Please help w design & symmetry on 144" sink/range wall

SparklingWaterMarch 3, 2013

Please help. We are struggling with our 144" sink/ range wall design. We can't seem to firm up a design that yields at least some upper cabinet symmetry and large enough cabinets (21" to 30"w). Base cabinetry desires include an 18" double garbage pullout next to the sink and and a cutting board/tray storage cabinet.

The sink plumbing is fixed at 48 1/4" exactly from the left DW wall. We prefer not to move the plumbing. Rear wall drain location still will allow up to 10" deep sink basin, 3/4 hp garbage disposal and air valve as currently plumbed. The new sink base (24'-30") must pass that rear wall plumbing by a little. That limits us to a good quality SS sink pretty much, possibly cast iron.

A primary goal: increase in prep space between the main prep sink and the range. Currently prep is done on 27 inches. This is a wide galley kitchen and the fridge, sink, cooking triangle works well. Due to 3" inch wall fillers on both sides of this 144", some leftward shifting of the new DW and new sink base towards the wall, as well as rightward shifting of the new 36" range should permit an increase in this prep surface to at least 30 to 33" (one designer got 36" but with only 12" to right of range and I want 15" minimum for an emergency).

We're replacing the 36" cooktop with a 36" range that needs 1/4" clearance on both sides. The old 42" hood is being replaced by a 36" hood. The range location can probably shift towards the right wall some, to help with that prep surface increase. The soffit above the vent-hood is being drilled into soon, so as to better establish the ventilation duct requirements as well as range placement.

How can this design be made somewhat symmetric and not filled with small not as functional cabinets? We've seen full overlay frameless and face frame cabinets and still are debating. Our house is traditional colonial with mullion windowed furniture in adjacent DR. Will frameless fit the look? I'm a tad hesitant, especially because I've read frameless needs to be tight in installation which means no wiggle room in design.

Here is the current layout of the 144" sink/range wall; the right fillers abuts a plaster wall covering brick which is load bearing:

Presently, facing the sink wall, there is 3" filler by the left wall base, a 24" KA DW, 30" sink base, 18" pull out garbage, 9" tray, 36" cooktop, 21" drawer stack and 3" filler.

Uppers from left wall are 3" filler, 21" upper, 36" over the sink shorter upper, 21" upper, 42" width vent hood (7" deep cabinet with vent hood suspended which conceals the rectangular 3"d x 24" w vent duct), an 18" upper and 3" filler adjacent to a plastered, load bearing brick wall.

I would SO appreciate your help: please help create some visual symmetry in the cabinet uppers/lowers on this important wall. Thank you so very much!

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What are you using the 3" fillers for on both sides and uppers and lowers?

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 3:06PM
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The 3" fillers are going in the remodel. We're going to use semi custom or custom cabinets. The graphic I posted is the current old kitchen. Six inches is too precious to waste on fillers. If semi-custom, I suspect the side fillers for counter support etc will be minimum required, is that 5/8" or less? Thank you.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 4:02PM
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Where are your pots and pans going to be located? Do they have to be on this wall as well? I know you say you want the 9" tray storage here - can that go above the fridge instead?

Symmetry usually implies equal sizing on both sides of a center point. I'm not sure that can be done here. Given your constraints i don;t thing you can equally balancing the range and sink either. Are you just looking for pleasing visual weighting of the upper cabinets?

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 5:56PM
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I'm also confused about the KD giving you 36" of prep space but, but according to you, only leaving 12" on the right side of the stove.

Here's my math - you have 144" of wall space but lets call it 142" to take into account clearances.

142" - 15" for counter to the right of the range - 36" for the range - 24" for the DW - 30" for sink base (can be adjusted) = 37" between sink and range for prep space. Or did I miss something.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 6:29PM
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Yes, visual weighting of uppers is what I'm looking for. It's harder to achieve than I thought given the desire for extra prep space. I spent most of the morning playing around but did not succeed. Something to balance the sink area (currently 30" sink base but will shift to left wall as will DW) and its upper cab (perhaps a shorter glass cab) with the 36" range and hood area. We will be placing day to day china and glasses in the cab above the DW and over the sink.

The pots and pans are on an L shaped wall directly across from and behind the range. An easy two steps and voila-a deep 30" double drawer base. I've measured, weighed, and placed all of our cooking pans/pots (75 pounds max times 2 drawers). Range utensils, pot holders will go to right of range in a drawer base.

You're right, the trays can go above the fridge in a half of a 24" deep cab and tall stock pots in the other. I realize adding a base tray is a bit old fashioned and in prime real estate location to achieve cohesiveness on this 144" wall.

We have face framed cabinets currently and the uppers are predominantly 21" (2) or 18" (1) flanking the sink and vent hood.

Thank you.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 6:46PM
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blfenton- thanks. Need an 18" double garbage pull out next to the SB. Other than that, we're open minded.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 6:57PM
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Here is the 12' wall across from this 144" wall. It's both unique and a challenge, modifying this kitchen. This shows 55 1/2" stairwell, 3" plaster support wall, then 85 1/2" from refrigerator to edge of back wall of L. Here we plan a 24" Sharp suspended from wall cabinet next to refrigerator, then design is open for the remainder of the L wall except for the 30" double drawer stack (or 3 drawer stack with top being more shallow). Still working on this design also. The long wall of the "L" corner is plaster over brick and weight bearing also.


    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 7:22PM
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I've read that with 42" uppers and trim (102" ceiling), one needs to be careful that the upper cabinet doors are able to pivot and not hit one another.

I can't recall the special fix commonly done or if it is a layout fix. I am planning on 42" high cabinets with trim to ceiling.

Thank you for your help.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 7:49PM
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In the current layout, not the new, the center of the sink and stove is 3" to the left of the tray cabinet (72" either way).

What is changing on this wall with remodel: the 14" below-the-ceiling soffits are being removed, the 3" wall fillers are being minimized (currently 6") to that needed to help support the counter top (granite or quartz).

Where will the center from sink to range be newly established if the sink shifts left and the range shifts right? It's necessary that the soffit above the range be opened to determine this interior wall ventilation, specifically the rear duct transition elbow length, width and height, and if any right range movement is even possible in the layout.

More facts are needed here to allow this wall's design. Patience is always a virtue. Thanks and I'll post here after this part is done.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 8:59PM
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work with 93 in to the left of range. stick with 15 in to the right of range for your last cab. with 38 in between sink base and range,if you aren't sure pull out the cabs so you get more depth to your prep space. pulling out sink base and dishwasher is fine too.left side of dishwasher can take a panel and a stringer at rear for counter...don't think you need a 3 in filler to left of dishwasher. On wall,for the 93 in area do three 30 in dbl door cabs..they can be 15 in deep and start at 21 in above counter-you'd like the elbow room since this is a main wall of concern. If symmetry is still hounding you do a 24 in dbl door above dishwasher and two 33 in cabs to the right of that. Don't do any door wider than 15 inches because of the 39-42 in height you want.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 9:00PM
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Wow, herbflavor, thank you very much. In the morning I will sketch out your recommendations on graph paper to better grasp and model them. Thanks again.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 9:51PM
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Ha, herbflavor, I just sketched your suggestion out on graph paper. It works! Gives the larger width upper cabinets, (multiples of 15"s) to avoid multiple small ones that were suggested with recognition of their 39" or 42" height and molding. It provides the greater base prep space so desperately needed, while allowing the SB within existing plumbing and yields a 15" base over on the right wall for emergency range hot pan placement. Haven't graphed your alternative as yet, but thank you very, very much!

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 10:25PM
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herbflavor give you a couple of options. When you draw them out try to do an elevation as well. I like the looks of the uppers in the 24" - 33" - 33" - 36"(vent) - 15" uppers. The weighting seems to be a little better. But it's hard to tell without being in the space.

It would do well above the 24"(DW) - 30"(sink) - 18"(trash) - 21" drawer stack) - 36" (range) - 15".

If you didn't want to do the 21" drawer stack but instead wanted to the 9" trays and then a 12" stack I just find it a little choppy against the upper cabinet formation. JMHO.

Good Luck and Have fun. (When I was planning our kitchen I probably did 50++ floorplans and cabinets plans.)

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 10:34PM
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blfenton, I was just typing to say thank you to you also, as you correctly pointed this out early on:

"142" - 15" for counter to the right of the range - 36" for the range - 24" for the DW - 30" for sink base (can be adjusted) = 37" between sink and range for prep space. Or did I miss something."

No, you didn't miss anything. Not use to doing this, I forgot about elevation so I will take some time and graph out the alternative upper run in the morning over your suggested base.

I truly appreciate your help. Thank you.

    Bookmark   March 3, 2013 at 10:46PM
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" Don't do any door wider than 15 inches because of the 39-42 in height you want"

herbflavor and bnfenton-I keep puzzling about the 33" cabinets as being over the 15" door width herbflavor discouraged. I returned to the very nice KD I've been working with on semi-custom face frame cabs- and we changed to the proposed upper cab layout: (L)24", 33", 33", 36" range hood, 15" cab (R).

While the KD didn't think the 33" upper over the 30" sink base was a great idea, I don't mind as it flanks the sink by 1.5" on each side. But, 33" mean 16.5" doors, right? I've never even heard of that. Or more likely it is 16" and reveal. That's above the "no more than 15" wide" door suggestion to avoid problems with 39" or 42" height (which he feels pose no problem as they turn on the door hinge). I do recall reading about trim and tall uppers in the past.

Is there something I'm not understanding that anyone might further clarify? Thank you very much.

This post was edited by SparklingWater on Mon, Mar 4, 13 at 15:16

    Bookmark   March 4, 2013 at 2:59PM
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33 in wide cabinet with 2 doors is likely fine. It's the mass of door required to open and get at day to day things.....18-21 in wide at the expanded height is a large heavy piece. Your original plan had 2 cabinets each at 21 in wide....36 or 42 in tall...I just wouldn't do that when you have other options. If you need to insert a 36 in wide with two 18 in doors,so be it, but I wouldn't choose that size to begin with. The thing with your kitchen is that it's small/not too many cabinets in total so you don't want dimensions that bug you over the long haul,when you can pick nice sizes from day one and you have a choice.Go to a showroom and open and close some double doored cabinets-24/27/30/33 in wide ...those sizes in some combination in the run should really be nice for your space.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2013 at 7:06PM
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Ok, I follow you now, thanks and yes to show room visit later this week. We have 36" wide cabinets now, they just end at 36" beneath a soffit. This is all new to me.

Thank you again for your insight and time. I really appreciate the pragmatic help.

    Bookmark   March 4, 2013 at 9:04PM
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