The chances of receiving a refund on a pup?

cyndaleighDecember 13, 2009

My fiance got me a miniature dachshund for an early Christmas present, we drove over 6 hours round trip to pick him up, and when we arrived at the "breeder's" (which I won't even get into right now), there were two puppies in a child's play pen, the puppy we were originally going to get was going absolutely crazy, he was so hyper. We have a very docile cat, and live in an apartment, my fiance works full-time and I work part-time and attend school online, so he really didn't seem like he would fit. However the other puppy in the pen was very calm, and seemed like he would be a better fit, and we were agreed with. This dog was a dapple, as the other was a black and tan, and therefore cost more. We paid and then she gave us the papers, which were not in her name, nor the name of the person she said was raising this litter, but we didn't question further. His vaccination papers had blood on them, and where the spaces were filled in, the word vaccination was even spelled incorrectly numerous times, and as we were leaving she was talking about how she had to go vaccinate a puppy someone was supposed to be coming to get, which made me wonder if they were even vaccinated at a vet. This dog was also supposed to be crate-trained, we stopped twice on the way home to make sure he didn't need to relieve himself, and then when we arrived home I waited outside for 15 minutes before I decided he must not have needed to go. The moment he got inside, he ran into his crate and went in his dog bed. This has happened twice. Everytime I even as much as go to the bathroom he is crying and barking very loudly, I can't leave him in his kennel without him going nuts, even if it is right next to me. I have gotten two notes on my door about how disturbing he is and I have only had him for 24 hours. I understand this is what puppies do, and I know it isn't his fault. But we don't have the time, or privacy required for a dog like this right now. I called the "breeder" who said she would have to get in contact with the person who had the dog to see if he would accept a refund, but she suggested I get a shock collar. I told her I would give her the bag of food we have ($20), the kennel ($40), the bowls, toys, leash, halter, and puppy pads (all about $40) we have if she would accept the refund. She told me that it was funny I was calling because the puppy we chose was actually the talkative, demanding one. I feel that this should have been said when we changed our minds and voiced the reasons why. I have to miss work tomorrow in order to stay home with this puppy so I don't get evicted. This is costing me so much money, and he isn't a bad dog, AS LONG AS someone has the time and patience for this type of puppy right now, so she can resell him. I know I wrote a novel here, but I want to make sure I have all my bases covered. Is there any chance we can get a refund?

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Most reputable breeders not only will give you your money back, they'll insist that you return any unsuitable pups back to them. They want them back, rather than have them go to uncertain circumstances.

I have vaccinated my own pets. It's legal in my state, all but the rabies vaccination, and that has to be provided by a veterinarian. IOW the law isn't going to take your word for administering rabies vaccine. But, what bothers me about this is anyone who breeds dogs routinely have puppies vet checked before selling them, so why would they not have the vets give the puppy shots?

I feel so sorry for your situation. Both for you and for the dog. I have no idea if there are any regulations in that state about breeding and selling dogs. Mostly private parties who do it with family pets may even be exempted if there were. Were they advertising across state lines? Running a puppy mill? Have a kennel license? If you can't get satisfaction, perhaps you could contact the humane officer at their location and ask if there have been any complaints regarding that 'business'?

    Bookmark   December 13, 2009 at 9:35PM
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I can confidently opine that you do not stand a chance of getting a refund. I don't mean to sound harsh but I have been involved in pure breed rescue and can guarantee the following:
This "breeder" had raised almost every possible red flag and you did not catch any of them. If the "registration" papers are from the CKC ... given what you've posted I wouldn't expect otherwise ... they aren't worth the paper they are printed on. I guarantee this pup has never been seen by a vet and I suspect the "breeder" was fronting for a puppy mill in which case you bought yourself a pretty badly (no parent health screening) bred, poorly socialized pup that more than likely will develop whatever genetic health problems are specific to the breed and a host of behavioral issues. As far as "crate training" goes how young is this pup? I sure hope at LEAST 8 weeks. I'm not even going to go into the "breeder" suggesting you put a "shock" collar on this poor thing. If within 24 hours of bringing this mess home you are close to getting evicted I would kindly suggest you accept that you are in way over your head, made an expensive mistake and realize that at this point in your life you are in no way ready to take on the huge responsibility of owning a dog (they are not cute "toys" and should NEVER be bought as "Christmas presents"). Please, please, please do not try to "get your money back" by trying to sell him to the next unsuspecting person. I promise if you do this the poor pup will have a miserable, horrible life. I've seen this exact scenario too many times working with rescue. Do the right thing and find a legitimate (non-profit/501c) doxie rescue to surrender it to. They are used to handling and placing these fragile babyies into proper homes that understand the special handling needed to compensate for the bad start in life they've had.

    Bookmark   December 13, 2009 at 9:42PM
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The dog is almost 4 months old, and this was a present yes, but I am not a small child, I knew what I was getting myself into, an unsocialized puppy with massive anxiety was not it though. All-be-it my last dog must have been one in a million because we never had any problems with her. We had talked about getting a dog for a long time, and Christmas was the decided time to invest the time and money. I was not able to speak to the person who handled these puppies, and the person I supposedly bought it from. The lady I saw says she just shows them for him because he doesn't like interacting with the public, she won't even give me a phone number to reach him. This whole scenario is bad, and I feel like even if I can't get my money back there has to be something I can do to help warn other people about this. A good family friend is a lawyer, and he is suggesting that I take it to court, because there is no other way that anything can be enforced. This whole thing baffles me, and I do feel sorry for the poor puppy who got the bad end of the deal. The papers are from the APRI.

    Bookmark   December 13, 2009 at 9:58PM
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The APRI may have a record of who the breeder is.

Bring the puppy to a vet and have any and all issues documented. What are your state laws regarding pets?

    Bookmark   December 13, 2009 at 11:24PM
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I am with TOURNANT 100%.

This breeder obviously sold you a Puppy Mill dog.

I had something similar happen to me. By the time I suspected that I got a puppy mill dog, I already fell in love with the puppy. The breeder told me that she "exchanged" puppies with a friend from another State(PA). The breeder bred Cocker Spaniels. Years later I Googled the breeder on the papers and it was one of the largest Puppy Mills in PA, owned by the Amish! Yeah, the father on the paper was a 4 MONTH OLD Shih Tzu. Right.

On closer inspection at home, I noticed the puppy was really sick. She was a 2k dog overnight. This was back in 1996. I called the breeder and she told me to bring her back....and I said: So you can kill her? It was obvious she was poorly bred and was sickly. I still have her. She's almost 14 yo, supposedly a Shih Tzu. I can tell that she's not a purebred...She is the cutest dog and I love her, but she has been a challenge since day 1. She's DOG aggressive, and I don't trust her with little kids. BTW- I found out later that other people in the area got dogs from this breeder with problems. One woman was going after her... I don't know the details. I was too busy to get involved.

I am paranoid now. After she's gone ( she has Cushings, Thyroid and Kidney problems), I will be looking for another dog, but am soooo afraid of getting an aggresive one. I cannot get another dog NOW because of her aggression. I had been on pins an needles for ages, while my other dog was alive (put her to sleep last year, at almost 18). I couldn't even enjoy my dogs because of the constant stress watching this one so she didn't attack the older one, I tried taming her, but it didn't work. I knew I was stuck with her because someone else would have put her down.

This whole experience gave me a reason to be very selective with my next puppy. Ideally, I would love to save a puppy from a pound. However, after this, I will not. I feel that this past shady breeder transaction was far worst than getting an unknown origin dog from a pound. I will be screening the next puppy with a fine tooth comb. I want to see BOTH parents. I want to ask health questions in detail. I want references.

In a nutshell: Surrender your puppy to a Doxie rescue, PLEASE.

    Bookmark   December 14, 2009 at 8:12AM
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Lesson learned the hard way... sorry about the pup.

There is a key phrase in the first post, "But we don't have the time,..." that leads me to believe that the OP did not know what they were getting into.

Perhaps you could work with a doxie rescue to trade with them "your pup that you don't have time for" in exchange for an adult potty-trained dog. Offer a nice donation for the rescue with the exchange ...

    Bookmark   December 14, 2009 at 12:47PM
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A reputable breeder does not operate like this. I have to wonder how bad the conditions are at his own facility which forces him to use a 'distributor' off site.

A puppy might not have been the right choice for you at this point in time. Even trained they are a handful! This little guy, while his behavior is fully correctable, needs some work. It sounds like he was TRAINED to go potty in his crate :(

You have to have some kind of official documentation about the puppy to have any recourse at all. He needs to go to the vet - SOON. Make him an appointment and have him checked over well and also explain your distrust in the vaccinations. (He might come out clean but have problems down the road). If you can get some documentation, you can try to get your money returned & file complaints. Right now, it just sounds like he's having trouble adjusting to his new home, there unfortunately isn't much to go on.

Check with your attorney friend, you might have to go after her since she actually sold you the dog. The 'breeder' might deny the transaction altogether. It's complicated, I don't know. Do you have a receipt for the money you paid? You have all of her info. You could start by calling her and telling her you are reporting her to the Humane Society, ASPCA, AND the Attorney General and will also follow through with a small claims action. If you obtain the breeder info from APRI (it's supposed to be the sire & dams owner) tell her you're filing complaints about both of them. They may refund your money just to get you off their back. (If you are getting a refund, wait to make your complaints).

You should call the ASPCA or the Humane Society in HER jurisdiction. There are probably details they can ask you that you weren't aware of to tell us. They may have other complaints about this facility and your call will help them build a case. Provide them with as much detail as possible including the 'breeders' name & address if you are able to obtain it. Even if the puppy doesn't show signs from health problems right now I would still speak with them. They may have gotten tips about other 'distributors' in the area. It's very important for the agencies to hear from us. It's a way to try to prevent some of this abuse.

The correct way is for us to stop buying these animals completely.

    Bookmark   December 14, 2009 at 6:13PM
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I took him to doggie daycare at my vet and had him looked over after I picked him up. They were positive that this is a puppy mill dog. I already called the humane society here in my county and will be calling in her county tomorrow. I decided last night after I posted this, even if she did agree to offer me a full refund I wouldn't have accepted. She called today and offered $100 because even if they accepted him back, they would have to give him to a rescue because "I am the one who traumatized and beat him". It's not fair to the little guy to give him back to her, I don't want the money, I want her and whoever she works with to be shut down.
The dog has a underlying bruise on his side, and was likely on the recieving end of a lot of abuse from owner and littermates. And he does have a lot of work that needs to be done in order to get him to calm down when he's alone, likely because he was alone in crates at the breeders.(Vet's words) He checks out medically as far as anything serious, which I am glad for. He is going back to daycare tomorrow, and then we are starting a puppy class tomorrow night. I understand getting the feedback for not having the time, but more than the time, it is living in an apartment. I can't just put him in his kennel with his things and let him cry and bark until he's content, and that really is the big issue. We are going to keep going to the vet while I work, and puppy classes and see if we can work through this. If not, there is a vet tech that I will give him to. I feel confident that she would be able to give him the home he needs.

    Bookmark   December 14, 2009 at 8:57PM
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This sounds like an impulsive "romantic" purchase. You probably jumped on Craigs List and bought the first litter you looked at. I am wondering why you want a dog, period, given you and your husband's schedule, lifestyle, and where you live (an apartment), the working hours, etc. Whether this is a "puppy mill" dog or from a reputable breeder, any puppy (or adult dog for that matter) will be needy and have separation anxiety when it gets to a new home/environment. Did you research this breed at all? You need to go to to see the good, bad and ugly of all breeds (I am the owner of a B&B for dogs in northern CA for quite a few years). To think a puppy, or any adult dog for that matter, is going to be housebroken and "emotionally fine" once you take it home is just nonsense. Regardless of where this dog or any other you acquire comes from it will need hands-on supervision and also a very regimented schedule and a consistent routine, socialization and training in place in order for it to be the dog of your dresms. PS Congratulations, we just have another cast-off dog to add to the multitude of homeless. My own dogs are rescues.

    Bookmark   December 14, 2009 at 10:55PM
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Ugh. Mary. Lighten up. She's trying to do the right thing.

    Bookmark   December 14, 2009 at 11:22PM
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So glad to hear you're working with doggie day care and your vet! I think there's hope you'll end up with a good pet.

Tournant is correct in where the dog came from. There was a puppy mill owner recently arrested and sentenced in our area but it took years for this to happen since he knew how to elude being caught. The articles about him was a real education on how the puppy mills set up people to pose as breeders (known as brokers) and they're supplied with litters of pups.

Clues in the future: several litters (and varieties of pups) and no parents to be seen. Sellers wanting to meet in parking lots or bringing the dogs to you. No records of vet checks and no vet mentioned as a referral for the 'breeder'. And, as in your case, too many 3rd parties. No reputable breeder is going to let someone else represent them.

I'm sure others can add to the list. Maybe the forum should add 'How To Recognize a Puppy Mill Broker' in the FAQ's.

    Bookmark   December 15, 2009 at 12:40AM
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I think the way you are dealing with this is exactly right. I agree with the poster who said he would probably be euthanized if returned.Although he obviously had a rough start and the breeder was either a front for a puppy mill or an irresponsible backyard breeder, I think some of the behavior you describe is normal for his age.

I have a new puppy who is 15 weeks old and I've had her for a week and a half. I feel she has a wonderful temperament and is adjusting well, but she still barks in her crate sometimes. It's a matter of training them not to and it takes time. Unless he's very fearful, you could try shaking a can of pennies and saying, "Quiet" in a firm voice. Soon you should find that he responds to the command alone.

As far as housebreaking, I would never expect a puppy that age to be reliably trained. Small breeds especially require diligence in that area and can take a year to be completely broken. My puppy seems to have had a good start, but I still have to supervise her constantly and take her out right after she eats, naps, or plays.

The pottying in the crate is unpleasant, but you may have him in too large a crate. If there's extra space in it, many dogs will sleep in one end and potty in the other. He may also outgrow the problem as he becomes able to hold it for longer periods.

Good luck with him. I hope you can get his issues worked out.

    Bookmark   December 15, 2009 at 9:09AM
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I was glad to see this headline, but on reading what the new rules actually are, was disappointed. There must be a lot of commercial breeders/brokers in Indiana if this law was necessary : (

New Indiana dog breeding rules take effect Jan. 1

Updated: Dec 15, 2009 5:29 AM EST
Commercial dog breeders and brokers must register with the state under a new law that takes effect Jan. 1.

Under the law passed by the Indiana General Assembly last April, commercial brokers must register with the State Board of Animal Health if they sell at least 500 dogs or puppies per year.

Breeders must register if they have more than 20 unspayed female dogs at least 12 months old.

The board says it will charge brokers a flat-rate annual fee of $1,000. Breeders will pay based on the number of female dogs they have.

The law doesn't affect animal shelters, rescue operations, hobby breeders, and anyone who breeds at least 75 percent of their dogs for sporting, service or law enforcement and military purposes.

    Bookmark   December 15, 2009 at 9:09AM
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I think you are handling it well, and generously too, considering the obstacles. I sort of chuckled when you stated the pup was supposed to have been crate trained. I suspect the only time a lot of puppy mill pups are outside of the confinement of a crate or cage is when prospective buyers are coming. That's why they think they're supposed to potty in a crate, and why they act out when let loose.

He is a very young dog, and aside from breeding issues what might pop up down the road, is certainly young enough develop social skills.

    Bookmark   December 15, 2009 at 12:10PM
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Interesting that Indiana has passed some type of law, but IMO all their breeding rules can be easily side stepped by a shrewd breeder/broker. Setting the number at 500 is much too high.

What are the penalties if one doesn't register?

    Bookmark   December 15, 2009 at 12:16PM
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ooh, I hope you are able to work out the issues with puppy in a reasonable amount of time :) I'm sure some of the dog owners in here can give you some tips to help reduce some of his behavioral problems, too. Does puppy have a name yet? Thank you for speaking out and reporting this!

freezetag -
For all the time and money spent lobbying and this is what they write into law??? It's disgraceful. You should not be allowed to sell "at least" 500 puppies annually. What an atrocity these laws are. They give us these little bits of nonsense to try to appease us that there is an end in sight to all of this. There is not.

This is a billion dollar industry. Mill owners, backyard breeders, registration companies and the HUGE pharmaceutical industry are all profiting from this. If we don't change our mentality about buying that cute kitten or puppy; it's never going to end. I think they are too powerful to fight.

The AKC's position on this particular bill was to vote it down. They want better legislation. Agreed, but that's years and years and years of delay.

"The American Kennel Club and its members agree with the sponsor and supporters of this bill that animal cruelty is deplorable. Dogs should be kept in a safe, healthy environment and those who mistreat or abuse animals should be punished.

House Bill 1468, however, does not fix the problem of irresponsible dog breeders and it punishes responsible breeders. In addition, animal shelters, humane societies, and rescue organizations are exempt from the bill, and therefore not held to the same standards of care required for breeders.

It is important that all responsible dog owners, breeders, and fanciers in Indiana contact their State Representative and express your opposition to House Bill 1468!

If passed, House Bill 1468 would, among other provisions:

* Limit ownership to 30 dogs that are at least one year of age and are not spayed or neutered.
* Require microchipping for all dogs sold by a commercial breeder (10 or more litters a year)
* Protect a dog purchaser from buying a dog with disease or other health conditions, but provide no recourse for breeders victimized by false accusations.

The American Kennel Clubs mission includes working to protect the rights of all dog owners and promoting responsible dog ownership. The AKC strongly supports the humane treatment of dogs, including providing an adequate and nutritious diet, clean living conditions, regular veterinary care, kind and responsive human companionship and training in appropriate behavior. We believe, however, that numerical limits do not address the underlying issues of responsible ownership and proper dog care. Limiting the number of dogs an irresponsible owner may have will not make him or her a better owner. We also believe that the decision to microchip a dog is best left up to the individual breeder or purchaser.

The AKC supports reasonable and enforceable laws that protect the welfare and health of dogs without restricting the rights of owners or breeders who take their responsibilities seriously. We urge the Indiana House of Representatives to reject House Bill 1468 and instead work on legislation that will truly fix the problems of neglect and irresponsible ownership and protect the rights of responsible dog owners. "

    Bookmark   December 15, 2009 at 6:07PM
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Cyndaleigh, this is what I was afraid of when I was getting my new puppy as well. Since it was our first dog, we did a lot of research and reading. Several things we were warned off- never buy anything in the "parking lot" so to speak, have to see at least the dam, if not both parents, entire litter if possible and go with your instinct- if it smells wrong it probably is. At 4 month old you should have noted lots of behavior difficulties if you educated yourself what to look for and took time to spend more than few minuts with pup prior to buying him. I admire you for sticking it through and figuring ways to deal with. I am sure many behavior problems will be corrected easily enough with lots of love and patience.
We did get a pup from back yard breeder in IN, but we so far have very different outcome- our pup is pure joy and delight on top being drop dead gorgeous...
What makes our story different...We have seen living conditions and both parents, there were no other dog bred there except this specific breed-6 dogs total on premises, way out there farm. We were able to see entire litter of 7 at their 5 weeks old, spent time playing with them, evaluating them and choosing the one we liked the most. We were prepared for new baby / read a child/ from the get go, pup was never left alone for a minute- we arranged our schedules around the pup, we took him everywhere we went, socialized him with every human we met and arranged several playdates with dogs we know to be healthy. He is about 3 month old, sleeps thru the night, can't say housetrained yet as he actively will not ask to go out but he had not had any accidents for couple of weeks already, never in his crate. He started potty on cue word, since he is being handled by 4 people in the house, he is accustomed to people coming and leaving - no big deal so no separation anxiety, barks only when he wants to play with cats... he is playful, gets lots of walking outside, healthy, cheerful and joy of our life.
So back yard breeder is not nessessary evil, I am not talking about puppy mills, I would say if you get pup from them early enough there is good chance you could mold it in whatever you want. But one has to know what you doing when you choose a pup from circumstances where things seems slightly shady... and most important baby is the baby, no matter human or fur one. Tons of love and attention required, and I am glad to see you working to get your furry baby life he deserves...

    Bookmark   December 23, 2009 at 7:33PM
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Our experience was a lot like that above. It was a back-yard breeder in IL. We saw both the Mom and Dad and the whole litter. I can't imagine a professional breeder would have taken better care of the bunch.

Ours is a yellow lab and my first worry when seeing her was that she seemed so lethargic. Ha! We wish!!! She had just been sleeping and once awake, our worries were over. Labs take up to two years to mature and at 18 months we can tell that she is getting better ---- but still VERY energetic. We are both retired, so she has us with her every day -- can't imagine a high energy dog growing up well without plenty of exercise.

Not to excite you all too much, but we plan to allow her to have a litter in the spring before we have her spayed.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2009 at 9:22AM
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You KNOW the reponse you're going to get with your last sentence.

Allow her?? Just check petfinder and look at all the Labs that are needing homes. Most are in shelters for the traits the breed has.........high energy.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2009 at 11:37AM
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Yep, high energy and a wonderful playful personality. It will never be a guard dog but will love even people it doesn't even know. Why do you suppose it is and has been the #1 breed for years???

And yes, we will find homes for them and if not, we will keep those who don't find homes.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2009 at 12:15PM
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Then, assuming "find homes for them" means *good*, *permanent* homes, you'd better plan on keeping about eleven puppies.

    Bookmark   December 24, 2009 at 2:38PM
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carmen_grower -

This might help you in your consideration for breeding your lab. This is a listing of the inherited disorders labs are prone to. I'm very sorry but a reputable, caring breeder would have not have sold you a puppy without the very minimum of a spay/neuter contract. Where are you going to find a stud for your litter? You're probably going to have a difficult time finding a reputable breeder with a screened stud that would consider mating your pup. Were the parents of your dog screened for these defects? Are you going to be screening your dog? Please take a long, hard pause and ask yourself about the risk of health disorders in your litter. I know the thought of having a litter of pups is alluring, everyone loves cute puppies! However, in 5 years when they begin showing the effects of pain from these disorders, and the owners are utterly heartbroken, is it really worth it?

    Bookmark   December 24, 2009 at 11:00PM
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I dont understand why some people think their female must have a litter before getting spayed, there is no basis for it. Carmen considering how many unwanted animals are out there just destined for being put down because homes wont be found, why would you want to add to the dog population?

and kittens is absolutely right, labs in particular do need to be screened for hip and knee problems so they dont pass them on to their pups, this should be done at each generation and this is the problem with backyard breeding is those checks are usually never done no matter how good or clean the conditions might be they are raised in. If you have ever seen a dog with developed hip dysplasia it really breaks your heart to watch.

    Bookmark   December 25, 2009 at 12:03AM
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Bumblebeez SC Zone 7

I am very surprised at your post Carmen. Don't you know how many unwanted BEAUTIFUL dogs are killed each year? Why on earth would you bring more into this world and take away a chance of life and home from one of these poor dogs?

    Bookmark   December 25, 2009 at 12:21AM
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Carmen_grower, I totally respect the love you have for your dog. I'm sure it is a great and boundless one, but please just spay her. Volunteer with a rescue organization for just 2 weeks and you will be a convert and believe all that is said to you here. Do this before breeding her -Your heart will never see things the same again!

    Bookmark   December 25, 2009 at 2:58PM
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Children are starving all over the world. How many did you adopt this year????? It is a legitimate comparison. Actually, our vet will find a good breeder for us to use as a stud -- since we aren't going to be competition for him, it will just cost us a pick of the litter. BTW, our dog was tested for problems and is registered (if that makes any difference.)

I knew there would be silly posts here.

    Bookmark   December 25, 2009 at 5:38PM
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The only silly post here is yours.

    Bookmark   December 25, 2009 at 11:20PM
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"Children are starving all over the world. How many did you adopt this year????? It is a legitimate comparison. "

I dont get the comparison at all, what has one got to do with the other? A more sensible comparison would be to ask us how many dogs we've bred this year or ever.

whether you want to believe it or not you are part of the problem which is now imo at a crisis point because of puppy mills and backyard breeders trying to make a quick buck without having the knowledge and interest in breeding sound and good quality dogs or where they end up. Just because your dog has papers does not mean it is suitable for breeding, breeders select the best quality dogs for breeding and would never use just any dog or female from the litter and I doubt you would even know how your dog stacks up against the rest of its litter.

Anyway, I already sense this is like flogging a dead horse. I know too well that some people just dont get the connection and think it's always someone else who is causing the problem

    Bookmark   December 26, 2009 at 1:05AM
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carmen_grower, I just have a question. Why in the world would you do a breeding? Is she Chic and OFA certified? Are you familiar with any other tests that should be done?

    Bookmark   December 26, 2009 at 1:58PM
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Actually, our vet will find a good breeder for us to use as a stud -- since we aren't going to be competition for him, it will just cost us a pick of the litter. BTW, our dog was tested for problems and is registered (if that makes any difference.)

This coming from the poster who just recently wrote:
Please don't suggest a Vet -- not an option.

And the same poster, ranting about her potentially pregnant teenage cat...and calling cat dental a "torture"...and suggesting that anyone willing to shell out big money on dental cleaning is insane...

One does not have to be a lurker, to exhibit trolling behavior.

a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

I say, fits to a T.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2009 at 4:02PM
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Children are starving all over the world. How many did you adopt this year????? It is a legitimate comparison.

Ah, no, it's not. I'm not producing any starving children. You, on the other hand, will be directly contributing to the unwanted pet population.

Carmen brings up the fact that she will be breeding her dog every couple of months, just to cause a s***storm. I agree that there's something very trollish about her behavior.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2009 at 4:35PM
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I'd love to hear back from the original poster to get an update on how things are going.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2009 at 6:19PM
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trinigemini answer your question...I am very aware of all the children in the world who need husband and I have decided not to contribute to the problem and will adopt instead of adding to the population should we ever decide we want a child.

We have a purebred english bulldog. She is in the top 5% of bulldogs...according to our vet. Her parents have both won numerous awards. We get asked all the time if we will breed her. Our response to anyone ignorant enough to ask such a question, is of course not. We have her fixed and will not contribute to the ever growing dog population. She is a great dog with perfect temperment, coat and does not have the many problems much of her breed suffers from. If there was a shortage of bulldogs I definitely would have bred her, but that is not the world we live in. The world we live in is full of fools like you.

    Bookmark   December 26, 2009 at 7:06PM
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Wow some interesting posts here.
1st - I thought this was about wanting a refund. If they were not willing to take the dog back right away then I certainly woudln't want to fight for them to take it back. Can we not just care about the heart of the pup as well? If it was intially about the money and him not being the "right" personality then you go and find it a home! Suck up the cost as a lesson learned and speak with your local vets to find a home.
I am glad however to hear that you had a change of heart and you are amking all efforts to welcome this little guy into your family.
2 - the lady that is now going to start breeding labs - are you kidding me?? I have rescued so many chihuahuas at older ages because the wrong people owned them and there are so many other dogs out there needing homes. If you enjoy your lab - GREAT - continue to enjoy it. Help out at the local shelter if you want to see more dogs. Offer up your home as a temporary foster parent for those poor dogs that are still awaiting a permanent home - some of these are even pregnant dogs. But don't go and add to the overly populated possibility of homeless animals. Your not a reputable breeder - don't pretend or try to be one.

    Bookmark   January 1, 2010 at 1:55PM
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Hi, just crawling out from under my bridge to respond to some allegations. "Carmen brings up the fact that she will be breeding her dog every couple of months, just to cause a s***storm." Huh??? How can you breed a dog every couple of months?

Second 'huh?' " potentially pregnant teenage cat..." The kitten was about 12 weeks old we think, when we found her. She was starving so she could have been older, but certainly not a teenager. She never got pg but was outside all summer and fall. Maybe she is just sterile because I am pretty sure she was way too young for somebody to spay her. Anyway, she hasn't been in heat so something is not right. Our other cats are all fixed. Maybe they keep other cats off the property since we never see stray cats around here.

My only problem with expensive dogs from "legit breeders" is that they seem to have way too many health problems. Our lab is the first pure-bred dog we have had. All others were rescues. Never had health problems with the mixed mutts and so far, no problems with our lab. I just don't see the advantage with "legit breeders". Sorry. Now, back under the safety of my bridge.

    Bookmark   January 1, 2010 at 2:48PM
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One more thingie. Someone mentioned that I couldn't get advice from a vet if I didn't have one. All dogs and cats need a rabies shot every three years -- it is the one shot we can't legally administer ourselves. We had to visit the vet when our lab was a year old to get her 3 year rabies.

Breeders are all the same and their motivation is the same. They breed to make money. Yes, some are better than others, but the price of the animal tells you nothing. There are many good breeders (back yard or otherwise) and many bad. Taking the runt of a litter who has a smashed-in face and breeding it to create a new dog which becomes a registered breed is just plain cruel. I won't even go into docking tails and ears. It is a evil world out there.

    Bookmark   January 1, 2010 at 3:00PM
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Many breeders are irresponsible. NO, you CANNOT make money breeding. Not if you are planning on taking care of the momma and the litter properly. It costs a lot of time, energy and money to breed puppies.
Breeders barely break even or lose money. The breeders who breed for the money i.e puppy mills and some back yard breeders have poor quality puppies with possible HUGE vet bills.

I know I own a puppy mill dog. Basically, my puppy was sold by the AMISH (Pa) to a breeder in my state for $200. My breeder sold her to me for $500 in 1995. Technically, my seller made $200-$300 on the puppy, but I got stuck with a very sick dog costing me THOUSANDS overnight! That wasn't fair to my dog or me. She is still living (almost 14) with a bad leg, which now is very arthritic. She has many other issues, but I'm taking great care of her, so she keeps on ticking... I was not about to return her. I knew that my seller would let her die.

We are trying to tell you to love your dog all you want. If you love your dog you won't subject her puppies to a bad life. You don't know if the future owners will take good care of them, either. There is no way to assure that. When a dog gets sick, or we have a bad economy, people just let their dogs loose, or let them suffer being sick. DO NOT judge according to yourself. Not all take good care of their pets. Besides, many times you don't know if the future puppies won't get any lifetime illnesses, which the owners may not be able to afford, until it's too late and the momma has already been bred.

My previous Shih Tzu was the most perfect,sweetest dog, and I had thoughts of breeding her, partly for myself, but I'm glad I didn't.

1- I wouldn't be able to part with her puppies.
2-she got a retinal detachment(lost vision in one eye) at the age of 11. I had no way of knowing this was going to happen until she was 11. Supposedly that is a hereditary thing. If she had 6 puppies and I'd give them away, the other people may have not taken care of those puppies like I took care of mine. She lived with partial vision until 18. I had to get her drops from Canada, because she was allergic to every eye drop in the US. How many people would have done that? See my point?

I hope your dog lives a long time and is healthy. You may have gotten lucky. Enjoy her.

    Bookmark   January 1, 2010 at 5:55PM
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Breeders are all the same and their motivation is the same. They breed to make money. Yes, some are better than others, but the price of the animal tells you nothing. There are many good breeders (back yard or otherwise) and many bad.


Please, please, please, review the Information for Breeders' section on the AKC website. A true, knowledgable, experienced breeder's underlying purpose is to improve the breed, not make money.

From the AKC website - The motto of the responsible breeder of purebred dogs is "Breed to Improve." One of the best ways to get an objective opinion of your dog is to test it against others.

If you are not willing to do all it takes to become a responsible breeder, learn everything, study, etc., then your motivation is wrong - as you said, they breed to make money.

So if your viewpoint of breeding is to make money and not do the required work involved to bring healthy puppies into an over-pet-populated world, you are contributing to the problem.

Just at least be honest.

    Bookmark   January 1, 2010 at 6:13PM
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Okay, I need to respond to Carmen. I am a very small hobby breeder of Shelties. The idea for me to breed is to get another puppy to show and to improve the breed. Making money? Well, the last litter netted me exactly $34.00 CDN. I am not about to get rich on that. Bottom line is that if you do it right, you DO NOT make money. We have had 2 litters in the last 4 years. I was not able to get the puppy I wanted so I spayed my dog. At the same time, I made sure that all the puppies that were born from my actions got the best possible home since I was the one responsible for their being on this earth. I had many calls and turned a lot of people down and it wasn't until I was totally satisfied that my babies would have not only good but excellent homes that I let them go. If I hadn't been able to find excellent homes, I would still have my pups. Are you ready to go to the same extent to find homes? Are you willing to keep the pups if you don't? Are you willing to do all the expensive testing that is needed? Are you willing and able to pay for the consequences if something goes wrong during the birth and after? Are you willing to offer a health guaranty on your pups? Are you willing to take the puppies back at any time (even if they are 10 years old) if the home doesn't work out? Are you willing to do home visits and follow up on the pups as they get older? Do you have a contract to protect yourself and the puppies? Hope this makes you realize what is involved in breeding... Oh one more question, why are you breeding your dog again? Is that really a valid reason?

    Bookmark   January 1, 2010 at 10:04PM
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Too bad you don't live close to me ... I would take him off your hands.

Hope everything works out for you and the puppy.

    Bookmark   January 2, 2010 at 11:35PM
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As a vet, I had never heard of APRI, so I looked it up.

WOW. It's a registration site for puppy mills! REALLY!

This is from their new breeder application:
If You Are State Licensed, Enter # :
What % Do You Sell Direct To The Public? :
What % Do You Sell Direct From Your Store? :
What % Do You Sell Wholesale To A Broker? :
What % Do You Sell Wholesale To A Pet Store?

All I can say is- WOW.
You all should really read this. It's incredible. You know those few responsible AKC breeders who have limited registration for their dogs because they are not up to the breeder's standards? Well guess what, APRI will register it! That's right folks, now you can register your AKC reject and breed it and register those puppies! Whoohoo, what a way to make money!

Now I know.


    Bookmark   January 3, 2010 at 7:05PM
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I'm in the wrong business! $35 and up for a pedigree certificate, and look, they have almost 13,000 members. We sure are coming far with cracking down on puppy mills, not!!!

    Bookmark   January 3, 2010 at 9:33PM
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The 13,000 members are those who signed up, probably because they thought having the APRI included on their papers would make them seem legit. Perhaps they realized that being an APRI member means essentially nothing, because there are only 77 dogs registered, .006% if the "membership". The whole thing appears to be a big scam - much like the meaningless accreditations you can get for just about any business.

    Bookmark   January 3, 2010 at 10:45PM
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I read some of the posts on their forum, and all I can say OMG... Dear LORD there should be an IQ test required before people can even breed (HUMANS!). I am just sort of flabberghasted. It's amazing really -- and from the posts I read, the breeders there are completely oblivious to the damage they are doing.

The next thing you know, people will be wanting to know if they can get a "neuter-reversal" so they can begin to breed limited registration dogs.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2010 at 6:38AM
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OP, sorry to have hijacked your thread.


You are absolutely correct about accreditations. Accreditations are only as good as the people belonging to them. It amazes me how *someone* becomes thee body for accreditation in any business...and the SHEEPLE follow.

I frequent the decorating forum. They over there think there really is such a thing as an "accrediting Body" for STAGING a house for sale-LOL.

Anywhoo, my puppy mill dog has AKC REGISTRATION. I can tell she's not a burebred.
Even AKC is full of s-hit. Bottom line- the responsibility lies with the breeder. The piece of paper means nothing. It's a joke.

Accreditation means you pay your money and you get a piece of paper.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2010 at 11:00AM
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carmen..."We had to visit the vet when our lab was a year old to get her 3 year rabies."

do you intend to visit the vet again in another 3 years for the rabies vaccination? gee, must be nice to only need vet services every 3 years. i'm doing something wrong.

wow. just wow.

this thread got way off track (and i did my part, oops) but i wonder how the OP did or is doing with her doxie pup.

    Bookmark   January 4, 2010 at 9:49PM
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