How long does it take for joint compound to dry and cure before we can put a sealer on it? and then paint it....
There are a lot of different kinds of joint compound. The drying time varies from overnight to a 45 minutes and should be listed on the packaging.
Thanks for the answer. so that means we can put the sealer on right away????
You can seal any time after the drying time on the container.
However, with normal compound, that drying time is for normal applications. If a deep(more than 1/2") of compound was applied(to fill a hole/gap) the drying time will be longer.
Would you actually follow an opinion from the internet rather than the recommendations of the manufacturer listed on the packaging?
Drying time listed on a label is for drying under optimal conditions. If these conditions aren't met, it will not dry in the stated time. You should paint only when it is _actually_ dry, not when it should be dry based on a label. If it has patches that are darker in color than the periphery, or if is feels cold and clammy, it is not yet dry enough to paint. Painting over damp compound is asking for a blister or a peel.
I assumed the OP wanted advice for planning purposes. In the actual performance of the work is is easy to tell when the work is dry enough for paint.
thanks for all the help. I didn't meant to start an argument....we are sealing it today...
As SM stated, one of the easiest ways is simply feeling the mudded area for temperature. Even if the room is extremely warm, if the mud isn't dried completely, it will feel cold. When it warms up, it's typically dry throughout. Many factors contribute to drying time including the amount of humidity in the area, the temperature, and how heavy the application.
"Would you actually follow an opinion from the internet rather than the recommendations of the manufacturer listed on the packaging?"
Because drywall mud companies do not list a time for painting?
They normally list a time for drying which is what the OP asked about. Nit pick that if you can.
The normal drying time for the compound is not normally long enough for painting.
Notice the can says nothing about painting?
All it is addressing is another coat of compound.
Even many of the paint manufacturers do not provide decent instructions for drying time for new drywall that is to be primed.
The phrase they like is often along the lines of 'thoroughly dry.'
You win. You are the king of nitpickers.
Actually, in most cases, using that brand of mud, and when the temperature is at or higher than 75 degrees and the humidity is less than 50%, the last coat of three properly applied mud does not need 24 hours to dry to sandable and paintable texture.
Of course, that is just how I have done many jobs, both repair and new installation. The first two coats had 20+ hours to dry.
The third coat sometimes was sandable in as short a time as 6 hours.
Now, in most of those cases, I did work in the same house later, even 2 years later. I always checked the paint job---no problems from the drywall part.
brickeye is not a 'nitpicker'.
He is spot-on correct.
And unlike macv, brickeye and others here speak as seasoned contractors... having actual real world experience in applying, finishing and painting of drywall....not just some passing fancy knowledge that comes from reading a label on a bucket.
While the manufacturer's installation instructions may indicate what 'should' be expected under 'controlled' temperature and humidity conditions...
...One never encounters these ideal conditions on a job site...The label instructions therefore remain largely meaningless from what is encountered in day to day reality as anyone experienced with applying and finishing joint compound knows....where drywall is taped and finished in winter...in houses heated by temporary gas heaters introducing moisture into the atmosphere...and where surface temperatures can vary markedly even in a single room....or even in hot, rainy summers where high humidity conditions can prevent drying of joint compound for days or even weeks...
Macv doesn't know any of that because macv obviously has never finished drywall let alone even painted it.
Experienced professionals can advance or retard 'drying times' in the field by using calcined joint compound mixes which harden by chemical reaction, not drying, and by varying in them mixed amounts of 'drying type' compounds.
Such mixes can vary in 'drying time' from a few minutes with a 'stiff' 20-minute setting-type compound to hours more than what should be expected with a 'loose' 90 minute setting-type mix.
Knowing what to do comes from experience with the materials...not reading labels.
The bottom line is: There IS NO SET TIME THAT IT TAKES JOINT COMPOUND TO CURE regardless of what the label may allege...and anyone who has any professional experience with joint compound knows that...
He just made notes on his plans about the drywall and joint compound labels...like any architect... so he can't get sued for knowing nothing about what he draws or designs....
Manhattan42, you appear to have some sort of grudge against architects and Macv in particular. Almost to the point of being a stalker.
It would be one thing if there was anything helpful about your comments, but there are not.
Leave the nitpicking to Brickeyee (note the spelling) who excels at it.
No one's right or wrong here or nitpickin', it's always a good idea to read mfgr's labels but in a real world, they cant always be followed as, like in most cases, products layed down concerning drying, curing, are largerly dependent on the conditions surrounding where it is applied. Hands on experience gives you more of a feel in the area where you are used to working, the labels can only act as a minor guide and most mfgr's will state that their "drying times" are only subject to ideal conditions setting recommended room temperatures when applied. There are many times and instances when "ideal conditions" dont exist. That's when hands on experience plays a part in a succesful application.
Of course brickeyee is correct. He does exhibit a great deal of actual expertise based on an obvious accumulation of knowledge gained from practical experience. I said much the same things about drying times, he just said it much more concisely than I.
Using the setting-type muds is no guarantee that they will be paintable in a shorter time. They will still have a high moisture content and clammy feel long after they have set up by chemical reaction. They were invented because they set faster and the finisher may proceed to the next coat of mud without stopping, not for the convenience of the painter. Durabond is an expedient, not a magic formula.
To recap, hardness doesn't necessarily equate with readiness for painting. It s all about moisture content.
In a conditioned house I normally schedule at least a solid 24 hours between a final thin coat of mud and any priming or painting, and then check to make sure it feels dry.
Blistering paint from not allowing sufficient drying time is not a good way to impress customers.
If there is any question I use a moisture meter to check against the plain drywall in the same area.
Casey makes a good point about setting compound.
While you can apply another layer as soon as it sets, it still needs to dry all the way through before painting.
My point was that I would trust the packaging before any comments on this forum since no one here knows what the OP is using or what the conditions are. He could be using all-purpose joint compound or a setting type; the humidity could be high or low, etc. But some of you don't care what I said, you only want to belittle another contributor.
I understand why Manhattan42 does it; I continually correct the silly things he says. If you don't believe it search the archives. Someone has to do it or the forum would be overrun by posers and trolls.
I think is should be obvious by now that the instructions on the container are general at best and should be used as a guide instead of absolute procedure. There are all kinds of variables involved.
One other thing, that product pictured above does include painting information.
"My point was that I would trust the packaging..."
Since the drywall mud packaging is only talking about adding another layer of mud, it is of no practical value to the OPs question of "How long does it take for joint compound to dry and cure before we can put a sealer on it? and then paint it...."
The minimum time for the mud to be ready for another coat of mud is going to be shorter than what is required for primer and paint.
I've almost always found it better to listen to someone like Brickeye who has experience rather than relying on labels. Manufacturers perform tests and independent studies and recommend accordingly, sometimes voiding any warranties if not followed, but in the real world, it doesn't always make it the best application.
While you guys are arguing the size of a flea, the OP sealed their walls six days ago!!
Again, testing and labeling are fine....
But only if one can replicate the testing and labeling conditions in the field on such labels...
But this rarely happens.
That said, macV's nonsensical statements have NOTHING to do with any bias on my part against 'architects' or 'designers' and EVERYTHING to do with people, like MacV, who have absolutely NO personal CLUE or WORK experience in, any kind of "field" in which they claim (ahem) some type of "expertise".
Simply put, MacV is a LIAR....because he has NEVER hung or finished drywall and has NO IDEA HOW to do it properly.
..if at all.
Ah, the internet, where anonymity allows the making of spurious charges that otherwise might entail tort for libel.
Jobsite experience would likely mean getting decked or upended into the dumpster or port-a-pot.
Internet troll (from Wikipedia): "In internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
Here we have the king of home improvement trolls who posts to a half dozen sites viciously insulting those who correct his misinformed, arrogant, confrontational comments.
One of my favorite responses to this nonsense was on the ICC Code Chat forum when he insisted that the IRC did not allow brick to be placed below grade on a foundation wall and wanted confirmation from the building inspectors there so he could go back to another forum and discredit the statement of an architect (guess who):
tsmith (frequent contributor): "This is one of the most wrongheaded code misinterpretations I've ever heard. The detail is perfectly common practice and has been for at least 3 decades that I've witnessed."
No, I'm not tsmith but I have contributed to the ICC forum for years and got a kick out of seeing a troll suddenly join the forum just to discredit me and then get slammed by the pros.
If you want a some more good laughs here are the best silly troll quotes in 10 categories (followed by a commentary in case any are not obvious):
1. RADIANT BARRIERS
"Foil on sheathing does not require an air space and is designed to reflect infra-red radiation (ie HEAT) away from the house or to retain it inwardly. Saying foil faced structural sheathing without an air space won't work as designed is like saying a Toyota won't work when buried as plant fertilizer."
a. "6 mil polyethylene plastic has a perm rating of 1 if I remember correctly."
b. "4 mil plastic will do little to stop moisture flow. You generally need at least 2 layers of 6 mil plastic laid with all seams taped or sealed even at the walls or foundation."
c. "4 mil plastic is "waterproof" but it is not "vaporproof".... 4 mil plastic has a relatively high perm rating which means that it readily allows gaseous water to flow thru it."
d. "One thing you got correct, however, is that 4 mil poly is 3 times less able to retard water vapor than 6 mil poly, and why it is not permitted as a true vapor barrier by building codes."
e. "The problem with all the scientific rhetoric is that is does not take into account the reality that gaseous water (humidty) passing up through the concrete can be well more than 100% and that the tempartures can drop well below freezing."
a. "Ceiling and floor joist 'notches' are regulated by building codes and the limits established by acceptable engineering practice and tables. . In end 'thirds'... (the 1 to 4 foot length from either end)... you are only allowed to notch the joist along the top or bottom only to a depth of D/3...or 1/3 the depth of the joist. If you have a nominal 2x8 joist, your actual depth is 7.25 inches. This means the maximum depth of any top or bottom notch in end 3rds can be 2.42 inches or ~2 7/16ths inches deep."
b. "A 70psf snow load blows all your calculations and the table you are using right out of the water. And forget completely using single 2x12s even at 12" on center... Personally, for loads this great I would not even considered spanning anything greater than 4' with 2x12s 16" on center."
c. "The maximum cantilever you can have is no greater than the nominal depth of the wood. maximum cantilever on a 2x10 is 9 1/4"."
a. Under the 2003 IRC, MAXIMUM riser height for any stair is 8 1/4"... MINIMUM tread depth is 9"...
b. "Most US Codes require the underside of egress stairs to be covered with drywall to prevent their collapse and to effect safe escape if a fire occurs on a lower story. Won't be any protection from flames and smoke if a fire occurs in a well below stairs with open risers."
a. "The $49 Latin American import model from the big box store will work as well as the 'Toto' or any other expensive esoteric brand under the same conditions."
b. "Yes! We WILL have to agree to agree to disagree... Especially since I KNOW what I am talking about and you do not... I AM a professional in my field and you are not... and the science in this matter is not debateable! :)"
"While it may be 'common' to construct block or poured foundation walls on concrete footings that have been allowed to sit for 2-3 days, NO respectable builder...NO respectable architect...NO respectable engineer and NO respectable designer who knew what he was doing would EVER recommend ANY concrete product to be built upon or be considered 'cured' after only 2-3 days... regardless of mix...regardless of weather...regardless of circumstance. Â. Only someone who was completely INEXPERIENCED and had no actual expeience as a builder or mason would suggest otherwise or would suggest something so silly.... 28 days minimum for curing. Â Period."
a. "Black mold is no more dangerous than any other mold. Â In short, just wash the mold off with a 50%-50% bleach to water solution and some soap and water and your problems will vanish."
b. "Put a solution of 1:1 (50% to 50%) water and chlorine bleach in a spray bottle. Throughly saturate the area with the solution and leave overnight. The mold/mildew will be completely gone by morning. Repeat weekly and you'll have no further problems."
a. "In most cases anything thicker than 1/2" plywood is just a waste of money for most roof sheathing. But the real answer depends upon your local laods and conditions. Unless you have extremely high wind and or snow loads, or have rafter or truss spacing more than 24" on center.... Then 1/2" plywood or 7/16ths inch OSB is all any reputable builder would require despite cries to the contrary from designers and others who have never built anything...."
b. " ÂCollar TiesÂ are not required with cathedral ceilings. What is required is that once your ceiling joists/cross laterals that hold the bearing walls together are raised above the top plate of the bearing walls.... The ridge must be designed as a bearing girder as wianno previously stated... AND, the rafter spans need to be reduced and the rafter depths increased as a ratio of how high above the top bearing wall plate they are raised."
c. "The IRC requires a derating of the spans of rafters whenever the ceiling joists are raised above the top plate of the bearing walls. The higher the crosslaterals or ceiling joists above the top plate of the bearing walls and the closer to the ridge beam they are located, the shorter the span of the rafters can be.... The ridge board must also be designed as an actual ridge girder anytime the ceiling joists/crosslaterals are raised above the top plates of the bearing walls under the IRC."
d. "No shingle manufacturer, however, allows their products to be installed on less than a 2 1/2:12 under any circumstance, and local wind velocity conditions may further limit shingle use."
"That said, residential sprinkler systems will only add a few hundred dollars to the cost in most instances. Thank innovations in plumbing pipe systems such as PEX for the low cost of adding a sprinkler system to a new home."
10. DESIGNERS AND ARCHITECTS
a. "That is what makes claims by 'architects' so comical when people like me...who review architect designed plans for code compliance for a living...can usually pass about 2 plans in 10 because architects just have no clue."
b. "Designers never have to 'think' beyond the point of getting their plans paid for by a potential owner nor approved by the local code official. It is easy for a designer to 'think' he has it 'right' when he refuses to consult with the builders or code officals...has no actual hands-on personal building experience...and is isolated in his office at his desk making up things that may or may not exist all day."
c. "Designers and architects are not typically the solution..they are typically the problem... And why consultations with your builder and code officials even more important than conversation with your designer. So don't be fooled. I'm not...and will continue to challenge 'non-sense' passed off as 'good sense' by some designers here...who really have little idea of what they speak...and are happy to be recognized for that ignorance...."
d. "That said, macV's nonsensical statements have NOTHING to do with any bias on my part against 'architects' or 'designers' and EVERYTHING to do with people, like MacV, who have absolutely NO personal CLUE or WORK experience in, any kind of "field" in which they claim (ahem) some type of "expertise". Simply put, MacV is a LIAR....because he has NEVER hung or finished drywall and has NO IDEA HOW to do it properly. ..if at all."
(1) Infra-red energy can only exist in a space so aluminum foil without an air space next to it conducts heat instead of reflecting it.
(2a) 6mil poly is rated at .06 perm and is therefore considered Class I "vapor impermeable" by ASHRAE and a vapor retarder by the IRC.
(2b) 4 & 6 mil poly qualify as acceptable vapor retarders under all codes.
(2c) 4 mil poly is rated at .8 perm and is therefore considered Class II "vapor semi-impermeable" by ASHRAE and a vapor retarder by the IRC.
(2d) 4 & 6 mil poly both meet the IRC vapor retarder definition of having a permeance rating of 1 perm or less. The IRC has no requirement for a "vapor barrier".
(2e) Perhaps on another planet.
(3a) IRC R502.8.1 actually limits this notch to D/6 instead of D/3.
(3b) Accepted engineering practice would limit the span to about 13 ft. instead of 4 ft.
(3c) The IRC says 18" to 29" per table R502.3.3(1) for a one story projection. A deck cantilever would be similar but should be designed by an engineer not a building inspector. By the way, the "nominal" depth of a 2x10 is 10"; the actual depth is 9 Â¼".
(4a) The 2003 IRC actually requires 7 Â¾" max. risers & 10" min. treads.
(4b) The IRC only requires drywall protection if the space below the stair is enclosed which would obviously not be the case for a typical open riser stair.
(5a) Toto is esoteric?
(5b) Toilet science? Is this troll humor?
(6) Curing and 28-day strength are not relevant; the compressive strength of the footing should be strong enough to carry the wall in a matter of hours which is why the ACI and other codes set no limit for when this can be done.
(7a) The CDC recommends: "Mold growth can be removed from hard surfaces with commercial products, soap and water, or a bleach solution of no more than 1 cup of bleach in 1 gallon of water." ThatÂs a maximum ratio of 1:16.
(7b) DonÂt try this at home, especially if the surface has been washed with a cleaner containing ammonia.
(8a) In NRCA tests the use of nominal 5/8" instead of Â½" roof sheathing increased shingle nail pullout resistance by 20% in plywood and 30% in OSB. The increase was 50% for ring-shank nails in OSB.
(8b) For this condition it would be appropriate to use stronger rafters from the code table or to use a ridge girder but not both which would be structurally redundant.
(8c) Again, it should be obvious that when a structural ridge girder is provided, the rafters can be sized using the regular tables since the loading and span have not changed.
(8d) CertainTeedÂs standard specification says: Roof Slope Between 2:12 and 4:12: Apply one layer of "WinterGuard" or two layers of 'RoofersÂ Select' or D4869 underlayment.
(9) Residential sprinkler systems are obviously considerably more expensive than 10 Â¢ / s.f.
(10a,b,c,d) Read the statements above for examples of true nonsense, ignorance.
macv, you have clearly been holding all of this in for quite a while. Have you actually been filing away all of those posts or did you just compile them today?
I hope you feel better now after your catharsis.
Whomever is the actual source of your angst, if the same person in all of those cites, is a remarkable douche. A windbag of that caliber is a true spectacle to behold in all his majestic douche-iness, and for bringing him to our attention, we thank you.
#'s 1-10 are fairly current and doesn't even scratch the surface for the many times the troll has stuck his foot in his mouth.....many times over the years. Typically if history repeats itself, all will be quiet on the western front, (Or should I say in the Manhattan area, eastern front), for awhile until once again, he'll rear his ugly head!
The comments of trolls often get deleted by moderators (a common occurrence in this case) so I have learned to make a copy while I can. You should realize these comments are often addressed to me. I also like to keep copies of my comments; some are surprisingly good. Discussions not deleted are still available through a Google search or the search function at forums like the one linked below. Fortunately, his ego won't let him use another name. I have had several names because I don't enjoy having discussions trashed by trolls but eventually he finds out I'm an architect and gets nasty.
On the internet, you can slander but you can't hide.