end panels, furniture ends?? help!

cindywhitallMarch 15, 2013

I'm pricing out Maple cabinets and the cabinet store came in higher than I expected for Waypoint, which is basically American Woodmark/Shenandoah that HD/Lowes sell.

Spent a while at Lowes and got some decent prices, too bad a 10% back on gift card expires very soon....

Anyway, for maple cabs they hit me for about $80 each for "furniture ends" whereas the "end panels" (door like panels for the ends of cab) are maybe $110 or so, size dependent I assume. I will do it for the island, but I have 8 other exposed ends also.

I saw the Shenandoah book suggests furniture ends if you are going to add end panels. That's a lot of $ to do.

Question is: Can I install the end panels on the normal cabinet ends? Will they fit behind the little bump from the face panel? Will it look stupid? I'm not paying upcharge for furniture ends and then adding a panel on top for more $.

Cabinet guy wants about $2300 to remove and install (20 cabs or so) which is probably better than Lowes will charge, but I think I've talked hubby into it. We will have to find someone to remove and reinstall our granite...not tackling that ourselves.

I've read (http://www.city-data.com/forum/home-interior-design-decorating/579619-kitchen-cabinet-question.html) there are places that sell Kraftmaid for 50% off list and that HD and Lowes sell at list, minus their little deals from time to time. Anybody know for sure? I am in South Jersey.

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cindywhitall

Actually it is 15 cabs to be removed and installed...for $2300

    Bookmark   March 15, 2013 at 9:23PM
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Sophie Wheeler

You need a flush end if you are going to apply the door panels. That means a skin or factory flush finished. If you are doing a lot of cabinets this way, you might come out ahead to move to a different line where you can get an integrated end panel where the door panel is made into the cabinet side from the factory from the beginning. And I prefer lines where they offer more butt cabinets instead of fighting the stupid stiles in every single double door cabinet.

No one pays list price on any cabinet. The amount off of list varies with retailer and the distance from the factory. Average discount from list is in the 40-60%.

    Bookmark   March 15, 2013 at 9:25PM
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cindywhitall

Holly,
I was afraid of that. I assume the integrated end panel is what they call furniture end that is $80 more.I believe from the quote below that it is a thicker plywood. I don't think there is a less expensive option, which is silly if it is going to get a panel over it anyway. I only really really want it on the island, but I will check other lines before I decide. Maybe they will be more to start, but less to upgrade.

Also, any thoughts on outlets on islands? I haven't seen any photos of them, but my current (non paneled) island has one in each end. It may have been code. It won't be pretty smack in the middle of the cabinet, hopefully I can get outlet covers to match. I've gotten used to having them. Cutting a hole in the middle of the panel will be sad and scary.

"FURNITURE ENDS

These thicker plywood sides reduce face frame reveal for a clean, furniture look on exposed cabinet ends and islands. Also makes molding wraps easier and saves installation time."

    Bookmark   March 15, 2013 at 11:57PM
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cindywhitall

Don't know if this will be a double post or what...BUT even if i is, I forgot to ask...did you mention a skin? Is that a piece that is cabinet colored that can build out the regular cabinet (non upgraded) end so there is a flush surface for the end panels. That would be fine with me.

Holly,
I was afraid of that. I assume the integrated end panel is what they call furniture end that is $80 more.I believe from the quote below from the website that it is a thicker plywood. I don't think there is a less expensive option, which is silly if it is going to get a panel over it anyway. I only really really want it on the island, but I will check other lines before I decide. Maybe they will be more to start, but less to upgrade.

Also, any thoughts on outlets on islands? I haven't seen any photos of them, but my current (non paneled) island has one in each end. It may have been code. It won't be pretty smack in the middle of the cabinet, hopefully I can get outlet covers to match. I've gotten used to having them. Cutting a hole in the middle of the panel will be sad and scary.

"FURNITURE ENDS

These thicker plywood sides reduce face frame reveal for a clean, furniture look on exposed cabinet ends and islands. Also makes molding wraps easier and saves installation time."

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 12:04AM
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Sophie Wheeler

Skins are think veneer pieces that flush out the cabinet box and offer a finished look. They are cheaper than flush factory ends, but more when it comes to the labor estimate as your installer will have to install them. It usually comes out about a wash on the money, and the furniture ends look nicer and perform nicer over time. They are fine as just the finished surface of the cabinet if you don't want to upgrade to applied doors on them. Don't forget to finish the cabinets next to the range hood in the upper run. That's something that a lot of people forget in their designs. BTW, $80 is a very modest price for that upgrade. In that budget range of cabinets, may don't even offer the option and you would need to move to a mid grade line to be able to choose it.

This post was edited by hollysprings on Sat, Mar 16, 13 at 7:59

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 7:58AM
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mermanmike

I did most of my cabinet shopping on my own, and I didn't research this option enough before I ordered my cabinets. I really wish I had; it is one thing that I think would've improved the overall look of my kitchen. If you can find the room in the budget for it, I'd say it is worth it.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 8:44AM
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abfabamy

We wanted to save money and still achieve the look of finished ends on our cabs. Our KD gave a us a tip that worked very well for us a day thought I would share it with you. The least expensive way to get a paneled finished look (at least in Kraftmaid) was to apply a skin to flush the end, then put on an end panel, which is really just a door without the hinges. The money saving part was to cut the skin into about 3/4'' strips on the tablesaw and place them along the 3 outside edges of the end. Then put the door panel over that. Once the panel is in place you absolutely cannot tell...at all. This method is more labor intensive, but we did our own install so it saved us quite a bit of money. We were able to do all our ends with one sheet of skin.

If you would like to see a picture, let me know!

HTH

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 9:07AM
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live_wire_oak

"This method is more labor intensive,"

While that might work for a DIYer with a lot of time on their hands, to an installer, time is money. Designers and Installers also hate skins. They sometimes don't lay flat, or match correctly, and are a general PIA. When an install is more of a PIA and takes longer, you guessed it, the labor quote is higher.

If you want the best look, you need to have the factory finish off the sides of the cabinets. In the entire scheme of a 10K cabinet order, it's not a lot of money, and it's a MUCH better look long term. Whether or not you apply a door to that is entirely separate. But applied doors add generally almost as much as buying a cabinet does as they are out of the expensive wood and are the most expensive part of any cabinet. Just buying the doors by themselves usually ends up being 80% of the cost of a whole new cabinet.

This post was edited by live_wire_oak on Sat, Mar 16, 13 at 9:50

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 9:47AM
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cindywhitall

Abafamy, I'm not sure I understand and pictures would be great. I would much prefer not buying big pieces only to cover them.

I DID forget about the part near the stove!

Will I be able to attach end panels to the back of the island onto that thin board, or is it a must to upgrade the back before I add panels?

I forgot to ask, how are the panels attached? Glue. Nails or maybe screwed from the inside?

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 9:51AM
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live_wire_oak

Cindy are you DIYing the install? If not, let your KD and installer handle those details. It's what they do for a living and have done thousands of jobs. You don't want to assume the responsibility of trying to tell them how to do the job, as then if there are any errors, they can point back to you as being the source of the problem.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 10:03AM
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cindywhitall

I am hoping to DIY as it will make hubby more agreeable to the price. He is fairly handy. We did hang some cabinets in our study to make a wall unit and he managed that. I think he can do this since it is same layout. Patience will be the key. I know he'd love to have someone come in and whip it out but over $2k is a lot of cash id rather spend elsewhere, like on the roof. Won't make him do that DIY!

The $80 for furniture ends was for Each end, not the whole cabinet.

If I can save $ with skins I can get more roll outs in my cabs! I have a 42" island and was surprised how much for 4 roll outs so I cut back to 2. I'd love 2 giant drawers, but in the brand I'm looking at they don't seem to have it in 42". That's ok.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 10:23AM
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GreenDesigns

That is not an outrageous price at all. It is also a much better look. If I have a DIY cabinet install, the ONLY way that I order cabinets is with factory finished ends unless the DIYer is highly experienced. There are a lot of ways to get their install wrong, and only one right way. Using a table saw and the right kind of glue and nails isn't that hard, but it IS hard if you've never done it before.

Do you own a table saw with a good guide? About 2-3 good long levels? About a dozen clamps? Own a pin nailer and compressor? A good screw gun? A multi tool? A miter saw?

You'll need all of those.

Do you know how to scribe something to a wall? To do a compound molding stack? How to install a light rail? How to apply scribe mold? How to level the whole run of cabinets? How to shim properly and with the proper materials? Do you know and understand that nothing in your home is straight and level and you will have to compensate for that?

Installing cabinets isn't hard if you have the tools and the patience and really do understand the process. But it is SO much more than "just" screwing boxes to the walls. SO MUCH.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 12:34PM
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Kristen Hallock

Hi. I just ordered KM cabinets from Lowes. I did upgrade to plywood ends on the cabinets that would be exposed on the sides. But I did not cover all exposed ends with fake door panels. That would get very expensive. I also asked the guy about upgrading to plywood ends only to put a panel on top of that. I think the KM "plywood" ends is equivalent to the "furniture ends" that you are talking about. My Lowes KD said that you don't need plywood ends if you we're going to just cover them with a panel door. In any case, I covered the entire Island with doors, if it needed them. But I left the end runs of wall cabinets with just plywood ends..I can always go back and order the fake door panels later on if I decide I really want them.

also, we are doing. DIY install too. DH has installed Kraftmaid cabinets before in our old house. I am pretty sure he used glue to stick the panels to the island. He just clamped them on while it dried.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 1:18PM
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a2gemini

We put the fake door on the end facing the dining room. We can add to any of our end cabinets but felt this was the one that needed the upgrade. The cabinet is the standard cabinet, so it is not built in. The top trim is what makes it work without a lot of fuss.
The picture isn't great but might show you what we did.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 1:50PM
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cindywhitall

khallock,

I don't think plywood ends is the same as furniture ends. You know that little indent behind the face frame where the sides meet the front? That is eliminated with furniture ends because the side wood is thicker. I think plywood ends is just better quality than stock ends, but is still the same thickness, leaving that little indent. Here is a pic of furniture ends, the sides meet smoothly like on furniture. (not the molding part, but the part next to the door.) The pics by a2gemini shows the door panel meeting the faceframe flush, but on the right of her pic you can see a cab where that little lip is, the lip that furniture ends eliminates. I don't know how door/end panel would go on with that little lip....

As far as diy, we don't have a table saw but can borrow one. My brother does a ton of work with habitat for humanity and has built dressers out of wood, so he could help in a pinch. We can handle a level (have several) and a miter saw, but we are replacing stock cabinets with stock cabinets so don't anticipate much cutting. We'll have a granite guy reinstall our granite, so I know he will double check the level of the lowers (as he did during original install.)

Luckily, we are not afraid to eat out (and do too much!) so if we have to stop and hire a contractor mid install, we will.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 2:30PM
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madeyna

There is another option . They sell varous sized trim pieces to go with the cabs they sell. We used the flat trim peice thats the same wood that frames the front of the cabs. It comes in about three inch wide by 8 foot long peices. Cut it to frame your ends. The same peice are used on the front of the cabs and overlap the sides by the exact width the new peices will fit flat with. It looks like the cabs where built with that in mind. Its a perfect flush fit. Then install your end peices over that just like the fronts. It makes the sides look exacly like the fronts.

    Bookmark   March 16, 2013 at 3:26PM
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