New Kitchen Reno Layout, Please Step Inside.

renosarefunMarch 12, 2014

We've done our own layout and have gone over it many times and although it's not perfect I don't know if we can change anything. One thingswe don't like are:

The fact that the dishwasher is right beside the stove and there is no other place to relocate it without losing good access.

I'm going to be making out my cut sheet and start building the cabinets this weekend. The cabinets will be 3/4" Maple veneer including the backs and the doors will also be Maple raised panel with a dark cherry stain.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on the design.

This post was edited by Renosarefun on Wed, Mar 12, 14 at 20:22

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I don't know how to add more than one picture per post so here goes.

    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 8:18PM
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More pictures

    Bookmark   March 12, 2014 at 8:19PM
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I haven't received any replies so I'll order the sheets of Maple and start my cut sheet as I can't think of any improvements in the layout.


    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 12:51PM
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I'd skip the lazy susan in one corner in favor of a blind corner with a Lemans II pullout. Then the DW can go next to the sink with a smaller sink. A 25" single sink is plenty big enough to have room for even a large oven rack to get washed in it.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 12:56PM
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Thanks for the reply live_wire_oak;

Our first choice was the Lemans Pullout but after reviewing the approximate $600.00 cost and getting maybe 85% easy usage of the cabinet we decided against it. The other option we picked was the bi-fold doors in both corners with no lazy susan as pictured below. It would give us full access albeit not clear access. Both corners would then match, if that matters.

Does anyone see a problem with the dishwasher being so close to the range?

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 1:21PM
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I have a U-shaped kitchen about the same width as yours.

don't like diagonal upper cabinets - I pulled two out of my old kitchen, and good riddance! I put in Easy-reach uppers, which are vast improvement. And what look like 12" cabinets on each side of the window - my experience was that these are a poor use of space. Since you're building your own, you can make one leg of an easy-reach longer, and have much more usable space.

I love my lower super susan, but I don't think I could have used two. And they create two small cabinets on each side of the sink. The guy who built my house "solved" this problem by putting in a 48" sink base, which wan't too useful. I put in a 30" sink base, and got a 9" cabinet next to the sink, for cookie sheets and cutting boards.

On the other side of the sink, I closed off the corner completely, and put drawers on both sides. I didn't need corner space for little-used items, but I use those drawers every single day - one of my favorite things about my remodel.

Your alternative to the DW placement is next on the sink wall, which not only shifts your sink way to one side, it makes it impossible to reach any of the upper cabinets around it. Mine was where you show yours - next to a LS, so 12" from the sink run. It was a tight squeeze, but I could stand between DW and sink to load and unload. In my remodel I moved it over to the left, but you don't really have room for that - unless you square off your angled base cabinet, and move the range over a bit.. Mine is on the fridge side, so I don't have experience with proximity to range.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 2:15PM
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Kelly Ryan

I'm about 70% through a remodel and have my DW next to stove. Like you, I didn't have many options where else to put it. I'm not using the kitchen yet so can't comment on functionality yet, but for aesthetics, we opted for a paneled DW, that we won't have "the look" of two appliances right next to each other. For me, I realized that was a big part of my worry. Just something to think about if you also had same concerns

Agree with a previous poster that the diagonal upper is really tough. We had that in the old kitchen. It was like a big abyss. Too big, yet poorly functioning. We just had a mess of stuff in there and could never figure out a good system for organization. I'm very happy to have gotten rid of that!

Good luck with your remodel!

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 2:31PM
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It sounds as if you are building your own cabinets. I urge you to consider susans in all corner cabs, both upper and lower. Here is a link to a thread I started about retrofitting susans into my upper cabinets.

They are absolutely wonderful. I had to buy the trays, but you should be able to build them for very little and the turntables cost only $10 or so. You DO need the edge, only an inch or so is plenty, to keep things from slipping off.

If you need any persuading, let me know and I can also link you to some base cabinet susan threads. You can't really retrofit susans into a base cabinet, so install them when you build. If you make your own susans, make them as wide as possible. Commercial ones often waste inches of space.

By the way, be sure to install brackets so you can adjust shelves in all cabinets and make one or two extra shelves for both upper and lower cabs. The bracket support strips and brackets cost very little and the extra shelves allow you to adjust shelf height for maximal storage and minimal vertical waste.

Here is a link that might be useful: Retrofitting super susans in upper cabs.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 2:42PM
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Thanks again for the replies and below are my replies.


In our existing kitchen it has the blind standard upper cabinets and my wife absolutely hates them for both the looks and the wasted space. She really likes the angled glass corner upper cabinets and will most likely put glass ware inside knowing that it will be a hard reach, but that's what I'm here for.

If we were to change the lower corner cabs to shelves or your other solution we would again have to deal with a lazy-susan or what live wire oak suggested and we found it was either too pricey for the Hafele and she really dislikes lazy susans.

We can't put the dishwasher beside the sink since were short approximately 2" as that was my first choice so it's not an option. As for shifting the sink, it's presently 1" to the right and we notice it since the window is center of the room and the sink is not, therefore we want to center it so that it would look better.

kitchen-reno none

I suggested the panel for the dw and my wife wants the stainless to match the other appliances. I guess I can always make up a panel and put it aside, although I'll need to know once I rough in the plumbing.

Bellsmom 6a

As mentioned my wife finds susans a waste of space. I bought one years ago and my wife gave it away since she really disliked it. I doubt she would go out and repurchase another one.

I'm going to add may holes for adjustable shelved but I'm not starting at the bottom or going to the top as many don't utilize that space.

Thanks again but it would appear the design remains the same.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 3:02PM
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My existing kitchen is very similar and I have my DW to the right of the sink and wouldn't want it anywhere between the stove and sink as it makes it a single person kitchen. At least where it is now one can load/unload the dishwasher while the other person preps/cooks.

Is it possible to make the corner accessible from the other side of the wall? I know it isn't direct kitchen access, but less used items could go there. Then you could have a whole drawer bank in that spot and move the DW to the right of the sink.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 3:03PM
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The biggest problem I see with the location of the DW is that when you are unloading it, there will be no nearby cabinets that you can reach to put away the dishes. You will have to unload, stack on the cabinet, shut the DW and put away the dishes.

Could you consider forgoing the pantry? That would let you move the range down and give you room for a drawer stack between the range and the DW and another drawer stack on the other side of the range. It would also let the person unloading the DW reach the cabinets to store them. And adds significant countertop workspace, which is needed.

Sorta like this.

Personally, I would do this in a minute.

And a PS related to the two corners for susans. I really envy you these IF you put maximized susans and adjustable shelves in both and extra shelves in the wall cabs. GREAT storage space!!

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 3:14PM
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Thanks for the reply lyfia, I can't envision your statement "s it possible to make the corner accessible from the other side of the wall?" If you're suggesting the dw go on the right side of the sink against the window wall, there is insufficient room. If you're suggesting it go beside the fridge, I would loose part of the bi-fold corner cabinet since the door would need to be reduced to 8 1/2" on the fridge side and thus it would turn into a blind type corner that would need to be addressed again.


My wife presently puts the plates etc in the upper cabinet just right of the dw.

Are you suggesting the range move further towards the patio door, if so than it would be too close the the sitting area.

I've revised that wall, see below, sorry I don't know how to turn the image around.


The other side of the fridge wall is the dinning room, unfortunately moving the door is not an option as there is a stairwell in the way.

The smaller base cabinets are for slow close pull outs re trays, cutting boards etc which we find will be useful and easy access which is why we put them in that location.

I hope I'm not making excuses.

Keep the suggestions coming.

This post was edited by Renosarefun on Thu, Mar 13, 14 at 15:32

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 3:19PM
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What's on the other side of the fridge wall? Can you possibly move the door to the right, and move the fridge over?

With the corner units you are planning, since you are building them yourself, you can make them bigger, or not symmetrical. I think the space on each side of the sink would be better used as part of the corner cab, rather than separate (very small) cabinets. That also gives you the ability to add a few inches on the DW side - even a few more inches would let you squeeze into that corner to put dishes away.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 3:26PM
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Do you absolutely NEED the corner base storage on both sides?

In my new kitchen, I have a 12'4" back wall with the sink centered under the window and a dishwasher on both sides. This meant I would lose any storage capabilities in both corners but for me this wasn't an issue since I have TONS of other storage.

If you would be willing to lose one corner of storage, you could put the dishwasher right next to the sink.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 4:14PM
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What I meant is could you make the corner on the right accessible from the dining room if you need the storage so you can move the DW to the other side like live_wire_oak suggested. You have the same width of the kitchen I have. Actually a few more inches and I have plenty of space for the DW on the right without the lazy susan cabinet. I only suggested accessing the corner from another area if you really feel you need that corner for storage.

Where is the stairwell?

Can you move the entry to the dining to do something like this? Although then I think the DW would block entry to the dining.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 4:43PM
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Thanks again for the replies;


As mentioned earlier, I'm short approximately 1.5" on both sides of the sink to be able to install a dishwasher so it's not an option. It's not a matter of loosing storage, it's a matter of available space as I would need 24" for the dishwasher and then 3/4" + 3/4" for each side panel.

lyfia 8b

Ok, I get it now, I showed my wife your suggestion and the first impression she got was:

"I wouldn't want guests that are traveling between the dinning room and kitchen to walk into the middle of the kitchen where everyone is preparing the food. As we have it now, it doesn't interfere with the prep work."

She also mentioned:

"I would loose the ability to install the china cabinet in the dinning room"

As well as, "with the fridge relocation further into the eating area, it would make the kitchen seem smaller, especially with the upper cabinets right above them. "

The stairs are right behind where you have relocated the fridge in your revised drawing.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 5:44PM
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What lyfia suggested is what we did. Our kitchen is only 9 1/2' wide (although it's much longer than yours) and we moved the DR door from the top of the U (from the right of the fridge) to the bottom of the U (the left of the fridge). That gets rid of one corner and all its issues and frees up 2' of corner for the DW. Actually you could keep the sink size that you wanted, put the DW right next to it and then whatever cabinets you had planned along the same wall. No corner.

Then move fridge to the other side of that doorway. Following that you could move the pantry to be beside the fridge and have a tallwall and put the MW where the pantry currently is planned.

By doing that, when clearing the DR the DW is right there and other people would be over by the stove putting away foodstuffs in to the fridge.

Just another suggestion.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 5:47PM
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Whoops. I apologize, we were posting at the same time.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 5:52PM
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How large is your sink base?

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 6:24PM
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not trying to make trouble here. But why would your wife lose the ability to put the china cabinet in the room. It would either still be behind the fridge but just moved over, or there is still a 2' deep wall in which the china cabinet would fit into. (unless its deeper than 2')

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 6:29PM
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We put tape on the floor of our kitchen to signify the new layout of the fridge and when you open the door to the fridge it would almost hit the first chair in the kitchen table, in other words, it's too close for comfort.


According to the layout drawing above, it's 35" outside dimensions, 33 1/2" inside dimensions which will end up being a bit too tight.


I don't take it as making trouble, I view it as valuable advice, now to answer your question.

In a previous post I stated ""The stairs are right behind where you have relocated the fridge in your revised drawing.

The china cabinet can only be placed against the adjacent wall where the present fridge is located and it's about 6' wide and can only be placed on that particular wall. I would purchase a new one but there is sentimental value which can't be replaced. Either way, the relocation of the doorway won't work.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 7:00PM
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I guess the only reason I can't see how your math is working out is because my sink base, I just measured and it is 45" from outside to outside, there is a 24 inch dishwasher on both sides and then a 3 inch filler next to the other base. I will see if I can post a pic for you to see.

    Bookmark   March 13, 2014 at 7:07PM
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Well that was my second suggestion you responded to, but I see with the china cabinet there my first suggestion wouldn't work either unless you built it so you could access it through the china cabinet.

I see nothing different about what you currently have with your new plan (besides getting new cabinets) so seems like you know how it will function as it is. Is there anything you dislike about your current layout?

Have you considered what you will be having in the cabinets? Ie do you really need the "Susan" cabinet on the right or would putting the dishwasher to the right of the sink and replacing the narrow drawer stack there with a wider one and just leave the corner empty be better?

    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 8:14AM
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Thanks again for the replies as the material will be delivered on the weekend and I should start the build come Monday.


If my math is incorrect please let me know as I know I'm not perfect. I look forward to your picture/image.

lyfia 8b

I would really like the location you've selected for the dw but unfortunately as you can see in the earlier detail drawing I have 22" available space in that location and I would need 25 1/2" when I account for side panels. Even if I removed the side panels I would still need 24" which means I'm 2' short and I can't reduce the size of the sink cab as I'm already 1" too small.

You're correct the layout is basically the same as we couldn't really envision many changes that would work better.

The negatives to our existing layout were:

Not enough cabinet space so we added on more on the left end and went from 30" uppers to 36". We also made better use of the blind cabinets.

We didn't like the fact that the existing dw hit the adjacent door when you open the dw door.

The existing fridge stuck out so much is was a major eye sore.

We didn't like the quality and it looked dated so we've made the appropriate improvements to most everything. .

The microwave took up so much counter space that we purchased a smaller one and recessed it into the upper cabinet, but I have to recess the wall also.

Those were the basics and I'll take this opportunity to add one more photo.

    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 8:40AM
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Have you bought your sink already? If not look at measurements and see what you can do about reducing the width of the sink base.

I suggest you read up on single bowl sinks too and what people have to say about them. I think there have been some threads about it on here.

Since you are building the cabinets yourself you should be able to get the extra space out of them that you need. Much easier when going custom than sticking to stock sizes.

    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 9:49AM
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robo (z6a)

Consider a 30" sink base, or even 24". That would give you a couple of extra inches on the window run to fit that dw in. You can get an awfully big single bowl sink into 30" and single bowls are all the rage. This also frees you from the tyranny of having to center your sink under the window. In a small kitchen as you have (and I have!) those aesthetic considerations often have to go by the wayside to get a better functioning kitchen. With a single bowl sink, you can offset the faucet so it's not centered on the window, which gives you more visual allowance to offset the whole sink and therefore to put your dishwasher on the right. Getting the dw out of your prep space isn't mandatory but it will help a whole lot with the functioning of your kitchen, letting the cook have his or her own space separate from cleanup space.

That said, you need a good space in between dishwasher and fridge to make sure the dw door doesn't conk into the fridge!

Consider a counter depth fridge and recessing it into the dining room wall cavity so it intrudes less on your U. Also, build a cabinet around it with panels boxing it in so it intrudes less into the space visually. And make your above the fridge cab come out full depth over the fridge (at least 24" deep).

Forgo the pantry, move the range down, and put a 12" deep, full height pantry wall to the right of the fridge and dr door. A 48" wide, 12" deep pantry has all the same volume as a 24" deep, 24" wide pantry but it is more useful as stuff is much more visible. This would be another place you could consider recessing into the wall to gain a few inches.

Use drawers instead of pull outs wherever possible.
Consider glass front cabs flanking the window instead of in the corners and use easy reach cupboards in the corners.
Use lazy Susans in your bottom corners where possible,
Run your cabs to the ceiling for more closed storage space, even if you need a stool to get to it, unless those soffits are not just decorative,

    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 9:50AM
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Again, thanks for the reply.

Yes the sink has been purchased, I considered a single bowl sink and was veto'd by dear wife stating she wants two bowls (undermount), one 10" deep slightly oversize, second 8" deep undersize with a food waste disposal. She was very specific.

Although I'm building my own cabinets, the sink manufacture specified a 36" cabinet and I'm going 35" outside dimension, that fact that I'm using 3/4" ply makes the inside cabinet size even smaller (33 1/2"). The fact that I'm building my own cabinets won't help allow for the amount of space needed for the dw to be beside the sink as I can't change the total 127" wall dimension, in other words, I can't fit a 24" dishwasher in a 22" space. Yes the dishwasher has been ordered.


I can't consider a 30" sink base, or even 24". since the sink has already been purchase and dear wife doesn't want to go smaller which will take away from what we have now. In other words, she dislikes smaller size sinks and or a single bowl. She needs the divider in the sink, one side takes care of the disposer (discards food after cutting and pealing) and the other side washes the vegetables etc. In other words, two people prep the food.

The fridge has already been ordered and dear wife doesn't like how shallow the counter depth fridges are as well it would have to be very wide to be round 29 sq. ft and that would take away from counter space. She also got really turned off at the fact the counter depth was 35% more in price, so I'm recessing the standard size fridge (4") to give the look of counter depth.

I can't move the stove further into the sitting area as it's already being moved 6" due to going from a 30" to 36" range. As for recessing that wall, it's not only load bearing but it's also an exterior wall so I'm very limited in my options.

Wife wants both drawers and pullouts and I've accomplished that in our design. As mentioned earlier, she also really dislikes lazy susans.

So far it seems the design remains the same and I've still got the same problem with the dw. I don't think there will be an acceptable solution.

Thanks again for trying.

This post was edited by Renosarefun on Fri, Mar 14, 14 at 15:57

    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 11:48AM
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I'm sorry I never posted a pic. I couldn't get it to work from my phone and before I could pull out my laptop my kids got sick. Been up since last night dealing with vomit.

Looking more closely and seeing that your sink base HAS to stay 35", I also don't see a way to move the DW.

I was initially going to suggest not doing side panels on the DW and reducing the sink base by the necessary amount but I see that won't work for you.

    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 6:31PM
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Thanks for the reply Texas_Guy and I hope you're kids are going to be ok.

I've put some much thought into the layout that I thought maybe there is something I'm missing but so far all the suggestions won't work so I may have to stick with the dishwasher right beside the stove which I hope I won't be sorry for.

I guess there is only so much you can do with a U-Shaped layout when you;re limited in the amount of space you have to work with.

I guess unless someone comes up with a better plan my original layout will remain the same.

Thanks again.

    Bookmark   March 14, 2014 at 7:16PM
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Too bad you have your sink already. I went from a standard 33" double drop-in sink to a 60/40 - the large side is bigger than the one of the old bowls, and the small side is almost as big. It fits in a 30" base.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 10:14AM
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thanks for the reply annkh:

I had already checked in to the smaller 60/40 sink which are around 30" wide and they still wouldn't work.

Tell me if my math is correct. In order to fit a 30" wide sink the cabinet interior would have to be at least 30", then add 3/4" plywood gable on each side for a total outside diameter of 31 1/2". Presently I'm going with 35" so that would save me 3 1/.2". If I want to keep the sink center of the window I would need to divide up the difference to allow 1 3/4" space on each side of the cabinet of which at present I have 22" outside dimensions 20 1/2" inside dimensions. If I add the extra 1 3/4" that I would save by going with the 60/40 smaller sink I still won't have enough space.

My other problem is the 30" inside dimension cabinet for a 30" sink is still a bit too small as I would need to rely on epoxy to hold the undermount sink in and would have no room to add clamps which I was going to add in addition to the epoxy only because I'm adding a food waste disposal and the vibration will add too much stress to epoxy only installation.

I do appreciate the suggestion though.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 11:29AM
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When I re-did my kitchen I figured that generally the space under the sink is not efficiently used. Also, the under-cabinet space in the corner is not efficiently used. I had a similar space to deal with to yours with respect to the window and corner.

What I did was move the sink to the right and put in caddy-corner in the corner. This still allowed the view out of the window, and the under-sink space goes in the corner.

immediately to the left of the sink goes the pullout for the trash and either to the left of the garbage or to the right of the sink goes the dishwasher.

(We wanted to keep the sink, washer, and garbage together to facilitate after-meal cleanup.)

I think you've got a great design, just wanted to share a possible different approach.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 11:45AM
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Is your range gas? On one of the renderings , it shows 27" from top of range to hood. In our area, code is MIN. 30",

906.1 Vertical clearance above cooking top, domestic free-standing or built-in ranges shall have a vertical clearance above the cooking top of not less than 30 inches (762 mm)."

Are you sure that 27" is allowed in your area? What is the manufacturer's recommendation?

This post was edited by canuckplayer on Sat, Mar 15, 14 at 18:33

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 6:20PM
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Sophie Wheeler

Too bad that you weren't really willing to think outside the little box you've already got. The kitchen would have been so much better with a single small sink to get the DW to the right. People's dishwashing habits of this century have eliminated the need for a double sink. Using a DW uses less water and is more eco friendly than handwashing.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 8:08PM
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Not offering ideas on changing the layout, but I totally understand the reluctance to go to a single bowl sink. We had one in the kitchen prior to renovation...and (saying this in hushed tones because it's not a popular GW decision) I hated it. I was always struggling with needing to put something in the GD, but also needing to do other things in the sink - I often soak pans, etc. even though I use my DW for most things.

If I could have come up with a good place to put a prep sink, I'm sure that a single bowl would have served me well. But in our kitchen, that wasn't a real, a double bowl worked well.

Our kitchen isn't completely done yet, but in the bit that I've been able to work with it, I haven't regretted at all getting rid of the single bowl and going to a double bowl. My only possible regret is that now there is a Silgranit sink that has the double bowl, but lower divider...would have gone for that in a heartbeat had I known it was going to be available.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2014 at 9:26PM
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I have the sink linked below. The web site says it requires a 33" sink base, but I bought the sink before my cabinet maker started slicing and dicing, in case I needed a hair more room, and he assured me it would fit in a 30" base (and it does). My counter installer didn't have any trouble mounting it with clips from underneath (not just glued in place).

I really wanted a 30" base and a double bowl, and I searched high and low for this sink. It's been 6 months, and I'm very happy with it so far.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ann's sink

    Bookmark   March 16, 2014 at 2:53PM
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