Kitchen Stadium (remade for those faint at heart)

will2kzApril 9, 2013

After a miserable attempt to inundate the GW community with my kitchen remodel, I've been instructed to keep it simpler.
Yes I do interact with those here, and I do want to share what I've learned as it is the nature of this site to do so.

Click me to see a link to the entire photo album.

This post was edited by will2kz on Sun, Jun 16, 13 at 22:45

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In brief, our house was built in 1999. This kitchen, while seemingly nice on the surface, was miserable in terms of functionality. We host large parties (as seen in the album) and it didn't flow well. Furthermore it was not designed for serious cooking as the triangle is actually "too small" and all of the functional items were in one brief spot.

We hired an architect to open the space open and rearrange cabinets. He gave us a few plans.

Basically we removed the central fireplace and remove the pie shaped pantry. We are relocating the pantry to the hallway (thus removing a hall way). This made the room more square and allowed for better islands with more functional space.

If you are interested in the pictures click the link in the first pic. I'd be happy to answer questions about the process, and will create a "before and after" thread when it is all done for the archives. I intend for this thread to be more about the process.

Every subcontractor I've invited in has claimed I've pushed their creativity to a new level. The plumber has three sinks, the cabinet guy made the "rolling china" in the blind corner (see link), the designer made the "hidden pantry" within the cabinetry....

Here are the choices of materials and appliances
Cabinets - natural cherry, upper cabinets with frosted art glass
Floors - repair and reseal maple floors, no stain (pics of this above)
Granite- Orion - This color is probably very different from supplier to supplier and I’d guess the name Orion is applied to many similar but different stones.
Our light fixtures will also have this type of artful clear glass. We really like the way the glass artists made them look like rolled sheets of ice….. I am hoping the lights, the upper cabinet glass, and the backsplash all keep this crystalline/frost glass theme going….

Main sink - Kohler Stages 45 (new) with Grohe Ladylux plus faucet (reusing).
Kohler Stages.
Prep sink - Franke Beaches (floor model) with Kohler Karbon faucet (floor model) see above video for faucet, below video for sink.
Franke Beaches.
Wet bar sink - Ebay Chinese rectangle undermount with Kohler triflow RO, hot, cold faucet (reusing from basement)

Capital Culinarian 48 inch rangetop with grill and griddle (brand new). Y’all have to know what this is, gardenweb essentially created this oven in my mind. I ordered it after January, so supposedly I’ll be one of the first to have a simmer burner factory installed….
Ventahood 48 inch NPHX hood 27 inches deep (last year closeout) - 1200 cfm, but down wired to 600 cfm for inspector (another thread worthy some day).
Thermador Freedom 30 inch fridge, 30 inch freezer, 24 inch wine column - purchased in bulk on Ebay, all new.
Thermador Emerald custom panel dishwasher - I got a deal with the above fridges… wasn’t my top choice.
Asko 5252?DXXL dishwasher - ~3 years old, reusing this (this is an amazing appliance btw).
Miele 4080 steam oven (used, craigslist), Miele Speed oven (new, craigslist), Miele single wall oven (new). All of these are the MasterChef versions.
U-line bar fridge (15 inch under counter, scratch and dent), Hoshizaki residential “nugget” ice machine (used).
Miele coffee maker - splurge, local Craigslist

If you guys have a hard time seeing the pictures in the first link, or prefer a different method, let me know and I will endeavor to find a different hosting site for these pics.

This post was edited by will2kz on Sun, Jun 16, 13 at 22:55

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 7:29PM
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looks awesome from what you have already.. you will love your new kitchen!. can't wait to see when it's done.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 8:25PM
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Thanks, will definitely be back with finished pics, hopefully in a few weeks. In the meantime, be sure to click on the thumbnails and read comments for descriptions. I also think you can add comments to those pics there as well. This forum just isn't suited to dump a lot of pictures inside of it and I'm not going to another image hoster when the one I have is more secure, more modern, and more flexible with my current picture setup.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 10:22PM
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Well, now you're cookin' with gas (or at least will be soon when kitchen is finished).

I really appreciate that you have moved the pics to a view-able site. No wonder poor old GW was bogging down under the load before.

With the new link, even I could (on my pretty modest connection speed) see all the thumbnails in one go.

You project looks very complex and intriguing and I look forward to seeing how it turns out. Don't be afraid to post a couple of teaser pics in your reveal thread (as long as you lighten them up, a lot). That way you'll get more click-throughs to your main photo array.

Your pooch is a real cutie, too!


    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 10:38PM
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Who else thinks liriodendron has a monitor going out? I admit some are a little dark, I don't like to use a flash, but golly, they are all quite visible to me.....
Thanks for following me to a new link.
I'm splitting off separate topics for separate discussions as we go along here. I'll also post some topics in the appliances forum as I owe them much too.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 10:43PM
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Sweet! I've seen a few pics of those hidden pantry or laundry rooms, very interested to hear how it went after things are done.

I'm very distracted by the fact you have the same name as my husband. Given you are a "Y" not an "I" I'm not surprised that you have all these ideas to challenge your crew! DH is a bit out there too, though all the kitchen crazy is me (but my crew is handling it well too).

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 12:16AM
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It's not my monitor, it's the band width required to download the pics in the other thread each time. And there were others who complained of the same thing. Some of those pictures were ginourmous. In this thread, I clicked over to the link and that page d/l completely in about 90 secs. I had lots of empty boxes showing while it was doing so, but all the pics eventually appeared and I could have clicked on them, and seen larger versions I'm sure.

It would also have been fine, as I said above, to have a couple of pics in this thread (providing they were light), along with a link to a photosite where everything was displayed for those who needed more views.

Plus, to be candid, I think there is a recent change in how much detail people display about their project. Perhaps it's the Facebook-i-fication of online communication and of life in general. I haven't made a study of it, but my impression after more than a decade of reading nearly every thread that's posted here, is that fairly recently (last year or so, more or less) people have begun posting dozens and dozens of shots - and that's just the befores and durings. Formerly, we might see a couple of befores and some durings at various milestones, then perhaps a 10-15 views of the completed project in the reveal. Now we see multiple views of every item at every stage. (Not counting responses to specific requests for more detail, or extra views.)

Maybe it's just me, but I'm not terribly interested in lots of detailed shots of a kitchen that is slated for destruction. It may be all-consuming to the poster, but after you've looked at several dozen ratty kitchens, the thrill is gone.

A few pics of semi-assembled cabs boxes and walls with wires hanging out, and I'm also full up. I realize that the project-in-progress reports serve as touchstones for others enmeshed in the same stages.

I adore reveals and I rarely miss one. A dozen pics usually leaves me wanting a few more, but not twenty or thirty or forty more.

What I do very much appreciate seeing are pictures posted in reposnse to other specific queries ("How did you do that?" or "Help, I can't quite visualize this.") Often then we see more of the kitchen.

The change I see now is a kind of photographic journalization of the project, where people seem to be displaying here on GW the kind of detail I would reserve for my Mother, or sister, or best friend. In short, the people who would be truly interested in the myriad details primarily because they were interested in what was consuming my time and focus, not because the content of the picture was inherently interesting. (How many pulled-out drawers of Ziplock bags and waxed paper rolls, before one's eyes glaze over?)

Perhaps this is the result of those apps on mobile phones where people are constantly announcing where they are, and what they are doing, to all of their friends and followers.

Whatever people's tastes in communication, however, nothing works when you post so many heavy-weight pics in a single thread that it becomes difficult or impossible to even open because of the size. There have been a few over the last year that I have never been able to see because of that. If it's an old poster, then I assume they know the drill and aren't going to be dismayed if they don't get a lot of comments. New posters, however, sometimes need some coaching to figure out what works here.

I'm glad you got your pics up in a thumbnail format, and I'm sure that more people (besides me) will now have a chance to see them.

(BTW, just so you know, links to moving picture sites e.g. Youtube and Vimeo also don't work when one has a slow, non-broadband connection like I do.)

Hope to see you posting more and looking forward to more pics of your kitchen.


    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 12:39AM
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I'm eager to see the finished product! And I like your Corgi (though I'm partial to Cardigans myself).

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 9:34AM
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Well, I did try to change the post to satisfy the GW community, but changing my name so I don't distract williamsem? Fraid you're fresh out of luck....

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 5:45PM
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Wow! You are going to be so happy with that beautiful kitchen! I can't wait to see the rolling china cabinet when it's completed. What a great idea. Thank you for all of the photos and commentary! We are in the picking cabinets phase and it's helpful to see and read how this process is going for others!

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 6:01PM
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Well, as long as you really aren't my DH living a seperate life I didn't know about, I'll get past the name! I'm easlily distracted. Just haven't run into that yet, it's especially amusing because he glazes over about 1.6 seconds into anything kitchen related :-)

I've already told him there WILL be hidden rooms and secret passages when we eventually build. It's very exciting to see one in progress! ....oh, and all that other cool stuff too.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 8:50PM
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I have to say I wasn't terribly picky about cabinets. I've known for a long time I wanted cherry, and keeping the style relatively less difficult allowed for more opportunity to play with lines and angles. The doors will be all full overlay, anxious to see how that turns out. The only appliance that could have a panel that doesn't is my old Asko DW (in the pic). I'm not sure a little stainless steel will matter here, but it might be more unusual to have that at cabinet depth rather than door depth... If necessary I'll drill holes through the Asko door to mount a panel on it.... :)

And if your husband is living a second life through me he picked a miserable state to do it in as we just got another 3 inches of snow today with more coming tonight. Yes it's April 10th....!

Artie (the corgi) will make his way into many pictures, he is always curious when the camera is out. Same with my daughter....

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 10:18PM
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i enjoyed your other post. It seems a shame you were cowed into changing it, as there is a vast difference in people's available internet usage, and ways it could be best used. The threads should be labeled with the size so people would know before viewing them, and could make appropriate choices like going somewhere with free wifi, or viewing on their unlimited bandwidth hours.

I admire your equanimity. I would have beaten a hasty retreat if someone had schooled me thus.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 8:44AM
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Wow! Thanks for posting the pictures and the info on the appliances. Looks like it's going to be great. Our house was built and finished in 98 just before everything seemed to really change so I know what you mean.

Looking forward to seeing the finished product and thanks again for posting the progress pictures and info.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 12:52PM
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I changed it because it appeared that the links were breaking somehow, I presume a limitation with gardenweb.
Sure I do like to tell a tale or two, and I will continue to do so, whether you call it verbose social commentary, or off topic.
Many come here for knowledge, some to be inspired, and yes some to be entertained or socialize. I spend my life writing for the scientific community where I'm allowed little laxity from the straight and narrow, so a place to digress about something I like with, hopefully, likeminded individuals is nice. No, you can't all be my facebook friend. No my facebook friends aren't all kitchen nerds like you. But I do appreciate comments for brevity, and sparing bandwidth, as I clearly created technical glitches before.
And now you can see all 110 pictures and growing in one spot.

Today the shelves in the hidden pantry are getting finished and the cabinet doors come tomorrow.
Next week is paint and varnish.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 4:58PM
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I think the Kohler stage sink is awesome.. I just saw it recently, but i already had my kitchen reno.. too late.. :P

look for my kitchen reveal soon. :P

    Bookmark   April 13, 2013 at 6:12PM
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Wait a minute! You have a corgi? I need to follow this thread now to see more pictures of him/her (hint,hint). I just showed my DH the photo and he said "That's the dog I always wanted". We have a sable boy and love him like a son- as you can see from my name:)

    Bookmark   April 13, 2013 at 7:20PM
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It will be interesting to see it completed. Will the rolling cabinet have a countertop that goes under the existing counter? Or is it part of the countertop? If you are interested, it took about 30 seconds for me to load your album and for me to scan all the photos and click on the few I was interested in looking at more in depth.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2013 at 7:30PM
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I can't see a link. Is the garden web "bugs" still at work, or did something get changed.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2013 at 10:43PM
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This is our second Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Yancy:

And our first one, Topper:

When we lost him to cancer 2 years ago, my 16-yr-old son said "Mom, there's a great big Corgi-sized hole in this house". We got Yancy (from the same breeder) 2 weeks later. Once you go Corgi, you never go back!

    Bookmark   April 13, 2013 at 11:55PM
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Link is at the bottom of the very first post.
I hope 30 seconds is not a bother. If others post similar findings I can try to remove some pictures, but I'm not sure that is the rate limiting step as thumbnails should dump really quick.

Yes the rolling china will have a butcher block top to make it functional, maybe for small prep, but mostly a reasonably durable surface to serve from. It will match the butcher block I put on the small island and in the pantry which will also have a functional countertop for small appliances.

My corgi is Artie, long for R2D2. My daughter's idea. He is 1.5 years old and full of charisma and charm. He is our third since married, but our only at the moment.

    Bookmark   April 14, 2013 at 9:45AM
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OK, reveal is present. Go to original link and scroll for final pics at end of album. I'll post a few, and may make a new link with before and after. I really don't want to open a better picture hosting site just for this, as I'd like to think I can make my skydrive through microsoft work.

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 10:28PM
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Some of you may have caught my separate posts on the blind corner rolling china cabinet, and the prep island. Here they are too.

Here is a link that might be useful: blind corner post

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 10:34PM
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Here is prep island post

Here is a link that might be useful: prep island

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 10:37PM
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hidden walk-in pantry

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 10:38PM
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fridge on right, freezer on left. This was our old hallway that we closed in.

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 10:39PM
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spice rack next to rangetop

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 10:44PM
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Culinarian Rangetop with grill and griddle. Vent-a-hood above with warming rack.
I installed that glass tile last week. It is a mixture of three different styles and is impossible to photograph easily.

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 10:51PM
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try this. I cut into a paper faced frosted tile to insert about 10% clear tiles and 5% blue tiles from the same manufacturer. My granite has blues and blacks of this hue, and I have frosted glass, and white in my granite elsewhere. I didn't want to compete hard with the granite which is already lively, but I wanted a little color in it. As nobody made what I wanted, I made it myself....

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 10:54PM
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Love my Hoshizaki nugget ice maker. Bought it used on Ebay, put about $400 worth of parts into it, but it's a beast, and hopefully will stand true to its commercial heritage.

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 11:03PM
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stages 45 sink. Yes, with measurement and a dremmel tool you can make it fit over a dishwasher into a 36 inch base cabinet

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 11:05PM
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At first I thought this was a big mistake, but it is growing on me. Very convenient. We use it as much for laptops and items coming from sitting side as we do appliances.

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 11:07PM
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another angle to see working space from living room

    Bookmark   June 16, 2013 at 11:09PM
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Well, I love having all the pictures to look at for the details! Having it on the fast loading link with some representative pictures on this thread is ideal for my home system.

Can I ask if the asko is the only dishwasher that would fit under the stages sink, and if so, which model? How high is the one that you have?

I don't have time to study everything right now but will be going back to it. Beautiful cabinets and wonderful functional details, thank you for posting and sharing!

    Bookmark   June 17, 2013 at 9:20AM
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Your creativity is amazing! Thanks for posting all of the pictures. I think the hidden pantry is my favorite thing, but there are so many wonderful features it's hard to pick one! I'm sure you are loving your new kitchen!

    Bookmark   June 17, 2013 at 9:41AM
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My asko dishwasher is a tall tub and my counters are 35.5 inches tall. Basically the Asko is sitting on the ground and there is an eighth inch maybe between the DW and the sink with the rack holders cut off. If you look at the specs for the Asko dishwasher you would say its not possible, but the height is measured from the "highest point" which happens to be in the front, NOT where the dishwasher and the sink would interact. I actually removed my dishwasher to measure it before I ordered the sink. All good. Most builders are going 34.5 with counters which would make this a trick. I can tell you that the F&P dishdrawers are the best option as even the double unit is the shortest "full size" dishwasher out there from past experience.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2013 at 5:04PM
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Lot of great ideas. I love the hidden pantry and the roll out. Looks like you will enjoy the kitchen many years to come :)

    Bookmark   June 17, 2013 at 7:05PM
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I've been looking forward to seeing this, wish I were part of the crowd for whom you regularly cook so I could enjoy in person. Really like your cabinets, style and color. Am eyeing your CC, like the grill + griddle combo. (We have 6 burners + grill and sometimes I wonder if I would have been happier with the griddle). Fabulous, fabulous pantry. Also, the Stages sink is like the one who got away; I still lust after the concept when I see one. Do you love it?!! Love the glass you selected. Your Ventahood and Rack look perfect for the space. Congratulations on a fabulous space and may the Entertaining Begin! Best, oldbat2be

This post was edited by oldbat2be on Mon, Jun 17, 13 at 22:11

    Bookmark   June 17, 2013 at 9:45PM
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Love the grill. Gets too cold and snowy to keep my egg outside open. Also ceramic freezes shut in the winter. Great way to get a burger or chicken breast cooked fast. I also prefer asparagus, squash etc over a grill. The grill was the one feature that steered me away from Bluestar. I'd say bluestars burners may get a smidge better as the grates can be turned for height, and all are wokkable, but the grill feature is no better than a weber gas grill. The grill on the CC is very high end and of the same design as their outdoor grills. Extremely thick cast iron grates, porcelain rods for heat retention, grease channels.... yes much nicer. Now the griddle doesn't heat all that evenly with a cold run down the middle, but....

Here's a shot looking out of the pantry.... sort of random, but I like it.

    Bookmark   June 17, 2013 at 10:14PM
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Congratulations on completing your space! What a lovely color of cabinetry and counter to go with the beautiful green outside. There is so much to admire, I don't even know where to start --- the sinks -- the hidden pantry -- the equally hidden fridge/freezer -- the spice storage --- the ice maker ---

(I too, am a proud servant to a corgi)

    Bookmark   June 18, 2013 at 2:21AM
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Maybe corgi owners have a connected affliction for kitchen remodeling too? Not sure I've got the rationale figured out....

    Bookmark   June 21, 2013 at 12:39AM
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Beautiful, functional space, congratulations! I love that you sought out creative solutions and they all worked. Thank your young model for demonstrating the slide out, too cute to see her little hand there. I wonder what she thought of your space going from lovely and functional, through the full demo, and then being so much lovelier and user friendly than before? It took guts to do such a major remodel, did you live there during the process? How many weeks from demo to done?

    Bookmark   June 21, 2013 at 7:22AM
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4 months. Lived in basement where we have a full wetbar, and a single dishdrawer. Moved old fridge down there, bought a 40$ single electric burner, and moved old microwave and our champ the Breville toaster oven down there. Had to walk through construction everyday to get from bedrooms to basement but not bad.
Yes, I hear the comment "Why did you have remodel your pretty kitchen" all of the time. Those that have cooked with me know immediately, it wasn't a cooking kitchen. It was fine for entertaining, sort of, but not really a functional space for the type of cooking I like to do.

Thanks to all for the compliments. We are loving it. No it wasn't cheap, and I worked very hard to save money. Most appliances are scratch/dent/ebay/craigslist. In fact all but two are. I saved about 40% on these items going this route. I did have to source missing parts and do some repairs, but I like this, and it doesn't really bother me.

Hats off to the subcontractors: plumbing, electrical, and cabinetry to pull this off was a trick, but each was an artist.

The cabinetry is obvious, the full faced doors are all spot on, butcher block tops, drawers, panels, rolling china cabinet... Challenged in many ways.

The electricians had to run a 100 Amp subpanel closer to the kitchen. There are 3 240 runs alone for those ovens. They wired the LeGrand Adorne system under the cabinets. So functional, and discrete.

The plumber had to get a drain and water lines over to the wet bar, as well as stub a spot over to the prep island. There are two "island loops" under each island.

The granite guy fabricated the steel sheet to hold the large overhang over the rolling china. Still cheaper than a china cabinet I don't have room for elsewhere.

I got to run the central vac pan under the ovens, the reverse osmosis water lines, install the sinks, the hoods, the appliances, the tile backsplash. I also installed the lights, most of the switches, and did 50% of the painting. I even pleaded my case with the city inspector on the issue of make up air for my hood. My contractor was a patient man letting me be so involved, but I chose him for this reason.

Do you think I should make a separate reveal post and post just before and after pics? I do plan on getting some done better and submitting to Houszz as that service was quite helpful to me as you all were.

    Bookmark   June 21, 2013 at 11:50PM
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I like your thread the way it is, and intend to use the pictures to prepare my family for our own demo. I would love some detail on your RO system! Where is it, what model, and how far do the lines have to go?
Your posts about appliances affirmed my choice to save by using floor models, and your lovely granite influenced my choice (to be finalized this morning). And when I worry that I'm working my GC too hard I say to myself, "well, it isn't like I asked for an integrated china cabinet".
I think the Finished Kitchens Blog is the place for straightforward before/after/details threads -

    Bookmark   June 22, 2013 at 6:42AM
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I have an APEC water system, only available online, but its my second one and I like it. I got the upgraded water tank and the "permeate pump." These two features boost the water pressure at the appliances, which more closely mimics what the appliances are expecting if hooked to tap water.
It is the ceiling of my basement, covered by a drop/suspended ceiling. Its below my pantry. I had the plumber fish PEX tubing from all of the sites I needed RO water to that spot in the basement, then fed 3/8 OD polypropylene drinking water lines through each. I have it going to an instant hot water at main sink, the ice maker, the 3 way sink faucet at the bar, and the coffee maker. I also plumbed it to my freezer which has an icemaker I don't really need, but you never know. It also feeds my downstairs bar, which is right next to the water system.... I'd recommend the lead free brass connections with plenty of teflon tape, and tighten things well. The push in style do work, but you've got to be really sure they are pushed in or you will flood if halfway then bumped.
I also have a valved line under my sink so I can fill 5 gallon buckets to make water for my saltwater fish tanks (can't use tap water for this).

Crystal clear ice, great flavor, happy camper, happy fish, no scale in coffee machine....

PS you can't use RO water in steam ovens. The steam generator requires ions for its process, and RO water may corrode the system after a while.

    Bookmark   June 22, 2013 at 7:14PM
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Oh wow, this is amazing.

I think you should do a new thread specifically titled as a reveal. The pantry is fabulous!! I would love to see more details all in one place, re. your sinks, your storage optimizations, etc.. Such wonderful features in this kitchen.

I suspect a lot of people aren't clicking on this because of the "faint of heart" in the subject line. I almost didn't because I remember trying to open it several times months ago and it crashed my computer every time (I assume b/c the photos were so large and not resized). So if you do a new thread just titled as a reveal I think you'll get a lot more viewers.

And this is worth seeing! Congrats on a great reno.

    Bookmark   June 22, 2013 at 8:49PM
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