Fleck Controls? Which is better? 5600sxt or 2510sxt

jimbochapSeptember 18, 2010

Any real differences between them besides the prices?

Thanks for your help :)

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justalurker

Yes...

    Bookmark   September 18, 2010 at 8:44PM
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jimbochap

So what are the differences justalurker?

Also is turbulator that stirs up the resin to INCREASE IRON REMOVAL and conditioner efficiency. Do they work?

    Bookmark   September 18, 2010 at 9:17PM
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justalurker

All the information you seek can be found by clicking here and comparing specs.

I'm not a big fan of turbulators.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2010 at 9:37PM
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jimbochap

Justalurker,
Did not see the specs on the 2510sxt that you listed on the link in your post.

But I think for my needs since the tank I will be using is a 1.5 cu ft. 10 inch diameter and 54 inches high, the 5600sxt should work just fine. Looks like the 2510sxt is better for larger tank systems.

Since I'm going to be also buying a Centaur Carbon unit and installing it right next to my (well)waterpump and before the water conditioner the tubulator wouldn't serve it's purpose anyway. I'll pass on that.

Thanks for your help.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2010 at 11:07PM
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justalurker

The 5600 body is 3/4" and works well on 10" tanks and the SXT version is EZ to program. Make sure you get the top basket and the Noryl bypass is pretty nifty.

Curious what the Centaur will be doing.

    Bookmark   September 18, 2010 at 11:37PM
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jimbochap

Not sure what you mean, what is the top basket you are refering to? Do mean the Res-Care Feeder that keeps your softener's resin and brine system cleaner? With my iron level at 0.38 mg/L do you think I really need that?

The resin I was going to get is C-249, is that okay?

the plumbing connections options are:
Yoke 3/4" Noryl Male NPT
Yoke Stainless 3/4" Female NPT
Bypass Stainless 3/4" Female NPT
Which option do you think is best?
The Centaur is for a little problem I have, Sulfur smell I have when I first turn on the faucet in the morning, guess the gases kind of build up overnight and can be detected in the 2 bathrooms which are the farthest away from the well, pump.

The rotten egg smell can not be detected in a glass of water when you bring it up to your nose though, doesn't effect the taste of the water either. Just that oder when I first turn on the faucet.

So basically the Centaur is to control that smell.

These are my Raw Water results if that would help to see those.

Results Units
PH 7.44 su

Nitrate Total Coliform Bacteria Absence

E. Coli Absence

Iron 0.38 mg/L

Lead Manganese Mercury Gross Alpha 1.5+-0.6 pCi/L

Hardness is 7 grains or 119 mg/L. (Hardness, often times is expressed in mg/L as CaCO3)

TDS is 141 mg/L

3 people in the house
2 bathrooms

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 9:01AM
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justalurker

Tell whoever you're ordering the softener from you want a top basket, a Noryl bypass (not the SS one), and the Noryl 3/4" male NPT yoke. I would also want a gravel underbed even though some dealers say it isn't necessary in a 1.5 cu ft softener.

They will know what that means.

With iron you'll need routine resin treatment. The Res-Care or Iron Out (or similar).

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 10:13AM
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jimbochap

Are these the 2 Noryl products that make up the top basket?

http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/product_p/60049.htm

http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/product_p/18706-02.htm

Couldn't find the gravel underbed you are talking about but I'm sure they will know what is best for my softner when I call them.

Back to the Centaur Carbon unit, This is the one I'm looking at: 1.5 ft. Catalytic Carbon System with the Fleck 5600SE Control. Any comments on this unit, good or bad?
http://www.abundantflowwater.com/html/catalytic_carbon.html

Really appreciate all your help on this.
Thanks

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 12:13PM
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justalurker

Let's not go down the road you chose in previous threads and email...OK?

The first picture IS the Noryl bypass
The second picture IS the Noryl 3/4" male threaded yoke
You need them BOTH. The Noryl bypass is shallower than the SS bypass and makes for an easier install.

Neither picture is the top basket.

THIS is a top basket...

and here is where it goes... and you want to make sure you get one.

The gravel underbed is BEST for your softener but unless you tell them you want it they won't offer it... gravel costs them money and shipping. They know what is most profitable for them not necessarily what is best for your softener.

You are the customer and you get what you want. If what you want is not in the order form then you call, tell them exactly what you want, and make sure you get what you ordered. They can provide any of the options I recommend and if they won't at no extra charge then you aren't dealing with the right seller.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 12:44PM
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jimbochap

When using the C-249 resin, which one of the baskets below will work for me:

13/16 Bayonet Standard Mesh Basket
1.05 Bayonet Standard Mesh Basket
1.05 Bayonet Fine Slot Mesh Basket

Which will work with that resin(c-249) and which will fit the riser in the 5600sxt control?

No need to worry OK...?

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 3:05PM
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justalurker

C-249 is standard mesh resin, what do you think?

You have now used up your allotment of free advice... I require a PO for further consultation.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 3:14PM
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jimbochap

Little confused now, the baskets I mentioned above don't have openings on both ends like your picture above, so I think the ones I mentioned were the wrong ones anyway, the ones I mentioned looked like they just attached to the riser tube and NOT to both the control and riser tube. I hope when I order over the phone they know what I'm talking about if not I will buy elsewhere.

Justalurker,
Thanks so much for your time and knowledge on this matter, you are the best.

PO? Where to?

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 5:07PM
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justalurker

Jimbo,

"Tell whoever you're ordering the softener from you want a top basket, a Noryl bypass (not the SS one), and the Noryl 3/4" male NPT yoke. I would also want a gravel underbed even though some dealers say it isn't necessary in a 1.5 cu ft softener".

If you've shopped the net for the absolute cheapest price then you'll be getting the absolute poorest service... even when you order. If they don't know what you want then say thank you, hang up, and call someone who does.

It's a good thing for you that one of us knows what we're doing.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 5:24PM
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jimbochap

Justalurker, you said
"If you've shopped the net for the absolute cheapest price then you'll be getting the absolute poorest service... even when you order. If they don't know what you want then say thank you, hang up, and call someone who does.

It's a good thing for you that one of us knows what we're doing."

That's what I plan on doing, if the salesman is unsure of what I am asking him about, I will hangup and call another company and spend my money elsewhere.

It is a very good thing one us knows what we are doing here. Can I have your phone number? lol

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 8:47PM
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justalurker

We'll both be happier if you take your business elsewhere.

    Bookmark   September 19, 2010 at 8:54PM
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jimbochap

Justalurker,

When using the top basket do I need a different length riser tube then the standard one for a 54 inch tank? They appear to come in 4 lengths, 43 5/8, 48 1/8, 53 1/2 or 54 inches?
I'm sure this is a dumb question, is there also a bottom basket that I will need for my set up?

    Bookmark   September 20, 2010 at 7:56AM
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justalurker

The drop shipper who serves the place you buy from will know what you need.

    Bookmark   September 20, 2010 at 9:46AM
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jimbochap

I don't understand, can you repeat that? LOL

    Bookmark   September 20, 2010 at 10:02AM
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justalurker

The drop shipper who serves the place you buy from will know what you need.

    Bookmark   September 20, 2010 at 10:19AM
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jimbochap

Okay I ordered it.

Everything was fine except he said I didn't need both the The Noryl bypass and the Noryl 3/4" male threaded yoke. He said it was just another place to leak. He is sending both though.

He explained about the baskets, one on the bottom of the riser tube and one on the top just like you told me about, he said it kind of twists inside the valve and locks.

The only extra I was charged was for the Noryl Bypass, no charge for the upper collector basket or the Gravel underbed. He said my size tank took 15 pounds, is that correct? Will that make a difference how much resin I put in it?

Additional Charges:
Res-Care Feeder & 1 Gallon Res Care
C-249 Resin
Noryl By-Pass

Total Delivered to the Door
$645.00

Thanks for your help Justalurker :)

    Bookmark   September 20, 2010 at 3:25PM
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jimbochap

Noryl bypass and the Noryl 3/4" male threaded yoke which both have the 0-rings, once you slide them on and then tighten up the screws on the silver clamp like thing.

Nothing really looks like it draws the bypass to the valve or the male threaded yoke to the valve? Do these often leak? if so what can be done to correct the problem.

Haven't installed it yet just want to be prepared?

Anyone dealt with this bypass or yoke connection? Is it water pressure tight?

    Bookmark   October 18, 2010 at 6:54PM
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justalurker

No Jim, they're not water tight. The millions and millions of Fleck valves with Noryl yokes all leak... NOT.

You're thinking too much, again, some more.

If you use a light coat of food grade silicon grease the water pressure will seal the O rings radially (axially) not by squishing them.

    Bookmark   October 18, 2010 at 7:08PM
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jimbochap

Ok, tomorrow is the install, will let you know how it turns out tomorrow night.

Thanks for your help

    Bookmark   October 18, 2010 at 8:02PM
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jimbochap

One more thing, When Programming the Fleck Meter 5600sxt Meter Valve.

Hardeness is 7 Grains

Iron 0.38 mg/L and it says to Multiply by 5 and I get 1.9,

When setting the Hardness when I program it should I set it at 9 or do you suggest I go a little higher then that.

    Bookmark   October 18, 2010 at 8:31PM
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justalurker

Hardness in gpg + ((iron ppm or mg/l * 4) + (manganese ppm or mg/l *2)) = compensated hardness (round up to next higher gpg).

    Bookmark   October 18, 2010 at 8:58PM
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jimbochap

7 + (0.38*4=1.52)+(.025*2=.05)= 8.57

Looks like I'm setting it at 9

Thank you

    Bookmark   October 18, 2010 at 9:58PM
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jimbochap

7 + (0.38*4=1.52)+(.025*2=.05)= 8.57

Looks like I'm setting it at 9

Thank you

    Bookmark   October 18, 2010 at 10:01PM
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jimbochap

Well installed it a week late but finally installed it myself today.

Had one problem with one of the O-rings leaking on the side of the Bypass that connect to the control. To get it up and running today since I didn't have another O-ring, to take off the Bypass and just connect the Control right to the male threaded yoke.

Everything else worked fine, Programmed the Softner and Carbon Unit.

I have contacted who I bought ther units from and the Bypass and they will ship me out another O-ring.

I just have to drain down the system and re-install the bypass. I guess I just have to be careful when I pull the control from the Male Adapter.(There was alot of pressure there when I took off the bypass today)

Once I get the new O-ring and get it all completed I will post some pictures.

Thanks again Everyone for your help

    Bookmark   October 26, 2010 at 7:54PM
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justalurker

It's east to cut the o-ring during assembly if you're not careful. Throw the old o-ring away and use some food grade silicon grease on the new o-ring and slide the two parts together carefully.

They are standard size o-rings and can be had at a well stocked hardware store. Take your new one and get some spares before you install it.

    Bookmark   October 26, 2010 at 8:05PM
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jimbochap

Recieved the New O-ring and installed the bypass again, no leaks this time :)

Everything is running great.

Here is how I installed it and the pictures I promised.Copy and paste the link below to see the pictures.

http://home-and-garden.webshots.com/album/578993030mtPuhg

Thanks again Justlurker and others for all your help.

    Bookmark   November 11, 2010 at 9:10PM
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justalurker

Sano job and color coordinated too!

    Bookmark   November 11, 2010 at 9:40PM
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jimbochap

Yes, With those blue tanks it does look pretty awesome!

That HPVC pipe and fittings was really easy to work with and I only had to sweat on one copper fitting for the whole job. Those fittings(adapters) from copper to plastic are amazing.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2010 at 7:23AM
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justalurker

Those plastic ball valves do have a tendency to seize though...

    Bookmark   November 12, 2010 at 9:07AM
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jimbochap

Looked at the copper valves but when opening them and looking through them the opening seem to be only about a 1/2 inch, didn't want to restrict the flow of water the plastic ball valves when open still had a 3/4 inch opening which I liked.

I guess if I ever run into a problem with them I will just cut them off and change them.

    Bookmark   November 12, 2010 at 9:11PM
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justalurker

Yea, I've seen the 3/4" ball valves with the choked down 1/2" bore. You have to go to another supplier for the valves that are correct 3/4" bore all the way through. There's more than one store that sells ball valves.

But, you also have the Fleck Noryl bypass if you need it. Sure was smart of you to get them... huh Jimbo?

    Bookmark   November 12, 2010 at 10:17PM
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jimbochap

Just wanted to post an update:

Had a very small leak on one of the drain lines, not a big deal just cutted off about an inch of the plastic line and reattached it. No leaks now!

Carbon system regenates every 3 days and the water softner regenates by usage of gallons used or a 14 day overide.

Love the the results.

    Bookmark   November 22, 2010 at 7:59PM
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justalurker

How often does the softener regenerate now?

14 days between regenerations will compromise resin life especially with iron.

Calendar day override at 6 or 7 days is optimum.

What did you set the control valve at...

Compensated hardness set @ 9 right?

1.5 cubes of resin set at what hardness removal capacity?

Salt dose at how many pounds?

    Bookmark   November 22, 2010 at 8:25PM
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jimbochap

Seems to regenerate every 14 days because we haven't hit the water usage gallons yet.

I thought with my iron which really isn't that high..0.38 mg/L even the override at 14 days would be okay.

I'm not sure what you mean by what did I set control value, went by the instructions step by step. Most of the values were pretty much preset, Here is a link to the step by step directions for setting up the control.

http://www.qualitywaterforless.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/fleck/56sxtins.pdf

Compensated hardenes is set at 9, that is correct.

Not sure if you can tell by the step by step directions what the salt dose is, many you can tell by looking at that.

I just thought going by the step by step directions that salt dose on how many pounds would be correct. Can you tell by looking at the link above. Pretty much followed that except put in 48,000 Grain Capacity instead of the 32, 000 value they had in directions because my tank is 1.5

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 7:12PM
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justalurker

Based on your water conditions and 3 people you bought too large a softener and you have it set wrong and for poor efficiency.

Nice pictures in that installation PDF and grossly incorrect numbers for setting the control valve parameters. Wasting salt and water BIG TIME.

14 days between regenerations is bad without iron and with any iron at all REALLY bad for the resin and will shorten the resin life.

You'll also most likely have channeling problems.

You are another victim of an online softener seller who knows more about selling than the product they're selling.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 7:29PM
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jimbochap

Anyway to make some corrections with my current size unit to make it more efficient?

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 8:02PM
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justalurker

Yes, the softener can be set up correctly for efficiency and more frequent regenerations, but that will not overcome the fact that the softener is too large.

You may have channeling problems due to low volume flow through the 1,5 cu ft resin bed. You'll have to monitor the hardness as the softener approaches regeneration to make sure the hardness never leaks through and do that on a regular basis. Go shopping for a big bottle of hardness test strips.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 8:21PM
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jimbochap

So for now just monitor the hardness with test strips about once every 4 days and then get back to you with the information and then decide which settings need to be changed?
Is that what you are suggesting for now?

That's strange that you are saying that the tank is to large because even the water softner company that I did have out to the house originally wanted to put in the same size 1.5 tank.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 8:52PM
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justalurker

"So for now just monitor the hardness with test strips about once every 4 days and then get back to you with the information and then decide which settings need to be changed?

Is that what you are suggesting for now?"

No, the softener needs to have the settings corrected and then the hardness monitored near regeneration to see if there leak through which will indicate channeling... as I said in my previous post.

You found two companies that don't know how to size a softener. They are both wrong... with your water conditions you should have a 1 cu ft softener. Setting the size aside for a moment your softener is set up wrong... and too large.

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 9:12PM
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jimbochap

okay, I understand now, you saw all the settings in the pdf file, if you could guide me through all the settings and tell me what they should be changed to, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks Justalurker

    Bookmark   November 23, 2010 at 9:46PM
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justalurker

Look on the control valve in the area where the brine line connects to it (over, under sideways, down) for a sticker that says BLFC. The sticker should say either .25 or .50 or 1.0.

I need to know that in order to give you the correct settings.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2010 at 11:09AM
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jimbochap

.50

Thanks

    Bookmark   November 24, 2010 at 11:41AM
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jimbochap

One more thing I would like to add before we go further, I don't really believe the internet guy I bought the tank with really had any effect on the size of the tank I wanted, the size of the tank was based on what the first guy that came out to the house told me.

Its about a 50 year old shallow well hookup well and from working in this area he believes my well might not last as long as the tank so he suggested the 1.5 in thinking not to long from now I will need a new well drilled that will be a deep well where the water conditions will be alot worse then I have now.

Hope that clears some things up and you understand.

That is why the unit might be oversized for now but not for the life of the unit.

With your help with the new settings for my conditions now as long as we don't have channeling problems hopefully we will be okay.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2010 at 12:02PM
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justalurker

C / 19.2
H / 9
SF / 20
DO / 7
BF / 4 = 2 gallons of water = 6 lbs of salt

If you had the softener set according to the seller at BF / 10 for 32k you were using 15 pounds of salt. If you had the softener set according to the seller at BF / 12 for 48k you were using 18 pounds lbs of salt.

Bear in mind that these settings are making the best of a bad situation and will not overcome the problems of too large a softener.

Get hardness test strips and test the softened water as close to regeneration as possible every cycle. As long as the water stays 0 hard to regeneration you're OK. It will take a while for channeling to occur and when it does you'll see the soft water go hard before regeneration.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2010 at 12:15PM
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jimbochap

Will I be able to set the Capacity at a point number(.2) or should I just put it at 19?

The BF above you stated is BD in the the directions right?(Brine refill cycle)

Thanks for all your help, I'll give it a shot and check the hardness every so often.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2010 at 12:30PM
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justalurker

The manual seems like a TYPO... BD should be BF (brine refill).

IIRC you can set a decimal for C but it really doesn't matter in your case. If there's no decimal then 19 is OK.

You don't need to check the hardness every so often.

READ THIS CAREFULLY... "Get hardness test strips and test the softened water as close to regeneration as possible every cycle. As long as the water stays 0 hard to regeneration you're OK. It will take a while for channeling to occur and when it does you'll see the soft water go hard before regeneration".

    Bookmark   November 24, 2010 at 12:40PM
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justalurker

Look at the pictures in the installation guide. You can clearly see that when they discuss BRINE REFILL and say BD that the display clearly shows BF for BRINE REFILL.

    Bookmark   November 24, 2010 at 12:46PM
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jimbochap

Okay, made the changes, no point value, just made it 19. Changed all others as directed, BD was BF on the control.

Water usage is now 1689 gallons or 7 days which every comes first. 3 people in the house , that would average out to about 80 gallons per person.

I will get Hardness Test Strips and check just before regenation on the 7th day or when I see the water usage meter getting near zero.

If channeling does occur down the road then what are my options to correcting it? New Resin?

    Bookmark   November 25, 2010 at 9:26AM
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justalurker

When channeling occurs you either have to get a correctly sized softener, get more people in the house (5 should be right), get much harder water, or dramatically increase your water use.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2010 at 9:56AM
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justalurker

Jim,

Going back to a previous post of yours...

"One more thing I would like to add before we go further, I don't really believe the internet guy I bought the tank with really had any effect on the size of the tank I wanted, the size of the tank was based on what the first guy that came out to the house told me.

Its about a 50 year old shallow well hookup well and from working in this area he believes my well might not last as long as the tank so he suggested the 1.5 in thinking not to long from now I will need a new well drilled that will be a deep well where the water conditions will be a lot worse then I have now.

Hope that clears some things up and you understand.

That is why the unit might be oversized for now but not for the life of the unit".

Water treatment, softening in specific, is chemistry, physics, and arithmetic... nothing more and nothing less. A correctly sized softener is based on specific water test results, water usage, and hardness removal capacity and calculated for an exact solution. There is no latitude that allows for over-sizing. There is a correctly sized softener and no other size softener will perform with efficiency and competence and not introduce side effects.

A correctly sized softener that is subsequently faced with changed water conditions or higher water usage will simply regenerate more often, BUT still regenerate with salt efficiency and make the resin's life as smooth and easy as can be. If your water conditions change DRAMATICALLY then the cost of a new tank and resin will be pennies compared to the cost of a new well. In the meantime you'd have wasted enough money at the seller's salt setting to pay for a new (correctly sized for the new water conditions) softener if you needed one.

Your (too large) softener is not operating at the efficiency that a correctly sized softener would and channeling and resin problems are problems that shouldn't even be possibilities but are now based on your sizing decision.

Keep watching for hardness leak through (just before regen) and let us know how things go down the road.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2010 at 4:26PM
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jimbochap

I guess down the road if I should really come into a problem is to buy right size tank with new resin and use the fleck control I already have

I will keep an eye on it see how things go.

Thanks again for all your help.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2010 at 5:50PM
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justalurker

To change your 1.5 cuber to a 1 cuber you'd need a 9x48 tank. Same control valve. Same brine tank.

You'd shorten the distributor tube you have or get a new one (with bottom basket) for a 9x48 tank, reuse 2/3 of the resin you have (2/3 of 1.5 cube = 1 cube), and reuse the gravel.

A little work on your part and readjusting your plumbing for the lower control valve height.

Then you'd be right on the money... after resetting the SXT.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2010 at 7:11PM
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jimbochap

http://www.discountwatersofteners.com/Enpress-Composite-Resin-Tank-s/77.htm $119 for the tank

Do they sell those Distributor tube with the bottom basket to fit that same control value perfectly without cutting them? If I ever have to do it I would want to make sure it's a perfect fit.

Whats the best way to get the gravel and resin out of the existing tank. I would think some kind of screen system and running a garden hose in the tank and catching the resin in a screen of somekind. I'm sure it's not easy considering how heavy the tank is.

Re-plumbing it wouldn't be a problem.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2010 at 8:41PM
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justalurker

I prefer a Structural brand tank over an Enpress brand.

I'm sure the seller would sell a 9x48 tank along with the correct distributor tube with bottom basket already glued on.

The tube diameter is common to lots of Fleck and other brand control valves and EZ to cut so you could use your old one if you cut it.

    Bookmark   November 25, 2010 at 9:47PM
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