This post was edited by ardmi on Sat, Jan 11, 14 at 15:48
First, let's compare apples to apples and assume 60 gallons per person per day OR 75 for each case so you can see the real difference. You will have to decide where you believe your water use to be.
Second, your dealer is remiss to tell you that 15 lb salt per cubic ft (the salt dose of 23 lb) will maintain your softener at a capacity of 48,000 grains. It won't. You would have to dose with in excess of 30 lb/cuft or a total of over 45 lb to come close to 48,000. At the dose they are suggesting, your softener will be able to maintain a capacity of 45,000 grains. Assuming you have a capacity of 48,000 grains will result in nearly a full day of hard water at before each regen.
On to the calculations:
If we assume 75 gal/person/day
Option A will regen every 7 days and use 95 lb of salt over the course of the month. That is 1700 grains hardness removed / lb salt.
Option B will regen every 6 days and use 65 lb of salt over the course of the month. That is 2408 grains hardness removed / lb salt.
If we assume 60 gal/person/day
Option A will regen every 9 days and use 74 lb of salt over the course of the months. That is 1700 grains hardness removed / lb salt.
B will regen every 7-8 days and use 52 lb of salt over the course of the month. That is 2408 grains hardness removed / lb salt.
This post was edited by aliceinwonderland_id on Sat, Jan 11, 14 at 20:07
p.s. - it has an 18x33 brine tank too if that make a difference with the settings.
Thanks so much, have a nice evening.
This post was edited by ardmi on Sat, Jan 11, 14 at 15:49
This is not a valve that I particularly like, nor do I have a manual for it. So, I will tell you what your settings should be and it will be up to you to figure out how to make that work.
For a 1.5 cubic ft softener with your water, best salt and water efficiency will be achieved if you regen with 6 lb salt per cubic ft of resin. That is a total salt dosage of 9 lb of salt per regen, or 3 gallons of brine per regen.
At that salt dosage, your softener will have a capacity of 31,500 grains or 900 gallons at your water hardness. Set up correctly, your softener will subtract 75 gallons per person reserve capacity, giving you an effective capacity of 750 gallons or 6-7 days between regens.
My recommendations are only as good as the information you provided, which was incomplete.
Whats incomplete about the information I provided?
Its the same information I provided to Fleck technical assistance that told me for my situation I should be setting the cam for the salt lbs from the factory default of 18 to 23 for my unit.
So either you or Fleck are misinformed. I know I am!! lol
BTW: Heres the generic equation I used for the gallons:
2 people x 75 gallons =150. 150 x 35 gpg +5250 grains removed per day. 48,000 softner / 5250 = 9.1 - 1.0 for reserve = 8.1
8 x 150 gallons = 1200
Please explain why you dont like this equation.
This post was edited by justalurker on Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 13:51
When sizing and setting up a softener, a more complete water analysis is necessary in order to ensure we account for other things in the water that will affect softener performance. In a nutshell:
Magnesium and calcium are the major components of hardness, the first step in softener sizing.
If pH is out of whack too far in either direction, softener performance will be compromised or resin damage will occur.
If TDS is too high, the softener will need to be regenerated with a higher salt dosage than we would normally use for best efficiency. Failure to do so will result in hardness bleed. This changes the recommended softener size.
Each ppm of iron must be treated as if it were 68-83 ppm of hardness. Each ppm of manganese must be treated as if it were 136-166 ppm of hardness. The presence of either or both of theses drastically increases the softener size needed. If they are too high, a softener would not be adequate. If the softener is already purchased, as in your case, their presence will dramatically increase the amount of salt required for regeneration.
Sulfates will foul a softener fairly rapidly. I would be derelict to recommend a softener if it would quit working within a few months.
Nitrates will damage resin.
Bacteria will foul a softener.
We want to know if you are on city water because the chlorine used to keep your water safe will also damage the softener resin. A better grade of resin is necessary.
Turbidity, if high enough, could render a softener useless as well, either fouling or damaging resin, depending upon the reason for the turbidity.
High alkalinity, like high TDS, will cause hardness bleed and possible resin damage so it changes the regen salt dosage, which changes softener size.
Water chemistry is complex and all of the components interact. Specifying water treatment is not as simple as plugging a couple of numbers into an equation - there is a thought process involved.
Now, as to your calculations - your equations is correct, but your numbers are not. Here's why:
You assumed 75 gallons per person per day. While this could be correct, most people will use closer to 60.
48,000 grains is only correct when your softener resin is brand new. If you wanted to maintain your softener at 48,000 grains, you would have to regenerate it with obscene amounts of salt. It would be impractical for all sorts of reasons.
As we regenerate with lower salt dosages, the capacity of the resin decreases.
When operating a softener, we try to find a balance between good hardness removal, salt efficiency and water efficiency. Given relatively clean water (no iron, manganese, particulate or high TDS), that point resides where we regenerate with 6 lb salt per cubic ft of resin.
At 6 lb salt / cubic ft of resin, a 1.5 cubic ft softener has a capacity of 31,500.
2 people x 60 g/p/d = 120 gal/d
120 gal/d x 35 gpg = 4200 gpd
31,500 g/4200 gpd = 7.5 days
With a better controller, you would then...
I see JAL posted while I was typing.
6 lb salt / cuft resin will get you about 6 days between regens.
8 lb salt / cuft resin will get you about 7 days between regens
The lower salt dose will use 429 more gallons of water each year. The higher salt dose will cost you about 84 more pounds of salt each year. Your choice.
Thanks for your reply justalurker.
Please explain why the equation that has me setting the gallons to 1200 is not correct.
Also why is the manufacture and my dealer telling me to higher the dosage where your telling me to lower it?
Thank you (I apreciate your opinion and time).
Also the dealer recomended the size as well as all the calculators recomended 48K... why is it undersized then?
This post was edited by justalurker on Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 13:54
Thank you both for your thourough explanations.
So just to clarify the salt setting that are changed in the back are x 1.5 cubic inches?
The one I installed goes up to like 15 or 18 buit I saw a picture of the same head that had cam setting higher?
I think you both said your not very familar with the unit but I thought I would throw it out there anyway....
This post was edited by justalurker on Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 13:55
I meant to say cubic feet.
I will use your recomendation.
However, to clarify about the cam, the manufacture told me to set it to 22.5. The cam dial does not go that high. I would multiply the settings on the cam by 1.5 cf. (So 22.5 is 15 correct?)
This post was edited by justalurker on Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 14:02
I guess your not reading what I am saying, I am not asking where to set it, I am asking about the cam design and what the numbers represent... there are multiple designs.
As you will see:
http://www.pentairwatertreatment.com/PentairFiles/Pentair Water Treatment/Bulletins/395-Improved Brine Cam.pdf
So for the final time, thank you.
THe brine cam in the unit I installed only goes to 18.
First, that is ANCIENT news... 2003.
Second, the salt scale installed depends on the size of the BLFC. If your scale is 18 then you have the old style scale and a .25 BLFC.
Third, since you are not reading what I am saying there's no reason for me to waste my time trying to help you..
This post was edited by ardmi on Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 15:25
ardmi - The numbers on the salt scale are direct and do not need a multiplier. If you set it at 12 you will get 12 lb of salt.
This post was edited by aliceinwonderland_id on Sat, Dec 21, 13 at 16:07
Thanks Alice for the response.
I see the Lurker got pissed off, deleted his messages and rode off into the sunset. But before he flew off the handle, he failed to realize I wasnt questioning his setting but rather the equipment I have here.
The BLFC on my unit read .50 1.5. I bought a 48K softener has a 10x54 tank. However, there was a mistake since the cam in my unit can only go to 18. Which is not the right assembly for what I ordered.Im told the right assembly has the ability to set the salt to 32 lbs.
So I guess none of this matters if I set the pounds to 12 but I definetly cant set it to 22.5 like fleck or the dealer suggested regardless of the most efficient setting suggested by the Lurker which I have it set to now.
BTW: I Would be happy to repost Lurkers suggestions to me if anyone is following along, delete functions dont work so well around here!
And now I am realizing if I set the old style cam to 12 I am actually getting 24lbs of salt. Its just the sticker that is different.
Unless the entire brine valve and gear is different... then its a big issue.
Just thinking outloud here.
"The BLFC on my unit read .50 1.5. I bought a 48K softener has a 10x54 tank. However, there was a mistake since the cam in my unit can only go to 18. Which is not the right assembly for what I ordered.Im told the right assembly has the ability to set the salt to 32 lbs"
Not an unusual occurrence when buying from online drop-shippers.
You can't use the scale in your 5600 with the wrong BLFC. With the wrong cam for your .50 BLFC 12 will not be 12 pounds of salt.
Get the correct can assembly for the .50 BLFC you have and THEN the numbers on the scale will be correct. With the correct cam assembly for the .50 BLFC 12 on the scale will be 12 pounds of salt.
Sounds like there is a problem with whomever sold you this softener. At this point, you really don't know what you've got. Possibly the salt sticker is the wrong one. Possibly the BLFC sticker is the wrong one. Possibly both are correct, but shouldn't be installed together. What a mess.
If I were you, I would send them back the old softener and get a better one from someone else. They clearly don't know what they are doing. At the every least, given that they are still selling an OLD valve assembly (or possibly cobbling together new and old) I would question them about the resin installed and how long it has been sitting around and in what conditions.
However, if you don't wish to do that, your recourse at this point is to first determine the actual BLFC size, set the salt and time the brine fill. To determine BLFC size, you will need to run your brine fill line into a bucket and measure. 1 gallon of water = 3 lb of salt. So, with a BLFC of 0.5 you want the brine to fill for 8 minutes = 4 gallons = 12 lb salt. If the BLFC is a 0.25, you need 16 minutes of brine fill.
I wouldn't go through the hassle - it's your vendor's problem and they should fix it.
This post was edited by aliceinwonderland_id on Mon, Dec 23, 13 at 11:43
Alice is right on the point. Seems that the old cam assembly is in your 5600. It might be a valve assembled from parts laying around.
This is EXACTLY why the new electronic valves are better for DIYers. All of this is easily handles in the control valve programming.
You should make you seller replace the Econominder with a 5600 SXT configured for 1.5 cubes at no charge or find another dealer.
If they only offer to send me a replacement cam, does this mean that the brine valve and gears would also have to be replaced?
This post was edited by ardmi on Mon, Dec 23, 13 at 11:59
At this point without the valve in my hands I won't commit to understanding EXACTLY what you actually have.
If you paid by credit card you have leverage over the seller so make them do the right thing or jam the entire purchase down their throat.
As a side note... your contact at Pentair should have caught this right away so they ain't so smuckin fart.
Do you happen to know if the location of the bypass valve connection is the same on a SXT as the econominder?
If I presue an exchange and ask for the electronic version, I want to make sure I dont have to alter the plumbing for it to fit.
Since you said BYPASS I'll assume you have a stainless steel one.
Overall height should be the same. The SXT has a separate module for the turbine then bypass then yoke while the Econominder has the dome then bypass so distance from valve center to the wall might be different.
I think (not absolutely sure) that you can make up that difference by using the Noryl bypass and yoke instead of the SS bypass online sellers usually supply. The Noryl bypass is better anyway.
I just timed the brine refill. Set at 12lbs, it almost filled a 5 gallon bucket in 8 minutes. The entire refill process took about 11-12 minutes and produced just over 5 gallons.
So with that, it says I have a .50 and 12 is actually 24lbs and leaving it at 6lbs would give me the 12 actual lbs that you suggested. Until I can get this rectified with the dealer. Is this even an issue I should raise since I still get the capacity range I purchased?
My other questions remain too about the valve configuration and if changing the cam is just the white portion and the sticker or replacement of the intire valve and gear.
This post was edited by ardmi on Mon, Dec 23, 13 at 14:08
You posted about the valve placement while I as ... thanks for the info.
Should I make a stink about this?
In any case I can still set this properly as you suggested (in this case lbs set to 6).
Any compromise you choose is a compromise and can come back to bite you or a subsequent homeowner in the future. You spent the money get what you paid for.
I always get the right stuff, doing it the right way, and then move on.
If it were me... I want a new 5600SXT configured for 1.5 cubes, new top basket, Noryl bypass with appropriate yoke, and a service manual at no charge, They can issue a UPS call tag for the Econominder.
Then all you have to worry about is the anonymous or Nelsen brand resin you most likely got.
"You spent the money get what you paid for".
I agree with you if I didnt think I was getting the 48K capacity capable softener I paid for. Am I confused here?
The dealer tells me that they realize now that an entire batch of heads came this way from Fleck to them.Upon further investigation they confirmed the BLFC orfice size and the time motor is correct for .50 blfc and that the cam design between the two are identical except for the decal that is mislabelled in this batch of valves.
Then the timed brine refill I did confirms this correct?
They are suggesting sending me a replacement decal for the cam that fleck is sending them.
Am I getting screwed here?
Are we gonna do this again...?
Yup, you got a 48k softener IF you want to regenerate with 22.5 lbs of salt.
"The dealer tells me that they realize now that an entire batch of heads came this way from Fleck to them"
Really, and the person at Pentair you spoke to knew nothing about this?
The seller never sees the product you are shipped. They simply order electronically from a regional drop-shipper like Nelsen Corp. You get what the drop shipper sends and unless you know what you're looking at this is EXACTLY what happens to a DIYer.
Tell your seller that you want a kiss... As Al Pacino said in Dog Day Afternoon "when I'm getting #$%ked I like to get kissed too".
Who is this seller?
"If it were me... I want a new 5600SXT configured for 1.5 cubes, new top basket, Noryl bypass with appropriate yoke, and a service manual at no charge, They can issue a UPS call tag for the Econominder." or tell the seller they can have it all back and you'll dispute the credit card charge.
If you do decide to order from another seller you can make a smarter choice for control valve (7000SXT) and get a 2 cube softener.
This post was edited by justalurker on Mon, Dec 23, 13 at 16:33
Im not interested in a pissing match with you but I still fail to see where I am getting #@!cked?
The .25 and .50 brine cams, valve and gear function exactly the same... the only difference is the decal (what both the dealer and pentair told me... are they blowing smoke up my ass?).
Your opinion that I made a poor choice aside, I am getting what I paid for (other than the proper decal).
In regards to the efficiency though, generally...Im realizing now that a larger capacity softner (64) would be capable of regeneration my needs with less than the 22.5 pounds of salt?Or you telling me to dial down the capacity, now I am using more water correct?
So its a double sided sword with the capacity I bought, which is right at the borderline of the next size up? Is that what your refering to with my poor choice?
What am I missing here?
This post was edited by ardmi on Mon, Dec 23, 13 at 17:48
If changing decals makes you happy that's what you should do.
This post was edited by justalurker on Mon, Dec 23, 13 at 18:02
So your saying my reasoning for return should be to upsize the system. Not the fact the decal is wrong.
This post was edited by ardmi on Mon, Dec 23, 13 at 18:10
Your reason for returning is that your vendor is confused at best. Going through all this aggravation to figure out what they actually sent you in unacceptable. However, it is your money and your system and at the end of the day all that matters is whether or not you are satisfied with the proposed solution. That said, it may be beneficial for others considering an online purchase to know the name of the vendor you used.
I understand what your saying Alice but I am forced to allow some comprimise here as well.
Its not exactly practical to package up 200+ pounds of tanks, saturated resin and equipment and take it down to the UPS store. Also breaking newly installed plumbing (that also includes other filteration equipment) might not be in my best interest either.
I guess I dropped the ball from the get-go thinking a 48K is acceptable.... (and acording to all the calculators and equations I plugged in, it was) until you and the softner boss here explained the trade-off.
p.s.--- Just close this thread, no reason to beat a deadhorse with me.... I know your both thinking I am a fool deserving of being taken (the kind of guy you and Lurker probably hope to see walking into your water filteration business.)
No one deserves to be taken ever, for any reason.
If someone is taken due to ignorance when the information they need to make an informed decision is at their fingertips from people who have no financial interest in what they buy they brought it on themselves.
It's the people who don't know what they don't know that usually don't get what they need, but rather what they're sold.
This post was edited by justalurker on Tue, Dec 24, 13 at 19:11
I don't believe you are a fool. Nor do I believe you deserve to be taken. Rather I believe you are a consumer trying to do the best you can. You shouldn't be expected to be an expert in water treatment, but the home water treatment industry is full of uneducated and dishonest companies. It's sad.
I have no dog in this fight - I am not affiliated in any way with any water treatment company. My education and experience, prior to retirement, was engineering water treatment for the industrial facilities where I worked. I offer assistance on this site because I just hate to see a company get away with treating customers the way you have been treated. Best of luck to you - I hope it will all work out to your satisfaction.
DISREGARD- MY CALCULATOR IS BROKEN/.
This post was edited by ardmi on Sat, Jan 11, 14 at 15:46
Yes my calculator was off. Its becoming clearer (yes call me an idiot if you like).
Its set now to remove 35gpg = 4200 grains per day.
by having it sett at 12lbs, aren't I set for a 24K capacity with the 50 blfc?
(ie cutting the 23 lbs dosage for 48K capacity in half?)
What happens if we don't quite use 60 gallons per person and the regens are pushed up a few more days?
This post was edited by ardmi on Sat, Jan 11, 14 at 17:16
No - the relationship between salt dosage and capacity is not linear - it is more logmarithmic.
If you find that you consistently use less water than the estimated 60 gal/person/day, you can set regen time accordingly and use a bit less salt.
"If you find that you consistently use less water than the estimated 60 gal/person/day, you can set regen time accordingly and use a bit less salt."
How is the adjustment made?
For example say we are using 90 gallons a DAY instead of 120....
This post was edited by ardmi on Sat, Jan 11, 14 at 17:59
By changing the days between regens. 12 days if you only use 90 gal/day total and Regan with 12 total salt
OK, just so I can understand better... if we do 90 a day...
set at 12 lbs (will this be 36000 or 34000 capacity?)
if 36000/3150 = 11 - 1 = 10 days between regen
if 34000/3150 = 10 -1 = 9 days between regen
set to 900 gallons
set to 810 gallons
with the salt at 12lbs then I would be covered if we happen to approach the 120 a day as well?
Is that correct?
--- im still confused about the salt vs. capacity thing... if they are not related then how can you say I am setting it 34000K by dialing in 12lbs of salt?
Also if you still care to respond. Why in my case is 8lb of salt x 1.5 preferable to the 6lb of salt x 1.5 that I am seeing referenced in other posts here?
Sorry, my mistake - I was looking at the # for the higher salt dosage. 10 days is correct at 8 lb salt / cu ft resin for you.
I NEVER said there was not a relationship between salt dosage and capacity. I said the relationship was not linear, but logarithmic.
8 lb/cu ft is not necessarily better for you - you made that choice. If you want to use 6 instead that is absolutely fine - you will be more salt efficient and less water efficient regen every 6 days and use 7 lb less salt per month (assuming 60 gallons/person/day water usage).
So what constitutes capacity then? Gallons of water. And if so what are the gallons relationship... for 34K, 36K, 40K, 48K?
Not linear or logarithmic... you got to dumb it down brother.
Capacity is determined by the specific resin at specific salt dosage. There is no set capacity in gallons because waters are all different.
Linear: in a straight line so that if you drew a graph it would be a straight slope up.
Logarithmic: in a curved line on a graph, sort of like half of a hill, where the highest point approaches, but never quite reaches - the hill starts out steep but nearly levels off at the top.
I'm not running a math and chemistry class here - that's as simple as it can get.
"Capacity is determined by the specific resin at specific salt dosage"...
OK, but that still doesn't specifically answer my question.
With 1.5 cubes of resin, what values of lbs of salt = the capacity?
answer that and I will be on a linear path to enlightenment.
This is a general chart and does not reflect the hardness removal capability of specific resin brands or types so it is not empirically accurate.
This post was edited by justalurker on Sun, Jan 12, 14 at 11:49
You can't fine tune a crude device. With this control valve, if you estimate your water usage based on the minimum you think you might use, you will all too often have hard water the day before regen.
Just set your salt at 12 and your days at 7 and be done with it. Check your salt level weekly and don't fuss with the valve unless something breaks.