To prep sink or not??

nyrgirl35April 13, 2014

Ok so I posted once before about the need of prep sink and I pretty much was set on installing one. Then, someone in one of the kitchen places I went to said "are you sure you want a prep sink in the peninsula if you will also be using it as your kitchen table" So I will be using it as my kitchen table but also as a prep area of course not at the same time. For someone reason I feel hesitant about the prep sink, and once he said that it threw me off. Now my peninsula will not be close to the stove, so I was thinking if I am chopping stuff to cook on stove I will continue to prep by stove and main sink. I'm figuring the peninsula will be used more for baking prep? I have such a run down not cook friendly kitchen now and I'm just trying to make new kitchen as cook friendly as possible. I never once felt the need for a second sink, but I'm wondering is it one of those things that you don't realize until you have?
Thanks!

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sjhockeyfan325

We had a prep sink in pur first professionally-designed remodeled kitchen and never ever used it - because it was poorly located (it would have been fine as a bar sink). We later had a prep sink between the fridge and cooktop and used it all the time, reserving the cleanup area for cleanup.

I don't understand your drawing really, but I would guess based on what I see most of your prep will actually take place on the long run next the cooktop. For that reason, I'd skip the prep sink (but if you feel like you have to have it, why not turn it so it's at the end of the long run and not on the peninsula itself?).

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 11:48AM
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Sophie Wheeler

The entire layout seems to be a poor use of the space. I'd put the brakes on and resolve it's awkwardness as a whole first. Looks like you are trying to force something to fit that really doesn't. The kitchen itself is much too long, without adequately defined zones.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 11:58AM
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windycitylindy

I agree that you should post your whole layout for feedback, preferably drawn to scale on grid paper. I'm also having trouble interpreting your drawing, to the point that I can't even figure out where your main sink is in it!

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:33PM
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nyrgirl35

Sjhockeyfan that's a good idea to put it on end run and not peninsula.

Hollysprings I'm open to any suggestions you might have. Please help! I know it's very long. What happen was the actual kitchen is 15L x 9W we are knocking down the wall because on the other side is just our kitchen table annoying to walk around the wall to get to kitchen table. Where the kitchen table is now is suppose to be the DR, too small for my DR! I made on the other side of the 156" wall my DR.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:33PM
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nyrgirl35

Standing in DR looking at where my kitchen table is now and will knock down that wall separating kitchen from kitchen table.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:36PM
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nyrgirl35

Another pic looking directly into kitchen the wall will come down along with the curved part of wall

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:38PM
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nyrgirl35

Inside kitchen obviously

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:39PM
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nyrgirl35

This is what's along 156" shared DR wall

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:41PM
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nyrgirl35

The supposed area for EIK I would never fit a table there we are a family of 6

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:43PM
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nyrgirl35

Windycitylindy sorry for the horrible drawing. The sink is under the window. I'm not sure how to do an actual layout drawing. I hope the pictures help!

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:49PM
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nyrgirl35

Don't pay attention to detail in these next pictures. But a rough idea of what I thought of using my space

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 12:57PM
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nyrgirl35

Would have warming drawer as one of the drawers by DW

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:00PM
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nyrgirl35

Just as I'm looking at it. I should prob move the micro wall oven to this side with warming drawer?

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:01PM
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nyrgirl35

Back wall 24" pantry on either side of 60" bar area?

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:02PM
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buehl

[Note: I started this reply when there were only two responses. However, most, if not all, questions are still relevant!]

Your plan is incomplete, so it's difficult for us to comment usefully. What I do see is a lot of wasted space (floor and, possibly, counter) and questionable locations for appliances. A few questions to start:

  • Where is your cleanup sink? DW?

  • What is "OW"?

  • Why are you going to use your peninsula as a "kitchen table"? Be aware that routine seating at a counter-height counter for full meals (as opposed to breakfast, a snack, or a quick lunch/dinner) can be uncomfortable and is generally not the best - especially if you have young children or older people in the household.

  • Do you plan on eating most meals in the DR?

  • Do you have a fully measured layout of your space?

While prep sinks aren't always needed, in many kitchens their presence or lack can make or break a kitchen design.

I think you need to stop and back up. Start off asking yourself what you want for this entire space and then begin considering various ideas.

I suggest going through the following FAQs b/f you go any further:

FAQ: New To Kitchens? Read Me First! - Take the "Sweeby Test" that's linked in this FAQ!

FAQ: How do I ask for Layout Help and what information should I include? (Use graph paper to draw the kitchen up. Then, take a digital picture of the layout and post it here (it's best to use Photobucket, Flikr, or similar photo hosting site rather than using GW's "image" posting - see the FAQs for how to post one or more pictures.)

FAQ: Kitchen work zones, what are they?

FAQ: Aisle widths, walkways, seating overhangs, work and landing space, and others

FAQ: How do I plan for storage? Types of Storage? What to Store Where?

Full set of Kitchens FAQs

One last caution: Many "KDs" out there are really just cabinet salespeople. So while it can never hurt to listen, just be aware that for many, their main goal is to sell as many cabinets as possible. They often don't understand what it takes to create a truly functional kitchen. This is not to say they won't have good ideas or that you don't have a KD that is a real KD...I just wanted to warn you! (Ask your KD if s/he is "NKBA certified". It's not a guarantee of a great KD, but it at least means s/he has had some kitchen design training.)

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:12PM
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buehl

OK - even more posts!

Is your window centered on the wall (most are "almost" centered).

Warming Drawers...They work best if they are next to the range/cooktop. A few years ago there were quite a few posts asking if a WD was worth it & whether people actually used them. The consensus was that if the WD was near the range/cooktop (and in the first or second drawer location), it was used. If it wasn't near the range/cooktop or located just off the floor (at the bottom of an oven stack, for example), it was not used.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:18PM
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buehl

The best location for a MW (and refrigerator) is on the periphery where it's easily accessed by those working in the kitchen as well as those outside the kitchen looking for a snack (or whatever) - without snackers getting in the way of those working in the kitchen.

I prefer the MW on the wall it's on now but the WD on the other side, next to the range.

If this were my kitchen, I'd get rid of the diagonal corner cabinets and get ones with a 90-degree cutout. It would increases counter frontage and doesn't make it look or feel so "tight". It would lessen the crowding of the range (can that range be moved?). It would also allow more than one person to be at the sink at the same time (if needed).

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:23PM
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buehl

In this particular layout, a prep sink would be very useful. If you're worried about the sink in the peninsula, you could add a set of shallow cabinets behind the peninsula to add to the distance b/w the sink and someone sitting there. You could also move the sink to the wall - although I would not, if it were me.

Keep in mind that a prep sink is not the same as a cleanup sink. You most likely will not have dirty dishes stacked up in the prep sink and you will probably not be using it during meals (if you plan to use it for all meals). As long as you have 18" or so b/w the back of the sink and the counter edge, you should be fine. 24" would be even better!

Since you're planning on using the peninsula as a "kitchen table", be sure you have an adequate seating overhang - at least 15" of clear knee/leg space - 18" would probably be better in this case.

I could draw you up something - if you're open to some changes....

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:30PM
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nyrgirl35

Hi buehl I'm going to read ove everything you sent me. To quickly answer some of your questions
1. Clean up sink is under window
2. DW right now is to the right of sink but want to put a lazy Susan in so will move DW to where it looks like I wrote OW but it's really DW
3. Most meals will be in DR fast meals and such as u said will be at peninsula
4. My fully laid out space is basically 26' L x 9' W. I have a 10' opening from DR into the kitchen area
5. My window now is 46" and is centered but I am expanding it to 58" and will keep it centered from what cabinet people told will work out prefect for cabinets that will go there.
6. Yes I can move the range. Where you think a little more down to the left ?

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:31PM
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nyrgirl35

Do you mean get rid of the lazy Susan cabinets by sink. And make them regular cabinets at 90- degree ? By the corner in peninsula that is a 90-degree correct ?

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:37PM
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buehl

Super or Lazy Susan with a "pie cut". It's still a corner susan (which I, personally, think is the best use of a corner space).

If you have a prep sink - then keep the diagonal by the peninsula. Otherwise, make it 90 degrees as well.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:51PM
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nyrgirl35

Absolutely buehl, I feel like I'm drowning over here I don't have a KD I refer to the cabinet people as my KD because they are basically making up my drawings. This kitchen is going to cost a lot of money and I'm trying not to have any regrets. Just to give you some info about me if it helps with kitchen design. We are a family of 6, kids are 20,10,6 & 3. I do also entertain a lot. On Sundays every week I usually have about 11 people for dinner. I love to both cook and bake and would like a kitchen designed around a cooks kitchen. I am the only cook in the house as of now lol. I always wanted a island or peninsula especially for prep work like rolling out dough and such. I know, do to the 9' W size an island won't work. But I'm fine with the peninsula.
I will attach a pic of the back wall with pantry and bar area that I was thinking of. I would have pantry on either side of bar?
Thanks so much and you can change whatever you see fit!

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 1:55PM
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buehl

That is a nice back wall! I would flank the center with pantries as well. While I'm not a fanatic about "symmetry", I do think in some cases it's important - and, to me, this is one of those cases.

As to a peninsula - I have two! My kitchen is also too narrow (10'6") for an island and decent aisles, so I understand!

It sounds like your peninsula is only going to be used for quick meals/snacks - so I think it's fine...and I would not worry about the prep sink - it will also be fine. It's how our seating peninsula is used and the corner prep sink has never been an issue - and our peninsula is shorter than yours (we only have room for 2 seats).

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 2:05PM
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nyrgirl35

Ok thanks you are making me feel better!! I'm hoping to get 4 seats at peninsula, I was thinking if peninsula comes out to middle of my 10' opening I can maybe squeeze in a 4th seat. The wall I'm taking down meas 80". So I think I could do an 80" peninsula? I so look forward to seeing what you draw up thanks again!

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 2:18PM
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buehl

Warning - As I'm working on a layout, I usually have interim comments/questions!

Window - I think you may have to change it a bit. Right now, you will have the following:

25" wall space + 58" window + 25" wall space = 108"

Corner upper cabinets are usually 24"x24". If you put a decorative door on the sides of the cabinets, then that means another 1" on each side, so: 25"x25". (You can get integrated decorative door sides, but I don't know if all cabinet companies offer them and I don't know if they add to the width of the cabinet b/c of a possible need for a thicker wall....this is one place where a knowledgeable cabinet "KD" would help!)

Both of which mean (1) there's no room for trim (if your windows have trim, mine do not) and/or (2) your cabinets will bump up against the window with no "breathing space".

To fix this, here are two options:

  1. Eliminate all upper cabinets on the window wall and the upper cabinets on either side would die into the window wall. Then, I would make your window 12" bigger - 70". This would give you 19" of wall space + 70" window + 19" of wall space.

    The 19" of wall space would give you room for a 15" deep cabinet + 1" door + 3" of breathing space (and cabinet crown molding) on each side of the window. The 15" deep cabinets are the cabinets along the side walls that die into the window wall.

    The side cabinets could also be 13" deep, then you could have a 74" window. I would definitely have cabs at least 13" deep to accommodate 12" dinner plates - especially if you will have inset cabs (like your inspiration pic for the back wall. I really like my 15" deep upper cabs, though! You'd be surprised how much storage 3" more adds.)

    I think this option will give you a more open kitchen.

    [This would be my preferred option, but YMMV.]

- or - Make the window a bit smaller so you have room to accommodate trim and/or "breathing space" around the window.

  1. If you have window trim, then I would probably have 30" of wall space on each side of the window. Then, you would have 24" of cabinet + 6" of trim & breathing space + 48" window + 6" of trim & breathing space + 24" cabinet.

  2. If you have no trim, then 27" of wall space on each side of the window: 24" of cabinet + 3" of breathing space + 51" window + 3" of breathing space + 24" cabinet.

Thoughts/comments?

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 3:40PM
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nyrgirl35

Ok the reason I was making the window bigger was because the window directly below it from the outside of the house is 58". So when u look at the front of my house from outside the windows look ridiculous. My kitchen window looks so tiny lol . So I'm thinking taking into account the look of front of house my best bet would be go with the 51" window? And maybe from front of house those couple of inches u won't notice?
I can't picture the option u like best, but I'm thinking that might be too big because of the lower window being 58" do you think that would look odd from front of house?

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 4:51PM
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nyrgirl35

Not sure if you need this info but the 24" microwave/speed oven or I can get the trim kit for 30". It's says cut out W 22", cutout depth 21 5/8" cutout height 17 3/4"
I was originally thinking of getting the trim kit because the WD will be 30" and I thought that I was putting them under one another. Now since we are moving WD to the wall with stove I don't have too. The other question I had was if this speed oven ever needs to be replaced I would like that opening to be able to accommodate another MW is 24" standard or should I go with 30" to have more options if need be down the road.

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 8:13PM
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nyrgirl35

Ok I went searching for pictures of exterior houses with different size windows in front. I had replaced all my windows 2 yrs ago except kitchen not knowing what we were going to do with it. So I'm thinking maybe the reason I hate it so much now is that they are 2 different windows totally. Lower window is a nice 58" x 46" 3 casement window with trim and the kitchen is a 46" x 35" slider with no trim the previous owners actually had the siding right up the to window lol.
So maybe the 70" will work if you think it's best. I'm still unsure of how you are explaining the cabinets though, but as far depth I would say 15"

    Bookmark   April 13, 2014 at 9:15PM
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buehl

OK - here is one possibility. (That's all I had time for today!)

Note that I echoed the 3" "legs" from the bar area on the sink wall - that's to tie the two parts of the kitchen together.

I also put in a standard depth refrigerator - recessed into the DR wall. With 6 people in your family, I don't think a counter-depth refrigerator will be big enough for you. If you cannot recess into the wall, then you may have to consider a CD refrigerator and a second refrigerator in a Mudroom or basement.

The refrigerator has a "built-in" look - surrounded by 3/4" finished end panels and a 24" deep cabinet above the refrigerator (for tray storage or seasonal storage).

The upper cabs are 13" deep.

Since the peninsula is going to be used a lot, I recommend an 18" overhang on the long side. This also puts plenty of room b/w the sink and the edge of the seating overhang to minimize splashing. The fourth seat is on the end and has a 15" overhang. I tried to make the peninsula 8' long to accommodate 4 seats along the back of it, but it just would not fit even when in the middle of the 10' doorway to the DR. [Each seat needs 24" of linear space and a minimum 15" clear overhang.]

As to baking space, you have two large areas - b/w the prep sink and range and the peninsula. Both offer plenty of space to roll out dough.

With zones:

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 1:50AM
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nyrgirl35

This looks great!! I love it! A couple of questions:
1. Is there a reason you went with 13" D instead of 15", I just meas. my cabinets now and they are 12"D so it seems I will be perfectly fine with 13" just curious.

2. How long is the peninsula Length from end to end ?

3. For some reason I see the WD on the other side of stove. I guess I see it as take out and place food on peninsula? Just a thought but that side is fine too.

4. 70" window bay or casement?

5. I have an extra fridge downstairs. The wall that fridge can be recessed into is only 4 1/2" deep. Not sure how that works. I was also thinking of a 2 drawer refrigerator under peninsula? I do worry about taking away cabinet space but I was told that this layout has a lot of cabinets. Considering what I have now I'm thinking I'll have double anyway.

6. I also saw a single door with freezer on bottom fridge. 34.8" D but it did seem like it had more space then FD maybe bc it's one single door as opposed to the 2 doors that are split? Again just a thought. I do worry about the single door a little bc it's 32.75" wide then I will always need that size down the road.

7. I do love the look of the 3" legs you ok with as far as storage space it will be 18" pantries rather then 24". I over think things. Sorry!

8. You think I could use one of the pantries for storing my broom and step stool and such?I have no closets on this floor

9. What is the height you suggest for cabinets. My ceiling slopes from 11' on 156" wall down to 8'

  1. I attached pic of skylight, which will fall prob right over peninsula. Lighting suggestions? If I meas. correctly where the tape measure on the floor is, is where the 44" peninsula will be by skylight ( I measured from back wall 24" deep for pantry and then another 53" from there?)

  2. With the MW/speed oven needing a deeper cabinet that looks ok between 13" d cabinets? Trying to picture it.

Thank you soooo much for your help you have no idea how much this helps me.

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 9:43AM
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nyrgirl35

Oh 2 more question. You think I'm better off going with 30" space for MW/speed oven? It's a 24" MW but I can get the trim kit to make it fit in 30" space.

And the window 70" W x ? H

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 10:41AM
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annkh_nd

I have a french door fridge, but really wanted a single door, bottom freezer. I went with FD because I couldn't find a single door with the capacity I wanted. Like you, the landing space for the fridge is on one side, and with the FD fridge, we have to reach around a door when we use that side. We've gotten used to it, but it wasn't my first choice.

I have a U kitchen with a vaulted ceiling, like yours. The crown goes to the top of the 8' wall. I thought it would look weird, but it doesn't. Though when it was finished, DH asked why we didn't put lights above the cabinets (um, because neither of us thought of it?)

Here's what it looked like with uppers a foot shorter. I ordered extra shelves for my uppers, to increase my storage space even more.

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 10:58AM
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kirkhall

(AnnKH--I have a question about your DW/sink proximity, and want to PM you. Can you PM me? Your page doesn't show an email).

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 4:03PM
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annkh_nd

Hi kirkhall - I emailed you.

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 4:38PM
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chisue

Our prep sink is opposite the refrigerator. Although the powder room in the back hall is only steps away, my family routinely uses the prep sink to wash their hands...while I'm making dinner. This impedes my access to the fridge! I'm not a fancy cook, so using the big-little main sink is 'prep-y' enough for me. What was I *thinking*?

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 5:58PM
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buehl

Your questions:

  1. Is there a reason you went with 13" D instead of 15", I just meas. my cabinets now and they are 12"D so it seems I will be perfectly fine with 13" just curious.

    Originally, I was going to increase the depth of your perimeter counters by 3", but that would make your aisle a bit narrow b/w the two walls. With standard depth base cabinets & counters, 15" deep cabinets can be in the way for many people b/c they stick out so far (they're actually 16" when you include the door - unless you're getting inset, then the door does not add any depth.)

How long is the peninsula Length from end to end ?

90" For some reason I see the WD on the other side of stove. I guess I see it as take out and place food on peninsula? Just a thought but that side is fine too.

I was trying to keep it out of the Prep Zone. With it on the right, someone can be loading/unloading the Warming Drawer while someone else is doing final prep for a meal. 70" window bay or casement?

Well...it's up to you. If you can do a bay window, then I think you should. Or, you could do a "bow" window (curved rather than angled). A bay or bow would give you more room behind the sink and reduce window splashing. Whichever you go with, though, I recommend it go all the way down to the counter (approx 36" off the finished floor).

Something to consider...if you're short or have short arms, be careful how deep you make it. Our bay window well is 18" deep and while I am relatively tall and have long arms, I cannot easily reach the back window. We have casement windows on each side of the bay and I can reach them easily (both the crank and the window lock). I have an extra fridge downstairs. The wall that fridge can be recessed into is only 4 1/2" deep. Not sure how that works. I was also thinking of a 2 drawer refrigerator under peninsula? I do worry about taking away cabinet space but I was told that this layout has a lot of cabinets. Considering what I have now I'm thinking I'll have double anyway.

4.5" wall is standard. You should be able to gain about 3" by recessing the refrigerator into that wall. That would be just about right if you get a standard-depth that's around 34" or 35" deep (including the 1" or so usually needed behind the refrigerator for air flow, plug, and water line.)

I'm not sure a couple of refrigerator drawers are worth the loss of cabinet space in a prime location. You should be able to fit a standard-depth refrigerator, you have an extra refrigerator downstairs, and you will have a beverage cooler in the bar area. Do you think you'll need even more refrigerator space? I also saw a single door with freezer on bottom fridge. 34.8" D but it did seem like it had more space then FD maybe bc it's one single door as opposed to the 2 doors that are split? Again just a thought. I do worry about the single door a little bc it's 32.75" wide then I will always need that size down the road.

Stick with a 36"...

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 10:30PM
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nyrgirl35

Buehl- thanks again!

You think I'm better off going with 30" space for MW/speed oven? It's a 24" MW but I can get the trim kit to make it fit in 30" space. Going with the 24" will save me money on the trim kit lol, and it won't take up as much room. But I try to think ahead and when it's time to replace it am I safer with a 30" space as opposed to 24" ?

Last questions 70" window scares me a little I'm not really a risk taker lol, I did get a vision of being on a train with the straight run of cabinets on both sides into the walls of a narrow kitchen with the huge window in middle? Am I just being crazy? Part me of me absolutely loves the big window opening up a narrow kitchen, but yet I'm scared.

    Bookmark   April 14, 2014 at 11:35PM
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buehl

MW/Speed Oven...I left it at 30" in case you needed bigger in the future. However, as I think about it, I'm not sure you need to plan for 30" above the counter. Most standalone MWs are only around 21" wide. Is your MW/Speed Oven standalone? Could it just sit in the alcove?

If it will fit nicely in a 24" cabinet, then you can probably safely go with a narrower cabinet. You might look around online (try AJ Madison) to see sizes of other MW/Speed Ovens to see if they all fit in the same size cabinet.

For the window....I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's an issue. I suggest you start a thread asking for pictures and personal experience with your situation.

We have a 6'10" wide window area (82"), but it's along a side wall, not at the end - so I don't have personal experience.

Good luck!

    Bookmark   April 15, 2014 at 1:05AM
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nyrgirl35

It's a built in MW and it's a Bertazzoni other ones I've seen in that size are Mieles. But it is a built in! But the cut out dimensions are under 24" so I believe it would fit in a 24" cabinet.

I will start another thread with the layout and see if anyone has something similar w/ pics.

Thanks for all your time you spent with me :)

This post was edited by nyrgirl35 on Tue, Apr 15, 14 at 6:53

    Bookmark   April 15, 2014 at 6:50AM
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