Will you please help with a small kitchen?

kitchen_mamanJanuary 3, 2013

I haven't had much luck over at the kitchen forums, and actually a quit rude post. I am really disheartened.

I just wanted lighting help...

We are undertaking a renovation of our lovely 1150 sq foot rambler. I posted about back in October. We are so excited. The house has amazing bones. Of course, we are updating the kitchen but we are not expanding it. It is a really decent size and anything bigger would be silly in the house. It is about 110 sq feet.

I did buy another 36 inch stove. There was a 36 inch in there (against the wall) with a small oven and storage. I bake a lot, baking most of our meals, and I really need more than one oven. So I bought a 36 inch AGA legacy so I would have three oven spaces. I know that my pans will fit, I have already checked it. The microwave will go on the counter space under the large wall cabinet. The large space next to the fridge is a much needed pantry. I am using a salvaged door for added character.

The bar area is drawn wrong. There will be no raised bar. It will all be counter height for workspace. I spent two years living in the kitchen thinking about where I would put everything, and how I could make the space best for the family.

I would really like your opinions. Of course, if you all hate it, then I will reconsider. Of course, space is a premium. Ther isn't a lot one can do here and I will have about triple the space I had before we ripped out the kitchen. I originally asked for lighting help, but then was told that my kitchen would just be dark and that it was too awkward, among other things.

The kitchen will be open to the dining room that will have a wall of windows-west facing and the great room-east facing. The window in the kitchen is actually longer than drawn and faces north.

Thank you

I was really excited about my new spaces.

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Hi kitchenmaman(I read your post from Kitchens)--36 inch AGA legacy !!!!!!! You fool HOW COULD YOU, please arrange for me to take it off your hands immediately !!!!

I have only one thing to say: Undercabinet Lighting in addition to ceiling lights & pendants. You will not regret it.

Philips eW profile LED bars--direct wire. I love the light, I did not bother with dimmers. I didn't bring the cabinets to the ceiling :( because of the cost so I am putting florescent lights(T5) above the cabinets.
I will post photos for you....

You will be baking soon BUT I know not with this guy (me neither)

    Bookmark   January 3, 2013 at 6:46PM
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Eatrealfood! Thank you. Needed that smile. You think I should have pendants over the area next to the fridge? I was think of adding some small lights there. Also two small light over the "bar" area...

I cannot wait to cook with my AGA. I chose it mostly for the baking, but partly for looks. I was first looking at the Verona, and happened upon the AGA. Once I looked at the ovens, I was in love.

Right now we are renting an inl law suite, maybe 500 sq ft, in our neighborhood. We only have two pot hot plate (and it takes an hour to cook pasta) a convection microwave from the 90s and a small counter top oven. I have been very creative about baking! I tell you our place feels like a palace when we visit!

    Bookmark   January 3, 2013 at 8:30PM
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Do you wash dishes by hand? If so, where will you dry them? I'm trying to figure out where you will be doing your prep. The prep area is going to need the best lighting. If you plan on using the island for a prep area, I'm not sure if pendants are going to give you enough light without shadows.

    Bookmark   January 3, 2013 at 8:45PM
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Dekeoboe, the dish drawer is actually the really awkwardly drawn cabenit on the left. It is a paneled tall fisher paykel single dish drawer. I am pretty sure the drawer below will be bigger. We do wash plastics by hand. They will dry to the left of the sink, next to the microwave. I imagine most of my dry prep will be done on the strip next to the fridge. I will do some between the oven and the sink. The trash is a pull out between the sink and the stove and there is a cutting board in the drawer above it

I really think I am going to put a strip of under cabinet lighting on the upper between the sink and the stove and then look to put two to four lights above the "bar" area and the prep area next to the fride.

Eatrealfood, the two uppers Flanking the stove are actually 36 inches. We built up the molding to make it look like it goes all the way up. I went with a 42 in on the other side for a little extra storage and because we are planning to put the microwave under there. I might have to give it up for budget. That AGA was a real splurge!

Since the pendant I chose doesn't seem to be popular, what do you think of this one?

Here is a link that might be useful: Another option for over the sink...

    Bookmark   January 3, 2013 at 9:09PM
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I'm glad the photo of mr.preservative made you smile.
You sounded TORMENTED like I did after my first few posts.

Paraphasing from your post... "WHAT 24" of counter !!!!" you can't "prep" on the other counter(fridge side). Well I had about 24" counter between sink & fridge. I "used precious real-estate" to put in a 30.5" sink. Since I added a 7ft counter on the other side of the room that's where I prep. The room is not so big that I can't carry the washed veggies across the room to my BEAUTIFUL 7ft counter. Would I like a prep sink there ? SURE !!! Ain't gonna happen since I couldn't add or move pipes.

I think 2 pendants would look nice by the fridge. Or some nice flush mount "schoolhouse" type lights or older style lights. Put the UCL on 2 separate lines, one switch on each side. Have the electrician wire for the ceiling lights and take your time choosing them, there are so many nice vintage style lights available. Do a search internet search for gardenweb Philips eW profile LED bars. The lighting forum(davidtay)has great information on UCL. It's easy to get confused, I did. The Philips LED's are an easy install. The transformer is built in and you do not need special wiring like the low voltage lights. Get an estimate from one of the suppliers and then call the company I used--Farralane's. Another poster oldbat2be gave me this vendor. These light bars are not cheap, but I don't believe in cheap anyway. I need light,man.

Here are my other suggestions:
1)make all base cabinets draws, 1 deep two drawer base and 3 drawers for the rest. You will love drawers, no more bending for the big stock pot buried in the back.
2)Since you have a large pantry next to the fridge how about making the upper on the sink side an open cupboard-not shelves but an open cabinet ? Don't obsess about dust, things don't get dusty if you use them. And a quick wipe with a microfiber mitt does the trick. You have great ventilation. I'm thinking that you vent to the outside right ? You can keep mason jars filled with beautifully colored beans/rice and your flours there. Also rectangle baskets hold a lot and look so warm and homey(the container store has nice baskets). One of the best things I did was put in an open cupboard(everything is accessible) and small narrow pantry. I couldn't fit a nice big closed pantry like yours. I did this AND I do not have the ability to vent to the outside. I love your idea of using an old door on the pantry. I know this is heresy but I can't vent to the outside. The mason jars help me keep track of everything that I buy often.

I have been using the simple GW button but can only post one at a time.I need to read the instructions again while I have flkr open...

You are renting about the same size space I live in :) so no AGA for me here...I'm still using my mr.magic chef until I can do more research...

    Bookmark   January 3, 2013 at 9:23PM
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Hi Kitchenmaman
Is there any way to fit a standard either 18" or 24" DW instead of the dishdrawers ? The only reason I say that is that dish drawers make me nervous and I like the size of a upright DW.

Here is a link that might be useful: dish drawer

    Bookmark   January 3, 2013 at 9:37PM
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Philips eW powercore LED bars:

basic under cabinet outlet(not plugmold)VERY HANDY:

partially unpacked/stocked open cupboard between 2 glass uppers:

    Bookmark   January 3, 2013 at 11:21PM
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welcome to here! I had to go read on kitchens to see who posted (and be sure it wasn't me - lol!).

Often those who do design kitchens are very stuck in their world of those who will have lots of space - and money. pal doesn't usually tho. If they live/work in places like NY or Boston they are more used to tiny kitchens.

When they ask for a layout, they are asking for a floor diagram to scale with all measurements given - wall lengths, windows, doors, cab spaces, aisle widths, size of appliances etc.
From that they can see how every single inch is used - and help get the best functional use out of those inches. putting it on graph paper to scale is the best way to do that. I've asked for that on a few threads recently. It's hard to give layout help w/o a layout. Not usually needed for a lighting help post - except to see where lighting might be needed and why.

So, how big is the 'bar' space? the counter to the left of the sink? to the right of it? the sink? width of pantry. we can assume it's about 24 deep? the aisle between sides?

I do agree with having all drawers. And you will have very few - but you're used to that - right?

I also am skitish about the dw drawers. they are expense and there have been many on the forums who have had problems with them. And many who do like them. I'd like them if I could afford them and afford to replace if they died. I can't.

lights - I'm not much on lights. I have a skylight, 2 florescent (oblong) fixtures (staying) and 1 ugly, plain ceiling light over the sink (that'll be going in a few months). I do have a plug in 'bar' lite for under a cab and one on batteries. (not up yet tho).

Have you thought about those recessed light fixtures for the center of the ceiling area? To give working light?

The pendants are very pretty but won't give a lot of working light. If I were putting one of those up it'd be over the sink with an under cab light between sink and stove. If I couldn't put in those recessed lites I'd go for a round flush ceiling lite in the center ceiling - probably 2 of them for balance (one closer to the stove and one by pantry / fridge). Of the pendants I like the first one best (looks) but the wattage on the 2nd (more lite).

Have I covered everything? what will be the counter top? flooring?

Not all of us have big kitchens - my kitchen is only about 10 sq ft bigger than yours but I'm in about 1400 total sq ft too. It's plenty big for me. And for the past 14 yrs I cooked on that little strip of counter along the front of the sink. That's what I had. Only me tho and I seldom really do anything I'd call 'cooking'.

oh, since you don't have much space, will you be putting dishes in the over the mw cab or on a shelf in the pantry? or you could use a drawer on the other side. I'd rather have mine in a drawer. Do you need the full length pantry area or could you do drawers on the lower half? food stuff can be stored in those also. Will you put some ROTS in the pantry (full or partial in height)? That'd keep you from losing items in the back areas of the shelves.

regular pots/pans in a drawer is a great way to go. If you have a huge pot can it go in the pantry? Any storage space for things like that out of the kitchen area? (like a mudroom/laundry?).

I wouldn't do open shelves or cabs because I do get a lot of dust here and desert dirt seeping in - everywhere!

Hope we're more help to you here. I think others will chime in too.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 5:11AM
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two thoughts--
If you lower the bar to counter height you will have more work space. Visually it would also open up the kitchen. The negative is that the mess could be seen more easily. Still, it would accept counter height stools and you would not be closed in.
Second, not sure what is on the other side of the wall next to your exciting stove--but if you can get rid of that wall altogether or at least down to counter height. Your cabinet can have a nice finish on the side. Again, this will visually open up the space.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 5:49AM
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i think you must lower down it to couter height....

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 6:12AM
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Hi Kitchenmaman--there is a simple formula to figure out your "lumens" for proper lighting.

I think the bar counter will be standard counter height

Here is a link that might be useful: lumens

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 7:12AM
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in the first post =

'The bar area is drawn wrong. There will be no raised bar. '

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 2:19PM
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You guys are amazing! I will post back tomorrow to answer all of your questions!

Thank you! I knew I could count on you. I will also post some photos soon of our renovation.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 5:27PM
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Sorry Kitchenmaman-I made a mistake, since you only have uppers on one side you only need one switch on that wall. I have the lights on 2 sides so that was in my mind. Also since you are only doing one side please get UCL--you will not regret it and it will not cost you as much as doing the entire kitchen. I did one 7ft run and one 5 ft.run(parallel)the lights & connectors and wiring box cost about $730 in materials(not incl. electrician)--well worth it. Task lighting is very important and you do not want to keep lights (like from Home Destruction) plugged into a small appliance socket. From what I read xenon lights run hotter than LED. The electrician showed me LED strip lighting but the light was horrible. Lighting is so important I don't believe when you are doing a whole renovation you should put it in as an after thought. I struggled with the costs but in the end chose LED's--the work area is 1000x better than before. (I had 1 florescent box on the ceiling and a ceiling fan bulb)
For the outlets I put them 4" above the counter, running horizontally. They are less noticeable in that position. I didn't pay extra for plug mold(which is a mounted strip under the cabinets). I put in 12" of space next to my sink and added the undercabinet outlet for a percolator or blender/juicer to be tucked in there out of the way. You can search on the internet "garden web plug molds" if you would like to avoid seeing outlets. I didn't get plug molds since I keep appliances out in front of the outlets.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 7:03PM
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Welcome kitchen_maman. I really have nothing to add on your lighting. It is all too over my head. Well ok that is not a joke. I just do not have an answer for you.

Just wanted to say how cute your design for your kitchen will be. I am glad you are going with the regular counter and not raised bar. We made that change here too and it is so much nicer. That narrow bar edge is a waste.

We do have 36 inch high counters. Now if you are short like. Desert Steph it might not work for you. I am 5'5" and loving the 36 inch high counters. I worry about the depth of your sink, maybe it is just the drawing, if you will have to lean down to reach the bottom. Some one told me you need to be able to stand at the sink and be able to set your hands flat, or almost, into the sink with out having to bend to have the sink at a comfortable height.

Years ago I had a sink in the laundry room that was very deep. I used that area as my milking kitchen and by the time I was done washing up all the pails strainers and what not my back was killing me from bending over.

Can hardly wait to see your progress. I LOVE your choice in stove. We had double ovens once and I never thought it mattered but I used both of them often. Was really nice. Your stove is so pretty.


    Bookmark   January 4, 2013 at 11:52PM
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Gosh I can't think of a thing to add to what's already been said. People here know so much more than I do about this stuff. What I will say is that I think your layout looks pretty great to me and with the few notes that other people have made, I think it will be great. And that AGA is going to be amazing. And I can relate to your experience on kitchens. The first post I made over there after being gone for 2 years was pretty innocuous, at least I thought it was and one person jumped all over me. It was weird. Oh well. Fortunately everyone else was nice.

And EATREALFOOD, thanks for the info on the LED bars. I'm trying to figure out in-cabinet and under-cabinet lighting myself and that's really helpful.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 12:39AM
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shades - very funny about lighting being over your head - lol! mine too - literally and otherwise. I haven't much of a clue about the different new ones. The little one I used in the old place under a cab worked fine there so I figure it'll work fine here (at about 10.00 at W). The battery one mama g recommended from HD should work out fine also (about 12.00 at HD).

If I were replacing the cabs (like I thought I would be) I'd certainly put in a lower counter top. You can't have the dw run too much shorter tho because of the hght of the dw plus counter top. You have to calculate those into it.

I did read something about the ergonomics of the height of it and depth of sinks recently - I think it was linked in a thread on kitchens. According to it the elbow should be at counter hght when you are standing there with your arm bent. And I do think a shallower sink is better for short people. I had been wondering about it (since I got a 'new' used shallow one) but after reading that I felt much better about it. My old sink was very shallow (maybe 6" or so deep and was fine for me. This 'new' one is about the same. Hopefully I'll get that dw hooked up (and it'll work) soon and won't be doing too many dishes by hand.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 1:36AM
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Good morning! You all are so funny!

I have to say that I got a really good deal on our appliances. My dish drawer is a brand new discontinued model that was replaced by just a different skew number. I got it for $500. I also got our vent a hood for $600, half what it goes for on AJMadison because it was a floor model. I also got a discount on the AGA because it was ordered as a floor mode. But it was ordered for me. The owner of the store never displayed it! I felt really lucky and would encourage people to search out similar deals. We are going to have the dish drawer installed by the appliance pros. Strongly encouraged by them and our GC.

I am actually short, and I have thought about lowering the countertops next to the fridge. Would it look weird if the countertops on the pony wall were at 36 inches and the adjoining was at 34?

The sink is an Ikea farm house single 24 inch. My husband is very excited because of the depth. He does most of the clean up. We love the look of it and you cannot beat the.

I decided on one base cabinet with pull out so that I could store my blender and other baking goods. The kitchen designer suggested it because she said that drawers are not big enough to store baking items. We aren't getting custom or semi-custom cabinets so no chance to modify drawer sizes, except the dish drawer dishwasher so that we can have a functional drawer below to store tupper wear. .

I have a nice display cabinet where I will keep some of our dishes. We have a buffet server where we will keep serving pieces and dishes for the kids. The kids love to help and if their dishes are at their height, the can get them and set the table. We are also going to get an old buffet server and put it in our great room under a window where the table used to sit. We will use it to store some glasses and our liquor. It will be a serving station for parties. We had nice pieces when we lived in 2500sq ft in GA. We didn't get rid of it (man I wish I had found this place three years ago when we moved!) and now it will fit nicely, and provide storage. I did purge a lot, and am purging more (good will has befitted over the past few years) and am committed to living clutter free and only using what we really need in our kitchen and our house.

For counter spacing...there is about 12 inches between the wall and the range. Much anticated landing space. Then about 24 inches between the range and the sink. Then about 36 inches between the sink and the wall. give or take because there run is about 11'4". On the other side there is 59 inches between the fridge and the pony wall and the pony wall will be 48 inches and the countertop will be about 18 inches deep.

I think I answered all the questions. I will have to go back and read through.

I am glad that you have been so supportive and that you all understand how tough it is to make a nice functional kitchen in a small space. I really like the small place and actually said no to expanding it. I had a big kitchen in our last house, and it was wasted space. I am positive that the layout was just really bad, but It was also just really too big. I renovated it too fast, just replacing existing layout and learned a lot from that experience.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 8:46AM
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Oh, the pantry, 30 inches wide.

The "counter top bar" area on the 59 inch run is also misleading. It is really just a cap. There are stairs on the other side of that run.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 9:20AM
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GOOD MORNING Kitchenmaman & all
Here's a thread on baking center. The photo at the end looks like it would be really nice next to your fridge.(I will do this in my next kitchen if I move) You probably can't do it though because you need room for your kitchen aid /mixers/bowls etc.
I will find some more info about baking area counter height later today
I must run to the farmer's market as I am down to just parsnips/beets/onions and ONLY 3 potatoes !! I need greens man !!! and EGGS . caio

Here is a link that might be useful: baking counter

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 10:40AM
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Kitchen-Maman, could you email me? I clicked on your profile and there isn't an email link, but you can go through my name. I'm sorry I'm no help on the lighting, I'm still trying to figure it out in my kitchen. I couldn't find a link to your first over the sink choice. Your second looks like it would be hard to clean, but it's pretty. If the cleaning isn't a problem for you, go for it.

EATREALFOOD, if you come back to this thread, and if you feel like taking more photos, how is the under cabinet plug connected to power? Does it go through the bottom of the cabinet? I've already copied your photo to show my dh and electrician. You can email me or I can start a new thread so not to hijack this one.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 12:29PM
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'The kitchen designer suggested it because she said that drawers are not big enough to store baking items.'

how many baking items are there that would be too big for a drawer? other than a large mixer... KDs seem to often steer people away from drawers. They need to read/post on kitchens. There's a thread on kitchens asking about 3 most favorite things one has put in their kitchen - it's a good read. drawers are high on the list. There isn't much you can't store in a drawer. The more drawers, the better.

on the 2 counters at different heights - I have some pics in my kit folder. Will post a few later.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 3:05PM
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Your plan is wonderful! And the AGA...I am so jealous! LOL

I think having the sink and range on the same wall would make the kitchen forum VERY happy...and your fridge and pantry are on the other side. That seems to be the recommended layout. As for your prep area being across from the range, so what? It's a great space and it's very similar to the island prep spaces I see over there, all the time.

As for lighting, you've had some great suggestions. Overall lighting (a ceiling light for the main space) task lighting (so a light over the range, sink and prep area) and don't forget the pantry. Undercabinet lighting is also great and I'd definitely put everything on dimmer switches. It's so nice to be able to adjust your lighting, when needed. Hope that helps :)

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 4:33PM
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I think I forgot to give a link to the two track lights I was thinking about. One would go by my pantry with the lights directed to the microwave, pantry, sink and fridge. The other would be at the front of the kitchen direct at the prep area next to the stove, the stove and the two countertop sections on the other side.

Someone asked about the floors and countertops...we are doing marble for the countertops. Yes, we love it.m we have been abusing our sample every day since Christmas eve and absolutely love it. I also wear linen all summer long. Suits, pants, shirts. It is called Veneto. It is clearer than Carrara, but that was also a strong contender. This one also has really nice taupey veins through it too. We are also doing black and white (arabesquato) marble floors that will flow from our kitchen through the dining room.

Here is a link that might be useful: Track lighting

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 5:18PM
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I found these lights for task lighting next to the fridge. What do you think? The finish matches the track lighting, and I really like the old look...

Here is a link that might be useful: Task lights for above the countertops

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 5:20PM
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Here are some of those pics I'd saved with different heights of counter meeting. Most are probably from the kitchen forum -

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 8:50PM
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Kitchenm--I like those lights you posted, I like anything that looks 1930-40's-50's
I Love glass lights.

    Bookmark   January 5, 2013 at 11:38PM
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That is the beauty of a small space. I believe in using the best materials in a small space. Because you have less of everything you can get what you want--I like the farm sink too.
I told my DH when we buy a small house the finish work must be the highest quality(i.e.: the big small house-susan sashanka)
No need to justify MARBLE. People who say don't use marble, well I say obviously you haven't been to Italy !!
LOVE LOVE LOVE MARBLE, you are not living within a magazine spread like some are (there are people who don't use there kitchens and then rip them out for a new look every 5 years I'm sure). You know it will etch who cares. Just get it finished right and try to get one of the harder varieties(Danby ?)
I have Marble's favorite cousin--SOAPSTONE. One of THE best choices amongst others in my 10x10 kitchen(total 35sq ft counter, I used to have 3 ft). I looked at granite but didn't like the inexpensive ones I saw(like uba tuba) and the engineered quartz(Cambria) was even more expensive.
Marble is my 2nd choice, couldn't do it b/c I'm not in a house :(((
The Soapstone variety I got is so durable.
When I get a house marble will be there someplace !!!

I'm not sure but do you think the track light look too modern ?

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 12:07AM
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have you posted a pic of the track lighting? I don't remember seeing it (doesn't mean it wasn't posted tho - I miss a lot!)

on the lights for by the fridge - do you mean over the 'bar' area? It says it takes up to a 60 W bulb - which isn't much light and it's only a few inches long and a few inches wide so it'll be very high up on the ceiling away from the actual counter top where you'll be prepping.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 4:07AM
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'The "counter top bar" area on the 59 inch run is also misleading. It is really just a cap. There are stairs on the other side of that run.'

Not sure i'm understanding this. Is the 'bar' just the counter top along the top of the pony wall? with a stairway on the side away from the kitchen? you couldn't have an overhang counter there? Is it 48" high? won't that be too high for prep?

I went back up a few posts and found the link to the track lites. I like the circular one! I had one very similar on my 'want' list but decided it was too many $s for me (linked below). Those will give you good lighting and you'll be able to 'aim' the bulbs to specific work areas.

I put up a few of these and will put one over my sink also -

Here is a link that might be useful: circle light

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 4:37AM
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Eatrealfood, we really like the fact that that light is at once circular and square. We thought it was very decoish with a modern twist. We love the deco/regency look and are incorporating the look into our house. It is a 1951 rambler (ranch), but there is some Frank Lloyd Wright influence. The 1930 is like my favorite time period of modern history. I love the clothes, the music, the cars, the houses. The only things that aren't awesome: women not working outside the home and the depression. But hey, there are problems in any time! For my age, I am very old fashioned in many ways. I like to write out things on paper before it goes into a computer, I do most of my cooking, chopping, mixing by hand, and I am very frugal. I learned a lot from my depression era grandparents!

Oh, I also am on track for the small house, quality items! My daughter always oohs and aww was over grand houses on TV. I tell her that we can do the same thing in our house! And it is cost effective because it is small. Just because a house is small doesn't mean that it cannot be beautiful. We really wanted a much smaller house this time to use the exact materials we wanted. We are also using marble in our bathrooms. :)

Deserts tech, I am sorry that I am not able to accurately able to describe what is happening with the kitchen. I am going to try to post a pic of the architects drawing to help explain.

Thank you for those pictures of the lower countertops. I asked the GC if we could lower that section of the countertops to 34 inches. I think that will help a lot!

This post was edited by kitchen_maman on Sun, Jan 6, 13 at 8:59

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 8:26AM
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Okay, so in this drawing, you can see that there is counter space next to the fridge, and that the wall behind that countertop is open. The KD put a raised bar on that section, but really it isn't counter space. Oh, and the stais aren't staring where shown either. They are starting where the posts are, where the should!

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 9:06AM
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Kitchenmaman-I looked at the track light again and I see what you mean. Circular & round, it will look nice. I also looked at the glass light again. Are you planning on using that as a celing flush mount ?'m confused as your link name says: task light for above countertops.

Hey if you feel like playing around with your choices and seeing them all together I highly recommend olioboard.I am going to log on and see if I can make up a mood board for you.(I need ti get a new password first)

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 12:13PM
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Kitchen Maman, you have a beautiful little kitchen planned! It is great that you can have the Aga that you love so much, it really sets the style for the space.

By searching on the Kitchen forum, I was able to learn that your Aga is white, the cabs will be white, the arabesque BS tiles are white. That gives us an idea of the decor we are working with when we are talking about adding lighting

I do not like your choice of the Quorum International 60 watt glass ceiling fixture for the working space next to the fridge. My reason is that the glass globe on it will nearly have the same effect as having a bare bulb. It will be blinding to look at from across your living space. People going up the open staircase will find it bothersome, and it will catch the eye of people in the dining area. I have a particular dislike of getting a "bare bulb" glare as I move my eyes around a room. Those lighting kits for ceiling fans in which the bulbs stick out from the center of tulip-shaped glass shades are the bane of my existence.

I just went and read the reviews on the light you linked us to. Says someone who put three above their bathroom counter with compact fluorescent bulbs inside: "They give the bathroom an underground bunker feel that contrasts with the granite countertops." Well, I would not go that far!

I would rather see something with a shade that directs the light down onto your work surface. This one has a character similar to your Aga, functional, of a bygone era, all business, but in an elegant way. It comes in chrome or oiled bronze. It takes a 100 watt bulb, and that light is directed down at the work surface, not scattered up at ceiling height like the one you showed us. The review of it says that it is substantial and well made. It is 16.5 inches in diameter, so you will want to keep it fairly high. It will draw attention away from the track lighting that you are going to have to get to light the other end of the room that by its very nature cannot be period-appropriate.

You can get that circular track light with square bulbs for the pantry end, then you could even get your $7 Quorum ceiling bulb fixture above the sink. (I don't mind is as much there because the cabinets shade it somewhat.) Along with under-cabinet lights and a good light in your hood, that should do it for lighting in your kitchen. I am going to keep looking to see if a more period-appropriate track light can be had, though. If I find one, I will post again.

Here is a link that might be useful: task lighting next to fridge

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 1:24PM
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Geez, this is a popular thread, and how did I miss it before it got so LONG!!!

Welcome welcome. LOVE your kitchen! It is PERFECT.
I was thinking that the cab to the left of the sink should be the same height as the two flanking the range....or AGA which is more than a mere "range." GORGEOUS.

Your space won't be dark if you keep the counter tops lighter, the ceiling lighter, suggest a semigloss paint there, never did like what they call "ceiling" paint. And, your north-facing sink window will give you a constant light, and be a great spot for an orchid or an african violet. I also suggest you think about a light tube with one hole in the roof and TWO tubes coming down into your kitchen. One tube in the ceiling above your bar space, the other tube in the ceiling above your sink.

I'd also set up a sliding cutting board which can fit on your sink, covering about half of it so water can run on the other side. It it can go in the space beneath your sink, great. Or position it in the space to the left of your microwave. You should look into a smaller microwave drawer perhaps, to save your prep space. Find a way to locate the microwave in your pantry. With all that AGA power, the MWave is secondary. Right?

I'm glad to see that you are making real choices here based on your knowledge of the way you use your home, the way you cook, and yet you realize that quality does matter. I think your kitchen will be elegant when it is done.

Love that you found US, because Smaller Homes Forum is about individuality and personal choices. You won't find cookie cutter kitchens around here.

I'm saving this thread because EatRealFood added the bit about her lighting, and I'm mulling over MY choices too.

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 2:07PM
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This track light has the unfortunate quality of costing $250, nearly twice the cost of the ultra-modern one you liked. It is bendable, so you may still be able to get the spiral shape, I don't know. It is less modern, however, and is one of four that pop up when you chose "art deco" as a style.

Here is a link that might be useful: track light

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 4:16PM
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' I have a particular dislike of getting a "bare bulb" glare as I move my eyes around a room.'

I do too! I think they are hard on the eyes. They hurt mine. I can tolerate them in a closet tho. I've been very careful about the fixtures I'm picking for in here.

I think the little fixture the OP linked to won't give light on the prep area. It'll disperse before getting that far down. I was careful with my pantry/hall fixture because I didn't want it to do that. There's a good amount of wall area above the doorways there (3 doorways) and I needed the light below those doorways - one doorway is to the pantry and I want good light into that. I put in one like this (pic below) and it's working out just like I hoped it would. I've also been firm in getting fixtures that will take up to a 100 W bulb. I figure I can always put in a bulb w/less W but can't go over what it's approved for (w/o danger of fire). I have a 75W bulb in it now and it gives out plenty of light -

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 4:41PM
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' I have a particular dislike of getting a "bare bulb" glare as I move my eyes around a room.'

I do too! I think they are hard on the eyes. They hurt mine. I can tolerate them in a closet tho. I've been very careful about the fixtures I'm picking for in here.

I think the little fixture the OP linked to won't give light on the prep area. It'll disperse before getting that far down. I was careful with my pantry/hall fixture because I didn't want it to do that. There's a good amount of wall area above the doorways there (3 doorways) and I needed the light below those doorways - one doorway is to the pantry and I want good light into that. I put in one like this (pic below) and it's working out just like I hoped it would. I've also been firm in getting fixtures that will take up to a 100 W bulb. I figure I can always put in a bulb w/less W but can't go over what it's approved for (w/o danger of fire). I have a 75W bulb in it now and it gives out plenty of light -

    Bookmark   January 6, 2013 at 5:44PM
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Kitchenmaman-Here's a photo of one of my pendants. I have them on a Meastro Lutron dimmer and they give off nice illumination.As some point I will put in LED bulb that's why I made sure to get a light with a white shade. Plus I think the white shade makes them look brighter. I have 4 in a 10x10 room along with the UCL LED's and cove lighting(not up yet). You will definitely appreciate good UCL on the sink side where you have uppers. Think of your lighting as layers: task UCL, overall illumination and gentle mood lighting. Do you have room on a wall for a sconce ? There are so really nice Old style sconces available. I have no wall for a sconce in the kichen but did put one in the sittingroom adjacent to the kitchen, I use it all the time. It gives off a lovely glow on the wall.
You might want to look over the salvage store Demolition Depot. They salvage items from wealthy estates, the really really really(!!!) $$$$ pricey stuff goes to CT. The other materials $$$(not "cheap" but not unaffordable for a beautiful item you love)goes to Demolition depot.
We bought a 52" cast iron tub 18" deep which we boxed in with tiles because the bathroom is so small there wouldn't be room to clean around the feet(my only regret, I'll get "the feet" when I move) for $500 and a "Standard" before it became "American Standard" wall mount sink for $500 with cross handles(handles have scratches--I don't care). The sink fits perfectly and makes the room look so much cleaner w/o the ugly cheap press board dilapidated vanity filled with junk that I had before. If I do ever sell, I think I'm taking the sink with me and replacing it with cheap pressboard vanity/plastic sink...When I priced good quality porcelain sinks they were the same price so I went with the "classic" one. :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Beautiful stuff

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 9:55AM
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Eatrealfood, we have community forklift and second chance that we visit. The take the stuff from DC and Baltimore houses. That is where we got some doors this weekend! We also bought a salvage fire place surround and another door for a place in York, PA salvaged from a Victorian home in Philidelphia! I wish I had more time to hang out and look for my finds.

We don't have room for a sconce in the kitchen, but we will have two in the dining room. I really like those pendants. What brand are they? I am looking to keep the cost down, because I am not using my lighting allowance for this. I am trying to save money from the allowance to apply towards the kitchen proper.

Desertsteph, you don't think those little quorum jar lights will allow enough light? Together, they will be 200 watts, and I only need them when I prep so there won't be shadows. I don't want anything that will really hang down and they need to be small because it is only about 5 feet of space.

You guys are giving me a lot to think about and really great advice.

Thank you!!!

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 8:13PM
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Still wondering why there is an actual wall on the right as you face the kitchen. 3 ft. is just not that wide and with the counter there may feel smaller. If the wall was not there you would gain about 4 inches but gain a lot of openess visually.
My sticking point.

    Bookmark   January 7, 2013 at 11:40PM
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"Desertsteph, you don't think those little quorum jar lights will allow enough light? "

maybe I read the specs wrong on it. I thought it said it took a 60 W bulb. how high is the ceiling there?

I think noodles is asking what area / room is to the right of the wall that is to the right of the stove. Can that little section of wall come down?

do you follow CEF's posts on kitchens? She goes to those places each wk and reports on her finds. I love reading about them! Is that area near you? Wish I had a place like that near me. Closest place is about a 45 min drive - a real chance on getting there and back with my car! She's a real character - and so funny!

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 2:36AM
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Hi Kitchenm-Re: pendants---I bought them at a lighting store not online. I wanted to see them in person because I didn't want a wide pendant but a slim industrial style. Also I believe in doing business locally, large lighting stores are disappearing.We used to have many full service lighting stores (crystal chandeliers, reading lights, wall sconces, lamps) everything displayed lit up so you can a good idea of the illumination --all gone because of junk stores like W and Home Destruction. The lighting stores that have moved in carry a lot of halogen lighting that I can't stand. I prefer to shop in an actual shop that specializes if at all possible. I find it more and more difficult to do this. I posted the link to their online store (so you can see the light)but it is a separate operation so I cannot vouch for the online store as I did not order from there.The model numbers online and at the actual shop are different and stock different items.
I would call the number below and inquire for best price. I paid $325 for qty 4. Lighting stores(at least this one) expect you to talk them down, like a car salesman. I bought 6 lights from them(4 pendants, one bathroom chandelier and bathroom sconce, they all shipped promptly and I did not pay what was on the tag.

New York Lighting
136-138 Bowery
New York, NY 10013

(212) 334-9973 ask for Greg

Do a search on 'yelp' for New York Lighting.

The online store has a lot of pendants(metal/white) which would great with your style kitchen. You can also negotiate price, see "add to shopping cart" right below is "or you can make an offer"

Here is a link that might be useful: pendant

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 7:25AM
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the pendant comes in different finishes.

Here is a link that might be useful: more finishes

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 8:29AM
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Desertsteph, you are right. They are 60 a piece. The ceilings are 8"1'.

I don't know where CEF lives, but has to be in my area. It is the same community forklift! She seems more rural so maybe more towards the bay.

Noodles, that section to the right of the fridge is the pantry. The KD didn't put anything in there because it is going to be built in with a salvaged door for extra character.

Eatrealfood, thank you for the link. I think they are lovely, but I don't really want something that will hang down like that. so do you live in The city? I have a friend who lives there. I want to take my daughter for her birthday.

    Bookmark   January 8, 2013 at 7:06PM
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'Noodles, that section to the right of the fridge is the pantry.'

to the right of your new stove - we're wondering what's to the R of the kitchen on that side. past the stove and past the 'bar' area.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 2:17AM
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Hi Kitchenm-
If you want task lighting you want it to be as close to the counters as possible. The quorum jar lights will provide some overall illumination. As desert and others pointed out you may not like a bare bulb on the ceiling. I like glass lights that either have a bit of white(like the 1950's flush mount ceiling lights) or they are a little frosted. I'm unclear as to whether you intend to have UCL or just flush mount lights.
Do your lighting in steps.
What is the most important lighting for you ? For me it is task lighting. Cooking can be dangerous: heat + knives. When I cut the head & feet off a (Bo Bo)chicken I don't want my finger in the way :)
What is the next most important ? For me it was overall illumination, so I put in pendants since I do not like can lights.
The next thing is what I call quiet light. For me I decided to put the pendants on dimmers so if I didn't want bright light I could soften the lights. Now my cove lighting is a different story---we'll see how that turns out LOL. We are SO SLOW getting these last bits finished.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 8:23AM
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Ah, to the right of the kitchen. It used to be the living room and dining room. Now it will be a great room. There is a beautiful fireplace and we are putting in a window seat. I will post a pictur of the drawing.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 5:03PM
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This is the new house plan. The extension on the back is about 500 sq ft. The new library area used to be the third bedroom.

These are the lights we are considering for above the sink. Dh and I really like the black one. I think the orange would be nice too. They are 14 inches though and I think that is too big. The window is 36 inches.

Ttwo track lights

"task lights"

My first need is a well-lit kitchen. My eyes arent great and they won't be getting better! I want to make sure there will be no shadows. That is why I put the lights over the counters. I thought they would work well to get rid of shadows. The chandie over the sink is the little bit of bling in the kitchen.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 5:17PM
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A chandelier over the sink would be lovely !!! Both are nice.
Task lighting = UCL (not a flushmount ceiling fixture)

This is only my opinion:
UCL, flush mount ceiling fixture (since you don't want cans)
and a Chandelier(ambient) lighting over the sink.

You will not regret putting in under cabinet lighting.

Here is a link that might be useful: too much light ?

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 6:39PM
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Eatrealfood, I oforgot to say, I am taking that advice! I wonder if I should get 6 or 12 inches. It will go under the 15 inch cabinet between the sink and stove. I was also wondering what else I need to buy with this.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 8:03PM
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What brand is that ? Get the longest you can fit 12 inches for the 15in cab(measure the space underneath the cab.) Is it direct wire ?

I wish I could have put a chandelier in this kitchen but I really need a ceiling fan.BOO HOO.

    Bookmark   January 9, 2013 at 8:25PM
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the layout you recently posted helps - that's what those on kitchens wanted to see.

I wouldn't use a chandelier in the kitchen myself - it has 'up light' and I need 'down light' with my aging eyesight. I also wouldn't want to clean the crystals/beads that will get grease on them that dust/dirt will stick to. Regular dirt/dust here in the desert is bad enough. I've had to make choices that I might not have 15 or more yrs back because of my eyes and based on ease of replacing bulbs in them. And just plain ease of cleaning - I sure don't get around like i could yrs back.

I'd like something like that for over a soaking tub (or jacuzzi type) if I 'did' tubs anymore. I don't - I don't know if I could get back out of one once I managed to get in it! It crossed my mind to put one in the ceiling (middle) of my bathroom and I looked at a few but didn't find any I liked that much at a price I could pay. I also realized that it wouldn't give enough light to either side of my bathroom (it's 13' wide with shower on 1 side and tub on the other). Neither of those had enough light. The fixture I got allows me to aim a bulb at either side of the room and 1 to light the center of the room. I found 1 I really liked at a very good price. I'm getting another one to use in my kitchen.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 3:08AM
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Kitchenm--Re: dust & chandeliers
"My House is clean enough to be healthy and dirty enough to be happy" as said in my home while growing up by the most wonderful wise person.

desert--good thing none of my friends during numerous dinners & parties ever looked up at my previous flush mount florescent ceiling light...I couldn't reach it to take it down(9ft ceiling). LOL I won't describe it.
I have a tiny bathroom(47" wide), I put the chandelier on a dimmer and a wall mount light no dimmer. I specifically bought the chandelier(not real crystal unfortunately) for my DH when he takes baths. I love the sparkle. It's black & clear in a white & black subway tiled bathroom.

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 7:32AM
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kitchen_maman, I just read through this whole thread in one sitting! I have a similar sized kitchen (7.5x11 galley, but no possibility of opening it to another room.) I think we may live in the same area - I'm just outside DC in MD. I will follow your progress with great interest, and if you have recommendations on anything you encounter along the way, I'd love to hear them (contractor? places where you scored your great floor model deals?)

Fwiw I love to read the kitchen forum but the advice I got when I posted my layout just froze me in my tracks for the past 18 months. It was tough but in my case probably not inaccurate, since my kitchen is also the main passage way to the living and dining rooms (part of an addition) and with two increasingly huge young boys I need more elbow room. I can't sit back too much longer - we've already had one of hte ancient appliances die and my husband thinks I'm nuts because he set aside the money for a renovation ages ago. Anyway, I look forward to being inspired by your photos and accounts of your progress! Good luck, and please keep all of us lurkers posted!

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 9:33AM
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EatREALFOOD, wise words to live by!! and the light is the one you suggested! ET2. That is the one you suggested right?

Desertsteph, I have thought about one in the bathroom. I heard that code can be an issue, and in this area, code is king! I too have thought about the kitchen grease issue. One reason we are looking at this one. It is less expensive than the other one that I was considering...

smaloney, I am sorry that you had issues over there too! 18 months is a long time. I think they forget that there are small kitchens and they can be just as functional. You have been living in your house for a while so you can imagine how it works and how you would like it to work.

I think we are in the same area! Are you inside the beltway? We are in Silver Spring, between SS and Bethesda. We are right outside Rock Creek Park and about .5 miles to the DC boarder. So far, we have really liked our architects and builders. All the same company. I will be posting some pictures soon of the progress. well, the guts of our house anyway!!!

okay, so I just found this light...it matches the other track lighting. Would this be better over the counter space? Two of these? Gosh! I have to make a decision quick because the electrician is wiring...but these are only 50 watts instead of 60. There are just too many light choices!
so this....

or this...

with this...

This post was edited by kitchen_maman on Thu, Jan 10, 13 at 19:25

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 5:33PM
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KMaman, I'd do the square one with the nice square multi light "@".

That middle one with the kind of Fresnal lens clear globe shaped like a Mason jar, that looks like you are using an outdoor porch light. At least, that is what we use on most cottage porches down south here.

I suppose it could be sprayed with some frosted coating to make it less of a glare to obscure the bulb.

I really like those crystal looking cube lights. Even the ceiling plates are square. I'd definitely use the lights with the same design features.

And, I love the plan you have for your remodel. It's going to look wonderful.

Note: the pantry door swings open and blocks the entire passageway. How about getting a pair of bifold doors and hinge them separately? This would still allow you to mount items on the inside of those doors, perhaps pegboard like Julia Childs had in her kitchen (and I do so admire Julia), and you could put things there like packets or seldom used seasonings or jello or pudding mixes, light weight stuff that sometimes gets pushed out of view.

And SMaloney, pleased to have you come out of lurk mode and post. We can always use a fresh voice around here. Welcome!

    Bookmark   January 10, 2013 at 10:32PM
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I haven't read all of the posts, and I might be repeating someone else, but when we did our tiny kitchen in our old house, we used an over the stove vented microwave to conserve counter space. We had lots of little built in stuff: a spice rack built into a cupboard drawer, a little tip out thing in front of the sink, stuff like that. That tiny kitchen was professionally designed and it was amazing. It had originnally been a pantry!

We had undercabintet lighting, pot lights, and installed a solarium window to open up the space a little.

Good luck, I am sure you will love this!

    Bookmark   January 11, 2013 at 9:51AM
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Hi Kitchenm-what is ET2 ???

I agree with moccasin #1 & #3
I like the black & clear chandelier.
Taking away lights is easy(turn off the switch), adding lights is more difficult later on.

WI-SAILORGIRL--If you come back to this thread, I got the UCL at Farralane's. Sorry if I did not mention that sooner. This thread is so long...

    Bookmark   January 11, 2013 at 8:28PM
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Thanks ERF! I appreciate the source info!

    Bookmark   January 14, 2013 at 4:51PM
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wi-sailorgirl---you are welcome ! Oldbat2b gave me that vendor when I was befuddled and figuring out the expense...You need to figure out how many wiring boxes you need depending on your configuration. You can call Joe to discuss...Mine was easy to figure since it's 2 straight runs on separate switches, not sure how complicated yours is. You can also email the layout too I guess..

    Bookmark   January 14, 2013 at 11:42PM
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To resurrect an old thread.. :)

I'm reading everything I can about plug molds and this popped up in my search.

Kitchen_maman, did you ever post pictures of your finished kitchen? Of course, I haven't done a search but I will after this.

And you are correct. I'm out Route 50 between DC and Annapolis. I still have my condominium, though, on Washington Ave in Silver Spring. It's right behind the Parkway Deli. Sounds like you're very close to that.

Yes, the Community Forklift is the one I've frequented every Friday for several years. The H4H around the corner from there, too. I have the house that reuse centers built! :)

Anyway, I'd love to see pics.

    Bookmark   February 23, 2014 at 9:24AM
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I am coming very late to this thread, but I thought I'd post because I have a similar-sized kitchen in the planning stages. I do a lot of cooking and a moderate amount of baking myself and really loved my marble baking counter in the last house I had. I will try to post a picture --but bear in mind the kitchen is close to 18 years old in the picture!

One thing I'm wondering about in your plan, kitchen_maman, is why you haven't considered making one line of your counters 30" deep instead of just 24". If I'm reading your plan correctly, it looks like you will have over 5' 6" between the two lines of cabinetry --about a foot more than is recommended for efficiency. If you are a baker, you will enjoy that extra 6" of space! Also, it allows for storage at counter level, if that's what you prefer, and enough depth to get a standard depth refrigerator and have it look like a counter-depth one, if you add the 6" on that side. I am thinking of doing this in my soon-to-be new kitchen. I feel like I need every square inch I can get!

    Bookmark   February 27, 2014 at 7:17PM
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Kitchen_maman, just wondering how your kitchen is progressing? I love seeing remodels of small kitchens.

    Bookmark   April 5, 2014 at 10:06AM
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    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 2:47PM
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Texasgal, there is another kitchen redo in a thread I created last week. WhiteDove cottage kitchen and home addition. My house.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 4:57PM
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CEFreeman, I've been wondering how your kitchen is coming along too.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 5:03PM
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Don't forget that if you must make more space for prep, you can have a cutting board made to fit your sink, maybe half of it or more, just so you can store it beneath the sink when it is not in use. I think Kohler has some boards which can be purchased for THEIR sinks, and if it is plain in style might find one to fit your particular sink. Plus, it/the cutting board that is....could be used for hot pots from the range. Or from the microwave for that matter.

Besides, if your dishwasher if full already and/or running, the board could hide dishes waiting to be washed. I will have a single sink 30 inch stainless. It would be handy to cover part of the sink to make more usable counter space.

Google "sink cutting boards" and you will find hundreds of them.....

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 1:20AM
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