Henrybuilt cabinet damaged by BlueStar range

axxis_roseMay 16, 2014

I'm cross-posting this here in the kitchens forum in the hopes that as many people as possible see it. Forgive me if this is not the correct etiquette!

This is a long tale of woe. In a nutshell: my BlueStar oven created a burn mark on my Henrybuilt cabinet door (see photo below), and BlueStar refuses to take any responsibility for a faulty product.

In March 2007, I purchased a BlueStar Range from Trevor at Eurostoves. I'd read great things about BlueStar on this forum, especially about the burners.

Indeed, the burners have been great, but I've waged a five year-battle to keep the door in working order that has made me regret my decision to buy a BlueStar, having spent dozens of hours trying to get BlueStar to handle this problem. Here's what has happened in annotated form:

In October 2009, the door (#1) seized up, and couldn't be opened. Others on this forum have had the same problem. BlueStar was very accommodating and replaced that door (#2) in November 2009.

Things were fine until April 2013, when the door (#2) seized up. I reported the problem and the BlueStar customer relations person told me that there was a problem with the make of that door, and that BlueStar had manufactured a new door. In May 2013, I received the new door (#3) and was unable to install it. I informed BlueStar that the notch hinge receiver on the oven seemed to be worn down and so it was not allowing the door to fit in properly.

A week later, on May 16th, 2013, BlueStar's contracted repair service, Elkay, came and claimed that the door itself was faulty, and that it in fact had two different hinges. BlueStar sent a new door (#4) which Elkay installed.

On October 10th 2013, the oven was on for an hour and a half, and we noticed that there were burn marks on the cabinetry next to the oven. It appeared there was a slight gap in the closed door, which released enough heat to burn the cabinet. I reported the incident to BlueStar, which said it was sending a replacement door to Elkay to be installed.

On December 2nd, 2013: Elkay tried to install a new oven door (#5), but confirmed that the problem that we had initially reported--the receiving hinge on the over (not the door itself--was worn down.

So, with that saga seemingly over, we asked BlueStar to compensate us for the damaged cabinetry, and engaged in a series of frustrating communiques with Mike Trapp, the president of Prizer Painter Stove Works, which produces BlueStar, who surprisingly claimed that we had been using the oven with the door open, which was never the case, and doesn't make any sense.

On January 2nd, 2014, Elkay fixed the hinge receiver (not the door) and successfully installed door (#5).

From January to February 20th, we initiated at least 8 attempts to engage Mike Trapp via email or phone call, and he repeatedly said he'd get back to us, but never did.

Perhaps we're stuck in that lost zone between a product company and a repair company that didn't do the job properly, but, ultimately, it was the product that has repeatedly failed. I am not sure what else can be done at this point, to get BlueStar to face its responsibility in all this, and get a straight answer on whether it will compensate us for damages.


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I have no suggestions - just wanted to say "yikes".

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 12:48PM
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Bummer! Sorry you've had such a frustrating experience. The reality is that there's a lot of "value engineering" in appliances these days - low-mid brands seem to have many lemons. We got a BlueStar knowing that - at that price point - we were not guaranteed a trouble-free product. Luckily our only warranty issue was resolved quickly and easily, but it sounds like your entire range would need to be replaced...and the cabinet too :( .

I hope there is still some recourse for you.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 1:09PM
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It sounds like you have a working oven door now. Save yourself a lot of aggravation and just buy yourself a new cabinet door and be done with it.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 1:36PM
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Sophie Wheeler

Did you do extra deep cabinets/counters? It seems that the oven door is recessed a bit from a standard installation. Was a heat shield ordered and installed by your cabinet company?

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 1:37PM
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I'm so sorry. I really feel your frustration.
Thompson Creek (DC/MD/VA company that guarantees their products for life) installed gutters on my house. I saved for 3 years to get something with a done once, done right, warranty. The gutters ruined my porch ceiling. Down to rot. They were funneling water underneath my porch ceiling within a month.

After 4 different attempts to caulk the problem (white caulk on a black roof) by their contractors, a company rep came out and looked things over. THREE months later, which is now over a year, I received an email from their local VP that said the damage to the ceiling in my porch room was not the due to any leak in the Thompson Creek gutters. Huh? I didn't have a leak, nor do I have a proch room. I had NO gutters on the whole house for over 5 years before these, which was better than these puppies.

It's amazing how between one company, it's so-called "authorized" installers wearing the company's logo, one can't get anything close to the product advertised or the service promised.

Is there any way Henrybuilt would be able to replace your door in the meanwhile? It would probably be faster, as you're going to be in a Bluestar fight for a long time.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 1:50PM
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That is more than cosmetic damage, that is a fire hazard. Don't have your lawyer send them a letter, sue them. It will be resolved more quickly than you think.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 2:17PM
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Boy, I feel for you. I don't know if this will help, but quite a number of manufacturers spec that the crack between the door and the range body MUST be 1/4" or so in front of the cabinet doors - but Bluestar doesn't seem to.

I would keep harping on the worn out hinge part and that the door(s) and hinges weren't replaced at the same time. Also, if you haven't been using some form of writing, you should start. E-mails and letters make a permanent record. I've found call logs of when you called and what was discussed or promised by either side to be invaluable.

Plus what weisman said.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 2:52PM
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So it's been 7 years now, ditch the range and be done with Blue Star. If this is truly a fire hazard, money/replacements is the least of your worries.

What did you pay for the range?

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 3:33PM
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thanks for letting us know about this product liability. Let the company know you posted in a public forum.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 5:57PM
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Wow...I also have a blue star stove, which I love. And yes, I have had problems as well. My burners needed new wiring. My broiler currently does not work. I need to call the repairman. It is 3 years old.

After my kitchen remodel, I purchased top of the line appliances. Now I realize that these appliances require maintenance. It's probably like a fancy car...they need extra loving care.

I agree that you hate the burned mark. What would be worse is what if there was a fire in your kitchen. It does look like your stove needs to be pushed out a little to prevent this from happening again. That's what I would do.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 5:59PM
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Wow that's pretty scary. The lawyer route sounds like a lot of expense for a cabinet door, unfortunately. At a minimum though, I'd file a complaint/report with the consumer product safety commission - I think that's the agency that enforces recalls and such for defective/dangerous products.

    Bookmark   May 16, 2014 at 10:46PM
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Sorry you have had so many problems. It's been a great deal of stress for you. I have had my 48 inch BlueStar for over two years and I absolutely love it. I would not have any other range. I haven't had any problems with it at all and I enjoy cooking with it.

It looks as though your cabinet door is pretty much right up against the range. It may be just how the photograph depicts things. If your cabinet door is indeed that close I would question why your cabinet company installed them that way. I have a slight buffer between my range and my base drawers.....a piece of wood trim that looks like cabinet face frame. None of my cabinetry heats up at all when my range is on, and sometimes I slow cook for hours in my oven. My oven door can get quite warm and even somewhat hot at times depending on how high a temp I have it set at, but my cabinetry does not get hot.

It sounds as though the possibility exists that the repair company could be at fault. It may be entirely possible that they had done an incorrect installation of the new range door(s), which then resulted in burned cabinetry. Or they may not be at fault. It's hard to say at this point.

We had an "expert" contractor once install a barn entry door that had a slight gap in one spot when closed. The door did not make a tight fit all the way down. It had a slight gap in the middle. My husband fixed it. The contractor did not know how to properly adjust the door and jam. The door itself was fine. My point is, there are many "repair" people or "experts" who are not very good or very knowledgeable.

I am not implying that your range didn't initially have a worn out or bad door. It sounds like it did. However, the fiasco you have gone through since then may not necessarily be due to having a bad range or that BlueStar is at fault. It needs to be sorted out, and until then it isn't really fair to blame the manufacturer before finding out if Elkay or your range installer didn't have some hand in all these problems.

I fail to see where starting a lawsuit is going to benefit anyone in this case. I cannot even imagine going there over a cabinet door and aggravation with repairs. You think what you have gone through so far is aggravating? Try the expense and stress of a lawsuit. There is no proof at this point that the range is "dangerous" or who is responsible without really looking into the facts and getting all those involved to stop the finger pointing.

That said, if you're really that unhappy with the range and won't be comfortable using it regardless of who may be at fault, then it is time to buy a different range and a new cabinet door and move on.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 1:19AM
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Thanks to everyone who has commented. I really appreciate the supportive community of this forum. In answer to some of your questions, there is no issue with my cabinet installation, counter depth or position of the range. For several years, there were no problems at all. Then the first door seized up, there were door and hinge problems, and then there was a door installation problem, which may or may not have been caused by a faulty hinge, that created a gap on one side and burned the cabinet. BlueStar's top person gave a bizarre and dismissive assessment--that I was using the oven with the door open which caused the burn mark on the cabinet, and there was no way they would pay for a cabinet door replacement. This is just nonsensical and patronizing. I'm glad several of you still love your BlueStar products. I guess when you get a good one, it's great. When you get a bad one, good luck. I'm not sure if my oven is a fire hazard now that the door gap has been fixed--while the side cabinets do get warm there haven't been any new burn marks. I'll look into pulling it out a bit. But, 5 oven doors later, I no longer love my BlueStar and cannot recommend it in good faith to anyone. Recently, 3 friends renovated their kitchens and asked if they should get my oven. I had to sadly tell them no.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 10:19AM
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Sorry for your saga axxis_rose. It's terrible when one of the things you (presumably) were looking forward to most becomes an ongoing thorn in your side.

We've got a BS on order. DH was in total charge of choosing the range. He's read here and elsewhere all the pros and cons. I initially wanted no part of such a powerhouse, but I've warmed to the idea and I'm quite excited about what he'll cook on it. Wish us well.

I'm curious with other people saying that the BS in the photo looks like it's close or could be pulled out etc. if others with a BS could post a pic of the same spot, where the oven meets the cabinet? (Especially sandy808) Or the placement in relation to the side cabinets in general. I'd like to avoid any possibility of similar issues.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 11:16AM
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cal_quail, I'm quite certain that if you have a proper door on the oven you won't have the scorching issue. But that is the trick--getting a working door and hinge, as those problems have been well-documented on this forum. Hope all goes well with yours.


    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 11:41AM
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Here is how mine is installed. The range is against the tile backsplash and the door vents clear the cabinet doors.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 12:15PM
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Yep, looks exactly like mine, though it might be hard to see in the photo I posted above.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 12:37PM
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So I guess I missed that the range is finally fixed. So this post is about leveraging by taking it to the internet to get a new cabinet door? I would just get the door, forward the receipt and if it is not reimbursed you could always go to small claims and hope they pay up from there. I think all these companies have disclaimers though, that they aren't responsible for covering any costs other than their own parts.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 12:40PM
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This is really a shame. And no price can be put on the aggravation. As some others have suggested, I too would get a new range of another brand, and a replacement front from Henrybuilt, and try to put the whole thing behind me. Just cause the aggravation will eat you up, and cost you more emotionally than getting Bluestar to make things right.

Having said that, this thread caused me to run to my kitchen to look at how my range is installed. While I do not have any kind of buffer or wood trim that Sandy808 talked about, and my range is abutting directly onto the cabinetry, my range is pulled out significantly. There is about 1/4" of the range's side in front of the cabinetry, and that is not including the oven door which sticks out significantly from the cabinetry. I never noticed this before, but with this thread I see the purpose of it.

Having said that, it is still no excuse for Bluestar's poor response, and that not only has the door been problematic, but the hinges too. That's is unacceptable. BTW, I have a 10-year-old Dacor range (in white yet!); the burners are not high-powered, it is not attractive. But I cook everything fine, and the oven door never gets hot, even when the oven is at 500 degrees. There is no reason for a manufacturer to produce a range where the door is hot. It is so easy to insulate the door, if they wanted to.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 12:53PM
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Suing Bluestar is the means to an end. If you send Mr. Trapp a certified letter, I promise you he will place it in the "circular file" immediately and fugetaboudit. If Mr. Trapp is served with a lawsuit, he drops everything he is doing, calls his attorney, and asks how to make this go away.

His attorney will explain that it is more cost effective to buy a replacement door than it is to keep him on the phone for another 10 minutes. Mr. Trapp may or may not be a nice guy, but he is a businessman. As such, he owes it to his stockholders to deal with this in the most cost effective manner, right or wrong.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 3:38PM
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Except it's cheaper to just replace a cabinet door than to engage an attorney.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 4:16PM
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How a lawsuit is going to solve this is beyond meā€¦talk about aggravation!

Have you contacted Henrybuilt to see if they can produce a replacement door?

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 4:33PM
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It would cost more to go to small claims court than to just buy a new door.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 10:27PM
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I'm not suggesting that court is a good option, but small claims only costs the filing fee. In San Francisco, it's between $25 and $100 to file.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 11:19PM
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Thank you Axxis Rose for posting this. You have fairly and factually reported to this community of the reprehensible treatment you received. You have done everything right.

Small claims may or may not be the most appropriate venue for your claim and that is for an attorney to decide. Most lawyers would, if they chose to take this case, not charge you, but would take this on a contingency basis. That would not necessarily be the best avenue for you, at all.

The point is that you have alerted this forum of your troubles with Bluestar and the warning is most certainly worthy of your efforts in posting this message. Thank you.

    Bookmark   May 17, 2014 at 11:36PM
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Sophie Wheeler

The cast iron cooktop portion is the only part of the range that has a 10 year warranty. The rest of the range, inclung the range door, has a one year warranty. Having a company that responds to an issue 6 years past the warranty expiration isn't poor customer service by any metric in any way that you define it.

The fact that their warranty has always excluded incidental damages, as ALL manufacturer warranties do from Day 1, doesn't seem to be acknowledged here. If this has happened the second day you owned the range, they still wouldn't owe you a cabnet door, much less 6 years later. They might have reimbursed you asa customer service gesture during the range's infancy, but they are never oblgated to do so.

Chevy won't replace your garage door if an issue with the throttle cable causes you to crash through it, even if you are under their bumper to bumper warranty period. That's what your automobile insurance is for. Now, if enough incidences of that issue are reported, they may issue a recall. But, even under the recall, your remedy is limited to the repair of the defective part only. They still aren't gonna fix the garage door that you crashed through. You can join a class action suit if there are enough people who crashed tnrough their garage doors, and in the end get a coupon for $1500 off your next purchase, but the time and aggravation and end result are probably a net loss to you.

The fact is that PP has gone well above their written obligation to try to make things right. They have more than fulfilled the letter of their one year warranty coverage, they've fulfilled the spirit of it too, well past their obligation to do so. Spending $300 to buy a new cabinet door isn't high on anyone's list of things that they'd want to do for sure. Expecting a company to pay for incidental damages at all, under any circumstances, is setting yourself up for disappointment. Asking for it 6 years after any obligation to you has expired is a really big reach.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 8:43AM
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"Except it's cheaper to just replace a cabinet door than to engage an attorney."


Thanks for agreeing with my point.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 11:22AM
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Let's continue your automobile analogy. In many states there are "lemon laws" which require the replacement/refund of a vehicle when its been returned to the dealer so many times for the same problem.

That is much more analogous in this situation. The OP has repeatedly had the same problem with the door and has repeatedly sought a fair resolution.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 11:27AM
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Hollysprings wrote:

"The fact is that PP has gone well above their written obligation to try to make things right. They have more than fulfilled the letter of their one year warranty coverage, they've fulfilled the spirit of it too, well past their obligation to do so. Spending $300 to buy a new cabinet door isn't high on anyone's list of things that they'd want to do for sure. Expecting a company to pay for incidental damages at all, under any circumstances, is setting yourself up for disappointment. Asking for it 6 years after any obligation to you has expired is a really big reach."

Well put.

I'll hazard a wild guess that cabinet damage did not happen in just one cooking cycle.

Taking the time to notice the incipient darkening of the cabinet and simply sliding the stove slightly away from the wall would have mitigated the damage even if the leaking gasket or door hinges were never repaired.

This is how our range sits.

No matter what happens to the oven door, there is no way the cabinet fronts could ever get burned... and we just have cheap off the shelf Home Depot assemble-it-yourself cabinets.

Our BlueStar had a problem right out of the box. A wire had become pinched between two metal pieces during assembly and when the oven was turned on, it burned out the half of the dual thermo valve that sends power to the oven glowplug.

I described the problem.
They sent the part.
I installed the part.
Problem solved.

BlueStar stoves aren't rocket science. They aren't magic and they aren't perfect. They're simple well designed robust efficient cooking tools.

In my opinion, it's my shared responsibility as an owner to assume an active role by working along ~with~ the company as a partner to resolve any issues, and not to make things worse by becoming their adversary.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 11:36AM
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First of all, automobile companies are often held responsible for consequential damages - just look at the GM recall and the lawsuits for people who have died as a result of the defective ignition switch. Had the OPs house burned down as a result of a defective range, there likely would be liability on the part of the manufacturer.

On the other hand, all we're talking about here is a charred cabinet door worth a few hundred dollars. Even the most desperate lawyer would not take such a case on a contingency basis. Sure the OP could file herself in small claims court, but the time and cost and aggravation don't seem worth it.

As I said in an earlier post, it appears that the range door at this point is finally fixed. IMHO, the OP should buy a new cabinet door and move on.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 11:38AM
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Reading the history and seeing the picture, what is suggested to me is a ONE TIME heat exposure one day when the (yet) defective door did not close and seal, leading the oven to produce more and more abnormal heat, because it was losing heat and the sensor inside never could get "up to temp" since it was going out the door crack.

This in turn is the fault of the defective door.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 11:43AM
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>>"Except it's cheaper to just replace a cabinet door than to engage an attorney."


Thanks for agreeing with my point. Not agreeing at all.

Your point was that the company would not waste money on legal fees fighting her case but would just cut a check for a door upon receiving a lawsuit notice because it would be more cost effective.

My point was that it would be cheaper for the OP to just absorb the cost of a new door than to hire a lawyer.

Blue Star probably has in-house legal staff anyway. So their being able to drag out her suit would only cost her even more if she wanted to pursue.

Small claims on the other hand is cheap DIY. They probably wouldn't show so she wins by default -- he is going to fly in for this? (Maybe SC is just for local conflicts?) Probably wouldn't pay up anyway.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 1:08PM
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I agree with Hollysprings. If this was a 1 year warranty, the company has exercised a lot of good will beyond their legal obligation. So, she asks for a new cabinet door too. They said no.

They always have disclaimers protecting themselves. It would have to be serious damages affecting a lot of people or gross negligence to get anywhere in court.

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 1:19PM
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There is no attorney that would take this as a contingency case...maybe if the house had burned to the ground and you could prove that it was the stoves fault, but certainly not for a cabinet door.

To the OP....back when you initially had trouble with the range did you speak with Trevor about getting this resolved? After many years dealing with Trevor and Eurostove they have great service, surprised that he would not have had a tech at your house immediately to fix any trouble you were having

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 1:28PM
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"Chevy won't replace your garage door if an issue with the throttle cable causes you to crash through it, even if you are under their bumper to bumper warranty period. That's what your automobile insurance is for."

I'm not a lawyer and it seems that Hollysprings is also not a lawyer.

Let's say the faulty throttle cable caused the car to lurch forward and that resulted in the death of the three children playing in the driveway?

Automobile manufacturer have any liability?


    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 1:30PM
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beautybutdebtfree writes:

"...the (yet) defective door did not close and seal..."

From looking closely at the picture the darkened area is in the upper middle of the side of the door, while the upper corner and along the top of the door are fine.

When an oven door doesn't close all the way, the first part of the door to leak is right at the top and not in the middle of the side. In my opinion, this indicates that the fault was actually in the gasket which did not seal in the middle of the side, but yet sealed at the top where most of the hot air would escape.

In any repair, the best approach is to properly diagnose the cause of the problem, as it can save both time and money.

This post was edited by tinyhomebuilder on Sun, May 18, 14 at 14:20

    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 2:19PM
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OP here. Again, thanks for the lively discussion. It certainly gives me food for thought.

-beautybutdebtfree: you are correct, this was a ONE TIME heat exposure that caused the burn, due to a poorly installed door AND gasket problem (good catch, tiny homebuilder). The door, hinges, and gasket all had to be replaced because the door could not close properly, leading to heat escaping from the left side. My cabinet would not be burned if the door had sealed properly. Perhaps Elkay should have noticed the gap when they installed the door. I'll say it again: it has nothing to do with the position of the stove. Really.

-I should mention that the severe door issues I had were not the ONLY problems I've had with my stove. There have been ignition/burner issues as well.
-early on I did engage Trevor at Eurostoves, but I think he doesn't carry BlueStar any longer. Plus, who can keep up with such a long, sad tale with so many door replacements? At a certain point a distributor can't help any longer.
-I think I've put in the requisite time and patience with this appliance. However, it has turned out to be more high maintenance than I expected. I no longer think it's cute when it's not working properly. I didn't choose BlueStar thinking I'd have to baby it and constantly ask for help caring for it.


    Bookmark   May 18, 2014 at 3:09PM
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this is something you can file for in small claims court. I think you should. Bluestar will settle with you quickly because court claims are public record and they may not want this info in the public record.

Those that admonish the poster for complaining are incorrect. This is a legitimate complaint. This is America. Nothing gets done that does not have to get done contractually. Large companies are just plain not nice.

    Bookmark   May 20, 2014 at 9:51PM
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Update from the OP:

In a nice turn of events, Henrybuilt has offered to refinish or replace the cabinet door at no charge. Henrybuilt forever.


    Bookmark   May 21, 2014 at 4:10PM
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It's more than a legitimate complaint about the quality of products being made and the irresponsibility of some companies. But with an expired warranty ... OP was lucky they fixed the door. They do not guarantee products for very long.

Henrybuilt on the other hand is awesome to pick up the slack of another company. They are keenly aware of who keeps them in business. Maybe split it with them, or pay for the whole service anyway.

    Bookmark   May 21, 2014 at 4:25PM
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Just because something isn't covered under warranty doesn't mean a company isn't liable. There are other sources of liability.

Hooray for Henrybuilt. That is really going above and beyond! If I were the original poster, I might even start a whole new thread about how awesome they are!

    Bookmark   May 21, 2014 at 4:49PM
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I just wanted to add my similar experience with my Bluestar. After about 5 months of ownership and several uses of the oven, I noticed the discolored door yesterday when my wife was baking cookies. I opened my pullout next to the stove to find the side of the door scorched. This appears to be slightly different from OP's issue. The scorching is next to the louvered toe kick. There's no door seal to blame here. There's a 3/8" air gap between the edge and the toe kick.

One of the concerns I saw about the Bluestar when researching was that the door, knobs, and handle get very hot. I do not find that to be the case for me. I find these to be acceptably warm. It was the toe kick that I noticed was insanely hot. I was concerned that maybe an internal heat shield or insulation was missing. After posting to the kitchen forum, I was lead to this thread. I guess it sounds like this is a standard "feature" for the Bluestar.

Yes, the stove is not a rocketship. That simplicity was a benefit for us. With that simplicity also comes a lack of engineering. That's not a total knock against Bluestar. It just seems like Bluestar employs more craftsmen/artists who put out a really nice looking product with some killer features than engineers/scientists who run tests and further improve the design.

Pulling out the heavy stove to protrude from all cabinetry is a fix, but it's just a bandage. We followed all of the installation instructions to the tee. The stove exterior surfaces should not get that hot. We love the open burners and will have to learn to deal with the quirks of the range at this point.

    Bookmark   January 27, 2015 at 9:57PM
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Bluestar 30" RNB. Same issue as EcoCheap, the same location. See the brownish area on the edge? The pullout front was only installed a couple of weeks ago.

Otherwise, I love this range. I haven't contacted Bluestar about this. I would be interested in a fix if possible.

This post was edited by feisty68 on Wed, Jan 28, 15 at 19:11

    Bookmark   January 28, 2015 at 7:10PM
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