

I love this board. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart. I'll be back later tonight.

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 2:08PM
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She needs some guidance. I think you and your husband need to sit down and talk about this, like adults. No b##ching, no complaining, just in a mature way figure out how to fix this. Help the girl.

Let me share a story of mine.

One of my best friends mother died when she was in third grade. I didnt meet her until I moved to her town in the sixth grade. Her dad was depressed, and he had three daughters to take care of on his own. He stopped working his kids didnt have any womanly figure in their lives. I grew up in a bad situation myself and really felt awful for her. She had no friends, she dressed in miss match clothing, she had really bad lice, and nearly the worst of all she smelled, kinda the farm she lived on.

I had gotten lice twice with my long hair in elementary school and knew I didnt want it, so keeping my distance I started to talk to her. She was a really smart and nice girl. My friends hated me for it, elementary/middle school drama, you know. By the time we reached ninth grade, all of my friends were buddies to her. Of course we got in many fights up till then but I couldnt just let the girl go off the deep end. Shes rubbed off on her younger sisters, they take care of themselves, and their house isnt the pigs sty it used to be. I am close with their family, we all see each other a lot.

I am not gonna take all the credit, but I think that what I did helped her. Now shes a very successful young woman. She graduated with astounding grades, won Miss Congeniality in a high school Ball, and is going off to University. She made friends even after I moved away. I still keep in touch with her. Shes one of the kindest people I know. Were very close friends, and I feel that she has come a long way from the catastrophe her life once was.

I think you should rethink doing anything irrational. I know if I were you I would discuss things, and try to be there for her. I bet thats all she really needs. She clearly came from a distraught home and your child or not she doesnt know any better. You never know, it could be one of the best things you can do in your life. She could turn tear out of her mothers footsteps and do something good with her life. You could be doing her a huge favor.

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 2:56PM
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MMommy had a good point -- If you were raised right and are a competent, caring, responsible person, it's only normal for you to feel some sense of obligation, to want to help, to make things right. To take the whole "in sickness and in health" part to heart, even pre-marriage. (Martyr complex? I think most mothers have at least a little one.) Maybe you're even likening this situation to having a child with a disability. You wouldn't run out on that, would you? (rhetorically)

But this isn't anything like that. We're talking character flaws, not disabilities that are no one's fault. These are choices that SD and BM and even BF are making, and choices that are in every way easy for them and bad for you. It's one thing to be self-sacrificing toward a noble goal -- to put your own needs second to those of your children. But again, that's not the situation here. SD has no need to be slovenly, and BM has no legitimate right to abdicate her parental responsiblilites. And your fiance has the ability to do far more as a parent than he's doing. Sure, he needs a job -- but he doesn't need this job with it's ridiculous hours. It's just a convenient excuse for him to be out of the house, leaving the dirty-work to you. (pun not intended)

I know what you're feeling is all negative, and that those are probably very unpleasant feelings for you. No doubt they're not the kind and generous thoughts you're probably used to having. But sometimes, that brown thing floating in the swimming pool isn't really a Baby Ruth bar, and trying to convince yourself that it is just doesn't help...

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 3:06PM
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Here's the story as I understand it:

Fiance is working all the time,
his daughter's disgusting habits are destroying your quality of life,
you are in effect having your nose rubbed in her bodily by-products,
fiance is not doing anything about it,
& her mother is giving you assignments to run errands & wait on her daughter & make yourself useful.

If this is really happening, all 3 of them are cooperating in your abasement.

(What I do not understand is why *you* haven't stood up for yourself, blown a gasket, tossed this girl out of your nice home, sent her back to her mother, dared your fiance to defy you, & *answered* your cell phone, telling her mother to call the child's ex, wipe the child's hiney herself, & stop harrassing you.)

& after all this...you're planning "a long talk".

If this is indeed a real-life scenario, if this is really happening, then guess what?

The game's over:
The 3 of them won.
you lost.

It's over, so you can either assume your place as low-man-on-the-totem-pole beneath these 3 people who are tormenting you, or leave them in your dust & go on with a more sane life, one in which you have a likelihood of being happy.

Think of this group as a wolf pack/family.

In a wolf pack, there's an alpha female & an alpha male, who run things.

& there's a bottom-of-the-totem-pole wolf who's subservient to *every other pack member*.

The other pack members eat the food she brings in, boss her around, humiliate, abase, & mistreat her.

No matter what she does, she doesn't get the benefit;
the alphas get the primary benefit, which they share with their favored pack members.

She comes in last for everything including babies:

I wouldn't bet on getting to enjoy a family of your own-
fiance needs your labor to keep his existing family functioning.

Talk to him all you want;
he'll let you, it's the easiest way of not making waves.

But try to get him to take action & see if anything happens.

When one party has everything he/she needs & his/her life is easier with the way things are, talking almost never results in changes.

An old friend used to tell me when I would get all bent out of shape over some unrealistic or overly idealistic project:

"Dang, Baby, that don't work. Do something that works."

I wish you the best.

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 6:57PM
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Whatever you do,dont give in to being the one that watches this girl while your BF is at work long hours. You think you kinda resent her now,if you end up being her sitter,you will not only resent her,you will resent your husband and everything will get much worse.
You are right,she is NOT your responsibility,and I agree with SWEEBY who said your BF's job is just an excuse so you have to do the dirty work. Dont buy into it!

    Bookmark   February 21, 2007 at 8:01PM
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It doesn't really sound to me like this girl is doing anything to bother you intentionally. It just seems to me that she doesn't know any better and she hasn't been taught any better. This should not exclude her from having a relationship with and being able to live with her dad. She needs him, esspecially given the fact that her mother is a terrible role model. If you don't want her in YOUR home, you should not be with her father. You should never ask her dad to kick her out of his home.

If you want her to change, be a role model for her. Take her for a makeover. Let her see how people treat her when she dresses well and smells nice. SHOW her how to behave. SHOW her how to take better care of herself.

I just don't think she is trying to be vindictive. She isn't taking care of herself because she doesn't know how to, not because she is trying to annoy you.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 6:48PM
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You know I always respect your advice,Raek...and while I agree this girl despretely needs someone to show her how to behave properly,I dont think it is fair or even right that OP does it when she hardly knows her. It may be seen as an insult or criticism coming from her.It is the girl's father's job to teach her.
Of course she isnt trying to annoy her on purpose,but if the father isnt telling her not to do these things as any sane parent would,then you can see where her annoyance and problem comes into play.
I'm definitely not blaming the child here,but both of her parent's including Op's fiance.
Anyways,another thread suggests Op has opted to not be with the father afterall.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2007 at 11:55PM
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I know what you are saying, but it just seems to me that silvergypsy has never really tried with the girl. That she just completely resents her existance in her home. I can understand this up to a point because the father didn't discuss it with her before he moved his daughter in. But my guess is that he know that silvergypsy wasn't going to go for it and he felt as if he was between a rock and a hard place. Wanting to have his daughter with him and not wanting to fight with his fiance about it.

I just think that when you start dating and get engaged to a man with a child, you need to accept that there are going to be times where the father needs to act in the best interest of his child and if that means moving the child into his home, that is what he needs to do and it shouldn't be a matter of asking permission.

I also believe that it is the father's responsibility to teach his daughter how to behave, but it is sometimes not easy for a man to talk to a girl about how to take care of womanly issues. It just seems like if it bothers you so much, there are things you can do to make things better.

I also wonder if she does the trash can thing because at one time or another, she may have lived in a home that was on a septic system and her mother may have taught her to throw the TP in the trash can to avoid over-filling the septic tank. It may just be a habit she has gotten into over the years that she needs a little positive reinforcement to be able to break. Maybe her chore could be to clean the bathroom, or whatever, but I just don't think she is trying to be annoying on purpose.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 9:12AM
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Can you imagine what silvergypsy is doing to this young girls self worth/self esteem by treating her as if she is disgusting? Spraying the Lysol on everything constantly? And if you think that silvergypsy feels this way now, imagine when she has her own beautiful new baby and this girl (who she thinks is so disgusting) wants to hold her new baby "sister".

silvergypsy, if you "choose" to marry your fiance' you need to understand that he cares about his daughter, and that she will always be his child. Treat others as you would want to be treated. Can you imagine someone finding you so disgusting, that they keep spraying Lysol constantly around you, and hiding their towels and such, fearful that you might touch it? I cannot imagine what you are doing to this young girls self worth as a human being.

And I am not saying I do not understand how you feel. I agree with the advice of the other posters. But your disgust is going to harm this child. Besides, it must be harmful for all of you to be breathing Lysol fumes that you have filled your environment with.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 11:22AM
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As I've mentioned on another thread, and as coolmama wrote, it looks like all of this is a moot point, because I will not be living with her or her father any more. But that doesn't help me from wanting to defend myself.

My ex's daughter has stayed with us many times in the past. When I first met him, she was 10. In the beginning, I *would* calmly explain to her that she needed to keep herself and her things clean, and that included numerous discussions about her hygiene habits. I took her shopping, tried to teach her to value her possessions and herself. Nothing changed.

In the meantime, every time she came to stay, my ex was working or sleeping. The bulk of spending time with her, helping with homework, having talks, and generally keeping her entertained fell to me. Not necessarily fair to her or me, but I went along with it.

Then, due to circumstances with the BM, my ex went a solid year with very little contact with his daughter, and I did not see her. When I started seeing her again in the past year, she'd grown up, and she's a completely different person. She's too old now for *either* of us to be comfortable the personal hygiene talks.

Her bad habits are NOT meant to be vindictive, and I never said they were. But I can't patiently fix her problems--I tried, and I failed, so it's up to her parents, and seeing as I've watched THEM fail at it for 3 years, I didn't see how my influence was going to help now. And it's not fair for me to have to live with it. I was too sneaky about the Lysol thing for either of them to notice it, and I'm as sure as I can be that I wasn't harming her with my disgust. But human filth is human filth. There's a reason why nurses wear gloves when they're dealing with bodily fluids. There's a reason why you're supposed to wash your hands after you use the toilet.

This is getting long but I want to tell a story from last year. His daughter came for a weekend, and when she came, she had a rash. I went and got medicine, inspected the rash, rubbed the medicine on the rash. A few days later, BM calls up and tells my ex that the rash is ringworm, and she and all 5 of her kids have it. My ex took his daughter to the doctor and got her on medicine. Her rash went away. But because BM didn't have the money to take her OTHER 4 kids to the doctor, my ex's daughter got ringworm over and over and OVER again that spring, from them not having been treated and passing it back to her

. In the meantime, my ex had put his daughter to bed in our bed, and who got ringworm? Both of US.

I never asked him to kick her out; what I said was that I realized *I* could not live with her. I recognized immediately that my ex had bitten off more than he can chew. This is not a case of him having a burning desire to be a full-time daddy. He has failed at being a PART-TIME parent to his daughter until now--he doesn't understand what it means to be a full-time custodial parent, the time or money or patience that it takes. He had been depending on me to do all the work for him, and when I didn't jump at the chance, he got mad. He's not mad at me for not accepting his daughter, or because I'm making him choose between us--he's mad because I am not doing his job FOR him.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 8:10PM
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I understand about the ringworm thing. It is VERY contagious,and will keep coming back until all parties are treated and all linens have been throughly washed. It is in fact,a fungus that comes from dirt,so it can make you feel dirty to have it.
I think you have made your case pretty clear,so i just want to ask,how are you doing emotionally?
You spoke of your husband as an ex,so I'm assuming he moved out?
No matter what your differences were,I just hope you are ok and arent getting too depressed over it. I'm sorry things couldnt have worked out better for you,but in THIS particular situation,I think you probably made the right move here.
It certainly does seem to me your husband wanted you to do "HIS JOB",and that is just completely unfair to you and his daughter.
I hope you are managing and doing well.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 8:29PM
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I guess everything wasn't that clear to begin with. I will tell you that I have dated a guy who had a daughter and he was not very good in the dicipline department. I resented him and his daughter both for it and I know that she and I are both better off now that I am no longer dating her dad. I just think some people are cut out and have the heart to be stepparents and some people are not. I think you and I are probably both better off dating men who do not have children, as are the children of the men we could potentially be involved with.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2007 at 10:15PM
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my thoughts in reading these posts are....
what a shame ... young girl without a role model.. bad habits that will follow her through life...and nobody to teach her how a young woman should take care of herself ...she will now be condemed to a life of low self esteem. I know its hard to love a child thats not yours but this girl obviously needed a woman to show her that she can be proud of herself. Yes her dad should have imput but in all reality she needed a woman to help her to become someone respectable. All I can say is that you must be a very self centered person ... not willing to share and teach a young person that she is a worthwhile cause. I hope she finds someone that will be there for her because as I see it unless she does she is going to live her worthless mothers life all over again. Too bad you couldnt see past her faults to take on the challenge it would have been a rewarding experience.

    Bookmark   February 24, 2007 at 10:42PM
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Now wait a minute, not everyone is cut out to be a stepparent. You are not OBLIGATED to take on someone else's problem--sometimes it's just too much. It certainly IS a shame that the girl does not have proper guidance, but what would be a BIGGER shame is if Silvergypsy stayed and lived her life miserable and in the process dragged down her fiance and stepdaughter out of some sort of "obligation."

She isn't married to him. She had the choice. Had they already been married, my advice would've certainly been different because then you ARE obligated, but the truth is that she did not HAVE to do it and thankfully realized that she COULD NOT do it before making her choice. (Yes, I realize that he broke up with her, but she was asking us before he did that....)

Thank goodness we all have a choice. Frankly I believe that there are a few more stepparents out there who should have made that choice before they married. This is the time for that--BEFORE you marry. You can't have it both ways. You can't condemn somebody for being a poor stepparent and then turn around and then condemn somebody for choosing not to be a stepparent once they know that it's not for them.

Yes, there are a lot of us out there and some of us try very hard to be good stewards of our spouse's children, but it's demanding, dirty, exhausting work most of the time and there is not ANY WAY I would blame anyone for not taking the job.

    Bookmark   February 25, 2007 at 6:49AM
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going bonkers, that was unfair and uncalled for. Did you actually READ the posts? Silvergypsy DID try, and tried very hard. Just how much of her time, energy, and emotions do you think is appropriate to spend when the PARENTS give zero support and guidance to their daughter? The PARENTS were willing to sit back and let Silvergypsy, (who is not even MARRIED to the father), do all of the work, and then sabotage that work by continuing to do NOTHING. Silvergypsy is the LEAST self centered person in this whole disaster.

    Bookmark   February 25, 2007 at 7:59AM
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Yes as a matter of fact I did read the posts... all of them! I am sorry if I sounded harsh but it was my first reaction. I guess my thoughts are about the girl that will probably never have anyone that cares about her. Its a vicious cycle that will continue unless someone puts a stop to it. Mom or Dad seem to be a lost cause. Its really a shame to hear about kids that are caught in the middle of adults who only care about themselves....

I cant be the only person who wonders how this generation of children got soo messed up... excessive drinking, overdosing, breaking the law, and showing total disrespect for themselves and their parents. How many school shootings have there been?? How many kids killing their parents? When are we gonna wake up and realize that even if its not your kid, if you sit back and let crazy stuff happen to innocent children then your part of the problem.

Sorry I just feel bad for the kid... after all she is the tragic story here...

    Bookmark   February 25, 2007 at 6:17PM
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I understand your first reaction, and I too wonder about things. But I wonder how this generation of PARENTS got so messed up. We know it's not the kids' fault, it's who is raising them. I watch my sisters and how they raise their kids and it astounds me. We grew up in the same house, and our parents did NOT raise us like my sisters are raising their kids. They get away with more in one week than we got away with our entire childhood! I can't figure it out!

    Bookmark   February 25, 2007 at 7:00PM
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I wonder about that, too. It's not the fault of the kids--it's their parents' fault. But then these kids turn into adults who are just as irresponsible. I wonder when these adults are going to realize that if they can't handle kids, they shouldn't HAVE them. I admitted I couldn't handle my situation and couldn't turn the child's life around--but why should it be mine (or society's) responsibility to take care of kids we were smart enough not to have?

    Bookmark   February 25, 2007 at 7:29PM
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I agree that the responsibility should lie with the person who makes the choice to have children. I wish it was that easy unfortunatly it isnt. That old saying.. "it takes a village to raise a child" is true. But times have changed and we are all too busy with our own lives we tend to turn a blind eye to things we are not responsible for.
And why should we care?? Ill tell you why... the children of today are the parents of tomorrow. Do you want your child,nieces,nephews, ect (who have been raised to be good people)to live in a world where they fear being shot at school, kidnapped out of their home or gunned down from a drive by?? Well it will happen, it happens now daily. This is what past generations have done by not caring because it wasnt their "responsibilty".

The big question should be what can "I" as one person do to change things?? There is something, even if its small, that everyone of us can do. Its all of our responsibility.

Sorry if this kinna got off-track...good luck

    Bookmark   February 26, 2007 at 11:41AM
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I'm coming into this posting late but, WOW! I have to say something.

First, it is not bad or selfish to not want to deal with this.
It is not bad or selfish to leave now.
This may be the most grown-up decision you ever make.
If you stay, do not stay out of guilt.
You need to leave if you cannot handle in a positive manner, the situations that have happened.
REMEMBERif you stay and have children then realize you cannot deal with this situation anymore"Amy" will be related to your children, therefore she and everyone related to her will be in your life forever.

    Bookmark   March 22, 2007 at 1:28PM
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I think it's wrong for him to make such a drastic financial decision without your vote too. i think it's wrong for him to make such a life changing decision without you feeling comfortable with it. I think him being a clean freak and not putting his foot down on her disgusting habits is absolutely disrespectful towards you.. especially since you are the one cleaning it up. If he is the absolute love of your life and you think you can't live without him, then i would suggest (and maybe this is crazy) getting a house with a connected inlaw suite situation and putting her in it!Maybe then you can have "family time" when it is right for you. i know i will get criticized on that one.. ok it does sound crazy lol..but this child doesn't seem too concerned with anyone else, does she? Kids aren't stupid. They know what they're doing.If you can afford it, get her counseling and keep her busy with summer programs. In the long run, kids like a little discipline and order, whether they realize it or not. You've got to start all over with this girl and decide to make her new upbringing a project you both agree to or.. well.. RUN!!! The only reason i'm not starting my input out with "RUN!!!" is because i live with my boyfriend and he is the sweetest, warmest, kindest boyfriend ever. However, when his girls disrespect me he puts his foot down because he knows i'm taking on alot. They are over every other weekend and the only reason i am taking on this situation (not wanting kids AT ALL)is because he deserves my love and attention. He is all the things most women crave in a boyfriend and i love him dearly. We have a great relationship, so i put up with life being not what i planned on. Having said that, if we were to break up, THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY I WOULD DATE SOMEONE WHO HAD KIDS, unless they were adults and out of the house and normal and excessively kind to me. i stopped mid way through your story and said a prayer for you.. and i'm not even religious. If he can't make this situation easier for you, and you still want to see him, then do so, from the luxury of your own clean, dreamy place. If he can't compromise, let him clean up his own mess. We've got to stop supporting men who can't support the things we hold dear.

    Bookmark   March 28, 2007 at 7:45PM
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