Marcolo, did you ever decide on a yellow paint for your cabs?

dazedandconfusedApril 9, 2013

Hi Marcolo,

I've been following your kitchen saga, in the shadows, but can't find the post where you made the color " announcement". I am in the midst (end stages) of planning a kitchen renovation as well so, I can relate. I like the feeling you're trying to achieve in your kitchen. Good luck with everything. I can't wait to see the completed kitchen.

This post was edited by dazedandconfused on Tue, Apr 9, 13 at 15:22

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Howdy! Thanks for asking.

So, the plan is BM Golden Straw if we stick with a two-tone Marmoleum floor. However, budget concerns and general nervousness about that much Marmoleum (I've never seen a big sample of my color) may back us into continuing our oak floors into the kitchen.

If we do that, we'll stick with the original Philadelphia Cream--it looks great with the Provincial stain.

Although at this point, I'm not sure what's happening with the kitchen at all. Ugh.

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 8:26PM
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Circus Peanut


    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 8:40PM
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Yeah, marcolo, what's up?

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 8:47PM
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I was wondering about color too! I searched out your old thread last week.

We have Provincial stain on our floors as well.

I hope all is okay- good luck!

    Bookmark   April 9, 2013 at 10:18PM
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Hope everything is ok over there. I hope that fantastic kitchen will still happen for you, there's a lot of us here dying to see the result of all the hard work you've done!

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 12:24AM
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Yeah, what's up? We need a status update!

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 7:57AM
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That's great! Seems like you have really narrowed down the cabinet colors and flooring. I really like both BM colors you chose. Can't go wrong with either one! What countertop material are you using? What two colors did you choose for the Marmoleum?

Also, do you have a mood board for your kitchen or are all the different elements and finishes just in your head?

We've been waiting for construction plans from our architect for three weeks now. It's very frustrating when aspects of the renovation are out of our immediate control, isn't it? I hope whatever your issue or obstacle is, it'll be resolved ASAP:)

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 7:59AM
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Circus Peanut

Do check in, M; I could use one of your inspired rants about corrupt contractors and incompetent designers.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 8:50AM
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Ahem. Well. We were supposed to start over a week ago. We didn't.

I don't want to go into every detail while we're still wrangling over things.

But basically, the original bid came back in the ballpark but still too high. We all sat down and figured out some changes to lower the price. I was happy, because what I was losing wasn't anything I cared about.

Then months went by before the final set of construction drawings were finished. When they were finally done, I still had to wait three weeks before they were delivered. The GC got them right before leaving for a week's vacation.

So after much delay, the final bid on the reduced project came back--and it was higher than the original bid.

In addition, out of the woodwork emerged lots of extra charges that had been hiding the first time around. Oh, you want windows in that kitchen? That'll be extra, not sure how much, we'll just have to see. Central vac lines? That's very, very custom (the house already has a central vac--we're talking about a couple of PVC tubes and $1.39 connectors). Plus there were lots of markups on items the GC never touched. The additions not only ate up the surprisingly meager savings from changing the plan, but also created a whole bunch of mystery allowances (blank checks) tacked onto the project. Also, things not on the contract also went up--the vent hood I priced a year ago mysteriously doubled in cost, and I had to change the design dramatically.

Well, obviously I'm not going to move forward with an open-ended mystery commitment that already starts out too high. So we're trying to shave bits here and there. If enough shavings come off enough bits, I'll be OK. If not....

Of course I am STILL waiting on other people to provide prices. No window prices yet. I just got soapstone prices this week, after waiting a year (yes), plus the stone I want may not be available. I'm getting absolute black prices as a backup. We may spike the Marmoleum if it comes in too high; the cabs look great with my wood floors so that's an option. However, I can't get Marmoleum prices until after I sign the contract (don't ask). You would think people would show a tiny bit of responsiveness and alacrity after you pass your actual start date; but no.

I'm also starting to detect some noises that I didn't hear at the start of this project--oh, you want custom. Oh, you want ultra high end. (LOL. Have these people ever seen an ultra high end kitchen?)

Bull. The only two things that will make my kitchen look really unique are the cabinets and color choices. It's a big effect, and yes, the kitchen will look very different from most, but the impact really comes from those two items. And nobody but the cabinetmaker has anything to do with the cabinets--and he is extremely reasonable, takes everything in stride and keeps telling me I am doing a very simple kitchen. I think people see unusual things and think, "You must have more money. Give it to me." And we're now at the stage where it's the last chance to lunge for the remaining coins on the table.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 8:53AM
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Can only offer 1 suggestion on the central vac. Central vac is very DIYable. If you all ready have it in the house running an extra line or a sweeper pan is very very easy. If you can't DIY it maybe you know someone who can for you. Our local vac store who we purchased our system from gave us tons of help with DIY info.

That would be one less thing your GC would have to touch.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 9:10AM
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Hey, Marcolo. I reallize this is late in the game for you, but I wonder if you are open to getting another bid on the project, especially if you have all of the drawings done. We just finished our project, and our GC was outstanding. Plus, business is still very slow for him and he basically gets all of his business through referrals. He priced our job with a razor thin margin (MUCH lower than the other bids) because he really wanted the work. We were comfortable with him because of work he did for our neighbor, who is easily the toughest person to please that I know and is also knowledgeable about good construction. There were no surprises from him, and everything got done on time. And there were lots of things that he did on his own, due to his own perfectionism, that we never would have even noticed or cared about. He wants everything to be perfect and he wants to be sure the customer is happy in the end. So let me know if you'd like his information and I'd be happy to share.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 9:43AM
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Marcolo, ay ay ay... so sorry about all the trouble you've been having. You are scaring me to death as we are about to embark on our first major renovation with a GC!! I think your last few sentences sums up what I've always felt about hiring anybody to do any type of work in my house. It takes us months and usually years to find honest and competent people who will charge us for a job based on the actual work to be done and not based on the county we live in or the architectural style of our house. Not to single anyone out but the worst offenders, in our experience, are plumbers, hands down! We are not looking for bargain basement prices or low ball estimates but a fair price. In fact, we wouldn't even mind paying a couple of dollars extra for a competent professional who takes pride in their work. We are not wealthy people by any stretch of the imagination. We are a one income family, living in a modest neighborhood, in a modest house in a wealthy suburb. This greedy, grab all you can get attitude is just horrible. Ugh!

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 9:52AM
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I wouldn't expect your marmoleum to be that expensive. I'm having it installed in our basement for roughly $6/sq foot (including tax) - and that's a 3 color combination glue down. Also, it's small/ remote town pricing.

I hope it all works out!

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 9:54AM
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Our marmoleum wasn't a budget buster either...I doubt that you'll find it's too expensive. That said, who in the heck thinks you will commit without giving you a price? Weird and troubling.

Sounds like your contractor is sandbagging. Maybe it's time to shop around. Or GC yourself, which wasn't as hard as I imagined it would be.

Even's always a kick in the pants when you realize what things cost. Tot it all up and it's real money!!

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 10:32AM
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debrak, great idea. In my case, though, the pipes will go through the cabinetry. That's not a big deal because the cabinetmaker is creating simple channels for them, but it does mean that the work has to be done at the same time as everything else. I don't want to DIY something in the middle of the job.

soibean, we're thinking about it. Are you in the Boston area? I like the GC, he's been great about a lot of things and I've used him for smaller projects. I think he got burned by a couple of super rich a-hole clients, and that's affecting my project somehow. But if we can't get the price down any other way, we may need to look elsewhere.

I was discussing with my architect, I may have made a mistake by showing what the kitchen will look like. It would have been interesting to see what would happen if I was vague about the cabinetry, etc. The structure itself is no different than if I were putting in an Ikea kitchen, and it's little to no extra work for the GC to make it unique. I planned and designed it that way.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 10:46AM
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hi, Marcolo. Yes, we're in the Boston area. If you haven't signed yet on the dotted line, it may be worth getting one more quote for comparison. Our GC specializes in kitchens and bathroom renovations, though he also built out the back of our house as part of the project. Like I said, we've been extremely pleased with his work. If there is something you don't like, he will make it right. He always wants the customer to be happy. His painter is also top notch. I'd be happy to pass along his info if you are interested.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 11:07AM
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Oh, I feel for you Marcolo. About 15 years ago we got a quote for renovating our kitchen and it was $60K. No matter what we removed from the specs, the number just didn't go down. It was like the guy decided what he was charging... period. There wasn't much of a cabinet allowance or new appliances or anything else. It wasn't at all clear WHAT the $60K was even for. We could see it becoming much more expensive as we got down to brass tacks about the floor and the appliances and the cabinets and the window.

So, we've done it ourselves as time and money allowed. It's almost done now and the total cost will be about $30K... of course, it is mostly my DH's labor.

I think there is a lot to be said for going slowly. And you are right, cabinets and color, and I would add lighting, are the most important.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 11:51AM
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"I think people see unusual things and think, "You must have more money. Give it to me."

Exactly what I was thinking as your story unfolded. Sad but true, dishonest, imo, but many seem to operate like that. What the market will bear. And they pull it out of the hat like you can't see what they are doing, lol.

That mindset would make me move on to someone else.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 12:08PM
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I've been following your saga. You already have a good cabinetmaker who is reasonably priced. Ask him for names of GCs he has worked with and liked and who aren't top end names. That is if you still want to go the GC route.

Or, be your own GC. It is not hard, and you've already done all of the legwork on knowing what you want to do. 20 years ago we put an addition on our kitchen (the one that is now getting some new counters and other refreshes), and all we could afford to pay the contractor for was the shell. We had that done and then subbed all of the rest out ourselves (plus we did some things ourselves, but I know you don't want to do that).

You've already done all of the hard work making decisions; now just work from there. Your cabinetmaker will take care of that super important piece for you. Your cabinet maker can help you out with the trim work. Get the name of a good plumber. You know what you want for counters, so work directly with the fabricator. You know you want marmoleum, so work directly with the flooring store. Work with a HVAC person for the hood, and appliance installers for the appliances. Get someone to do the demo and frame it in. You can save yourself a bundle and end up with exactly what you want. Plus, having read a lot of your posts, I get the impression that you are the type of person who will want to be super involved, even if using a GC, to make sure everything is exactly as you want it. Why not just put yourself in charge?

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 12:28PM
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How annoying and frustrating! And the work hasn't even started. Can't wait to see what else they'd have in store.

Funny, but if I were a vendor bidding on a job for someone like Marcolo, who so clearly knows a lot about a lot, I'd be careful not to try to snow him. The mere fact that the plans seem unusual and so carefully conceived would make me think the customer was giving a lot of thought and attention to the project, and I'd bid accordingly. Unless I didn't really want the job.

Don't you wish you could be sure it was all just fair? I mean, no one should begrudge a businessman a fair profit for his skills and labor. You just don't want to get taken.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 12:44PM
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So sorry you're having problems already. You're smart in trying to get it worked out before you start.

If you recall our GC (after months of planning) finally gave us the real bid and it was WAY over what he estimated.

After getting 3 more quotes (and he wanted the job) he came down to where the others were. We are lucky this was pre-Sandy because right now the GCs are so busy we would have probably paid more! In the end our GC was 100% amazing and honest and I hope you find yours to be the same!

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 1:32PM
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Marcolo, maybe you should considering getting multiple bids as some others have already posted. We are 99% sure we are using a certain GC but I already told him that we are getting other bids too. He said it's no problem and if another GC comes in lower, he would match the price. I do like and trust this particular GC, but I would like to see where he is pricewise in relation to other GC's. It must be so frustrating for you to have found someone you've used and trusted in the past and now feel like he's trying to fleece you. I would ask the cabinet maker for GC suggestions as well as your architect.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 1:40PM
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Marcolo - I think it is very wise of you to stop and take stock. I wish I had listened to my gut on this. Working with our GC has not really made it easier. I am still the one who pays attention to details and tracks the dependencies. I would suggest giving a serious consideration to being your own GC. Talk to people like Breezy who have done it. You will be the one writing the checks and the subs will be more responsive to you. You are not going to save time by hiring a GC. You will just spend it on following up with him and nagging him to follow up with the subs.

One more note. Appliances prices are going up as more people are buying. Lower inventory means less incentive to have sales. I heard this from our appliance store. If you like something, buy it and store it.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 1:58PM
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I don't think it's a given that you won't save time having a GC. We saved a significant amount of time. And aggravation. With the right GC, there can be very little- or no nagging involved.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 2:08PM
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Thanks for the thoughts, all.

I'd be terrified to GC an actual addition (Foundations and drainage and beams ! O my!). But I have been thinking about getting the shell built by a GC and doing the installation myself. I already know some good subs (except for HVAC, Boston HVAC contractors are beyond wretched) and the cab guy is doing a lot of the heavy lifting anyway.

However, I think donaleen is right--this contractor has decided what he's charging, period. I pull things out of the plan, and things go down only $800 or whatnot. If I bid out the shell alone, I doubt he'd shave that much off--I'd have to start over with someone else.

I don't know that he's openly trying to fleece me; I don't think he would intentionally do that. I think he got screwed by other people; he's trying to protect his butt against the same thing happening again; and he has limited wiggle room with his subs. But I do think he's fooling himself: pointing to one number that isn't all that scary on the bid and saying, "See? I'm reasonable," while avoiding eye contact with the fact that his bid didn't even include windows.

One place I'm trying to save money is cabinet painting. My cab guy charges very little to paint cabs, in the scheme of things. But he uses that catalyzed varnish that to me produces a plasticky finish. It's fine in a regular kitchen but in a vintage setting just looks weird. To save money, I planned to have the cab guy paint the insides (of the glass cabs) and one coat on the outside. Then a painter would either back brush the sprayed-on second coat, or paint one second coat (plus maybe an acrylic topic). However, the GC thinks this will cost as much as just having the cabs painted entirely by hand. I'm trying to figure out an alternative but no luck so far. Maybe I should do a separate post on it. (No, I can't paint them myself--my close vision got really crappy in the past year.)

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 2:22PM
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Circus Peanut

I envy those of you with reasonable Marmoleum quotes. There are only 2 installers around here, and they both gave me quotes that were upwards of $24/sf for the sheet type.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 4:21PM
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The cost of our marmoleum (forget the crappy install) was a lot more than 6$/ft. A LOT more.

What kind of a place won't tell you the price before you agree to pay it? I'm not asking since you said not to but I'd tell them to stick it. That's laughable.

I was surprised that you were having a GC, you seem to have such a good handle on all the facets of your reno.

I'm glad my DH is DIY'ing our project. The little contact I've had with the hired out people has left me underwhelmed to say the least. Well, the wallpaper guy was good and the tree-trimmers but the drywallers, HVAC and flooring installers still make us roll our eyes when we think about it.
The idea about asking your cab guy for a recommendation is a good one. So is getting the info on the person that Soibean knows.

Hang in there. This too shall pass.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 4:52PM
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So after much delay, the final bid on the reduced project came back--and it was higher than the original bid.......Well, obviously I'm not going to move forward with an open-ended mystery commitment that already starts out too high.

This. This is exactly why I decided to GC our whole house reno with master bath addition myself. How can one forget to bid windows? Mine did, and I had several of them for the house. I had the GC pour the foundation and do the rough framing inside and out as his prices on that were reasonable on that portion, his work was known to be excellent, and I had him lined up already. Then I took over. I was sick of being looked at like the lady giving away free money. You have much, much more reno experience than I had going in. If I can do it, you surely can with all that chutzpah you've got.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 5:47PM
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Wow, I didn't realize that marmoleum prices vary so much! No wonder people use the click! We were quoted $3-4 per square foot before installation and taxes for the Forbo brand, 2mm thickness. Our installers are certified.

We got an exact price, with an itemized breakdown of costs, prior to paying our deposit. That included a computer generated floorplan of our basement so that I could decide exactly where the colors would line up.

    Bookmark   April 10, 2013 at 6:12PM
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I'd be happy just to get a quote. On anything.

Isn't it funny? In the home reno industry, the customer is a non-person. Tolerated, maybe, like a dog or a particularly stupid child. But not taken seriously, like, you know, a real person or anything.

I've asked for numbers on my windows. I went to a new fabricator's to get a bid on absolute black, rather than soapstone. I've asked whether yoo-hoo has spoken to ya-haa yet. I've asked several involved parties for ideas. I've left voice messages. I've sent emails.

I am supposed to be starting this project as of--two weeks ago?--and everyone is too busy to get back to me. To reply at all. To send an email that says, "Checking."

They're the important people, you see. The fact that I'm going to spend more on a reno than I would on a small house where I grew up doesn't make me important. It just makes me an ATM, and who cares what an ATM thinks? The ATM will always be there whenever you want to punch money out of it, and if not, there's always another ATM around the corner.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 8:25PM
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...and this is why you should probably take over. Breezy's plan is sounding better and better.

Just checked, and our marmo was $9/sqft installed. Forbo certified installer, natch.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 8:48PM
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In this economy, you should have no trouble getting service, even in the Boston area, unless the things you want can be had from only a single source.

We started out with the fabricator our GC recommended. They didn't give us the time of day. They treated us like a nuisance and they never bothered to get us quotes on anything. Guess what? We dumped them. I found three different fabricators who were more than happy to work with us, got back to us promptly, and competed for our business. If someone is ignoring you, move on and find someone who will help. Unless, like I said, there is one and only one place to get what you need. You have nothing to lose by shopping around.

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 9:15PM
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Don't understand the lack of quotes? Doesn't anyone want to make money anymore?

Just read a story about the effect all the texting and computer interaction is having on peoples behavior IRL and it wasn't a good effect. Said there is a diminishment in social skills. Gee, really? Plus, I'm not sure a majority of people have any manners anymore. Like getting back to someone to let them know that you're looking into something and not just ignoring them or maybe have forgotten entirely?

I find this mostly in the young 30's and under. No offense to any in that group here who have some decent manners and social skills.

This may be the result of the 'self-esteem' teaching that galled me when my eldest was in school. We have no shortage of self-esteem in this country...

    Bookmark   April 11, 2013 at 10:03PM
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With your attention to detail and the amount of pre work and research you have put in, the GC knows that he cannot get by or miss anything. There is a probably a PITA premium attributed to your project and keeping you updated. Your subs will return your calls if you write them the check and YOU are the boss. Your inner control freak will feel more in control as well :)

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 2:42AM
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You reminded me of my experience when I moved to Boston twenty-five years ago. I would wander Filenes trying to find a clerk and I always wanted to shout, "Will somebody take my money?!?!" I'm sure you'll get it worked out and it will all be worth it. Good luck!!

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 10:32AM
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Marcolo - a bit late to chime in - but as others have said - take your time and hold up until you are ready. When the time is right, go for it!

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 11:44AM
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Well, I just got a new countertop estimate.

Who knew absolute black was 30% higher than soapstone?


    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 12:39PM
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That's very surprising! Are you leaning towards the soapstone or are you concerned about the durability ( rings, chips, etc)? I am considering both of those stones for my perimeter counters as well as a honed quartzite and Virginia Mist. I've only seen VM online, though. Would you consider VM?

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 1:07PM
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The soapstones I want may or may not be available when I need them. I need a backup and wanted it to be cheaper. In my case I don't want veining, so the VM wouldn't work for me.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 1:38PM
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I too was surprised at the cost of AB when we were looking at the black granites.

I would just work toward soapstone, but if you need a back up, what about black pearl?

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 1:53PM
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Stick with your soapstone idea; it is what you want. Ask the stone yards you've been working with when they anticipate getting new shipments. Realistically you aren't going to be ready for soapstone for at least four months (assuming you'd start next week). By the time you need it, there will be some new stuff in town.

Do you have a subscription to Angie's list? If not, get one. Even if it saves you only one headache, it is worth it. The fabricator I am using gets A+ on there for value and responsiveness, and I couldn't be happier. To chime in on your previous posts about not even being able to get bids, I have been surprised at the places that have never gotten back to me despite them asking me to give them dimensions and my requirements. Apparently they don't want my business, and even if they returned my calls or e-mail now, I wouldn't work with them.

I obviously don't know you at all, but my perception from all the planning and research you've done on this is that you would be better off being in total control of the project. Now, buy a really good book on being your own contractor for a kitchen remodel so you'll know all of the exact steps needed when, and DIY (the hiring of subs and coordination of steps). I am making this recommendation as a fellow control freak about some things I care deeply about. We are looking into a self-guided bike trip in Italy, and I am very uptight about the places they might pick for us to stay (we had a very bad experience with a travel agent on a small trip last year). It is not that I need deluxe by any means (in fact, I want small and intimate with charm rather than fancy but sterile), but I also know exactly what I consider optimal in lodging that suits ME, and I am pretty leery about handing over that control. I'm guessing you are the same way about your kitchen.

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 5:24PM
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Speaking of quotes and "this economy"...

I totally empathize with marcolo!

Something happened in the last 6-12 months. Last November, I couldn't get ANY quotes locally for cabinets and installation, even from people who had a really good reputation. I had several folks over who spent ~2 hours discussing my tentative (but pretty detailed) design, promised a quote within 2-3 days, and then disappeared "for good". No amount of phone calls, e-mail messages, or even stopping by the store helped. I lost many weeks on that and that is one of the main reasons why my remodel got so delayed.

It seems that people got tired of waiting for the economy to get better and just started remodeling no matter what. All contractors are terribly busy around here.

Finally, I went to a company that I thought was in-affordable and they put my kitchen in. I don't think I overpaid, especially given how fast they turned things around and the quality of the work.

I feel your pain...

This post was edited by eleena on Fri, Apr 12, 13 at 20:15

    Bookmark   April 12, 2013 at 7:28PM
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