?'s on grains

tishtoshnm Zone 6/NMNovember 23, 2008


I am definitely interested in beginning to grind my own flour so I have some questions for you.

1. Any recommendations on a mill? I was considering the one that goes with the KA mixer but the hopper on it looks small.

2. Where do you purchase your grains? I need this to actually be cheaper for my family and a 5 lb bag of whole wheat here is $3. I actually hope to purchase hard red wheat, hard white wheat, soft wheat, steel cut outs, flax seed and spelt (probably 50 lb each of everything but the flax, I have a large family).

3. How do the wheat berries store over the long term? I hope to work my way to unplugging the garage freezer which would be easier if I don't have to worry about 200 pounds of grains in it.

These are the immediate questions that come to mind. Thank you for your time in answering them.

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#1. Avoid the mill for the KA.

-It's famous for over-heating if you do a large milling job.

-Doesn't do as wide a variety of grains/beans/seeds as other mills.

-Doesn't do a fine grind; and fine flour is necessary for breads as well as cakes and other baked goods. Coarse flour = coarse bread. It's suggested to mill the grain, THEN run the flour through the grain mill again to make if finer, but it's not as fine as an impact mill run through once.

-It's very noisy (although I ALWAYS wear ear plugs when I run any of my electric mills).

-The mill is only recommended for the largest KA mixers.

I'd suggest a Nutrimill or a Wonder Mill - I have both of these. These mills are electric impact mills, lightweight, self-cleaning, low maintanance, and do an excellent job. (See link below for a good source for them. WONDERFUL people and great service.)

The Wonder Mill was known as a Whisper Mill when I got it over 15 years ago and I've milled flour 1-3 times a week for all that time. The Nutrimill (I got this spring Mother's Day Special ;-) has a coarse setting and will do a fine grind of cornmeal - that's a nice bonus - as well as the great job it does on a fine-grind of flour. I used a hand-powered Corona Corn Mill for milling cornmeal until I got my Nutrimill. Both of these mills will do a wide selection of grains/seeds/beans, with the exception of tiny stuff (teff, amaranth), and oily seeds (flax, sesame, poppy). I have a seed mill for those.

#2. Wheat prices have recently been at a record high, but have come down a bit since harvest. You don't want new-crop wheat. It's best if it's a couple years old.

-45# of wheat berries = approx. 158 cups flour
-1# (or 3 cups) = approx. 4 c. flour
-a scant 2/3 c. wheat = 1 c. flour
-when flaking oat groats, 1/2 c. groats = 1 c. flakes

My last purchase, July, was for 100# hard white winter wheat - 13.1% protein (Farmer Direct Foods Inc. - http://www.farmerdirectfoods.com/) at the highest price I've ever paid for wheat - $43/100#. One of their stone mills is just outside of town and I saved shipping by picking the grain up.

I purchase soft white wheat (on-line) from Bob's Red Mill, and not very much of it. I usually temper hard wheat with spelt, or use spelt alone where I don't need a lot of gluten development (quick breads, etc.) instead of soft wheat. I mix a 3:1 ratio of soft white wheat and oat groats for "cake" flour for delicate cakes (and also sift it before using and use any bran left in the sifter in something else).

I'm in Kansas and order spelt, corn, oat groats and rye from Heartland Mill in Marienthal, KS (www.heartlandmill.com/). I get 25# of each once a year, or so. I get flax from Bob's Red Mill (I mill it in a coffee/spice grinder - I mill 2-cups flaxmeal every 7-10 days (keep it in the freezer) and use it in all our baked goods and in our morning smoothie). I just got 10# of golden flax at a food co-op in the bulk-food section this weekend while on a visit, 2-hours away, at a good price. I keep it vacuum-sealed in a jar (using the FoodSaver and the jar lid attachment). Anything that is "oily" I keep vacuum-sealed in jars, rather than the bags.

I also use a small amount of Kamut (for pasta) as well as durum wheat (also pasta). I get Kamut from Bob's Red Mill and I got the durum wheat from a co-op.

Last years grain purchase (300#) I got at Wal-Mart (I was shocked to see it there), but I hauled as much home each week as my $50/week grocery budget would allow - Wheat Montana $5/25#. They usually only put out one or two bags at a time. Sadly, they haven't carried any since April.

Wheat Montana is excellent wheat. I prefer Prairie Gold spring hard white wheat, but also have Bronze Chief hard red wheat. I use red wheat for making bulgur - I like the acidic taste of red wheat for bulgur better than white wheat. (http://www.wheatmontana.com/) See if they have a dealer near you - dealers are posted on their web site.

Your best prices will come as close to home as possible because the shipping is as much as the purchase price. Check at local health food stores (be sure to ask for a discount if you take a large order - but ask for the discount AFTER you find out what the price is...), food co-ops, LDS churches.... Just be sure you get food-grade, not animal grade.

Avoid purchasing grain that is processed in any way, like steel-cut oats. Once the bran is cut, the oils in the grain begin to oxidize and the grain quickly degrades and you'll have little left but the fiber. You're getting ALL the nutrition when you get the whole grain.

I mill oat groats in my flaker mill and mill oat flour in my grain mill. With the flaker mill I can also coarse-chop grain (similar to steel-cut) and I also mill my cooked farina-type cereals (cream of wheat, cream of rice). I use an overnight soaking method for making oatmeal with freshly-milled flakes, so it cooks in under 10-minutes.

#3. Hard grains store for decades. Grains are best kept in cool temperatures (70F or colder). Oxygen-free is best, but I've kept lots of grain in grain buckets with tight-fitting lids for years - even when we didn't have a basement and I stored grain in the backs of closets. In all the years and all the grain sources I've had (including straight out of the grain hopper of the combine), I've NEVER had an insect infestation and I've never kept grain in the freezer. (All I have is my refrigerator freezer.)

I use soft grains within 18-months to 2 years of purchase - they don't keep as long as hard grains. For good information on grain storage check out this web site: LDS Preparedness Manual


I keep the bulk of my grain vacuum-sealed in FoodSaver bags. They are placed in plastic storage containers and stacked in a food storage room in the basement (about 50# per storage container). I follow a food storage plan similar to what Mormons endorse.

WHEW!!! I never have a quick answer to anything...


    Bookmark   November 24, 2008 at 9:06AM
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I am not the OP, but

I thank you for all that info, I've copied it.

So sorry I asked this on another thread, should have done some looking before asking. Please disregard my question on the other thread.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2008 at 1:01PM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM

Thank you so very much for taking the time to answer those questions. It appears my biggest challenge is going to be getting the grain on the cheap. New Mexico is definitely removed from wheat country. There is a mill in Colorado and I can try contacting them and someone once mentioned to me a group of people all go in on a semi-truck's worth and split the shipping that way.

Interesting thing on the oats is the last time we are at Whole Foods they were out of steel-cut oats so we purchased some groats to try and they were fabuluous, DH and I both loved them and the kids don't have much of a choice in the matter so it appears that I now have to find groats instead.

If anybody becomes aware of additional sources for bulk grains, please share the information!

    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 1:17AM
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Grainlady, I live in NE Oklahoma. I'm maybe 20 miles from the KS state line -- nearby KS towns/cities are Caney, Coffeyville, Independence. How would I find out if I am close enough to any graineries from which to buy grain?

I enjoy your posts very much and appreciate how readily you share your knowledge. I do have some space to store grain if it doesn't have to be in a basement. Since I enjoy baking bread and I'm motivated to save money and improve our health the natural way, I'm becoming more interested in your processes with each post. Thank you for the link. BTW, my local health food store buys from Bob's Red Mill. I've been getting my long-grain brown rice there, 25# at a time. But I find it kind of expensive. I've gotten steel cut oats from BulkFoods.com and I didn't think the price was too bad, since they ship for $5 no matter how much is ordered. But I had no idea the steel cut oats were losing nutrition from being cut ahead of time. I do keep the extra in the freezer but like Tish, I really don't like having a freezer full of grain. Then there's no room for my garden stuff, and meats bought on sale. BulkFoods doesn't sell oat groats. But they sell 25# hard wheat for $42.95 and 25# soft wheat for $40.80. They don't offer it in any larger sizes and it looks like you are able to get about the same prices for 100#.

I'm looking forward to your next informative post! --Ilene

    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 9:35AM
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Ilene - Those prices for wheat are beyond excessive!!! Something closer to robbery; and you can be sure the farmer didn't see much of it...

I used to do a lot of training sessions in Joplin, so I passed close to your area.

I'd suggest calling your local County Extension Office and see if they have any resources.

Another source for you would be to check Ozark Natural Foods out of Fayetteville, Arkansas (see link below). They used to deliver to food cooperatives in about a 4-state area and maybe there's a co-op near you.

Give Farmer Direct Foods, Inc. a call.
8 a.m. to 5 p.m. (CST) Monday through Friday: 1.800.372.4422 You could find out what shipping would be. They are located in Atchison, KS, but have distributors in many locations.

Try the Oklahome Wheat Commission.

Hope you find a great source.


    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 12:41PM
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If you travelled HWY75, you were at one point only about three blocks from my house.

I called the county extension agency, they pointed me to a farmers market group that is local to me. I've sent an e-mail. Also I looked at Oklahoma Wheat Commission's website and ended up sending an e-mail to them. They're out of Oklahoma City and 200 miles away from me.

I can't think of any local farms that grow wheat. Mostly they raise cattle and horses here. That makes it easy to find manure for the garden, though. ;)

I can remember watching out the window as we travelled from here to Iola and Chanute, KS, where my grandparents lived. Lots of fields of kaffir corn and wheat in between. So I sent an e-mail to the KS Wheat Commission explaining how close I was to the KS state line and asking if they had any information on farmers in the Caney, Coffeyville, Independence KS general area. I tried calling the local LDS church and got no answer. They don't even have an answering machine on the phone.

Our "bug man" -- who comes once a month and sprays us for ants, spiders, and gets rid of an occasional mouse in the house -- seems to know everyone and has hooked us up with people who had something we needed before. I'll ask him, too.

I called Farmer Direct Foods and they sell 50# of hard white wheat berries for $19.99 but the shipping to me is $23.60. 100# is $21, shipping is the same. I don't know if I could handle 100#, being a "newby" and all, but that would sure be the way to go for economy's sake. That's still a much better buy than Bulk Foods, even with the shipping.

I thought I saw somewhere that you mentioned buying wheat that is already ?18 months? old. Is this for economy's sake or is this because fresher wheat would gunk up the grinder?

So if I find a local source, I need to know how old it is and whether its hard or soft or red or white. Is there anything else I need to be asking?

I looked at the Nutrimill Grain Mill. It looks like a good one. What brand of flaker do you use?

Tish, hope I'm not trouncing on your toes. Apparently Grainlady is going to have at least three converts (you, me and ladytexan), IF we can get the grain! --Ilene

    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 5:07PM
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Hold that thought on Farmer Direct Foods. I read the e-mail wrong. 100# is just double on both the price of the product and also the shipping. So wouldn't matter one way or the other price wise. Sorry 'bout that. --Ilene

    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 5:16PM
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Ilene -

Most retail grains are probably older than this years crop, but it doesn't hurt to ask. New crop wheat just doesn't "work" as well, not that it will "gunk" up the mill or is impossible to use. Older wheat will assure it's "aged" and very dry. If you can find out the protein content, that will help. Otherwise you may have to do a protein test. If you think you need to do that at home with wheat you purchase, I'll post the instructions (water + flour in a blender - depending on how much water it absorbs will indicate how much protein/gluten in the flour - source: "CookWise" by Shirley O. Corriher).

Equivalent bread flour: 13-14% protein

Equivalent to all-purpose (and will still make a fine loaf of bread: 11-13% protein

Under 10% protein, you may need to add some vital wheat gluten to increase the protein level for high-rising bread.

You'd have to order wheat from north of here - or find a source that sells it - to find Spring Wheat - it's not produced in Kansas/Oklahome/Texas/Nebraska. You get more endosperm, more flour and less bran, when you mill spring wheat, but I've also used lots and lots of winter wheat.

The two best brands I've used are Wheat Montana (Prairie Gold and Bronze Chief - spring wheat) and the wheat I got this summer from Farmer Direct (winter wheat). King Arthur Flour uses the white wheat from American White Wheat Producers Association (aka Farmer Direct Foods in Atchison, KS).

There used to be a group in Wichita, KS who purchase a semi-load of Wheat Montana wheat, so if you check with Wheat Montana, there may be a source near you.

45# of wheat is a 6-gallon pail and would be a good amount to get started. It stores nicely in the back of a closet.

It's rather ironic.... I got hard winter white wheat directly from a farmer I know (he's been farming for over 50-years) who produced a "test" field for the American Association of White Wheat Producers. I milled some of the wheat into flour and gave it to them to use. It was the first time they ever consumed their own wheat... Go FIGURE!


    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 9:05PM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM

Ilene, I don't mind at all. I continue to learn more and more. So far the best price I have been able to find works out to .70 per pound for organic hard wheat through one of the local stores. That would be more than the bags 5 lb bags I buy for $3 at Wal-Mart but then that is not organic and I will still get all of the other goodies that come from the kernel. I am going to try to find a better deal still.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 9:25PM
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Next year's vacation ...

... a motor trip through the country where they grow the kind of wheat that you're looking for.

Travel with some spare space in the trunk - borrowing roof-rack, if necessary.

If you don't know where to find a borrowable roof-rack ...

... see my Christmas gift here, on "Household Finance", or possibly KT in about three weeks. Actually, it'll be the same as last year, (isn't that re-gifting, but *tacky*?!) and I'm pretty sure that it's somewhere still here from last year, but I have very poor results when I use "Search" here. I'm disinclined to post it on KT, as their 67 pages of capacity get filled in about 2.5 months.

Buy from a farmer ... if you can stomach a small amount of trash mixed in with the good stuff. Try it at least once, anyway ... much cheaper. If put some in a small tray, flip a few inches into the air and blow on it, will get rid of some light stuff, chaff, etc.

Re the roof-rack: make a list of everyone that you've known since childhood, with contact info, including email. Also add info as to their training, skills, interests, hobbies, vacation destinations, etc. ... anything thAt they might have info about that you might like to pick their brains about, later.

When you need some info, e.g. need to borrow a roof-rack for vacation ... send out an inquiry. Great to find a used car ... from a senior who buys new every three years or so.

If that list doesn't save you hundreds, more likely thousands, during your lifetime, I'll be surprised (should I still happen to be around to be so).

Enjoy being pArt of your own (non-daily) grind!

ole joyful

    Bookmark   November 25, 2008 at 11:14PM
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Well, Tish, .70 a pound is only $35 for 50#. That's still better than Farmer Direct Foods' $43 and certainly better than BulkFoods.com. Plus like you say you're getting a much better product than you can get in the grocery store. I'll call my local health food store today. I get long-grain brown rice there, even if it is more expensive than buying long-grain white rice at the grocery, it's still better for us and I don't know where else to get it. I buy a 25# bag and put it in 2-gallon ice-cream tubs in my freezer. I used to get my yeast there, a pound at a time, keeping maybe a cup or two of it in a jar in my refrig and the rest in my freezer. Last time I went to get more, I was told they'd been told they can't buy stuff in bulk and divide it any more, and the smallest amount of yeast I could order would be in a 5# bag. The owner said she'd had several disappointed customers and I told her I wish she had kept their names because maybe we could get together and work something out between us. When I talk to her today about the wheat berry price I will ask her if she will begin taking names and phone numbers for me and I will do the work of coordinating.

It can't be that hard to set up a co-op, can it? SURELY I'm not the only "health nut" in the Bartlesville/Dewey area! I'm thinking I might call the local radio during "Consumer Calls" (where you call to advertise stuff you want to sell or give away) and just ask if anyone interested in forming a food co-op would get in contact with me. We could certainly start off with purchasing big bags of things through that health food store if we needed to, but maybe other options would be open to us then as well.

Where are those LDS people that come to your door when you really need them? LOL! BTW, of course everyone can tell by now I'm not Mormon, but a long time ago I had a boss that was and his wife was such an extraordinary woman. Also several Mormon women were walking down the street one snowy day when I got my car stuck trying to get into my driveway after work and they rushed over and PUSHED ME IN! Well, that called for an invite in and some hot cocoa all around (I didn't know then that Mormons didn't drink tea and coffee and some don't think cocoa is appropriate either, but they drank it) and I was really impressed with their can-do spirit and the way they got along with each other. The religion isn't for me but I enjoyed our little visit and we ended with a sort of a non-denominational prayer and it was, all in all, quite a lovely experience for me.

Grainlady, thanks for that information about protein content. I've sent an e-mail to Wheat Montana. I looked at their dealer lists. There are no dealers in OK. Several in KS but none closer than 150 miles from me. Same thing for AR and MO. I had no idea protein content, or lack thereof, is why gluten needs to be added. I put off buying a bread machine for years because everybody said you had to add gluten to get a good rise. Then I bought one at a garage sale for $5 and found out they don't need extra gluten at all. My bread machine actually turns out better bread dough than I do. Many times I'm running two at the same time now, and I've given a garage-sale bread machine to each of my children and to one of my friends.

Yes OJ, you are right, networking is the thing. I do kind of keep a mental list of who I know that does what, but my biggest resource lately has been my "bug-man". And I got about a bushel of free pears from a friend of my son's this fall. I must get out more. Been too busy lately, gardening, canning, then we bought the house across the street and we'll be renting it out -- IF we can ever get done working on it, which I'm beginning to wonder about now. --Ilene

    Bookmark   November 26, 2008 at 7:57AM
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Ilene - I use a bread machine for nearly all my bread making. I've converted all my old favorites, even English Muffin dough, to fit in the bread machine. I use an over-night sponge method in the bread machine for 100% whole wheat bread, which makes it as light, fluffy, and high-rising as white bread.

I never bake in the bread machine. In fact, I don't even let the dough rise in it. I like to control that in a dough-rising bucket (I'm kinda a bread science wonk). But the bread machine sure takes the work out of making dough, especially since I've all but destroyed my hands/wrists/arms from years as a professional knitter/crocheter. If it wasn't for the bread machine, we'd get very little bread, instead of me making everything.

They use the Zojirushi bread machine for making dough in the King Arthur Flour test kitchens because it does a better job than by-hand OR a stand mixer.

My MIL always said it wasn't what you know, it's WHO you know - who knows what you need to know, that's important.


    Bookmark   November 26, 2008 at 9:42AM
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Well, this is 175 miles from me, but maybe someone else can use the information.

John and Kris Gosney have a farm at Fairview, OK. Their website www.johnsfarm.com. They sell hard red wheat berries (organically grown on heirloom land) -- kinda reminded me of that soup commercial where the taster says what's in it and where it was grown -- in a 25# pail for $13 and hard white for $17. In a bag it's a dollar less, but probably worth the extra dollar to get a food-grade pail? I didn't check shipping costs. There's also Magee Farm in Alva, OK, which is also about 170 miles from me, selling hard red winter wheat berries $10 for a 25# bag. That's a 3 1/2 hours' drive each way.

I even looked on e-Bay, where they're selling wheat berries to survivalists, apparently, and it's like $80 for 50#. Plus there's postage. Holy cow.

There's a place called Tree of Life in Cleburn, TX. There's a distribution center there. Their website didn't have much other information. Lady Texan, would this help you?

I've called the health food store I usually buy from, but they were too busy and said they'd call back. Must be doing a bustling little business today because it's been about an hour now. I called the only other health food store and they told me the Ozark co-op closed for people in Oklahoma. This health food store can order hard red wheat berries 25# for $17.14 but she didn't know shipping costs and said that was becoming a major hurdle for them now. They're going to call me back, too.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2008 at 12:38PM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM

Ilene, Here is a link to the place where I found the wheat for .70 a pound. I do not know what the shipping runs because I can hopefully pick it up. They also have the wheat mentioned by grainlady but it is more expensive, 19.75 for 25 pounds. I have the largest KA and it does an excellent job of kneading (the dough hook is shaped differently than the smaller ones) otherwise I would have a bread machine for kneading as well.

Oj, while the trip might be fun, I would have to borrow a horsetrailer and fill that with wheat to sell independently to make it worth it. Even though gas prices have dropped, I still drive a full sized truck with a V8 engine, the trip into town is probably my best bet (especially considering what the extra weight would do to the mileage). I have to say that your posts almost always make me smile.

    Bookmark   November 26, 2008 at 2:57PM
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Thanks Tish. I got kinda excited when I saw "free shipping", but, alas, that's only if you buy vitamins. They're based in Colorado. So, so far, my best option is to go with Farmer Direct Foods or not at all. 'Cause I still will have to buy the mill.

I was telling DH about how complicated this is getting, and he said, "Why couldn't you just go to the nearest elevator and buy some from them?" He said there's one in Caney (only 20 miles away) and one in Coffeyville (less than an hour's drive) and that there used to be one in Oglesby. I found a website, www.farmnetservices.com, which lists grain elevators by state. There's not one in Oglesby but there's one in Ochelata, which is quite near here. And there are several in KS, including Coffeyville, Chetopa and Independence, that are close to us. What do you think? Is this more likely to be feedstock grain or would my chances be good to get food-grade grain this way?

    Bookmark   November 26, 2008 at 3:34PM
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Ilene - It's been my experience, most elevators won't sell grain to individuals - I'm completely surrounded by grain elevators (what we call Kansas skyscrapers), and one in every little town as you go down the road. Elevators are there to process, warehouse, and transport grain, not sell it to individuals. This time of the year they will be full of fall crops - milo, soybeans and corn. The wheat has probably been transported to a place with larger storage.

There's an elevator/grain mill across the street from our post office, and you can't even buy grain from them, yet they have food-grade wheat they mill. So look for a mill for wheat, as well as an elevator.

If you happen to get grain from an elevator or a private mill, be sure it's triple cleaned. That will take care of all debris and foreign matter.

I like Wheat Montana wheat because it hasn't been treated with chemicals. You won't know what elevator wheat has been treated with, if that's a concern.

We've gotten wheat that was right out of the combine and winnowed it ourselves using a giant fan and pouring it from one container to another and sifting it with different size screens - but that's WORK! - even for free wheat. This is how we spent one 4th of July afternoon on the patio one year (LOL).


    Bookmark   November 27, 2008 at 9:12AM
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Thanks, Grainlady. I was kinda afraid of that. I probably won't hear back from any of the people I e-mailed until Monday, but I'll let y'all know if I find anything additional out. --Ilene

ps and this is probably my shortest post, ever! Hope everyone had a good TG!

    Bookmark   November 28, 2008 at 8:44AM
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Ilene - I hope you find a good source and the prices go a little lower. In fact, I'd purchase 25#-50# at a time in hopes it DOES go down.

It used to cost me about 15-20-cents to make a loaf of 100% whole wheat bread milling my own flour. Last year's wheat 25#/$5.00 was the most I'd ever paid, but the quality of the Wheat Montana wheat was excellent and worth the price. That raised the price to around 50-cents a loaf.

We had Thanksgiving on the Canadian Thanksgiving - October 13, this year. Our daughter (a school psychologist) and granddaughter were on fall break from school, and our SIL (an Army Officer) is leaving for Afghanistan, so it was his last time to get home before he leaves. I reheated some freezer leftovers from October. EASY-PEASY! ;-) I think we'll have Thanksgiving in October from now on... It sure was nice weather, especially for that 12-hour trip.


    Bookmark   November 28, 2008 at 3:21PM
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Well, I promised an update and here it is.

My local County Extension Agency gave me the e-mail address of a contact for the Farmer's Market group in the next town. I sent an e-mail and finally got a reply today. They said they didn't have any members who grow wheat, BUT they put me in contact with a woman who runs a bakery. She gave me a link for the Oklahoma Food Co-op (something I was told by the clerk at one of the local food stores did not exist), and one of their pick-up locations is only 30-some miles from me. The farmer that grows wheat three hours' drive from me is actually a member of the co-op and sells his wheat berries through them. It looks like it's $13 for a 46 pound pail. I need to do a little reading to learn all the particulars, but at first glance looks like you have to pay about $50 a year for a membership and then you can order stuff once a month and go pick it up. I don't know if there are taxes and shipping, haven't been able to find mention of that anywhere on what I have read so far.

Those of you who are looking for wheat berries, try calling your local bakeries and Google your state and "food co-op" and see if you can turn up anything. Of course, if you are in a state that doesn't grow wheat at all, this probably won't help, but might provide you access to some other reasonably priced goodies. --Ilene

    Bookmark   December 5, 2008 at 7:53PM
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An update on the update -- there is sales tax and there is an 8% shipping and handling charge. I looked at the prices of other things offered and !oh my! apparently the wheat berries are an exceptional bargain when compared to what is being asked for everything else. Of course it is all organic, but golly, $5 to $6 a pound for ground beef and pork, $5 a pound for peanuts, $1.25 for a package of flower seed that contains only a few seed??? They're selling a lot of bakery items at prices that exceed what you'd pay at a neighborhood bakery. Of course it's not growing season now but I'm thinking probably their prices are going to be high on produce in the summer, too. In that case, don't know that I would order anything from them other than the wheat, and when I factor in shipping & handling and sales tax, the price for a $13 pail goes to $15. How many pails would I use in a year, feeding two senior citizens and a male teenager? Enough to absorb the $51.25 annual membership fee? Maybe I could make it work if I also produced things to sell through them, such as jams and jellies, but I'm not sure I want to do that.

The woman at the bakery offered to sell me a couple of 'buckets'. So I've replied to her e-mail asking her if she was referring to the 46-pound pail and if so how much she would sell a couple for. Even if she marked it up to $20 a pail I imagine this would still be good for both of us. This is the price for hard red wheat. The hard white is available but is $5 a pail more than the hard red. So I'm hoping she'll reply and maybe we can work out something that way.

Any other ideas about how I can make this work?

    Bookmark   December 7, 2008 at 10:34AM
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I heard back from the lady at the bakery. She says maybe three of the #13 poly pails would fill a 6-gallon bucket. This doesn't sound like a 46 pound bucket to me. She has offered to pick up extra for me and charge me $15.50 per bucket. I'm going to have her get me a couple of buckets.

I'll try it out, using the soaking method so I won't have to invest in a mill right away, and see how it goes. Apparently this is the best price that can be had in our area if a bakery is buying it.

I will weigh the bucket when I get mine. But I just can't imagine that a bucket that small would weigh 46#.

    Bookmark   December 8, 2008 at 9:31AM
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Hi to all who are asking about grain sources!
Here ia s farm locator from the New Farm website, run by the Rodale Organic Institute folks, --- http://www.rodaleinstitute.org/farm_locator
Maybe there will be someone close to you,

    Bookmark   December 9, 2008 at 7:22PM
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Thanks Kay.

I got zero results within 50 miles of my zip code.

I found out that the wheat berries available at my local co-op are 25# tubs. So I'll be paying $31 for 50#. My new friend / owner of a local bakery said that she started out buying white wheat berries and mixing them with the red but that the price got too high for white. She switched to 100% red wheat and said she actually prefers it.

This still beats getting 50# at Farmer Direct Foods which, with shipping, comes to $43 something. Except that it's white wheat berries which are always a little more expensive than the red. Apparently it's the best price I can get here...

    Bookmark   December 10, 2008 at 9:54AM
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As I read through this post, you caught my attention with your bread rising bucket. What is this? I tried again (I'm at about a 50% success rate) to bake some bread. It tastes OK, but it is definately lacking something. I keep my home at about 65 degrees, and I think my rising times/temps might be off. Is this something that could help me? I really want to get it right because recently just the smell of non-bakery bread makes me queasy. Thanks in advance (and my apologies for sidetracking this informative conversation).

    Bookmark   December 12, 2008 at 11:25AM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM

ruffian (love the name BTW), I cannot answer whether or not the bread bucket will help but if you are interested in looking at them and learning more, King Arthur flour has them. My house is on the cool side so I allow things to rise longer. If I were more proactive, I would put a pan of water that had been boiled into my oven, add the dough bowl/bucket and let it rise in that warmer environment. When I have a fire going in the woodstove, I sometimes let my sponge sit in the living room.

    Bookmark   December 12, 2008 at 11:53AM
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ruffian1 -

tishtoshnm gave the quick, and correct answer. You can get dough-rising buckets (aka dough doubler) through King Arthur Flour. Do a Google search and you can check prices from other sources - KA is one of the highest. If you have a restaurant supply store around, you can get them there. They are food storage containers with a tight-fitting lid. It doesn't matter if they are round or square (I have clear square ones as well). You just want a straight side and a tight-fitting lid. If you have an old gallon ice cream bucket with a lid, it would work. You'll just have to measure the dough with a ruler after you pat it flat in the container, and place a piece of tape where "double" will be.

Make sure you handle the dough with oiled hands. You don't have to grease the dough-rising bucket.

I normally use a 2-quart size for approx. 2-pounds of dough. I have them in a variety of sizes, and depending on how much dough I make will determine which one I use.

These are plastic, food-grade, containers with a tight-fitting lid, that have graduated measurements on the side. When I place 1 quart of dough in the container, place the lid on it, I know it's doubled in bulk when it gets to the 2-quart mark.

FYI - dough never rises to a clock, but rather to the strength of the yeast, hydration of the dough, ambient temperature and humidity. Using a dough-rising bucket will help prevent the guess work and help prevent under- or over-proofing dough.

With the lid on, it's a perfect environment. It isn't affected by drafts. It contains it's own moisture. You don't have to play peek-a-boo with the dough under a towel. Also, slant-sided bowls are deceiving when it comes to accuracy. They are smaller at the bottom than the top. Straight sides will help with accuracy. The old poke-it-with-your-finger test method is also a guessing game and very inaccurate.

Because our flour is no longer bromated, it doesn't have the extensibility it once did when "double" was the norm for proofing dough. Just under "double" is more accurate with today's non-bromated flour and when using freshly-milled flour.

Dough rises fine in the cold kitchen (I also keep the place pretty cold) - it just takes longer. I stick my dough in the dough-rising bucket in the oven with the light on if I need a little more warmth to speed things up. It's about 80°F (a good rising temperature) away from the light. Close to the light is too warm in my oven. Long, cool, rises help develop flavor in the bread - a good thing!


    Bookmark   December 12, 2008 at 5:06PM
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Thank you both for your quick responses. I will give a bucket a try. I think I'll try bread first, but I really want to try sticky buns. The King Arthur Flour had a yummy looking picture to go with a recipe.

(as a child in the seventies, my idol was of all things a racehorse - Ruffian)

    Bookmark   December 15, 2008 at 9:39AM
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Outstanding thread!

Zojirushi bread machines were mentioned. I've heard these 'Z' machines are best.

How do they hold up? It seems the bread machines in the discount stores are all crap nowadays. I use old Welbuilt machines from the late 90's with heavy cast pots. (Had six of them) The cheap machines they sell now are all thin stamped out pots.


How is it holing up GL? I have had many a burr mill but never an impact mill. What goes out in an impact mill...if anything? My burr mills would wear out the burrs over time. How does impact mills compare in this dept.

Also my burr mills had trouble grinding WW flour fine enough and some of the bran was too coarse so I used to sieve some of it out. Do impact mills get the bran pretty fine?

RE oat groats and steel cut oats.

I purchased 2 bags of whole oat groats organic from a co-op. The Canadian oats were dirty, had rocks in them and possibly rodent droppings and were rancid. I bought one bag to test and they were dirty and moderately rancid. So I went back 6 months later and asked if they got some new stuff in. The second bag I bought was more rancid than the first and it had a later date on it.

In my local no sources for god whole oats so I buy steel cut coats and flake them if I want oatmeal. Flaked steel cut oats come out a little fine for me, like coarse cream of wheat. But they smell fresh and look clean right out of the bag. Sad state of affairs that whole grains are such a hard thing to buy and so expensive.

In any case, I now test my grains and take them back if there is any problem with them. Unfortunately could not do it with the Canadian stuff as I waited to long. So chalked it up to experience.

My favorite WW is Bronze Chief. Organic WW berries vary. some produce nice bread others just so-so. Kamut flour stunk in my bread tests, so don't grind it any longer.
One last note....

Be careful about leaving your bread machine unattended. One of mine almost caught fire, but luckily for me I was home. The heating element turned on during rising at full heat power and would not shut off...lots of smoke!

    Bookmark   February 19, 2009 at 9:01AM
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keepitlow -

I've had two Zojirushi bread machines. Wore the first one out. I make all my dough in them - what a great labor-saving device for those of us who suffer arthritis in our hands/fingers, carpal tunnel in wrists, and tennis elbow.

Zo's are used in the King Arthur Flour test kitchens. They say the dough is better than using a stand mixer or making dough by hand.

Impact mills will make a very fine flour. The grain isn't ground, as it is in a burr-mill. Tiny teeth in two plates spin within a hairs measure from each other. When the grain is caught between the teeth, the grain explodes into fine particles - not ground between stones or burrs. The flour is fine enough for making whole wheat sponge cakes. If all you can mill is coarse flour, all you'll get is coarse bread and you'll never have satisfactory baked goods like cake, pastry, and quick breads. The finer the flour the more gluten there is. That's because the bran has also been milled very fine and won't cut the gluten strands like it does when there is large chunks of bran from coarse milling. I still sift whole wheat flour if I'm going to make a cake that requires a fine flour and sift any large bits of bran out. I also use a 3:1 mixture of soft white wheat and oats (or spelt) for making a low-gluten "cake" flour.

Burr mills have their place in the world of milling, but it doesn't include fine flour. I use my burr-mill for coarse grinding.


    Bookmark   February 19, 2009 at 3:41PM
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Thanks GL

How much use did your 'Z' get to wear it out?

I used 2 Welbuilts for almost 10 years and only wore out the pots and paddles every few years. I bought a dozen pots for back ups for my 6 Welbuilt machines when I got into baking in '98. I did loose one machine as I mentioned in the previous post on my machine almost catching fire.

I baked about 600 to 800 loaves in each machine over the 10 years. I retired them to replace with some back up machines just cause I thought they had enough use. But they could still be going if I pull them out of storage.


Do you think the Nurtimill's design is pretty trouble free? Sounds very simple. 2 plates spinning and a motor? What do you think will break down over time? Just the motor?

I was also considering a Whispermill - any feedback?

Getting back to the 'Z" bread machines. Do they use heavy cast baking pots or cheap thin sheet metal stamped out pots?

Lots of debate when it comes to bread machines...some hate em some love em.

I love em.

Bread machines are great for those that have other things to do or are low on energy or have hand / arm injuries.

They also provide back up baking for those with gas oven that may have a gas disruptions. I also use my bread machines to knead dough and pizza to bake in the oven. I run 2 bread machines at a time sometime baking 4 loaves a day with no sweat.

A note on the pots...check you seal in the pot. When it starts to pull away from the spindle and the bottom of you loaf is getting black streaks grease on it and the spindle bearings squeals when mixing...your pot is going out.

Don't make the mistake I did when new to bread machines and I would soak the pots in water to get the bread hook loose. Lazy me would just let them soak all night and water got through the seal and messed up the bearing in the spindle of the pot. So I just soak for an hour or so now.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2009 at 10:01AM
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I haven't any idea how many recipes of bread dough I made in the first Zo. We normally consume one 1-pound loaf of bread each week. Then all the other things made from yeast bread dough.

I also don't bake in it, just use it for making dough. I normally bake in my Sharp Microwave/Convection Oven (bakes a loaf of bread in 20-minutes without any pre-heating - or two loaves in 25-minutes), or bake in one of my Solar Ovens - energy cost for baking - ZERO. I use the Zo at least once or twice a week. Occasionally I'll do a baking marathon for making sandwich buns or other breads for a party or other occasion.

Marathon Method: Make the bread recipe on the Quick Dough cycle. When it's finished kneading (DON'T allow it to rise in the machine), unplug the bread machine, take the dough out and put it in a dough-rising bucket to rise. Add the new ingredients to the bucket and start a new recipe. Making recipes that call for 5-6-cups of flour, I can make enough dough for 6 loaves in about 4 hours - dough to baked loaf - using this method.

I also never allow dough to rise in the bread machine. Bread machines are timed for each rise. Bread rises according to the ambient temperature, humidity level, hydration of the dough, and the strength of the yeast - NOT to a timer. Bread dough doesn't know how to tell time and machines that time the rise are often the cause for under- or over-proofed dough. I prefer controling the rise myself.

I make all our breads - no commercial ANYTHING. I make dough for bread, dinner and sweet rolls, hamburger/hot dog buns, sandwich rolls, English Muffins, pizza dough, etc.... All made with freshly-milled flour. Not all bread machines will do 100% whole wheat breads and some suggest NOT using freshly-milled flour AT ALL! No problem in the Zo.

Q. "Do they use heavy cast baking pots or cheap thin sheet metal stamped out pots?"

A. The pan is pretty heavy. I salvaged the pan and paddles out of the old Zo and they were still in great condition. But once again, I never bake in the thing.

The pans of bread machines aren't supposed to be washed in water, or soaked in water.

When I'm done making dough, I scrape out any dough with a soft silicon spatula. Let the pan sit while doing other things. When the tiny bits of dough have air-dried, you can sweep them out with a dry paper towel, then wash the pan out with hot soapy water on a dishrag, rinse, and dry. Never place the pan in water or wash in a dishwasher.

If your bread loaves are sticking to the pan, you can wrap the pan in a hot, wet towel and that's supposed to quickly loosen the bread. Not sure how well that works....

Rather than filling the pan full of water for soaking it, I'd suggest you lay a wet dishrag on the pan while it's laying on it's side, then turn it over on the other side and repeat. It should only take a few minutes on each side to loosen the stuck-on bread.

I have friends who have been using their original Zo (the little one that only makes 1-pound loaves) - 1-2 loaves a week - since 1997. They also bake in the machine.

My sister had at least 10 thrift store bread machines of various brands. When she finally found a Zo at a thrift store, she understood why I was so loyal to the brand. I teach bread machine classes where everyone brings their machines and I just don't believe how much "junk" there is out there....

The Whisper Mill now goes by the name Wonder Mill and is a great mill. However, for the small price difference, I'd suggest the Nutrimill. I used a Whisper Mill for a LOT of years.

The Wonder Mill mills a little faster than the Nutrimill. On the down side, you MUST have the mill ON when you load the Wonder Mill. You can load the the Nutrimill while it's OFF and you can stop the mill in the middle of milling. If you stop the Wonder Mill (accidently or intentionally) you can lock the mill.

Wonder Mill will only mill fine flour. The Nutrimill will mill a semi-coarse flour - similar to simolina. I use this coarse grind for milling durum wheat into a wholegrain simolina-type flour for pasta/noodles, as well as milling a fine-grind of cornmeal using dent corn. If you like a coarse or medium grind of cornmeal, you won't like this fine-grind. I use my Corona Corn Mill if I need a grind of cornmeal coarser than the Nutrimill can mill.


    Bookmark   February 20, 2009 at 11:29AM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM


I finally got a Nutrimill and love it. You have already answered one of my questions about the coarser grind of corn, so now I need a corn mill (just one more thing to add to the list).

Next, Thursday I should be getting in a 50 lb bag of oat groats. I ordered this before I thought everything thing through and realize that the Nutrimill was going to grind them too fine for the equivalent of steel cut. So how do I make cut oats? (I am going to need be ready with answer for Dh).

Thank you for allowing us to drink from the fount of your knowledge!! :)

    Bookmark   February 20, 2009 at 12:09PM
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tishtoshnm - Congratulations!!!

You can make corn bread with the cornmeal milled in the Nutrimill on the coarse setting. I just normally used a coarser grind than that, but it makes a nice light corn bread and I use freshly-milled wheat flour in the recipe.

Golden Cornbread
(source: Bob's Red Mill)

1 c. cornmeal
1 c. whole wheat pastry flour (I use hard white wheat and get great results - just don't do anymore mixing than it takes to mix the batter together)
1/2 t. salt
4 t. baking powder
1 T. sugar (optional - I use agave nectar)
1 egg
1 c. milk (I usually use 1 c. homemade kefir - homemade or commercial buttermilk would also work)
1/4 c. butter or margarine, softened

SIFT together dry ingredients into bowl (I never sift, just make sure the dry ingre. are well mixed). ADD eggs, milk and butter. BEAT until smooth, about 1 minute. DO NOT OVERBEAT. BAKE in a greased 8-inch square pan for 20-25 minutes at 425°F. SERVE warm with butter and a beaming smile.

WOW! That's a lot of oats. I'd suggest if you don't have one, beg/buy/borrow a FoodSaver and a roll of bags to store you oat groats in. There's a lot of fat in oats and they can go rancid if they aren't kept in a dark/cool storage area. You'll get longer storage if you vacuum-seal them and/or freeze them. I try to only purchase enough oat groats for about 2-years worth at a time.

I have a Marga Mulino Flaker Mill that works for making flakes or a coarse grind, similar to steel-cut oats. The freshly-milled oat flakes cook a little quicker than whole oat groats.

Here are some recipes that might help you out without investing in more "toys".

(source: The Splendid Grain - by Rebecca Wood)

1 c. oat groats
1 piece (3-inches) cinnamon stick
Pinch of salt
4 c. water

Place all ingredients in a slow cooker. Set on high heat, cover, and simmer overnight.

(source: The Splendid Grain)

2/3 c. oat groats
1/3 c. buckwheat groats, toasted
1-1/4 c. milk or soy milk
3 large eggs
2 T. unsalted butter, melted
1/4 t. sea salt
2 T. Sucanat or light brown sugar
1 t. baking powder
1/2 t. grated nutmeg

Combine the oats, buckwheat and milk in a blender container. Cover and let soak refrigerated overnight or for 8 hours. [The next morning...] Blend until smooth. Add the remaining ingredients and process to combine. Preheat a griddle. Drop the batter by the lableful onto the griddle and bake for about 2 minutes on each side, or until golden. Serve hot with the usual pancake accompaniments. [Grainlady note: It's important to soak oats before preparation (according to Nourishing Traditions - by Sally Fallon and Mary G. Enig, Ph.D.). I add 2 T. whey from my kefir or drained yogurt, or you can add kefir, buttermilk, or yogurt to aid in breaking down the hard-to-digest phytates.]

(source: The Nourishing Traditions)

1 c. whole oats
2 c. warm filter water
4 T. whey, yogurt, kefir or buttermilk
1 t. sea salt
2 c. filtered water

Place oats on a baking sheet and bake at 350°F until they turn light brown. Process roasted oats to a medium grind in a home grinder (blender). (The resultant meal should be part flour, part small bits.) Soak from 7-24 hours in a warm place in 2 c. warm water plus whey, yogurt, kefir or buttermilk. (Note: Those with severe milk allergies can use lemon juice or vinegar in place of whey, yogurt, kefir or buttermilk.) The fine flour particles will rise to the top and may be lifted off carefully with a spoon.

Bring additional 2 cups of water and sea salt to a boil, add soaked oatmeal and cook over very low heat, stirring frequently, for about 10 minutes. [Grainlady note: I'd sift the flour out of the mixture rather than skim it off the top.]

Oat flour: 2/3 c. oat groats = 1 c. oat flour.

(uses oat flour AND oatmeal)

Crunch topping:
3/4 c. oatmeal (quick or old-fashioned, uncooked)
1/3 c. firmly packed brown sugar
2 T. butter or margarine, melted
2 T. chopped nuts (I use a LOT more ;-)
1/2 t. cinnamon

Combine all ingredients; mix well.

1/2 c. butter or margarine
2/3 c. firmly packed brown sugar
1 c. mashed banana
2 eggs
1 t. vanilla
1 c. oat flour
3/4 c. all-purpose flour (I use soft white wheat or spelt OR hard wheat and rye in a 3:1 ratio)
1 t. salt
1 t. soda
1/2 c. chopped nuts, if desired (I only put them in the topping)
(I also add 3 T. flaxmeal, but that's optional.)

Beat together butter and sugar until light and fluffy; blend in banana, eggs and vanilla. Gradually add combined dry ingredients, mixing well after each addition. Stir in nuts. Pour into greased 9-inch square pan; sprinkle crunch topping evenly over batter. Bake in preheated moderate oven (350°F) 40-45 minutes or until wooden pick inserted in center comes out clean.


2 c. oat flour
1-1/2 t. baking powder
1/2 t. baking soda
1/2 t. salt
2 T. sugar
1/4 c. butter or margarine
3/4 c. buttermilk
1 egg

Preheat oven to 400°F. Sift together dry ingredients. Cut in butter until mixture resembles coarse corn meal. beat together buttermilk and egg. Add to dry ingredients, stirring with a fork until a stiff dough is formed. Knead lightly on board dusted with oat flour. Flatten into a round 1" thick and 5" in diameter; smooth out edges. Mark into 12 wedges with a knife. Place on ungreased baking sheet. Bake 10-12 minutes until lightly browned. Serve hot with butter and jelly. (source: Allergy Recipes, American Dietetic Association)

Hope that helps you out a bit! ;-)


    Bookmark   February 20, 2009 at 4:00PM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM

Thank you verym uch. It may sound like a lot of oats but I am feeding 6 people. I estimate that it will probably take roughly a year to use it. The recipes look great.

I did mill corn for cornbread when I first got it and it was wonderful. I prefer a coarser grind though for my polenta. Although it did taste absolutely wonderful pulling it out of the crockpot after church.

    Bookmark   February 20, 2009 at 4:14PM
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Thanks GL.

But if you don't use water in your bread pots how do you get the paddle out of it?

Without soaking for a short while I could never get my paddle out.

    Bookmark   February 21, 2009 at 9:45AM
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I never bake in my bread machine, therefore the paddles never stick. Try spraying the paddles with PAM before you put them in the bread machine and see if that helps keep them from sticking. -Grainlady

    Bookmark   February 21, 2009 at 12:44PM
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I forget you don't bake in them GL.

I bake about 85% of my bread in machines. I don't soak the pots underneath but fill the pots up with water about 30% for half an hour or so, until the paddles comes loose.

I'm busy with lots of stuff, so I like the ease of the bread machine and it makes nice big sandwich bread. (At least my old style pots were giant size) In the bread machines I use 75% WWF and 25% unbleached APF.

100% WW is tougher to bake as you noted in machines. For sourdoughs and my 100% WW bread I knead in the machines and bake in the oven.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2009 at 8:54AM
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Just an update, I did buy a couple of buckets of wheat berries from my friend who owns the bakery. She was so nice. She let me use her grinders to mill one of the buckets of wheat. The other I wanted to leave whole for storage, and so that I could sprout some and try them in other ways. She has several Nutrimills and they did a great job, but it took probably about 3 hours to grind the bucket of wheat berries and that was using three mills! I'm keeping my freshly ground flour in the freezer. It's taking up a lot of space and I can see the benefits to having my own mill and only grinding small amounts at a time. I will probably order a mill by the time I have used up what's in the freezer.

I had some flour to use up that had come from the grocery store, so I'm just now beginning to use my whole wheat flour. Oh, I love it! I made my potato rolls using 100% whole wheat, and I let them be quite a bit wetter that my normal dough. I don't think I needed to. I'll try adding more flour next time. The rolls were good but fell a little because of not enough flour. Yesterday I made muffins using 100% whole wheat, applesauce, cinnamon, flax seed oil, a chopped banana, pecans, an egg and some cranberry sauce I had in the freezer from Thanksgiving (I don't know why I even bother, hardly anyone will eat cranberry sauce at my house, even mixed with oranges and chopped nuts.) I didn't add any sugar and I should have, as they're a little tart, but they're still pretty good.

I'm one of those persons that has junky bread machines, and I find them quite satisfactory. You can't beat the price, at $5 to $10 at garage sales for sometimes brand new machines still in the box. I do admit that I think the bake cycle is too long, but I normally use the dough cycle anyway. When I do bake in the bread machine, I just set a little timer for less time than the bread machine shows, tuck the timer in my pocket and go about my business. I like crusty bread. DH is still buying that "whole wheat" Wonder bread. Can you just imagine? I'm working on him. It took me 20 years to get him to stop eating that awful white "nothing" bread.

Keepitlow, those are awfully pretty pictures.

Tish, you can also use oatmeal as a meat extender. I think everybody's had meatloaf with oatmeal in it. I add oatmeal to ground beef for sloppy joes and tacos, too. My menfolk don't know. If they did, the old one probably wouldn't eat it. LOL! He's healthier but he doesn't always know why.

GL, in case I haven't mentioned it before, I'm really glad you post here. You've taught me a lot.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2009 at 10:15AM
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I don't go to garage sales but am tempted to go look see at thrift stores for some Z machines. But in my local, people are low income and probably don't have them. but if I could find a few more old Welbuit machines I'd like to have them.

I like their large upright bread pots. I was thinking that I'd even use them for baking in my oven if all my machines went bust. they back large bread slices that fit my appetite.

And yes Ilene. Fresh milled bread is something isn't it. keep up the good work!

I also make Swedish sourdough, Bavarian sourdough rye with sunflower seeds or cinnamon walnut raisin bread and pizza dough in the machine and finish in the oven in clay bakers. But sourdough has to be fermented over time and is not good to make in a bread machine unless you can custom program it.

My regular bread recipe is

1-1/2c APF
3c WWF
1-1/2 teas yeast
2 eggs and add water to the eggs to bring it to 12 oz
1 tbl sugar
1/2 ts salt

If I travel with my bread I add some vinegar and more salt to keep the mold down.

    Bookmark   February 22, 2009 at 12:31PM
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tishtoshnm Zone 6/NM

Well, I made the oat groat pancakes this weekend and they were wonderful (I soaked some raisins with the oats to replace some of the sugar and that worked very well for us).

In regards to the oxidization of whole grains mentioned above, I had thought about taking the oats and doing the method suggested above for Irish oatmeal but I had thought about doing a large batch and freezing the toasted chopped oats. Would this eleminate the oxidation process or I should I toast, chop, soak and then freeze or is it really just better to do as much as I for each batch I cook?

Thank you very much.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2009 at 12:48AM
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tishtoshnm -

Oxydation (exposure to oxygen) occurs once the bran of a grain has been broken open. Unless you have a way to vacuum-seal the oats (which eliminates oxygen), the grain that has been processed will oxidate. Once a grain is processed, freezing only slows down degredation of nutrients, but doesn't stop it. So my suggestion when using whole grains - FRESH IS BEST! I always try to use any grain that has been processed into flour/coarsely chopped/flaked within 7-days of processing; and store it in the freezer if I can't use it immediately.


    Bookmark   March 3, 2009 at 6:35AM
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